It's "sodder", not "soLder", damnit! (for us USAians)

[tooki]

... such as changing the spelling of "tire" to "tyre".

Seems logical to me: vastly different meanings. There should be a rule that a particular spelling can only mean one thing 

Once we've exhausted this, how about starting on punctuation?

The point is that “tire” is not an American corruption of “tyre” (as the British often assume), but rather that the whole world originally spelled it “tire” and then the UK independently changed to “tyre”. One can argue whether that is a good or bad change, but the point is that it was the UK that changed its spelling, not USA.

You're seeing something that isn't there and then berating me for it! I don't care who originated the original word or who may or may not have had it corrupted. The only thing I was commenting on was the change to a different spelling.

I don’t know what it is you think I’m seeing, and I didn’t berate you in any way, shape, or form! All I commented on was the evolution of the “tyre” spelling.

Then your comment was completely irrelevant to mine, and by attaching it you've confused the issues. Just show how you thought I was discussing who made up what word, or admit you commented to the wrong post, please.

LOL.

[zike]

This must be the second dumbest thread I ever posted to. And yet, here I am.

Just curious if any native Polish speakers out there could weigh in on an alternate theory. Taking the "L" in question as a "dark" or "velarized" L (in Polish printed "Ł", like a Latin "L" with a hash mark) could explain all. This is conventionally pronounced as a "W" sound.*  Of course this is missing from anglo-Latin typewriters, so a Pole reading the word in English-language correspondence could well presume it's pronounced "saw-der." 

*as in "War"; whereas the "W" in Polish is pronounced as an English "V," as in "Victory."  So, for example, a Polish friend of mine who signs his email "Slawek" pronounces it as I'd pronounce "Swavek."

[Analog Kid]

Heh; for all the flak I've taken here ("how could you be so fookin' stoopid as to start this stoopid discusson?"), folks seem to be getting a good deal of mileage out of it. Some interesting linguistic nuggets here and there.

Which is kinda gratifying, to be honest.

[IanB]

This must be the second dumbest thread I ever posted to. And yet, here I am.Just curious if any native Polish speakers out there could weigh in on an alternate theory. Taking the "L" in question as a "dark" or "velarized" L (in Polish printed "Ł", like a Latin "L" with a hash mark) could explain all. This is conventionally pronounced as a "W" sound.*  Of course this is missing from anglo-Latin typewriters, so a Pole reading the word in English-language correspondence could well presume it's pronounced "saw-der."

In British English, the L in solder is indeed a dark L, but in English, dark L (phonetic [ɫ]) is not pronounced like W (or Polish letter Ł). They are two distinct sounds.

[temperance]

Which is kinda gratifying, to be honest.

Anyhow better than the bickering you were after as stated in your first post.

[Analog Kid]

Which is kinda gratifying, to be honest.

Anyhow better than the bickering you were after as stated in your first post.

Whatever.

[SteveThackery]

Regarding pronouncing the letter 'l' (ell) as 'ooo', Londoners don't know they do it, but I can say for sure that they do - I have family from London.

What you are describing is seemingly called L-vocalisation. Normally the L in a word like milk is a "dark L", pronounced with the back of the tongue (unlike a "light L", pronounced with the front of the tongue). But in some accents, like Cockney, the dark L can get vocalized into a W or OO sound. This vocalization never happens with a light L. the word "light" never becomes wight.

"Shoulder" is a good word to compare with "solder", actually. When I say shoulder, I don't really say the L. The vowel sound just glides into the D, and the L sort of disappears. That is what a dark L means. Now replace the SH with an S and you get solder. They sound exactly the same in my accent, apart from the initial consonant.

I come from the East Midlands in the UK, and I absolutely do pronounce the 'L' in both 'shoulder' and 'solder'. Apart from Londoners, I've never heard the L disappear in either of those words. Whereabouts are you from?

[paulca]

For what it's worth the so/sol prefix is pronounced in diffenet ways depending on what you follow it with.

Consider the single sylable name for our star.  "Sol".    I believe the common pronunciation is similar to "Fall".  But note, not "Sall" which is pronounced like the shortened name "Sally".

You could possibly also have "Sole", "Soul" etc.

Which IS exacly what you switch to when you add the "ar".  It's "soul/sole-ar".  "Summer soul/sole-tiss".  A "Sole-er-ee-um"

I pronounce "Solder" as the former variant of "sol".  "sol-der".  To pronounce it "Soul-der" would sound more than you miss spoke the world "Solider" which itself is a wierd one.  It takes the "Soul" prefix, but the ider turns  into a "Jure/Zur" sound.  soul-jure.

