How to deal with manipulative coworker

[tszaboo]

In the past 1 month at my work I have been subjected to to events turning from good to the worst, all due to a manipulative coworker, who has been at the company for about 10 months. It all started with him talking to management, that we need a structural change. Management came back with the idea, that I would be placed as head of hardware, while he would be responsible for firmware, we should come up with a plan, and discuss in a few weeks. This is when the attacks started.
- First the two of us sit down, and had calm and reasonable conversations for hours about the planning. He was non confrontational, friendly, cooperative.
- Then, they singled out a snarky comment (to management) I made against someone else and turned into a full blown deal, where I have personally attacked them, and created a toxic work environment. I've talked to the guy to whom I made the comment, apologized, and he didn't mind it in the first place.
- He recruited to his cause another firmware engineer who just introduced that he is leaving the company, and apparently named one of the reason for leaving is me.
- He told management that I was disrespecting them behind their backs. No specifics.
- After this I had to sit down with management, they are informed me about this and told me that my behavior is unacceptable, listing what I did. I felt like I was gaslighted.
- Few weeks passed, I did the benefit of the doubt that it was a one time event. Cooperated with him planning the new procedures about the engineering team.
- I had to whistle blow. Found a nonconformity with a production batch, that will cost the company reputation and a lot of money to fix. I escalated the issue internally. Recall, informing a Notified Body, investigation what happened.
- Then yesterday, he singled out a meeting from a few weeks ago. I told to the meeting attendees that some technical aspect for a new product has to be in a certain way, because we certified it that way. Recertification would be to lengthy and expensive, and we wouldn't be able to fulfill the lead time for the customer. You know just stating facts. This was presented that I'm non-cooperating, I raised my voice (I didn't) and acted threatening way (I didn't). He told the event to management right in front of me, deliberately left out that I was stating the issue due to the certification, which was a blatant lie. Management told me that it was the last straw, I cannot do teamwork.
- He told management right in front of me, that the original talks about the promotion of the two of us, I was non cooperative, non-constructive. They withdraw their proposal for promotion, now I'm reporting to my manipulative college, who is now head of engineering, effective immediately.
- I couldn't defend myself on this meeting yesterday, because apparently I'm too daft to even see what's happening. Which was more gaslighting.
- He needs to be on meeting with him and tell me when I'm difficult, because that's the only way.
- Apparently now I cannot even be trusted with phone calls to external parties, where one of my managers needs to sit in.
- And I'm on official notice probation.

I'm not prepared for the type of person, who smiles when having a talk with you, and then turns around and lies to management about the same event. I feel like a fool for not seeing this earlier. Now I have to report to him, so all he needs to do to get rid of me, is lie a few times that I'm difficult and I'm fired. I think that's his next move. I don't know how to trust any conversation with my direct boss now, because he has been using lies, omissions and blowing things out of proportions, against me.
On the other hand, there is no replacement for me at the company, and it would cost them seriously a lot of opportunity cost to let me go. That's probably the only reason I'm still there. And maybe because they know I could sue them for wrongful termination, due to the whistle blowing.

[pcprogrammer]

Sounds like a very bad situation with no escape. Don't know what your job skills are and how the current situation in the Netherlands is work wise, but I would start looking for another job.

These kind of backstabbing assholes are very hard to beat, and unless you have strong evidence of what he did or is doing, you won't be able to take him down. It is certainly a shame that these kind of things happen.

Hope you find a way out of it.

[HighVoltage]

I think the only way for you to get ahead is to let it go and find a new place where your skills are appreciated.

Every serious company in Europe is looking for skillful people right now, on all levels. It should be easy for you to find a new job.

[Fraser]

I am so sorry to read the OP’s story. The new person appears to be a sociopath and I do not use that term lightly.

I see two options for the OP….

1. Write a formal letter to senior management at the company that details the facts of the situation from your perspective and keep it very neutral to avoid accusations of ‘retaliatory behaviour’. Detail how your job has been changed and it’s effect on production. State clearly that you believe you are being victimised in an effort to either remove you from the company or the other party has a hidden agenda not yet revealed. State clearly that this situation is both unfair to you and will inevitably lead to your departure from the company after X years of trouble free service to your employer. Remember, write such a letter in a cool and concise manner devoid of emotional wording. If that letters contents are not taken seriously, at least it is a formal record that may be presented if you end up at a tribunal. Do NOT be drawn into verbal meetings that are not fully minuted for the official record ! People love to manipulate in a manner where no formal record of events are kept.

2. Leave the company and find a company more deserving of your skills. However this is not an easy option so I would exhaust the available defence avenues within your current company. There is the serious issue of a potential new employer contacting your current employer and hearing an unfair and inaccurate description of your performance and personality.

I think it is time to get the big guns out and request a formal investigation by a member of senior management into what is happening in the company within your area. If the offending party is a Sociopath with an agenda, you will not be able to defend yourself against them and your personal well-being will be harmed.

You may wish to contact an independent employment advisor to gain the exact information needed to progress this matter in a way that cannot be brushed off or that makes matters worse for you. Also, remember, if possible, do not leave one job without actually having another confirmed ! It is a stronger position when looking for a new job.

Take care and get the good advice that you clearly need from a professional as many of us on this forum have our own views and ways of dealing with such a situation, but such advice does not necessarily provide you with the best action plan. Bullying in the workplace is taken very seriously these days, if your Nemisis is a Sociopathic Bully, they will be clever and require careful handling !

All the Best

Fraser

[jpanhalt]

That's not really a question if you are "on official notice."

1) Be sure the non-compliance is documented and try to keep copies of that at home (if it's not too late).  NDA's can be threatened but cannot be used to cover up serious misdeeds that may present a public danger or are illegal.  More likely, if that non-compliance does cause a problem, you will be blamed for it.  Documents from the company are great, but your own contemporaneous notes can also have weight.

2) Finding another position is probably the only way out.

3) Official notice may mean you are terminated at some future date (e.g., end of current project) or on some sort of probation.  Generally, companies are more concerned about employee sabotage than losing a few weeks salary, so a 2-week notice may mean leave right now and get two weeks of salary.  If it is probation, it may be worthwhile meeting with senior management and negotiating severance.  Companies have a strong interest in avoiding wrongful discharge lawsuits in the US.  Common severance is one month's current salary per year of employment up to some max. 

4) It may be helpful to have an agreed upon recommendation by the company written before you leave.  Every future employer should know that letter doesn't give the whole story, but having it may help prevent later retaliation.

5) When you leave, don't make a mess or a scene.  Just give notice (if required) and leave.  If notice isn't required, resign as soon as practical from your perspective.  Aside from the notes mentioned in #1, do not do anything that smells of undermining the company. 

[tszaboo]

I think it is time to get the big guns out and request a formal investigation by a member of senior management into what is happening in the company within your area. If the offending party is a Sociopath with an agenda, you will not be able to defend yourself against them and your personal well-being will be harmed.

Thanks Fraser. Not really an option, I work in a smaller company. When I talked about management, I had my immediate report and the CEO talking to me. "We would like to keep you, but..."

Sounds like a very bad situation with no escape. Don't know what your job skills are and how the current situation in the Netherlands is work wise, but I would start looking for another job.

Deep down, I was aware that it's a toxic management company. I kinda got used to it over the years. I had 6 manager in the past 5 years, they were coming and going. Each one with different requirements on Project management tools, one wanted constant booking of hours, the other was the CEO himself, who was managing us without being in the office for a full day in a week, and not responding to emails.

That's not really a question if you are "on official notice."

On the notice, meaning that if they see the continuation of this imaginary pattern of behavior then they can fire me.
I keep track of the events. They cannot make me the scapegoat legally, since someone else is the EX responsible person in the company. Doesn't mean they would not just shoot the messenger. Or because I have the technical expertise. I looked up, there are new laws from 2016 protecting whistleblowers, they are very much on the employees side. But then I would be just stuck in a job in a small company where they don't like me.

I think the only way for you to get ahead is to let it go and find a new place where your skills are appreciated.

Every serious company in Europe is looking for skillful people right now, on all levels. It should be easy for you to find a new job.

It's hurting because the job is walking distance from home, the expertise I gained over the year is very specialized and the compensation is quite good.

[golden_labels]

If you can’t be an asshole yourself — and I do not recommend that if you have no prior experience — IMO you have little chances against such people.

The things you can do:

• If you have a family, do not neglect that part of your life. Consider caring even more than usual and be open about what is going on. The situation is not only very bad for your mental health, but you are being trapped in a perception that will make it hard to deal with the problem. Talk with friends and spend time with them. I can’t find words to tell how important that part is.
• Document your own work in every detail. If you can have witnesses you did your work right, have them. That is to secure your own ass.
• Make collegues value you as much as possible. It really looks different: 1 bad opinion vs nothing, and 1 bad opinion vs 20 good opinions.
• If there is such an option, ask management for advice in this case. I emphasize: advice. Do not point to a specific person, do not accuse them, use tone that does not blatantly suggest this is an ongoing situation, but make sure you put a part of responsibility on someone above both of you by asking what is company’s policy in this case.

[tggzzz]

It's hurting because the job is walking distance from home, the expertise I gained over the year is very specialized and the compensation is quite good.

That's the devil's bargain you make in small companies where you become an expert in a narrow field. The alternative, being a jack of all trades, has different tradeoffs.

You have my sympathy, which is worth precisely what you paid for it

Many good points in this thread, and no insane points.

From a distance it sounds like you have to armour-plate your back while finding an escape route. Document everything in writing, including emails stating "this is my notes on the conversation we've just had; please let me know if I have misunderstood something". Keep an independent record of those emails, including headers making it difficult for people to deny their existence.

At some point it may be necessary to "point a gun" at somebody's head, but you must be able and willing to pull the trigger. Even if you don't pull the trigger, the atmosphere will be poisionous afterwards.

It is a small world, and you can be badmouthed behind your back to other companies without being able to do anything about it, and maybe not realising it is happening. Only courses of action are to get out before things reach that stage, or to use the courts.

Good luck; while change can be uncomfortable, often there are some benefits. "Every black cloud has a silver lining", and all that.

[wn1fju]

In all jobs, you are going to find people that are smarter than you and people that are dumber than you, people that are nicer than you and people that are nastier than you.  That's what makes the world go around.  But sometimes, a graceful exit is really the best option.

In my (last) job, we recently got a new boss.  One day he called me into his office to chastise me for some trivial thing I did wrong.  In the process,
he blurted out that I "had a reputation for being unprofessional," and then he accused me of sexually harassing a female co-worker.

I was close to retirement age and was planning to work for about one more year, but the next day I handed in my retirement/resignation notice.  There was no reason to remain in what was surely going to be a toxic work environment for me.  My only regret is that I didn't file a complaint or pursue legal action against the new boss.

[Fraser]

So you have been at this company only a year ?

Run, do not walk, RUN to the exit door ! Such a poorly managed company will eventually destroy your health and happiness. With only a year invested in the company you really should look for a better employer. I am 55 and spent all my working life with one employer who was fair to its staff and offered good support when needed. Do not spend another year of your life with a company that does not deserve you. Start working on an exit strategy. If a potential employer asks why you are leaving your current employer you can be quite honest and say that your current employer did not deal with a bullying situation so you now want to join a better employer ! No shame in admitting you were effectively bullied and most employers respect those who actively pursue a better job rather than tolerate bullying.

Fraser

[tszaboo]

So you have been at this company only a year ?

