Microsoft buys GitHub (CONFIRMED)

[CM800]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-03/microsoft-is-said-to-have-agreed-to-acquire-coding-site-github

The software maker has agreed to acquire GitHub, the code-repository company popular with many software developers, and could announce the deal as soon as Monday, according to people familiar with the matter.

So, Microsoft is now talking about buying GitHub,

how do people feel about this?

[Mr. Scram]

It's probably good for Github in the long run and will inevitably mean an even more seamless integration with things like Visual Studio. It does mean Microsoft will add it to the hivemind and I'm not sure how I feel about that. I'm noticing an increasing unease about how a few companies are controlling and logging a lot of our information while doing very diverse and often unrelated things.

[Rerouter]

If windows 10 and office365 hadn't rubbed me wrong, I'd probably be OK with it, at this point I'm stuck on the Windows 7 sinking ship watching my options blip out,

Now Microsoft actively uses github in house heavily, So at a guess, they cannot do any large sweeping changes without annoying your own in house programmers, This should keep the functionality side similar,

Privacy of IP, that is more concerning. Not to mention it will probably give them insider knowledge on its competitors, e.g. what new features they have been investing time into. 

[bd139]

Github has been a bit of a turd for a while. This is just pushing people over the edge now.

[NivagSwerdna]

I'm stuggling to care about the ownership, it's just a public repo?

I have privately hosted stash and some open source projects on github and some not so open on gitlab.  they are just git repos?

[Karel]

When the deal is a fact, I'll move my repo's to another one, very likely Gitlab.

Some people say that microsoft has changed and is not that hostile to open source anymore. Could be. Could be not.
But as long as they haven't publicly apologized for their criminal behaviour and show something that restores the trust,
I don't want to deal with them.

"Trust arrives on foot but leaves on horseback"

[bd139]

Same old MS behind the scenes. In the enterprise space, we get a lot of worse shit than we ever did from them at the moment. Happy shiny facade over the same turd. They only love open source because it serves their end, for now.

Always remember Emperor Ming's wedding vows when dealing with MSFT:

[DimitriP]

Blast from the past:
https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/bharry/2015/03/12/the-future-of-team-foundation-version-control/

[langwadt]

right now on gitlab

https://www.dropbox.com/s/uzg9vc5oljr8lin/Screenshot%202018-06-03%2015.52.52.png?dl=0

[bd139]

That's because people remember this:

http://www.catb.org/esr/halloween/

They only changed tactics because that didn't work. Remember that.

[kfnight]

MS definitely made GitHub an offer they couldn't refuse. $7.5 billion is bonkers.

[apis]

If windows 10 and office365 hadn't rubbed me wrong, I'd probably be OK with it, at this point I'm stuck on the Windows 7 sinking ship watching my options blip out

Linux has a steep learning curve but it's worth it.

[ataradov]

Yeah, I'll wait a bit, but in the mean time I've created an account on BitBucket and will investigate some self-hosted options.

This sucks. Also, I'm not sure I will continue to pay for GitHub. In fact, I will not. My subscription is up for renewal in 10 days, and that's enough time to move private repos to some other service.

[bob225]

Tin foil hat on, MS are just data mining for there AI, and anything else is a Patent grab


If people don't like the 'new' GitHub they will vote with there feet imho

[DimitriP]

MS definitely made GitHub an offer they couldn't refuse. $7.5 billion is bonkers.

Another microsoft "innovation by writing a check^*"


^* used generically as a form of payment

[james_s]

Well, if they make it suck then I'll switch to a different service. If it continues to meet my needs then I'll stick with it. In the meantime I'm not going to worry about it, Github is not particularly unique.

[Mr. Scram]

Another microsoft "innovation by writing a check^*"


^* used generically as a form of payment

That's what all the big fish do. Gobble up anything interesting before it grows too big or competition gets to it.

[langwadt]

Another microsoft "innovation by writing a check^*"


^* used generically as a form of payment

That's what all the big fish do. Gobble up anything interesting before it grows too big or competition gets to it.

https://www.economist.com/business/2018/06/02/american-tech-giants-are-making-life-tough-for-startups

[chickenHeadKnob]

I hear they have done wonderful things with skype, Nokia, ect. after those acquisitions. (ducks).
I expect github to follow the same trajectory. Is there anything they touch that isn't ruined?