[SteveThackery]

I pronounce "Solder" as the former variant of "sol".  "sol-der".  To pronounce it "Soul-der" would sound more than you miss spoke the world "Solider" which itself is a wierd one.  It takes the "Soul" prefix, but the ider turns  into a "Jure/Zur" sound.  soul-jure.

So you say "soll-der"? I have heard English people say it like that, but I think "soul-der" is far more common.

The Cambridge dictionary agrees with me. It demonstrates the UK pronunciation as "soul-der" and the American as "sodder". It doesn't have "soll-der", although obviously it's perfectly legitimate.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/pronunciation/english/solder

[paulca]

I just scanned through a few YouTube videos on Soldering and only two came out.  "soddering" or sol-der.

I have never heard someone say Sole-der.  Or soul-der. Ever.

Even "Great scott" with his "european" accent says "sol-der".

Sol as in fall, hall, ball.  Like twice in "Calder hall".

[SteveThackery]

I just scanned through a few YouTube videos on Soldering and only two came out.  "soddering" or sol-der.

I have never heard someone say Sole-der.  Or soul-der. Ever.

Even "Great scott" with his "european" accent says "sol-der".

Sol as in fall, hall, ball.  Like twice in "Calder hall".

Oh, wait, that's different again! Fall, hall and ball have a long vowel sound. That is nothing like the short vowel sound in "sodder". My point is that "Sol" - as in the name of our sun - has the short vowel sound, yet you say it with the long sound from 'Saul'?

So you say "Saul-der"?? Really? You must be the only person in Britain to say it like that! 😄

I bet you didn’t bother to listen to the pronunciation given by the Cambridge dictionary. Do me a favour and check it out:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/pronunciation/english/solder

It is definitely and indisputably pronounced "soul-der". That is the usual British pronunciation. "Saul-der" is unique to you; "Soll-der" is said occasionally in Britain, but it's rare. "Soul-der" is standard.

I'm aware that we are trying to express vowel sounds using common words instead of the official notation for English pronunciation. That could be why we disagree.

And by the way, the vowel sounds in Calder Hall are definitely NOT the same! I say Calder with a short vowel sound like this: "coll-der haul".

What part of Britain is your accent from?

[IanB]

I come from the East Midlands in the UK, and I absolutely do pronounce the 'L' in both 'shoulder' and 'solder'. Apart from Londoners, I've never heard the L disappear in either of those words. Whereabouts are you from?

I grew up in the north London suburbs. My accent would be close to "standard southern British". If I say the world "shoulder" slowly and carefully, then the L becomes more pronounced. But if I say it normally in casual speech, then the L is hardly there. But in any case the L is a "dark L", with a different sound to a "light L".

Consider the word "film". The word conventionally is pronounced with a dark L. But have you ever heard an Irish person say it as fillem? That would be how it sounds like if you change the dark L to a light L.

[IanB]

I come from the East Midlands in the UK, and I absolutely do pronounce the 'L' in both 'shoulder' and 'solder'. Apart from Londoners, I've never heard the L disappear in either of those words. Whereabouts are you from?

For instance, if you go to that Cambridge pronunciation dictionary, and listen to the UK pronunciation of "fold".

Notice how the vowel (like the soul vowel) kind of glides into the D, almost skipping over the L? That's what I am referring to. Yes, the L is kind of there, but it is really not forward in the pronunciation. It almost is a bit like an OO sound.

[Geoff-AU]

But we havent even gotten to the SI vs metric wars yet!!! 

The educated Yanks use metric.  I don't think any of them have tried to use Imperial since 1998:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Climate_Orbiter#Cause_of_failure

The primary cause of this discrepancy was that one piece of ground software supplied by Lockheed Martin produced results in a United States customary unit, contrary to its Software Interface Specification (SIS), while a second system, supplied by NASA, expected those results to be in SI units, in accordance with the SIS.

[paulca]

What part of Britain is your accent from?

Northern Ireland, which might explain some things, but not my hearing of it "sol".  If I listen to the dictionary pronounciation you sent, first click I was like yes, that "sol-der".  Then I clicked it again and again... you are right they are saying soul-der. 

We so say things like "Par!" for Power" and Shar for shower.