Run, do not walk, RUN to the exit door ! Such a poorly managed company will eventually destroy your health and happiness. With only a year invested in the company you really should look for a better employer. I am 55 and spent all my working life with one employer who was fair to its staff and offered good support when needed. Do not spend another year of your life with a company that does not deserve you. Start working on an exit strategy. If a potential employer asks why you are leaving your current employer you can be quite honest and say that your current employer did not deal with a bullying situation so you now want to join a better employer ! No shame in admitting you were effectively bullied and most employers respect those who actively pursue a better job than tolerate bullying.

Fraser

Five years, give or take. It was very high turnaround in the engineering team in the meanwhile.

[jpanhalt]

That's not really a question if you are "on official notice."

On the notice, meaning that if they see the continuation of this imaginary pattern of behavior then they can fire me.
I keep track of the events. They cannot make me the scapegoat legally, since someone else is the EX responsible person in the company. Doesn't mean they would not just shoot the messenger. Or because I have the technical expertise. I looked up, there are new laws from 2016 protecting whistleblowers, they are very much on the employees side. But then I would be just stuck in a job in a small company where they don't like me.

[/quote]

That situation equates to "probation."  Regardless of how long you stay, you have been overlooked for promotion and that will haunt you.   You are on your way out.  The best you can do is try to negotiate a smooth exit and minimize animosity.  In the US, whistle blowing is highly technical.  It can be difficult to prove.  That option would not be very high on my list.  If that is what you're left with, be sure to consult with someone knowledgeable about what's required. 

[Fraser]

tszaboo,

Ask yourself one very important question…… can you see yourself being happy in the current company in the foreseeable future ? If not, that job will damage your long term health. Your priority should be to protect yourself from a toxic work environment and if that means moving to a new employer who will value you, then that is the way forward. Do not make excuses to yourself that you will weather the storm, or things might get better. They already sound irrecoverable to me. That co-worker got what they wanted and will make your life a living hell. Sociopaths are a nightmare to work with.

Your challenge now is to negotiate your departure such that your present employer holds no grudge and provides a good reference in return for your making it easy for them to part ways with you. Their loss and they will likely regret taking on a sociopath like your colleague as he will, no doubt, wreak havoc throughout the small company over the coming months.

It sounds harsh but it is time to pull up your big boys trousers and plan your exit rather than ask a forum to help deal with a situation that only you truly understand and have the power to change in your favour.

Fraser

[Squarewave]

That sounds incredibly stressful. Hope it's all sorted out!

[Fraser]

This article may be worth a read as you may recognise the detailed behaviour in your colleague……..

https://www.healthline.com/health/mental-health/sociopath

Fraser

[tszaboo]

This article may be worth a read as you may recognise the detailed behaviour in your colleague……..

https://www.healthline.com/health/mental-health/sociopath

Fraser

I read quite a lot about the dark triad, after encountering a narcissist at work.
That was equally destructive, and people either left or they refused to work with him.
Also had colleague with Bipolar (told me). Honestly, I find it important to be prepared to people with mental illnesses, they can wreak havoc in your life.

On the other hand, I don't consider myself qualified to diagnose people with the DSM5. I don't think that my brand new boss qualifies as one TBH. Probably just super competitive. I was checking his Linkedin though, doesn't seem to stay at the same company for two years, usually less than 1, might be a red flag.

[HuronKing]

On the other hand, there is no replacement for me at the company, and it would cost them seriously a lot of opportunity cost to let me go. That's probably the only reason I'm still there. And maybe because they know I could sue them for wrongful termination, due to the whistle blowing.

This sounds like their problem - not yours.

I personally wouldn't bank anything on a whistle blowing allegation. Your mental health is crucial as well as working in an environment where you can trust and are trusted by your colleagues. I worked at an engineering firm for 3 months and ran away when they threatened early termination during my probation period because I suggested actually reporting to the president all these problems everyone around me was constantly bitching about never getting fixed... but not ever reporting it to the president.

I then went back to my old job at my old company for the same salary (lower than what I got at the new firm) but within a few weeks I was promoted and got a industry rate compensation adjustment... in fact all the things I had asked for to stay. And things are now really great here again.

I found out a year later that nearly all the managers at the company had been fired or quit, most of the engineering staff too, and my position which was newly created would've been prematurely terminated before the end of the probation period to be subsumed into another department. I didn't dodge a bullet - I dodged a howitzer shell...

The lesson I learned is never be afraid to quit when your gut is telling you to do that. This is a new age of corporate satisfaction and these old toxic ways of doing business just won't cut it anymore. Power to the workers! 

[tggzzz]

...
I then went back to my old job at my old company for the same salary (lower than what I got at the new firm) but within a few weeks I was promoted and got a industry rate compensation adjustment... in fact all the things I had asked for to stay. And things are now really great here again.
...

That's unusual. "Going back" is usually a mistake. because all that happens is everybody remembers why you left.

[capt bullshot]

I think the only way for you to get ahead is to let it go and find a new place where your skills are appreciated.

Every serious company in Europe is looking for skillful people right now, on all levels. It should be easy for you to find a new job.

Beware, most job ads lie about the real requirements.

I left my former job, motivated by the chance to leave the "bore-out" situation I was caught in. New job was advertised with required skills that I could easily provide, a good match to my experience, and some interesting new projects involving (for them) new technology. Job interview was promising for both sides.

In reality you're expected to have perfect skills to operate SAP and other "enterprise tools" (which I don't have at all, and no one tells you more than maybe twice how to do that - then they'll get annoyed, no training for the essential stuff at all, but a lot of "shiny" onboarding, mandatory trainings that totally miss your point, ...). I ran into a situation that ended up with some person slamming on me during a regular meeting - because no one could be bothered to tell me how to do certain things the right way before I did this particular mistake. This event threatened my job there, took me a lot of effort and pain to manoeuvre out again. While I'm there, quite a few people left that company. In my department, one can feel discontentedness all over the place, IMO caused by management decisions.

Your situation looks even worse, so IMO it would be the best choice to leave. But don't expect too much from your next job. The corporate world has turned into a bureaucratic shit show.

[HuronKing]

...
I then went back to my old job at my old company for the same salary (lower than what I got at the new firm) but within a few weeks I was promoted and got a industry rate compensation adjustment... in fact all the things I had asked for to stay. And things are now really great here again.
...

That's unusual. "Going back" is usually a mistake. because all that happens is everybody remembers why you left.

I left because I was furloughed with no known return-to-work date because of the pandemic. I tried to negotiate for promises for the future to stay on-staff and wait out the pandemic but the difference in compensation between my old job and the new (toxic I was to discover) job was too great to pass up.

I honestly loved my old job and I'm glad to be back doing it at a higher title and with more responsibility. I didn't want to leave and none of the people I worked for wanted me to leave either. So yes, my story is unusual. But, coming back to my personal life lesson, I had to follow my gut to leave my old job (I was concerned about falling behind in my career development the longer I was on furlough and the fact my compensation was not commensurate to industry rates) and I also followed my gut to quit the toxic job and go back to my old job.

It worked out for me because corporate HR everywhere has structured itself to punish company loyalty and incentivize jumping ships - even if you like where you work. Even my coworkers told me throughout my mentorship period that the way to get ahead at my job was to work for a few years, leave and come back. But, I never wanted to do that because I never knew when the 'right time' would be to do what I felt was a very cynical mercenary maneuver.

Life circumstances kinda compelled it to happen this particular way and for me it worked out.

I say we evolved survival instincts and bullshit detectors for a reason - to sense danger and toxicity and to flee to more fertile plains. You might even return to the original plains when the toxic period is over. 

[nctnico]

On the other hand, there is no replacement for me at the company, and it would cost them seriously a lot of opportunity cost to let me go. That's probably the only reason I'm still there. And maybe because they know I could sue them for wrongful termination, due to the whistle blowing.

This sounds like their problem - not yours.

The lesson I learned is never be afraid to quit when your gut is telling you to do that. This is a new age of corporate satisfaction and these old toxic ways of doing business just won't cut it anymore. Power to the workers! 

I agree.  @tszaboo: Hand in your resignation letter tomorrow stating that you don't want to work with or for someone who is making you look bad. Hence you'll be leaving. See how that plays out.

Personally I would not even bother staying at such a company. Too much hassle with office politics and by what you write it looks like there will be no end to it anyway

[fourfathom]

Quit nicely, but quit.  Give reasonable notice if you like, but putting you on probation cancels any obligation you feel to the company.  In the USA most companies will not give a negative reference (due to legal risk), but may implicitly damn you with faint praise.  You can't do much about that, except be honest and try not to emphasize all the psychological pathology -- doing so makes you look like it was actually your fault.  Demonstrate a positive attitude.  Even if you've specialized, that is built on a broad foundation and you can use this to demonstrate skill, smarts, and attitude.

And be honest with yourself.  Are you 100% sure you didn't contribute to this problem?  I will assume you didn't, but if there's room for improvement then do work on it.  None of us like to feel less than perfect, but we are all human.

[tszaboo]

And be honest with yourself.  Are you 100% sure you didn't contribute to this problem?  I will assume you didn't, but if there's room for improvement then do work on it.  None of us like to feel less than perfect, but we are all human.

I have a somewhat assertive personality, who also doesn't shy away from confrontation. I'm also not a people pleaser, but "get the job done" guy. Which of course you can spin around, and say that it's impossible to have teamwork with me, and I'm intimidating people to do what I want. So 100% sure? No, probably on some level some people dislike me because of this. It's also not the Dutch way.

I agree.  @tszaboo: Hand in your resignation letter tomorrow stating that you don't want to work with or for someone who is making you look bad. Hence you'll be leaving. See how that plays out.

Personally I would not even bother staying at such a company. Too much hassle with office politics and by what you write it looks like there will be no end to it anyway

I don't want to do that without plan B. I don't think that would achieve anything, because I saw that it didn't in the past. We don't have a dedicated HR person who would be able to do anything about this as well.

[HuronKing]

My great-grandfather used to say:
"It's easier to find a job when you have a job."

Find that other job first but find it now. 

[james_s]

Gaslighting and manipulation are some of the classic symptoms of a personality disorder such as NPD. These people never change, although sooner or later others usually start to notice their behavioral patterns. Document everything, keep notes and screenshots of any chat or email messages, bring up the issue with your manager and generally try to avoid interacting with the person as much as possible. If it gets bad enough it may be easiest to just find another job.

[pcprogrammer]

It's also not the Dutch way.

What is the Dutch way? I guess the guy who is stabbing you in the back is Dutch. Is that the Dutch way? Don't forget there are assholes in every culture.

Best to be true to your self. Open up the job pages and see if there is some other job for you, even if that means a bit more travel back and forth. Your health will benefit from it, and your next job does not have to be the perfect and forever one. See it as a stepping stone to get away from the toxic environment you seem to be in now.

[nctnico]

I agree.  @tszaboo: Hand in your resignation letter tomorrow stating that you don't want to work with or for someone who is making you look bad. Hence you'll be leaving. See how that plays out.

Personally I would not even bother staying at such a company. Too much hassle with office politics and by what you write it looks like there will be no end to it anyway

I don't want to do that without plan B. I don't think that would achieve anything, because I saw that it didn't in the past. We don't have a dedicated HR person who would be able to do anything about this as well.

Plan B is to get another job and I agree with what HuronKing wrote.

Another option is to become self employed. That way you never really have to deal with what other people think & do. This works very well for me; I can become as much part of the team as I like and skip all the office politics. All of the 'good', none of the 'bad'.