[timelessbeing]

Well if they make it like their other free service (hotmail), then expect ads. Unless you pay for the "pro" version.

Personally, I don't care for Microshit software. I find it very buggy and user-unfriendly.

[IanMacdonald]

Personally, I don't care for Microshit software. I find it very buggy and user-unfriendly.

Occasionally they come out with something really good, but then decide that they can make more money by forcing everyone to replace it.

Replace it with a pile of poo.

Only one of our clients has so far expressed a wish to use Windows 10. We have one Win10 computer here, it's mainly used to test websites in Edge. Rest of the time it's powered off.

On the Linux front, Mint is quite easy to transition to from Windows. Plus they seem to have solved a lot of the annoyances with the base distros like Debian, for example WiFi usually works out of box. 

[ChunkyPastaSauce]

Anyone remember Microsofts now defunct CodePlex site for open-source? https://archive.codeplex.com/
I hope they don't start removing projects they don't necessarily support (interoperability projects that allows components to be used by non-microsoft stuff, tools that modifies system in non official ways, tracking removal etc)

[maginnovision]

People keep complaining about nokia and skype. Neither of them was any good before or after so it's a moot point(I owned lumia phones exclusively from the 900 to the 1520, now using an hp elite x3). Might be a good idea to look at satya nadellas guidance since he's been in charge and stop worrying about what ballmer did/would do. Microsoft is just another company run by people.

Sometimes it pays to be a reasoning rational person instead of someone jumping on the bandwagon. Especially if it's the "durr" bandwagon expressing their dislike for the very successful microsoft corporation(+.87%). Let's not forget they've only announced their intention and the deal itself would not happen this year, or at the very end.

[ataradov]

Well, they do continue to rape Skype even now. Native version for Linux does not work anymore without a patch (they intentionally broke it, and patch disables the breakage). On Windows 10 they force Skype  from the windows store, and that piece of crap can't even minimize into the icon. It just sits there in the task bar, like anyone wants to look at it all day long.

People are weary for a reason. Microsoft has been very bad at being user friendly even recently.

[maginnovision]

Microsoft wasn't even going to bother with skype for linux, using azure resources, but people wanted it so they did. I'm not familiar with them intentionally breaking anything but a patch fixing sounds like problem solved. Complaining about UI decisions hardly qualifies as rape. I don't use or like skype and if you don't like it you shouldn't use it either.

[ataradov]

Microsoft wasn't even going to bother with skype for linux,

Exactly. What makes you think that they will bother with open project on GitHub? Especially competing ones?

but a patch fixing sounds like problem solved.

That is just some sed script that replaces a couple bytes in the binary, essentially removing a check for a version or something like that. They broke it intentionally go make users move to their new bloated version.

I don't use or like skype and if you don't like it you shouldn't use it either.

I'd be glad to not use anything Microsoft, but there is a number of people that I want to talk to only available on Skype.

[maginnovision]

Wait, so they have a version that works you just refuse to use it? That's a personal problem. I'm not sure what you mean with the first point though. They have alot of open source projects on github.

[ataradov]

Wait, so they have a version that works you just refuse to use it? That's a personal problem. I'm not sure what you mean with the first point though.

The "new version" is just a web page packaged with a browser. It barely works and can't do video calls. That's the basic pattern with Microsoft - as time goes on, the software becomes less functional  and more bloated at the same time.

[maginnovision]

I think that's how most versions of everything are going. Dont bother creating a real app just something for a browser you can repackage in an executable file. They can rely alot more on various toolkits to do alot of work rather than doing it themselves. I think there are enough developers like me around, linux and windows, that there is no reason to kill github support considering it'll likely be just maintenance releases unless they add features.

Worst case, windows or linux, you can get just about anything to work with a vm.

[james_s]

The trend throughout the software industry is heading more and more toward hack something together and ship it now, fix it "later", relying on the end users for QA. It's hard to pick on a specific company here because they pretty much ALL are doing something like this now. It gets called "Agile" but in practice it seems most places pick and choose a few aspects of the Agile process, skip the hard parts and slap that name on whatever process they end up with. There is so much focus on the "minimum viable product" which as a customer sucks because I don't want to buy the minimum viable product, let me know when you have a finished product and I'll consider it. Not that software is ever completely finished, but there is a point where all the show stopper bugs have been fixed, all the advertised features are present, and it is generally fit for purpose.

Frequent updates are touted as a feature, but most of the time it seems the bulk of these updates are things that should have been done before it ever went out the door.