[Analog Kid]

The educated Yanks use metric.  I don't think any of them have tried to use Imperial since 1998:

If you're talking about engineers and scientists, then yes.
But for the ordinary person, no:
Building materials: feet and inches. 4'x8' sheets of plywood, OSB, etc., not 1220 mm × 2440 mm.
Paper: inches (our "letter" size is 8-1/2" x 11").
Beverages: pints, quarts and gallons live side by side with liters.
Distances: miles.
Temperature: Fahrenheit.

[PlainName]

Yup. T'other day I downloaded a calibration cube for my printer. Sides were 16.88mm... huh? Thought my printer was off, but it's actually 2/3 inch

[Analog Kid]

Yup. T'other day I downloaded a calibration cube for my printer. Sides were 16.88mm... huh? Thought my printer was off, but it's actually 2/3 inch

Huh? indeed; by my calculation that should be 16.94mm (using the conversion ratio of 1" = 25.4mm).

[kjpye]

Yup. T'other day I downloaded a calibration cube for my printer. Sides were 16.88mm... huh? Thought my printer was off, but it's actually 2/3 inch

Huh? indeed; by my calculation that should be 16.94mm (using the conversion ratio of 1" = 2.54mm).

My calculator (or at least the app on my phone) says that 1" (actually 25.4mm) multiplied by 2 and divided by 3 is 16.93...mm

Obviously 2/3" must be less than 25.4mm (1`")

[brucehoult]

Building materials: feet and inches. 4'x8' sheets of plywood, OSB, etc., not 1220 mm × 2440 mm.

They're 1200 x 2400.

And "four by two" is easier to say than 100x50.

And TVs, monitors, phones are in inches, though I bet fewer than one person in 10 knows what is actually measured, they only know bigger is better.

Beverages: pints, quarts and gallons live side by side with liters.
Distances: miles.
Temperature: Fahrenheit.

We switched from UK units to SI in the early 70s when I was around 10 years old. I'm decently familiar with both.

You'll hear older people (older than me!) refer to miles sometimes still. I don't actually know what a teenager now would make of that.

It's many decades since I've heard of any liquid measure referred to in UK units except maybe a pint in the pub, but that's usually called a "handle". And 44 gal drums, which is more of a name than a measure.

Even my parents and grandparents dropped the illogical Fahrenheit basically instantly. I haven't heard it from anyone except USAians in maybe 50 years. Not even in cooking ... I guarantee when my 87 year old mother puts something in the oven she thinks "180 for 45 minutes" not "350".

NZers have for a century prided themselves on being able to fix anything with a bit of number eight fencing wire, and I think everyone can still recognise that on sight, even through new fences switched to high tensile 12 1/2 half a century ago. I don't know whether farmers now refer to it as 2.5mm. Solar panel cable is for sure 4mm or 6mm (cross section not diameter).

[Analog Kid]

And "four by two" is easier to say than 100x50.

True, but nobody calls them that here: they're two-by-fours. (Confusingly to those who don't handle them regularly, ackshooly 1-1/2" x 3-1/2", or something close to that. We don't have to go through the whole "they start out at 2" x 4" rough-cut before surfacing" thing, do we?)

[SteveThackery]

What part of Britain is your accent from?

Northern Ireland, which might explain some things, but not my hearing of it "sol".  If I listen to the dictionary pronounciation you sent, first click I was like yes, that "sol-der".  Then I clicked it again and again... you are right they are saying soul-der. 

We so say things like "Par!" for Power" and Shar for shower.

Ah, that explains it! The Northern Ireland accent is a long, long way from standard Southern English. 😄 That's cool, and it explains our different interpretations of written vowel sounds.

[brucehoult]

And "four by two" is easier to say than 100x50.

True, but nobody calls them that here: they're two-by-fours. (Confusingly to those who don't handle them regularly, ackshooly 1-1/2" x 3-1/2", or something close to that. We don't have to go through the whole "they start out at 2" x 4" rough-cut before surfacing" thing, do we?)

I can assure you I have never in my life heard anyone in this country call them "two-by-fours". You have four-by-twos, six-by-twos, six-by-fours and of course various square sections. The larger number goes first. Always.

Your local usage may differ but that's how it is here.

[m k]

Being down under clearly affects you.

[PlainName]

Yup. T'other day I downloaded a calibration cube for my printer. Sides were 16.88mm... huh? Thought my printer was off, but it's actually 2/3 inch

Huh? indeed; by my calculation that should be 16.94mm (using the conversion ratio of 1" = 25.4mm).

Yes, it was a bit off, but then what else could it be?

That's the problem with imperial for engineering: so many schemes, each of which might be close but Not The One.