[snarkysparky]

I keep enough money saved.  The very fcking instant I am told that i am on "notice"  I will provide them with a "notice"  and they can watch my backside exit.

Its the only way to keep your mental health.  I never get too attached to a job.  It's just not good for you.   

I occasionally let em know that i can go.   I actually told my boss the other day to "get the f off me"  as he was looking over my shoulders while I was moving files on a computer and micro managing.

Of course I won't get promoted.  But that is another route to misery,  so I am OK with that.

[pcprogrammer]

Another option is to become self employed. That way you never really have to deal with what other people think & do. This works very well for me; I can become as much part of the team as I like and skip all the office politics. All of the 'good', none of the 'bad'.

Sure being self employed could solve some problems, but it ain't always easy. It depends very much on contacts you have and there is also a matter of responsibility and liability to consider. Then there is also the administrative side of things, that take up time. Don't think it is a 9 to 5 job, being self employed.

I was lucky that basically all the time work fell into my lap, and I never had to go out and look for it. It worked out well for me, and being wise with money plus not having kids allowed me to be where I am today. Have I had kids it would have been a different story, because it takes a lot of money to raise them.

So it depends very much on what your situation is, if you can take the gamble on starting your own business.

[nctnico]

Another option is to become self employed. That way you never really have to deal with what other people think & do. This works very well for me; I can become as much part of the team as I like and skip all the office politics. All of the 'good', none of the 'bad'.

Sure being self employed could solve some problems, but it ain't always easy. It depends very much on contacts you have and there is also a matter of responsibility and liability to consider. Then there is also the administrative side of things, that take up time. Don't think it is a 9 to 5 job, being self employed.

Administrative work is minimal. And work hours are flexible indeed but I see that as a positive thing.

I was lucky that basically all the time work fell into my lap, and I never had to go out and look for it. It worked out well for me, and being wise with money plus not having kids allowed me to be where I am today. Have I had kids it would have been a different story, because it takes a lot of money to raise them.

If you have kids, you just factor that in into the amount of money you need to make. Sometimes I need to go on a hunt for work but even for someone like me that is very doable. There is always a new project around the corner somewhere.

[james_s]

Being self employed sounds incredibly stressful to me. I just want to be assigned a job to do, do it, and get a regular paycheck that is the same amount every time. I don't like feast & famine situations where I never know how much to budget for the next month.

[nctnico]

To me being self employed is like being retired with some jobs on the side  I'd tinker with electronics and computers anyway. Having a deadline just makes sure projects actually get finished.

[fourfathom]

I was self-employed for a while, after I quit a job where the product-line was dying and the rats were leaving the sinking ship.  My boss offered to practically double my salary, but a buddy and I quit and did consulting jobs for about a year.  I had a wife, three young kids, and a mortgage, but we got by, just barely.  It was an interesting experience but I spent too much time finding clients and too little time doing the fun part.

So when I got the offer to join one of those risky start-ups I jumped at the chance.  My wife was thrilled that I would actually get a regular paycheck again.  And that sort of calibrated our attitude towards risk and reward.

Speaking of career calibration, perhaps the best thing that ever happened to me (in that department) was early in my career when I got fired for non-quality-of-work reasons.  I quickly found a better job, and realized that the employment relationship is not "'til death do us part". You are hired to help the company make money.  While there, you try to do a good job.  If the company no longer needs you they let you go, one way or another.  You owe them your best effort, but not your life.  If you have a better opportunity (and the definition of "better" is up to you) then you should take it, while trying to make the transition as easy as practical.  In the OP's case, the actions of the company mean the moral obligation to ease the transition no longer exists.  Start looking for a better job.

[tszaboo]

It's also not the Dutch way.

What is the Dutch way? I guess the guy who is stabbing you in the back is Dutch. Is that the Dutch way? Don't forget there are assholes in every culture.

I think you misunderstood. The Dutch way seems to me that everyone in a meeting needs to agree before it can continue.
I dont have this, perfectly capable on working on something that I didn't had a say in.

[langwadt]

I keep enough money saved.  The very fcking instant I am told that i am on "notice"  I will provide them with a "notice"  and they can watch my backside exit.

I don't know how it is in the Nederlands, but here if you quit you have one month notice and after that 3 weeks with no unemployment pay.
if you get fired your notice is three months plus an extra month for every three years of employment, so if the company wants to get rid of
you they would much prefer you quit rather than firing you
 

[nctnico]

I keep enough money saved.  The very fcking instant I am told that i am on "notice"  I will provide them with a "notice"  and they can watch my backside exit.

I don't know how it is in the Nederlands, but here if you quit you have one month notice and after that 3 weeks with no unemployment pay.
if you get fired your notice is three months plus an extra month for every three years of employment, so if the company wants to get rid of
you they would much prefer you quit rather than firing you

In the NL you might get welfare if you quit but no unemployment pay. If you get fired, then you are entitled to some pay but this has been cut down drastically due to the financial crisis. Companies could no longer afford to fire people and went belly up because the companies couldn't pay the salaries.

So yes, having a next job lined up before you quit is a good idea if you plan on getting a different job. I doubt tszaboo will have any difficulty finding a new job. Probably a good company to look out for is one which has other foreign people working there so the company is already used to different cultures and customs.

[fourfathom]

I don't know how it is in the Nederlands, but here if you quit you have one month notice and after that 3 weeks with no unemployment pay.
if you get fired your notice is three months plus an extra month for every three years of employment, so if the company wants to get rid of
you they would much prefer you quit rather than firing you

Everyone has different financial needs, but if by waiting for them to fire you you miss out on a good opportunity and have to spend more time in Hell, then it may be better to just walk away.  This is your career and your life we're talking about here, and a gaining a bit more money may cost you dearly in other ways.  Robert Heinlein wrote “In the course of a long life, one should be prepared to abandon one's baggage several times."  I think this is useful advice.

[SiliconWizard]

I keep enough money saved.  The very fcking instant I am told that i am on "notice"  I will provide them with a "notice"  and they can watch my backside exit.

I don't know how it is in the Nederlands, but here if you quit you have one month notice and after that 3 weeks with no unemployment pay.
if you get fired your notice is three months plus an extra month for every three years of employment, so if the company wants to get rid of
you they would much prefer you quit rather than firing you

Here it depends on the job level. For a typical engineering position, that's 3-month notice. (1-month for lower level positions.) That can sometimes be negotiated. And can be up to 6-month for top-management positions.

Now if you *resign*, rather than get fired, you get the same notice but are (usually) not entitled to unemployment benefits. At all. In a number of rare cases, you may after one month or so, but that's only for particular situations. Here they consider that if you resign out of your free will (you were not forced to), it's your decision, and you get no help.

For the other point, same. It usually costs significant money to fire someone that has been employed for a number of years.

[WillTurner]

  "He will choose you, disarm you with his words, and control you with his presence. He will delight you with his wit and his plans. He will smile and deceive you, and he will scare you with his eyes. And when he is through with you, and he will be through with you, he will desert you, and take with him your innocence and your pride."
                                Robert D. Hare, "Without Conscience"

I think you may have obliquely come across Robert Hare "The Psychopathy Checklist" eg [1] and [2]. If not, do some serious reading.

Psychopaths  occur in relationships, within organizations, or control nations. 

Defensive moves are limited, and  probably ineffective, however the first step [2] is to acknowledge the situation. Then you have some options:

• counterattack (involves exposing yourself) and you win by engaging a bigger (say, management) psychopath or being one yourself. Good luck with that .
• drive them away (eg offer not to press criminal charges in exchange for their resignation.) Good luck with that also.
• run (maybe the only viable option).

Also, do not empathise.

Maybe only a few percent of humans are psychopaths, but they do immense damage to the rest of us.

References
[1] "The Psychopathy Checklist by Robert Hare" https://exploringyourmind.com/the-psychopathy-checklist-by-robert-hare/
[2] Verstappen, Stefan "Defense against the Psychopath", Woodbridge Press 2011

[pcprogrammer]

It's also not the Dutch way.

What is the Dutch way? I guess the guy who is stabbing you in the back is Dutch. Is that the Dutch way? Don't forget there are assholes in every culture.

I think you misunderstood. The Dutch way seems to me that everyone in a meeting needs to agree before it can continue.
I dont have this, perfectly capable on working on something that I didn't had a say in.

Well then things must have changed since I retired. Have been in several meetings during my working days and points could easily be left open. But as with everything things do change over time and this might be one of them.

Regarding self employment I think nctnico oversimplifies things based on his own experiences. There are lots of things to consider like the rules for employer employee relationships. Don't know what the rules are know, but when I was self employed (>10 years ago), there were rules about when you worked for a company being self employed to test if there was no employer employee relationship, just to avoid paying additional social taxes. Could be very expensive for both parties if the inspection revealed such a relationship.

Furthermore if your work is hardware related it involves investments like buying your own test equipment to setup your own lab.

I'm not saying it is not a way to go, just be aware of what is involved in doing so. Be well informed before taking the step.

[SL4P]

Give them your contact details when you leave.
He’ll move on soon enough, and the employer might see wj
hat they’ve lost… then it’s your choice, and your terms if you chose to go back… or not.

[Haenk]

"I had 6 manager in the past 5 years"

This really hints at some serious issues within the company management itself, unless it's a huge company where personal is shifted around for various projects.

I'd say "run", but remember to cover your back. Keep a copy of everything you are told to do. Don't tell them you are looking for a new job, play the nice guy. You are essentially already mobbed out of the company and they are just waiting for a reason to terminate you. So try to don't even give them the slightest reason.

[nctnico]

It's also not the Dutch way.

What is the Dutch way? I guess the guy who is stabbing you in the back is Dutch. Is that the Dutch way? Don't forget there are assholes in every culture.

I think you misunderstood. The Dutch way seems to me that everyone in a meeting needs to agree before it can continue.
I dont have this, perfectly capable on working on something that I didn't had a say in.

Well then things must have changed since I retired. Have been in several meetings during my working days and points could easily be left open. But as with everything things do change over time and this might be one of them.

Regarding self employment I think nctnico oversimplifies things based on his own experiences. There are lots of things to consider like the rules for employer employee relationships. Don't know what the rules are know, but when I was self employed (>10 years ago), there were rules about when you worked for a company being self employed to test if there was no employer employee relationship, just to avoid paying additional social taxes. Could be very expensive for both parties if the inspection revealed such a relationship.

That is only a problem if you have one customer that you work for full time. In such a case you are no more or less than an employee and should consider becoming an employee of that customer (typically a customer will ask when hours start to mount up).

I always had multiple customers; actually it is better to work on two projects in parallel or alternate in short (several week) bursts for different customers. Even if the project spans multiple years. It may happen that a project gets cancelled for some reason and then you are suddenly out of work and income if you have no other customers / projects lined up.

Furthermore if your work is hardware related it involves investments like buying your own test equipment to setup your own lab.

That is true. I have invested quite a bit of money in test equipment over the years but in the end it amounts to a few percent of total revenue. Partly due to buying second hand equipment.

[Mario87]

I've been in a similar (altho not quite as bad) position at my last job. I just kept quiet, did my work and kept looking for a new job.

Eventually found a new company to go to, at the HR exit interview I burnt all my bridges in the old company and told them everything, however I think it had some effect as I knew they were already hiring my replacement before I left, spoke to someone who worked there almost a year later and the new hire never materialized, I feel HR put a halt on things.

Difference for us was we were a small company owned by one of the UK's largest companies and the exit interview was done by corporate, not the actual company I worked for, so corporate actually took what I said quite seriously as from what I understand they are actually quite good to work for directly.

Bottom line is, since I left, I have not been happier in my job. Don't stick around, it will only get worse!

[PlainName]

Furthermore if your work is hardware related it involves investments like buying your own test equipment to setup your own lab.

Isn't that a benefit?

[pcprogrammer]

Furthermore if your work is hardware related it involves investments like buying your own test equipment to setup your own lab.

Isn't that a benefit?

Definitely, with as an added bonus no VAT and a deduction on your tax bill due to write off over three years. A lot of what I bought in the time I was self employed has benefited from these perks. As long as I could make a reasonable argument it was needed for the business. Little did they know that an expensive oscilloscope was not needed for doing PC related software development

[freda]

TIP:Never conclude a meeting without followup notes:
Note, many meetings are not formal with minutes, or a manager attending.

If your responsible about some point of work, its hard to not
show passion about it, the gaslighter will use that against you.

Though humbly you might have something wrong too.

After the meeting always write the set of points raised in the meeting,
and conclusions and alternative points, and or reasons for/against.

Apart from your OWN points, do NOT name whoever other points are
apportioned from. (whoever is reading will know what points they own)
stay factual.

Email the notes to all attendees, and the department manager.

If you did make some mistake, whoever pointed it out is forced to
reply to you in writing. So deal with it congenially, this is team work.

The thing about gaslighters, is that they are just about never as good
technically as you, or other colleagues. But they will out talk you,
and beat you on the podium, and strangely even colleagues who are non-committal
about some point will weirdly be against you too, yes they are being manipulated
without even knowing it. I mean f#%#$@ they can be really good at it,
you will be bamboozled as to how that can be....It amazing how we humans
can be misdirected in remembering something differently to how it actually
happened.....some people are good at using that.

anyway, if you follow the procedure above you will very quickly find
out if is worth standing your ground/job or start looking for another
job pronto.
A genuine gaslighter will also feel cornered and you will be enemy #1.

Purely verbal meetings are a waste of time, but surprisingly are easily sucked
into to. So you need some self discipline to document them.

[tszaboo]

I've just received the official complaint letter. I'm going to ask formally for third part mediation. That's gotta be annoying enough for them, plus I wonder what sort of mediator wouldn't agree with me at least partially. Plus probably the proposed resolution would be apologizing, that I'm quite willing to do anyway.
I mean it's just a workplace conflict between employees.
And showing that I'm willing to cooperate would absolutely defuse their attempts of threatening my job.

[PlainName]

And showing that I'm willing to cooperate

Might not the request for an external mediator be seen as not cooperating? It's kind of saying you want to argue your case, and the only reason to do that is if you disagree with them. I think from their PoV, cooperating would be doffing your cap and agreeing with whatever the letter says, offering your apologies and saying you won't do it again.

I mean it's just a workplace conflict between employees

That's what it should be, but it seems to have turned into much more than that. I wouldn't use 'just' when it's potentially losing one's livelihood.

[rstofer]

Your resignation letter should read like the following with no additions:

Please accept my resignation effective <insert date here>

Sign and date but do NOT offer up reasons or excuses.  If possible, decline any meetings with Employee Relations other than those required to transfer any retirement amounts.  Sign acknowledgements of NDAs still in effect, don't agree to Non-Competes (they're not allowed in California, I don't know about elsewhere)

https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/attorney-general-bonta-reminds-employers-and-workers-noncompete-agreements-are

During the exit interview, if pressed, you are pursuing other opportunities.  Do NOT mention any internal struggles, they can find those for themselves.

[fourfathom]

Is a better job so hard to find?  From here it sounds like an unpleasant, dead-end environment.

[rstofer]

By giving you formal notification, the company is building a case to fire you for cause which they are documenting with the letter.  I don't know how many letters it takes to fire someone for cause but you're on the way.  Don't be surprised if you get other letters in the near future.

Make no mistake, your time at the company is short.  You will be leaving, you might as well make the next move.

If you are the only party to receive a 'do better' letter, the company is already taking sides and you lost.

[nctnico]

Your resignation letter should read like the following with no additions:

Please accept my resignation effective <insert date here>

Sign and date but do NOT offer up reasons or excuses.  If possible, decline any meetings with Employee Relations other than those required to transfer any retirement amounts.  Sign acknowledgements of NDAs still in effect, don't agree to Non-Competes (they're not allowed in California, I don't know about elsewhere)

Non competes for employees are very tricky to put in place & enforce in the NL. You really need help from a lawyer to figure out if you are actually bound to any non-compete you may have signed. If there isn't a specific monetary amount specified, then even a valid non-compete agreement is worth next to nothing anyway. Your former employer would need to go to court and prove that they are suffering damages before any claim can be made.

@tszaboo: I agree with the assesment of others that it is time to look for a new job in a different company. The relationship with your current employer just isn't working and there is no shame or error in that. Maybe even consider moving to a different part of the country. The culture varies a lot within the Netherlands depending on the area you are in. I have also worked at companies where I didn't fit in with the 'locals' 100%.

[tszaboo]

Is a better job so hard to find?  From here it sounds like an unpleasant, dead-end environment.

Oh, I started looking. But I also like to keep my options open. That's why I'm not burning bridges. I also notified upper management, that I'm not satisfied with their resolution of the problem. No threats or anything that's pointless.
And yes, being a foreigner, it makes finding a job harder. It's not to criticize the locals, it's just a fact.

By giving you formal notification, the company is building a case to fire you for cause which they are documenting with the letter.  I don't know how many letters it takes to fire someone for cause but you're on the way.  Don't be surprised if you get other letters in the near future.

Make no mistake, your time at the company is short.  You will be leaving, you might as well make the next move.

If you are the only party to receive a 'do better' letter, the company is already taking sides and you lost.

I'm aware, they were very clear about that.
It's only a scaremongering tactics, as I said the opportunity cost would be too much for the company to let me go.

[nctnico]

Is a better job so hard to find?  From here it sounds like an unpleasant, dead-end environment.

Oh, I started looking. But I also like to keep my options open. That's why I'm not burning bridges. I also notified upper management, that I'm not satisfied with their resolution of the problem. No threats or anything that's pointless.

That is a good idea. If you happen to find another job, just say you got a very good offer somewhere else and thus resign. Keep things positive. Maybe someday your current employer may come to their senses and asks you back.

[bdunham7]

It's only a scaremongering tactics, as I said the opportunity cost would be too much for the company to let me go.

I've seen cases where people were confident that they wouldn't be fired because they believed that a complete fucking disaster would ensue if they were.  And, they were fired and while a complete fucking disaster did ensue (in one case, major disaster with fireballs and wreckage and people killed due to the incompetence of the replacement) they weren't asked back, the companies still exist and the managers that did the firing are still there, or were for as long as I paid attention.   

[olkipukki]

How to deal with manipulative coworker

In general, you don't, especially if a management on same side with a coworker, with some exceptions:
- you're patiently waiting a huge bonus
- you need to sell vested shares
- promotion is just about and you will move away from all these nonsense
- you can move/transfer to another department/team

Everything else might lead to self-destruction, alcoholism, mental breakdown, drugs etc.

As already mentioned, it's better find a new job while working rather than sitting on a bench and awaiting to be called.
Take a holiday, polish your CV, apply for open vacancies as much as you can  - I would say more productive compared to wasting time on internal battling in a company

I don't want to do that without plan B.

You already have Plan B - your current job, get to work on Plan A

[olkipukki]

I also notified upper management, that I'm not satisfied with their resolution of the problem.

I would call it 'the issue' not "the problem"
 

It's only a scaremongering tactics, as I said the opportunity cost would be too much for the company to let me go.

If you don't have financial interest in a company and share their profits/dividends, it should be less your worry.
You can use it as a leverage for short-period of time (such as "quiet qutting"), but one away or another they will solve it easy by hiring 2-3 persons if no satisfied candidate on a market at the given time.

[rstofer]

Is a better job so hard to find?  From here it sounds like an unpleasant, dead-end environment.

Oh, I started looking. But I also like to keep my options open. That's why I'm not burning bridges. I also notified upper management, that I'm not satisfied with their resolution of the problem. No threats or anything that's pointless.
And yes, being a foreigner, it makes finding a job harder. It's not to criticize the locals, it's just a fact.

By giving you formal notification, the company is building a case to fire you for cause which they are documenting with the letter.  I don't know how many letters it takes to fire someone for cause but you're on the way.  Don't be surprised if you get other letters in the near future.

Make no mistake, your time at the company is short.  You will be leaving, you might as well make the next move.

If you are the only party to receive a 'do better' letter, the company is already taking sides and you lost.

I'm aware, they were very clear about that.
It's only a scaremongering tactics, as I said the opportunity cost would be too much for the company to let me go.

At some point, the company will reach the conclusion that the cost of non-action exceeds the benefit.  Hopefully you will have another job lined up.  No employee is irreplaceable, there is just a period of adjustment and that may be less painful than maintaining the status quo.

[fourfathom]

I will repeat what has already been said because it's so important:  No one is irreplaceable.  Always remember this.

[tggzzz]

Is a better job so hard to find?  From here it sounds like an unpleasant, dead-end environment.

Oh, I started looking. But I also like to keep my options open. That's why I'm not burning bridges. I also notified upper management, that I'm not satisfied with their resolution of the problem. No threats or anything that's pointless.

That is a good idea. If you happen to find another job, just say you got a very good offer somewhere else and thus resign. Keep things positive. Maybe someday your current employer may come to their senses and asks you back.

Or you may later encounter a current coworker in a different company. It is a surprisingly small world.

[bdunham7]

I will repeat what has already been said because it's so important:  No one is irreplaceable.  Always remember this.

I'll disagree a bit because I've seen this sort of drama unfold more than once.  Well-run companies will actively avoid situations where they become too dependent on key employees for ordinary functions.  An employee cannot make themselves 'irreplaceable' by being the only one that knows the keycode for the forklift or something silly like that.  But in some small and medium sized companies, an employee can easily become important enough that they cannot be fired without significantly affecting the operation of the company.  A small business owner--say Joe's Pet Food and Dogwash--may employ one very good dogwasher that is known and loved by customers and dogs alike.  The result of that employee leaving may be that the business becomes just Joe's Pet Food, or even goes out of business entirely.  Being irreplaceable doesn't mean that you can't be fired, but rather that in some cases there are consequences that cannot be mitigated.  Small businesses are often run by stubborn, angry people that might otherwise be unemployable. 

Being irreplaceable won't keep you from being fired.  Oddly, being a 'top performer', especially in areas like sales, often makes that person almost immune from firing even though they often achieve that top performance at the expense of other employees and the company itself.

[james_s]

I've seen cases where people were confident that they wouldn't be fired because they believed that a complete fucking disaster would ensue if they were.  And, they were fired and while a complete fucking disaster did ensue (in one case, major disaster with fireballs and wreckage and people killed due to the incompetence of the replacement) they weren't asked back, the companies still exist and the managers that did the firing are still there, or were for as long as I paid attention.   

I have also seen people fired, some for rather dubious reasons, that resulted in something that could be similarly described as "a complete fucking disaster", no fireballs or deaths but in at least one case a rather successful business tanked, one of their two locations closing permanently due to the total incompetence of the person brought in to replace the person that got fired. Incidentally they were fired for reporting something to HR on behalf of another employee who was being treated very poorly by the former owner. He sold the business he'd built to a corporate entity and was not adjusting well to being an employee who had to follow rules.

[tom66]

I will repeat what has already been said because it's so important:  No one is irreplaceable.  Always remember this.

Hard disagree.   Let's call this person 'Phil', not their real name, but I know them tangentially.  They left their company for a better offer.  It was a small firm - five engineers or so, another ten or so in various admin/production/etc roles.  They knew exactly how system X worked (a complex arrangement of hardware, embedded software, Linux and FPGAs in a three-SoC system), and hadn't properly documented it.  The project was abandoned - four years of work lost as a result - easily several hundred thousand pounds of economic impact to the company.  The result was the company had to hire contractors to implement the project in a different manner.   Like it or not, many engineers suck at documentation.  Some of that is out of fear that documentation will make it easier to replace them, but I think it's more because writing documentation well is *boring* and feels unproductive. 

Does the lack of replaceability guarantee immunity towards being fired?  Hell no, sometimes corporate leaders have no idea how significant certain members of a team can be.  Can it end up being a really bad move to sack someone who is integral to a project's completion?  Absolutely, and that can make them irreplaceable, and bosses that are aware of that will often let these employees get away with bloody murder, within the limits of HR.

[pcprogrammer]

Like it or not, many engineers suck at documentation.  Some of that is out of fear that documentation will make it easier to replace them, but I think it's more because writing documentation well is *boring* and feels unproductive. 

Making proper documentation is also a skill. And yes it is boring and not part of the things an engineer likes to do.

I don't know how it is nowadays, but managers used to think that it was just like opening a can and hopla 10 engineers pop out to replace the one that got fired.

[fourfathom]

I will repeat what has already been said because it's so important:  No one is irreplaceable.  Always remember this.

Hard disagree.
[...]
Does the lack of replaceability guarantee immunity towards being fired?  Hell no, sometimes corporate leaders have no idea how significant certain members of a team can be.

I was trying to say that anyone can be fired, regardless of their value to the company.  The firing may result in catastrophe, but managers may have other priorities, may not recognize the critical nature of the employee, or regardless of the likely consequences may have no other option.  So you can always be replaced.  Bad things may happen to the company, but that's no guarantee of anything.  Chaos reigns, people behave in unpredictable manner.  Not always, and not without consequences, but always be prepared for that quiet tap on the shoulder.

[Nominal Animal]

Even people absolutely vital and critical for the business can be fired, because businesses are managed and run by imperfect humans.

One of the biggest tragedies of human enterprise is how laughably bad we are, statistically speaking, at management and leadership.  I know, I've done it myself; but also seen how it is done right.

Just because you know the business will crash if you are fired, does not mean you are immune from office politics, sociopath gaming, becoming a scapegoat for a higher up who just wants to retain their bonus as they will be leaving early next year anyway, and simply because someone does not like you.

Laws will not protect you, because if they really want to get rid of you no matter how important/useful/profitable worker you are, they will manufacture the paperwork to shield themselves.  You may think such paperwork is easily dismissed, but you forget: it is those exact same tactics that got them there in the first place.  They've got experience in such games.

The sooner you find a different job, the better.  Do not be like me, and burn yourself out and fall into depression, because you think you can "win them over" or "show them".  You can't, because they are only interested in their own short-term personal gains: the hell with the company, business, and everyone else.
In the end, very few humans are actually rational and logical; most do run on pure short-term planning and instict and emotions.

[EEVblog_Fan]

  If you have a manipulative co worker now in your current job, and you want to get rid of it in your happy life....... there are no guaratees that your next job, if you decided to 'back out' will be all peaceful and serene, so my advice for you is ask yourself, can you continue working with this devil? If not, then get the hell out there and find a new job!

[pcprogrammer]

By the looks of it it is not a question of if tszaboo is willing to continue to work for the devil. It looks more like the devil does not want to work with him because the devil is either threatened by tszaboo his skills or just does not like tszaboo for what ever reason.

And when management is in the corner of the devil there is no other way then out of the door.

Edit: fixed some typos.

[dastructhm]

"How to ...     ." is giving an instruction.
"How do you ...     ?" is asking a question.
 

[dastructhm]

The only way to solve issue like this: Be the guy who can work with anyone.

It sounds easy or very difficult, but it's true. Friends come and go, but the enemies accumulate..

I recommend watching this video series:

https://youtu.be/SmeyzDEEieY?list=PLGs0VKk2DiYxoFT6TYPJgBu81B1pVtOmz

[tszaboo]

The only way to solve issue like this: Be the guy who can work with anyone.

It sounds easy or very difficult, but it's true. Friends come and go, but the enemies accumulate..

It sounds very difficult, when it's about things that I care about. That's probably the issue. I started caring, and trying to make the best of things.
Well, that's sorted now.

Does the lack of replaceability guarantee immunity towards being fired?  Hell no, sometimes corporate leaders have no idea how significant certain members of a team can be.  Can it end up being a really bad move to sack someone who is integral to a project's completion?  Absolutely, and that can make them irreplaceable, and bosses that are aware of that will often let these employees get away with bloody murder, within the limits of HR.

Yes, I've seen my boss do this with someone else. He could get away with not commiting his work to the version control, and bully others out of their job. It happened at a different branch, didn't have to work with him. But I had to tell my boss, if they ever put me on a team with him, I quit on the spot.

Like it or not, many engineers suck at documentation.  Some of that is out of fear that documentation will make it easier to replace them, but I think it's more because writing documentation well is *boring* and feels unproductive. 

That's actually the trick I have. We have to do a lot of documentation, and a niche electronics design practices for ATEX. I've been delivering constantly projects, without too much headache to management, and they see that. Because previously the documentation part of the project took several months to deliver, and they had to hire external consultants full time to do that.
Plus, I've seen them fire people without the due process, banking on the fact that they are foreigners, and don't know that there needs to be a court order for such a dismissal. They are not doing that with me, just trying to keep the status quo.

This is just me trying to rationalize the events. I'm not bulletproof. I have the screw you money Dave keeps talking about. It really is a good way to secure your life against situations like this. But I would say it actually has a drawbacks: Having the money makes you too confident.
It's a good insurance against abuse from your managers. It's not good when you have coworkers trying to abuse you, because they are just going to escalate the situation, and make your life annoying, without actually being an actual threat to you.

[Nominal Animal]

I started caring, and trying to make the best of things.

That's very close to what broke me.  I am the type who can work with anyone.  Even if I vehemently disagree with you, and we seriously argue about something, I'll be happy to try and help you in other things.  I just am like that, a toolmaker, enabler; thing-oriented.  I have always cared too much about the work itself, and did not learn to just walk away until it was too late.

How to walk away from a bad job or bad job environment –– or hell, a bad environment! –– is something everyone should learn how to do.

[Fraser]

Nominal Animal…you and I have much in common !

Fraser

[Psi]

Hm..

Probably how I would handle this is a paper letter mailed to the CEO (or any high-up person that you know will listen).

In the letter you would outline the issue and what dishonest things this person has been doing.

The letter would end in your official resignation with a statement that you enjoy working there and would be very happy to come back but it's either him or you.
Tell them you will give them 1-2 month before you move on.

Then you take some time to do things around the house that you've been putting off, you look for new jobs etc..
But mostly you are waiting for bad stuff to happen at the company, due to you not being there, which proves to them you're more valuable than he is.  By quitting you regain control of the situation.

Either they will call, and you get your job back, or they don't and you move on.

[pcprogrammer]

Nominal Animal…you and I have much in common !

Fraser

As do I and probably others on the forum too. Caring for the work and trying to do it perfect will bring you down in the end. Been there twice. The first time full on breakdown, the second time almost and I walked away from it. After that I tried to keep ahead of it, but it was not easy. It is housed in my DNA

[snarkysparky]

Always have visibility to your bosses boss.   And your bosses bosses boss.   If they know you and like your work you can gain much leverage on your immediate manager.

Been there ,  done that ..

[hans]

@tszaboo: so sorry to read about this. I remember your post from a few years back where you moved in hopes of a more suitable job. I sincerely hope you can find a work environment with the right people!

Hm..

Probably how I would handle this is a paper letter mailed to the CEO (or any high-up person that you know will listen).

In the letter you would outline the issue and what dishonest things this person has been doing.

The letter would end in your official resignation with a statement that you enjoy working there and would be very happy to come back but it's either him or you.
Tell them you will give them 1-2 month before you move on.

Then you take some time to do things around the house that you've been putting off, you look for new jobs etc..
But mostly you are waiting for bad stuff to happen at the company, due to you not being there, which proves to them you're more valuable than he is.  By quitting you regain control of the situation.

Either they will call, and you get your job back, or they don't and you move on.

Unless you're 100% certain you can fight for your own justice, this is far too confrontational IMO.
Yes it may feel good to "teach them a lesson", but it isn't going to convince anyone but add more fuel to the fire.

Besides, maybe that CEO jumps ships in a few years too, and you meet him/her at an awesome tech startup. What's the point of potentially burning that bridge with such a letter? I would just hand in a resignation with something along the lines of "my views don't align with the views of the company on how this project/team should be run" and perhaps if you feel like it: "feel that my side of the story is not heard and treatment has been biased". Just say you've found a new job.

Inform them to quit as soon as legal terms of the contract allow, say end of next month. Take all the holiday leave that is still left. Hopefully only work for 5 more days where you basically only commit your local git changes to repository with comments like "TODO:", and write e-mails informing your colleagues (in appropriate time) about your decision.
You may want to inform with your legal insurance on how to do this most efficiently. A company can deny some parts of holiday allowance, but not all since employees in NL are 'always' allowed to take IIRC 2 weeks of holidays in a row. Alternatively they can also become sick days, because don't let the stress of "I must finish everything in time" get grips of you. There are other things in life that matter more like your health. But I cannot give legal advice about this.

I've been in a toxic workplace before, and the biggest regret I had was to continue to work as hard to 'make the best of it', and finish the project that I had ownership of. Let's face it: the work environment sucks, so you're unlikely to change the colleagues and management decisions. Second, that project may be something to be proud of and carry some emotional attachment/investment down the line, but whether you shut the door in 5 days or 5 months from now: you won't be involved in the future of that project down the line.
Sure for a future work reference it may be nice to leave under the best terms, like working on documenting and handing over the project to colleagues. The last week I only worked on documentation of said project. But despite me working for another 2 months on the project, I still had to inform my manager that it was not ready for release yet. Because you know.. engineers and their time estimations.. Nonetheless I regret the most I  still trying to live up for the responsibility of this job even after I had handed in my resignation, because like I said.. after you shut the door it's not your problem anymore.

The workplace I worked in had a bully-style manager from another department that asked me to do many things ad-hoc. Many things where he could have given a shorter notice, or where I thought if he know his stuff (he was a highschool dropout, but his dad was up the ass of the big boss..) he would be less dependent. Meanwhile he was gaslighting and downright hurtful behind my back to other colleagues I didn't want to create a scene with this guy, but this also made me feel unheard, unappreciated and annoyed since my actual tasks were frequently disturbed. HR said they saw this guy's "limitations" but in the end this was also my problem. Well, luckily I had some screw-you money..

2 years down the line, I got a IM whether I was interested in working for them again. All the hints they gave about why were signs to me of what a 'braindrain' does to the company. In a span 3 years most of the development engineers had left (e.g. that braindrain already started when I was still around).

I thanked them sincerely,.

[rstofer]

Hm..

Probably how I would handle this is a paper letter mailed to the CEO (or any high-up person that you know will listen).

In the letter you would outline the issue and what dishonest things this person has been doing.

The letter would end in your official resignation with a statement that you enjoy working there and would be very happy to come back but it's either him or you.
Tell them you will give them 1-2 month before you move on.

Then you take some time to do things around the house that you've been putting off, you look for new jobs etc..
But mostly you are waiting for bad stuff to happen at the company, due to you not being there, which proves to them you're more valuable than he is.  By quitting you regain control of the situation.

Either they will call, and you get your job back, or they don't and you move on.

I still think the best way to handle it is to find another job and say NOTHING on the way out.  Believe me, management doesn't want to hear 'reasons' or 'excuses', they just want the problem (likely you) to go away so they can get back to doing something else.  In the end, it is a learning experience and next time things may not go so far off the rails.

Getting the 'do better' letter is you first and probably last warning.  Get out before you get fired.  Getting fired looks bad on a job application or resume.  Changing jobs after a while is far less of a concern.

ETA:

Never bad-mouth the company, before, during or after leaving.  If anybody asks, "It was a great place to work but I wanted a change."  That's all you should say - EVER!

[PlainName]

Getting fired looks bad on a job application or resume.

Yep, this is a biggy. Even if you have a cast iron excuse, no-one will read that and just see 'fired'.

[rstofer]

Getting fired looks bad on a job application or resume.

Yep, this is a biggy. Even if you have a cast iron excuse, no-one will read that and just see 'fired'.

In a small community of engineers, it may make you unemployable.  Word gets around!

[tggzzz]

It is a truism that it is very difficult to change the "culture" of a company - either for better or for worse.

If the company tolerates or even encourages bullying and the like, then it won't change until all the people in the company have changed. Why all? Because if 90% leave the remaining 10% will be under ridiculous pressure, and they will propagate bad behaviour to anybody that joins.

It works the other way as well, as "illustrated" in the attached SatireWire article ("Loyal Employees a Valuable Asset, So Now is a Good Time to Sell Them") which rapidly went around HP in the Princess Carly era (2001).

[rstofer]

Paul Simon's contribution in a slightly different context

https://youtu.be/ABXtWqmArUU

[nctnico]

Hm..

Probably how I would handle this is a paper letter mailed to the CEO (or any high-up person that you know will listen).

In the letter you would outline the issue and what dishonest things this person has been doing.

The letter would end in your official resignation with a statement that you enjoy working there and would be very happy to come back but it's either him or you.
Tell them you will give them 1-2 month before you move on.

Then you take some time to do things around the house that you've been putting off, you look for new jobs etc..
But mostly you are waiting for bad stuff to happen at the company, due to you not being there, which proves to them you're more valuable than he is.  By quitting you regain control of the situation.

Either they will call, and you get your job back, or they don't and you move on.

That won't work. No employer will give an employee that kind of power. Just quit and say/write you got a better job offer elsewhere.

BTW: CEO or any other person at management level won't care about problems between employees; they expect the lower management to deal with that.

[fourfathom]

Yes.  Find a new job then politely walk away.  Sending a letter to the CEO or your boss won't accomplishing anything useful.  Not useful to you, or to the company,  Your letter is not going to get them to "see the light" -- they should have already seen it by now.  Given what has happened already you do not owe them a thing.  Do what you must do in order to keep some self-respect, but you are no longer responsible for finishing the current project.  As Paul Simon said, "get yourself free".

[nvmR]

OP, we're cheering for you, be strong! Find something new that interests you, and leave. You'll be shocked after a while that it took you so long to leave.
Make sure to leave as cleanly as possible and legally. I overdo it, and feel that 100% of work that occurred at the company is the companies IP, so I have no ownership of it.

I video that really helped me understand what was to come when leaving was this one:


Good Luck!

[nctnico]

As a side note: My saying is that companies as an entity have the moral compass of a 4 year old child.

[tggzzz]

As a side note: My saying is that companies as an entity have the moral compass of a 4 year old child.

Not always true.

When I worked for HP, and before Princess Fiorina, there was a very strong moral compass inside HP. It was known as "The HP Way".

The way the HP Way" was propagated was interesting. It was partly written down, but new people - and more importantly new sites - became familiar with via osmositic absorbtion of numerous "Bill and Dave" stories which illustrated simple practical applications of the morals[1].

Princess Carly explicitly declared The HP Way dead, replacing it with the incomprehensible and unusable "Rules of the Garage".

No idea what the current culture is; I left HP two decades ago.

[1] One examples story: in the 70s a new HP minicomputer was "disappointing" customers. When this got to Dave's attention, he wrote a memo to the project manager, Paul Ely, saying simply "please ensure that when we release products they conform to the advertised performance". That, in HP terms, was a stingin rebuke. Ely's response was to frame the memo, and hang it on his office wall. Ely went on to have a good career within HP.

[Nominal Animal]

Nominal Animal…you and I have much in common !

As do I and probably others on the forum too. Caring for the work and trying to do it perfect will bring you down in the end. Been there twice. The first time full on breakdown, the second time almost and I walked away from it. After that I tried to keep ahead of it, but it was not easy. It is housed in my DNA

That's exactly the reason I'm voicing it out: people like us, including tszaboo, technically oriented people motivated by the work itself, are particularly susceptible to this; and this can easily destroy us.  I'm just waving a flag, saying "here lies a dangerous pitfall, beware", and describing what happened to myself to show that the pitfall has sharp spikes in it, illustrating how serious a danger it is.

As a side note: My saying is that companies as an entity have the moral compass of a 4 year old child.

Not always true.

When I worked for HP, and before Princess Fiorina, there was a very strong moral compass inside HP. It was known as "The HP Way".

It depends on the owners and stockholders, actually.  The purpose of a company is to make profit, and if the leadership puts anything before profit, stockholders may take them into court.  However, if the owners/stockholders tell the company to behave in a specific way, then the situation is different.

Thing is, how many Owners are there that put things like company morals ahead of their own profit?  Not many.  Some, yes; but not many.

[fourfathom]

Making a profit is not evil -- that's how we put food on the table.  And there is no good reason that a company has to behave in an evil manner in order to make a profit.  But sometimes they do, by pursuing short-term gain while ignoring long-term damage, or by allowing personal biases to destroy the work environment.  It's tough to run a company, and sometimes unpleasant decisions have to be made.  And you have to make choices based on uncertain factors, steering into a future that is unknowable.  And sometimes people are just stupid.

I guess I am saying that guessing at motivations is sort of useless.  Look at the facts of your situation and act on those facts.  How or why are not important.  You can control what you do, how you react.  Take charge of your life.  Don't be a victim.

[Ed.Kloonk]

You can control what you do, how you react.  Take charge of your life.  Don't be a victim.

 

Thank you. 

[tggzzz]

Nominal Animal…you and I have much in common !

As do I and probably others on the forum too. Caring for the work and trying to do it perfect will bring you down in the end. Been there twice. The first time full on breakdown, the second time almost and I walked away from it. After that I tried to keep ahead of it, but it was not easy. It is housed in my DNA

That's exactly the reason I'm voicing it out: people like us, including tszaboo, technically oriented people motivated by the work itself, are particularly susceptible to this; and this can easily destroy us.  I'm just waving a flag, saying "here lies a dangerous pitfall, beware", and describing what happened to myself to show that the pitfall has sharp spikes in it, illustrating how serious a danger it is.

As a side note: My saying is that companies as an entity have the moral compass of a 4 year old child.

Not always true.

When I worked for HP, and before Princess Fiorina, there was a very strong moral compass inside HP. It was known as "The HP Way".

It depends on the owners and stockholders, actually.  The purpose of a company is to make profit, and if the leadership puts anything before profit, stockholders may take them into court.  However, if the owners/stockholders tell the company to behave in a specific way, then the situation is different.

Thing is, how many Owners are there that put things like company morals ahead of their own profit?  Not many.  Some, yes; but not many.

HP was indeed a notable exception. That's how they made it into the somewhat famous book "In Search of Excellence".

Not a bad book, but it was amusing that it is 400 pages long - many of which note that the successful companies quickly get to the nub of an issue and deal with it

Making a profit is not evil -- that's how we put food on the table.  And there is no good reason that a company has to behave in an evil manner in order to make a profit.  But sometimes they do, by pursuing short-term gain while ignoring long-term damage, or by allowing personal biases to destroy the work environment.  It's tough to run a company, and sometimes unpleasant decisions have to be made.  And you have to make choices based on uncertain factors, steering into a future that is unknowable.  And sometimes people are just stupid.

Yes indeed.

HP explicitly took the attitude that they made a profit by ensuring their customers could use their equipment to make a profit. Before I joined HP, I experienced HP helping in my company ways that cost them some time/money, even though they were under no obligation whatsoever.

On at least one occasion when they had to shut a facility, the internal magazine publicised the problems that was causing for some long-term (decades) employees. They also noted how the employees could have helped themselves to retain employability (basically not doing the same thing for decades).

[Nominal Animal]

Making a profit is not evil -- that's how we put food on the table.  And there is no good reason that a company has to behave in an evil manner in order to make a profit.  But sometimes they do, by pursuing short-term gain while ignoring long-term damage, or by allowing personal biases to destroy the work environment.  It's tough to run a company, and sometimes unpleasant decisions have to be made.  And you have to make choices based on uncertain factors, steering into a future that is unknowable.  And sometimes people are just stupid.

Oh, I do absolutely agree.

Even psychopaths can be wonderful to work with, when they are on your side.  It's really the shortsightedness and stupid immediate gratification seeking that is harmful, really.  Aside from that, I do think there is a niche for every kind of human personality.

I guess I am saying that guessing at motivations is sort of useless.  Look at the facts of your situation and act on those facts.  How or why are not important.  You can control what you do, how you react.  Take charge of your life.  Don't be a victim.

Right!

But my point was more on the lines of trying to change others is a fool's errand.  It is always honorable to leave, to go somewhere else where ones own contributions can have a more positive effect.  This is important to understand and internalize: by staying, you are not doing anyone any favours –– except possibly enabling the manipulators to continue manipulating.

[pcprogrammer]

Aside from that, I do think there is a niche for every kind of human personality.

Yes, but for some that is a deep and dark hole in the ground

Sorry, has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but could not resist.

[nctnico]

Making a profit is not evil -- that's how we put food on the table.  And there is no good reason that a company has to behave in an evil manner in order to make a profit.  But sometimes they do, by pursuing short-term gain while ignoring long-term damage, or by allowing personal biases to destroy the work environment.  It's tough to run a company, and sometimes unpleasant decisions have to be made.  And you have to make choices based on uncertain factors, steering into a future that is unknowable.  And sometimes people are just stupid.

It is more dangerous than that. People feel less vulnerable for accountability when part of a group. This 'documentary' shows this effect in action:

[Psi]

Hm..

Probably how I would handle this is a paper letter mailed to the CEO (or any high-up person that you know will listen).

In the letter you would outline the issue and what dishonest things this person has been doing.

The letter would end in your official resignation with a statement that you enjoy working there and would be very happy to come back but it's either him or you.
Tell them you will give them 1-2 month before you move on.

Then you take some time to do things around the house that you've been putting off, you look for new jobs etc..
But mostly you are waiting for bad stuff to happen at the company, due to you not being there, which proves to them you're more valuable than he is.  By quitting you regain control of the situation.

Either they will call, and you get your job back, or they don't and you move on.

That won't work. No employer will give an employee that kind of power. Just quit and say/write you got a better job offer elsewhere.

BTW: CEO or any other person at management level won't care about problems between employees; they expect the lower management to deal with that.

That wasn't really the point, the point was to make it known at a higher level why you are leaving. It's not an ultimatum or power play, it's just
"Hey, you have a big problem and i'm leaving because of it"

This way, when all this persons lies are discovered and important things don't get done and the company starts losing money due to mistakes,  someone at a high-level in the company goes "hang on, someone told me about this guy 6 months go"

Babylon 5 Wisdom
"When others do a foolish thing, you should tell them it is a foolish thing. They can still continue to do it, but at least the truth is where it needs to be"

In this case the foolish thing is the company continue to employee the guy causing this problem.


I do accept that it does depend on the size of the company. Obviously the CEO in a huge multinational company is not the right person to send a letter to, but for a much smaller company the CEO maybe the correct person.

[hans]

But this again plays into feeling responsible for doing someone else's job (the CEO), or the company.

Just let it go.

[nctnico]

Hm..

Probably how I would handle this is a paper letter mailed to the CEO (or any high-up person that you know will listen).

In the letter you would outline the issue and what dishonest things this person has been doing.

The letter would end in your official resignation with a statement that you enjoy working there and would be very happy to come back but it's either him or you.
Tell them you will give them 1-2 month before you move on.

Then you take some time to do things around the house that you've been putting off, you look for new jobs etc..
But mostly you are waiting for bad stuff to happen at the company, due to you not being there, which proves to them you're more valuable than he is.  By quitting you regain control of the situation.

Either they will call, and you get your job back, or they don't and you move on.

That won't work. No employer will give an employee that kind of power. Just quit and say/write you got a better job offer elsewhere.

BTW: CEO or any other person at management level won't care about problems between employees; they expect the lower management to deal with that.

That wasn't really the point, the point was to make it known at a higher level why you are leaving. It's not an ultimatum or power play, it's just
"Hey, you have a big problem and i'm leaving because of it"

Watch the entire video nvmR posted a few messages earlier. It is really good advice and a good view on how the world works. IF management is keen on keeping people on-board, they would do a better job or maybe they are not interested in keeping certain people in the first place. Sending a letter to a CEO is counterproductive and results in people having a negative vibe about you. The notion of keeping YOU on board as something that is important to the company should come from other people, not yourself. And even then management can decide to make the company less dependant on a single person.

[fourfathom]

And even then management can decide to make the company less dependant on a single person.

Any company should already be doing this.  No matter how valuable, critical, and irreplaceable I am as an employee, and no matter how well I am treated, I can always be hit by a truck.

[mrbrown]

I know it's hard to leave your comfort zone, but just go find a new job, that shouldn't be too difficult these days for anyone in your line of work.

After 5 years of doing the same job it's never a bad idea to find something new, meet some new people to learn from, learn some new skills, regain motivation.

Stick your energy in something positive, way more rewarding.

[rstofer]

And even then management can decide to make the company less dependant on a single person.

Any company should already be doing this.  No matter how valuable, critical, and irreplaceable I am as an employee, and no matter how well I am treated, I can always be hit by a truck.

And that's why companies have 'key person' insurance on their most important employees.  It's payable on the death of a key person, not just when they walk out.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/k/keypersoninsurance.asp

[fourfathom]

After 5 years of doing the same job it's never a bad idea to find something new, meet some new people to learn from, learn some new skills, regain motivation.

I agree, at least if you're not wildly enthusiastic about your current job.  I wasn't a job-hopper by any means, but several times around the 4-5 year point I would finally take a long vacation, and when I got back I would think "I don't need this shit!", find a new job, and then hand in my two-week notice (note the order in which I did this).  I've talked elsewhere about companies accumulating deadwood employees, and sometimes if the company environment was becoming bad I would start to feel like deadwood myself.  This isn't good for anyone.  Engineering wasn't merely a job for me, it's who I am, and I need a challenge to be at my best. I've been retired for over twenty years now (retired at age 45) but I still feel like this -- only now I find my own challenges.

[tszaboo]

After 5 years of doing the same job it's never a bad idea to find something new, meet some new people to learn from, learn some new skills, regain motivation.

I agree, at least if you're not wildly enthusiastic about your current job.  I wasn't a job-hopper by any means, but several times around the 4-5 year point I would finally take a long vacation, and when I got back I would think "I don't need this shit!", find a new job, and then hand in my two-week notice (note the order in which I did this).  I've talked elsewhere about companies accumulating deadwood employees, and sometimes if the company environment was becoming bad I would start to feel like deadwood myself.  This isn't good for anyone.  Engineering wasn't merely a job for me, it's who I am, and I need a challenge to be at my best. I've been retired for over twenty years now (retired at age 45) but I still feel like this -- only now I find my own challenges.

It's surprising to me how predictable it is that a company with bad management and company culture can poison it's environment and turn it into an ever replicating status quo. The energy was very different when I joined here. And then with a few key people replaced, they just started accumulating people with horrible personalities. The good employees left, and the people who didn't care (including myself) and bad attitude stayed.
I could pinpoint it in time, exactly, when this started happening.
I've also been at companies, where this has already happened. And bad managers are going to promote same-minded people. And encourage this sort of back channel communication. Or hiring/promoting people who are completely unqualified for the jobs.

I know it's hard to leave your comfort zone, but just go find a new job, that shouldn't be too difficult these days for anyone in your line of work.

After 5 years of doing the same job it's never a bad idea to find something new, meet some new people to learn from, learn some new skills, regain motivation.

Stick your energy in something positive, way more rewarding.

Not just that, but it's good also career-wise. People who switch jobs every few years statistically end up with much higher salaries after a decade or two.

[fourfathom]

The first time I quit in anger was when they replaced my manager with a guy who was technically incompetent and "fixed" my designs behind my back.  I had a simple NPN saturated switch in a low-voltage power circuit (It might have been using a single 1.2V NiCd battery, don't recall) and he explained to me how that couldn't possibly work.  "You see", he explained, "a transistor is really two back-to-back diodes, so the collector voltage can never be less than the base voltage."  I tried to explain how a transistor can operate when saturated, even demonstrating it on the bench.  He protested that I was "pulling the ground up." 

There were many other examples of this behavior, such as when I was having a custom transducer made.  My boss had not one clue about the difference between closed-loop and open-loop output impedance of an amplifier.  I was going for maximum power transfer and he changed the transducer spec to match the (extremely low) closed-loop impedance. When the transducers were delivered they obviously didn't work very well, and that's when I discovered that he had changed the spec before it went out.  He wasn't a bad person, but he had no business second-guessing anyone else's design.

The company wasn't going to get rid of him, and other indicators were not good, so I quit.  It was a good move.

[Psi]

Sending a letter to a CEO is counterproductive and results in people having a negative vibe about you. The notion of keeping YOU on board as something that is important to the company should come from other people, not yourself. And even then management can decide to make the company less dependant on a single person.

I think this may differ by country.
I suspect employees communicating with the CEO or upper management is just never done in some countries, eg America?

In some parts of the world is more normal when you have a serious problem and it's not getting any attention. They welcome occasional emails on important issues employees may have.  Of course if you go to the CEO with something stupid or you're a Karren then you face the consequences.

[james_s]

I think this may differ by country.
I suspect employees communicating with the CEO or upper management is just never done in some countries, eg America?

In some parts of the world is more normal when you have a serious problem and it's not getting any attention. They welcome occasional emails on important issues employees may have.  Of course if you go to the CEO with something stupid or you're a Karren then you face the consequences.

At small companies employees might interact with the CEO in some cases, a few larger companies such as the one I work for I *could* talk to the CEO if I wanted to without any repercussions, but I wouldn't even consider trying to contact the CEO if I worked at a place like Microsoft, Google, etc. It's just not something you do.

[tggzzz]

Sending a letter to a CEO is counterproductive and results in people having a negative vibe about you. The notion of keeping YOU on board as something that is important to the company should come from other people, not yourself. And even then management can decide to make the company less dependant on a single person.

I think this may differ by country.
I suspect employees communicating with the CEO or upper management is just never done in some countries, eg America?

In some parts of the world is more normal when you have a serious problem and it's not getting any attention. They welcome occasional emails on important issues employees may have.  Of course if you go to the CEO with something stupid or you're a Karren then you face the consequences.

HP pavilion explicitly allowed you to go above your immediate boss. It would be investigated. You could not do it twice.

[nctnico]

Sending a letter to a CEO is counterproductive and results in people having a negative vibe about you. The notion of keeping YOU on board as something that is important to the company should come from other people, not yourself. And even then management can decide to make the company less dependant on a single person.

I think this may differ by country.
I suspect employees communicating with the CEO or upper management is just never done in some countries, eg America?

In some parts of the world is more normal when you have a serious problem and it's not getting any attention. They welcome occasional emails on important issues employees may have.  Of course if you go to the CEO with something stupid or you're a Karren then you face the consequences.

The latter is precisely the problem in the case of the OP: it is very easy to be perceived as somebody who is just complaining about what -in the end- is a personal problem. There is a difference between raising an issue that can have serious consequences for the business as a whole and an issue between employees. And even if you think there is a major problem ahead, it could actually be part of a business strategy you are simply not aware off. IOW: if you want to raise an issue with a CEO or anyone at upper management, be prepared to present an iron clad case to them.

[rstofer]

Sending a letter to a CEO is counterproductive and results in people having a negative vibe about you. The notion of keeping YOU on board as something that is important to the company should come from other people, not yourself. And even then management can decide to make the company less dependant on a single person.

I think this may differ by country.
I suspect employees communicating with the CEO or upper management is just never done in some countries, eg America?

In some parts of the world is more normal when you have a serious problem and it's not getting any attention. They welcome occasional emails on important issues employees may have.  Of course if you go to the CEO with something stupid or you're a Karren then you face the consequences.

HP pavilion explicitly allowed you to go above your immediate boss. It would be investigated. You could not do it twice.

A CEO doesn't have time for petty personnel problems; they should have been resolved by a manager closer to the problem.

Then there is the question about whether a CEO wants an email trail about a product deficiency.  They may not mind finding out in a 'water cooler' conversation but I doubt they want it written down and subpeonable.

[tggzzz]

Sending a letter to a CEO is counterproductive and results in people having a negative vibe about you. The notion of keeping YOU on board as something that is important to the company should come from other people, not yourself. And even then management can decide to make the company less dependant on a single person.

I think this may differ by country.
I suspect employees communicating with the CEO or upper management is just never done in some countries, eg America?

In some parts of the world is more normal when you have a serious problem and it's not getting any attention. They welcome occasional emails on important issues employees may have.  Of course if you go to the CEO with something stupid or you're a Karren then you face the consequences.

HP pavilion explicitly allowed you to go above your immediate boss. It would be investigated. You could not do it twice.

A CEO doesn't have time for petty personnel problems; they should have been resolved by a manager closer to the problem.

Then there is the question about whether a CEO wants an email trail about a product deficiency.  They may not mind finding out in a 'water cooler' conversation but I doubt they want it written down and subpeonable.

HP was notably flat. There were only 5 layers between me and CEO. The HP Way ensured that it was almost unthinkable that they would feel the need to go over their boss let alone all the way to CEO. MBWA was a significant contributor to that.

I once told a new employee/boss how easy it was to access the CEO. He didnt believe me.

After about 6 months the CEO rang him personally   (The CEO told him he was doing a good job, but was unknowingly causing problems with AT&T,so please stop)

[Psi]

The latter is precisely the problem in the case of the OP: it is very easy to be perceived as somebody who is just complaining about what -in the end- is a personal problem.

Yep, that's why I said that he resign at the same time.  It mostly eliminates those suspicions about false complaints because he'd be leaving anyway.  He wouldn't have anything to gain by sending the letter other than giving the CEO a heads-up about the problem.

It very much depends on the company, some CEOs are hands on and always happy to hear about how the company can improve, some hide away and want nothing to do with you.

[virtualparticles]

This is awful. I've been through it a few times though and I feel your pain. Best of luck sir.

[Kasper]

I had my immediate report and the CEO talking to me. "We would like to keep you, but..."
[...]
Deep down, I was aware that it's a toxic management company. I kinda got used to it over the years. I had 6 manager in the past 5 years, they were coming and going. Each one with different requirements on Project management tools, one wanted constant booking of hours, the other was the CEO himself, who was managing us without being in the office for a full day in a week, and not responding to emails.

Bad coworkers come and go.  They become a problem when the boss lets them.  In which case, the boss is a bigger problem and that is difficult to fix.

Sounds like your ceo is the problem.  Lots of turnover in a small company and siding with someone who has been there 1/5 as long as you is not a good sign.

Some prospective employeers look at how long you typically stay at jobs and ask why you left.  I think prospective employees should be asking how many staff are employeed on average, how many leave each year and why they left.

The 2 worst places I worked had high turnover.  Vastly higher than other places I worked.  At both of them, I regretted not leaving as quickly as my coworkers.  I'm actually still at one of them.  The ceo was recently let go and things seem to be improving but I still think I'd have been better off leaving long ago.

I think 5 years is plenty and I don't think potential employeers will scrutinize the reason you left.  If you feel the need to explain, I wouldn't get into the drama and specifics, just mentioning how high their management turnover was should suffice.  That could backfire though, if they suspect you were the cause of the high turnover.  Complimenting the ones that left could help eas those suspicions.  Perhaps one of them could be a reference for you instead of one of the toxic ones that are still there.

It may be frustrating to let this bad coworker cause a change of employement but hopefully in the long run, their impact on your life will be positive.  Maybe they will motivate you to leave that toxic company and find a better one.

[fourfathom]

Yep, that's why I said that he resign at the same time.  It mostly eliminates those suspicions about false complaints because he'd be leaving anyway.  He wouldn't have anything to gain by sending the letter other than giving the CEO a heads-up about the problem.

(I bolded the important part).  He might have something to lose though.  A letter to the CEO will likely do no good whatsoever, and may still damage his career should a prospective employer contact the previous employer for a reference.  Sending a letter to the CEO just looks bad, and you owe them nothing.  If the previous company management wants feedback they will ask for it during an exit interview.

[nctnico]

Yep, that's why I said that he resign at the same time.  It mostly eliminates those suspicions about false complaints because he'd be leaving anyway.  He wouldn't have anything to gain by sending the letter other than giving the CEO a heads-up about the problem.

(I bolded the important part).  He might have something to lose though.  A letter to the CEO will likely do no good whatsoever, and may still damage his career should a prospective employer contact the previous employer for a reference.  Sending a letter to the CEO just looks bad, and you owe them nothing.  If the previous company management wants feedback they will ask for it during an exit interview.

Exactly! Remember it is a small world out there; 6 degrees of seperation ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_degrees_of_separation)! It happens to me regulary that when I talk to a customer that they know several people I have worked with in the past. So burning one bridge leads to a raging forrest fire quickly. Even when asked for feedback, bite your tongue hard and stay positive.

[Nominal Animal]

On the other hand, if all the people on the other side of the bridge are truly horrible and you are sure you never want to be in a project where they are even incidentally involved, then bridge-burning is warranted.

Sure, it may/will reduce job opportunities in the future, but it is more important for ones own sanity to only consider jobs one is suited for.
One does not need a large number of job opportunities to choose from, if the set contains good ones.
Conversely, if all job opportunities are horrible, it may be time to switch careers.

[nctnico]

On the other hand, if all the people on the other side of the bridge are truly horrible and you are sure you never want to be in a project where they are even incidentally involved, then bridge-burning is warranted.

I'm too lazy for that. I just put such people on my mental ignore list. Why dignify horrible people with spending any of your precious time and effort on them?

[themadhippy]

Is a quiet word in a dark  corner of the carpark no longer an option?

[tggzzz]

Yep, that's why I said that he resign at the same time.  It mostly eliminates those suspicions about false complaints because he'd be leaving anyway.  He wouldn't have anything to gain by sending the letter other than giving the CEO a heads-up about the problem.

(I bolded the important part).  He might have something to lose though.  A letter to the CEO will likely do no good whatsoever, and may still damage his career should a prospective employer contact the previous employer for a reference.  Sending a letter to the CEO just looks bad, and you owe them nothing.  If the previous company management wants feedback they will ask for it during an exit interview.

Exactly! Remember it is a small world out there; 6 degrees of seperation ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_degrees_of_separation)! It happens to me regulary that when I talk to a customer that they know several people I have worked with in the past. So burning one bridge leads to a raging forrest fire quickly. Even when asked for feedback, bite your tongue hard and stay positive.

There's a lot of validity in that.

One bridge I don't mind burning is my "Erdos Putin number". Me->relative->wife->mother->Putin

Then there's my "web number" from when I was a kid. Me->Tim Berners-Lee. Haven't seen him since, but did re-meet his lovely parents

[fourfathom]

On the other hand, if all the people on the other side of the bridge are truly horrible and you are sure you never want to be in a project where they are even incidentally involved, then bridge-burning is warranted.

I guess it depends on your definition of bridge-burning, but I suggest just crossing that bridge, and leave your troubles behind on the other side.  Don't turn back and there's no need to burn anything.  You don't want to tarnish your reputation just to make some kind of useless statement.

[james_s]

Yeah it's a small world. Multiple times I've been asked about somebody I used to work with somewhere. I've also bumped into several people that happened to know other people I've worked with.

[Nominal Animal]

I guess it depends on your definition of bridge-burning

Quite.  If it matters, I'm not sure I've ever burned any myself –– figuratively speaking; I'm quite sure I have never burned an actual physical bridge.

There are some people (half a dozen or fewer) whose presence or even incidental involvement will make me nope out right quick, because I do not like how they treat other people and their work.  (They're also from jobs almost a quarter of a century ago.)  That is basically the extent of my bridge burning, I believe.  I've only discussed the details with friends when talking about horrible work experiences, and even then avoid naming names.  Mostly.

It is not like withdrawing from a project or moving on from a job is that big a deal, really.
"I do not believe I would be a good fit in this particular project/task/job" is a pretty complete but polite explanation to anyone who asks.

Funnily enough, I have one kinda-sorta inverted case: there was a software project long ago that I had to maintain/support for a few years as a paid job, written by people I actually like... but the software was so horrible copy-paste spaghetti I developed a serious dislike of Perl that still afflicts me today.

[fourfathom]

This conversation reminds me of one employee I had to work with.  He talked the talk for a while, but became incredibly disruptive, non-productive, and actually unethical.  Once we managed to fire him he next turned up as a founder of a competing startup, with $2 million in venture funding (which is another story).  He had claimed that our company's big success was largely due to his brilliance (nothing could have been further from the truth.)  His new company quickly crashed and burned, with him literally (!) being dragged out of the building by armed guards.

On topic, after that he sent out an open letter to "the networking industry" where he blamed his many failures on other people and a general industry conspiracy against him.  The letter was broadly circulated for it's "WTF? You've got to be kidding me!" value, and it made him look like a deluded sociopath. I'm not saying that the "letter to the CEO" being discussed in this thread is anything like that, but this story might still be helpful if anyone is considering something similar.

I don't know where he is now, but if you run into someone who describes himself as "First ever Telecom Eagle, a networking & telecom visionary" take my advice and run away as far and as fast as you can.

[Someone]

Yeah it's a small world. Multiple times I've been asked about somebody I used to work with somewhere. I've also bumped into several people that happened to know other people I've worked with.

When chatting to colleagues socially:
colleague found out who their new direct manager was after re-organisation at company A, "I moved here [country] to get away from that person"
working at company B, talking to another ex-employee of company A, "I remember that person, everyone avoided dealing with them"

Some times a good company can have some really terrible people inside them, so much that people will leave the company for that single employees presence. Those are the people that management need to know about, as the turnover/exodus may not make sense when the normal reporting lines aren't going to mention it.

[fourfathom]

Some times a good company can have some really terrible people inside them, so much that people will leave the company for that single employees presence. Those are the people that management need to know about

Which is why a company should conduct an exit interview, at least when someone quits.  Even then, during your exit interview don't go on and on with a long litany of the problems and insults you've suffered.  Keep it short and sweet.

[MikeK]

This conversation reminds me of one employee I had to work with.  He talked the talk for a while, but became incredibly disruptive, non-productive, and actually unethical.  Once we managed to fire him he next turned up as a founder of a competing startup, with $2 million in venture funding (which is another story).  He had claimed that our company's big success was largely due to his brilliance (nothing could have been further from the truth.)  His new company quickly crashed and burned, with him literally (!) being dragged out of the building by armed guards.

On topic, after that he sent out an open letter to "the networking industry" where he blamed his many failures on other people and a general industry conspiracy against him.  The letter was broadly circulated for it's "WTF? You've got to be kidding me!" value, and it made him look like a deluded sociopath.

It sounds like he *is* a sociopath.  Blaming others for your own faults is a classic sign.  There are lots of sociopaths/psychopaths out there.  The key for the rest of us is learning how to deal with them and how not to let them mess up *our* lives.

[dastructhm]

fourfathom's replies always seem down to earth. I like the dude.

[fourfathom]

fourfathom's replies always seem down to earth. I like the dude.

Thank you!  That actually means a lot to me.  But this means it's probably a time for a disclaimer:

I've not had the typical "EE degree to engineer" career path: I started out as a non-degreed technician (actually, I started out at the age of 11 or 12, in my friend's dad's garage where we all were playing with war-surplus radios.) I progressed through the ranks as a tech, junior engineer (still no degree), engineer, lead engineer, product architect, director of engineering, Distinguished Engineer, and a few more respectable titles.  I still have no degree.

I've always worked in California, mainly 1970s to 2001 when I retired.  I've only worked at small and mid-sized companies, at least until the company was acquired, the last one acquired by Cisco.  I'm 68 now, and in my retirement have spent the last 21 years playing with electronics (and lots of other activities) and I guess considering the philosophy of engineering, obviously from my own point of view and experience.  In retrospect I have realized (or confirmed) that I *am* an engineer to my core, and will always be one.  It's been a remarkably fulfilling vocation in so many ways, and I care about it deeply.

I've never worked outside of California (other than visiting other companies and conferences).  I've hired and fired.  I've been hired and fired.  I've worked as a tech or engineer at eight different companies (not counting company name changes due to acquisitions).

So: Driver is an (un)trained professional on a closed course.  Do not attempt this at home.  Your mileage may vary. Past performance is no guarantee of future results.  Offer not valid outside of California.

But people are people everywhere, so I suspect that some of my comments are going to be generally helpful.