[Marco]

I doubt Microsoft is going to do anything intentionally evil, apart from datamining people. I don't see how they are ever going to recoup that money though, that's just ludicrous.

[ataradov]

I doubt Microsoft is going to do anything intentionally evil

They won't do anything intentional. The problem is that their view of "good" is generally indistinguishable from what normal people see as evil.  Next thing you know, you are struggling to postpone updates and disable Cortana while using Edge.

[langwadt]

Wait, so they have a version that works you just refuse to use it? That's a personal problem. I'm not sure what you mean with the first point though.

The "new version" is just a web page packaged with a browser. It barely works and can't do video calls. That's the basic pattern with Microsoft - as time goes on, the software becomes less functional  and more bloated at the same time.

I don't remember doing anything special to run skype on ubuntu and video works

[ataradov]

I don't remember doing anything special to run skype on ubuntu and video works

It is a reasonably recent update (2-3 months, maybe).

[carljrb]

at this point I'm stuck on the Windows 7 sinking ship watching my options blip out

Same here Windows 10 is a *complete* disaster and it's only getting worse, but there's no real alternatives for a huge amount of Windows-only software.

Also, goodbye github. We've already been using gitlab at work for sometime (self-hosted VM), so it's the obvious choice for me.

[maginnovision]

at this point I'm stuck on the Windows 7 sinking ship watching my options blip out

Same here Windows 10 is a *complete* disaster and it's only getting worse, but there's no real alternatives for a huge amount of Windows-only software.

Also, goodbye github. We've already been using gitlab at work for sometime (self-hosted VM), so it's the obvious choice for me.

I don't know how it's a disaster but I suppose if that's how you see it. I've always used "Pro" windows versions for HW/SW development computers and this time around it keeps you from forced updates which seems to be linux peoples biggest issue. Just about everything people consider "the big problem" is easy to toggle. There is alot of misinformation out there but I generally let people stick to their incorrect facts.

I think it's sort of laughable the number of people on twitter claiming this is the end of github.

I doubt Microsoft is going to do anything intentionally evil, apart from datamining people. I don't see how they are ever going to recoup that money though, that's just ludicrous.

Still won't be bad as Nokia. At least it's still something people want and something they use themselves.

[Mr. Scram]

For the love of  Darwin, can we have one thread without people bawling their eyes out about how evil Microsoft is or how they are ruining Windows with 10? Regardless of how true it is, the incessant nagging is grating.

[timelessbeing]

So you clicked on a topic which is about Microsoft, and you're mad that people are talking about it. 

[Mr. Scram]

So you clicked on a topic which is about Microsoft, and you're mad that people are talking about it. 

You know perfectly well that's not what I said. I'm in the mood to wrestle a troll today.

[bd139]

As humans we reserve our right to bitch about everything 

[timelessbeing]

You said

can we have one thread without people bawling their eyes out about how evil Microsoft is

It's a topic about Microsoft acquiring a website based on open source software. Did I miss something?

[ataradov]

I migrated one of my private projects to GitLab, and I like it more than GitHub. So that problem is solved. GitHub has ease of discovery going for it, but if more people move to GitLab, it will be fine too.

[borjam]

I don't think it's really bad at all.

Note that I can't stand using Windows for a minute, I can get violent and all. I've always worked on Unix systems except for software development I had to do in OS/2 in the early 90's.

That said, Microsoft today is a really different company from the f**g retards they were in the past. No more bullying trying to force their crap down your throat. No more sabotaging of "alternative operating systems ("alternative" in their wishful "Just Windows™" universe). They are even contributing to Linux and FreeBSD so that it runs smoothly on Azure.

Now I even have a piece of Microsoft software (Visual Code) and I'm reasonably happy with it. Some friends said that hell froze below 0 K, but well, Microsoft has changed a lot.

Lately they are being reasonably good citizens. So I wouldn't worry. Nowadays I would trust them much better than Google.

[bd139]

Really though, for private projects, do you even need gitlab or github? I only use it as a convenience when I have to collaborate on a project with non technical users. Technical users, we run a mailing list and mail patches to it. Patch master has the job of assembling it into a product / project and gating it into the canonical published repository. This is actually how git is supposed to work in theory.

A git repo will quite happily work for a single or multiple users without ever even having a central point.

Also there are better VCS out there which handle all the meta-information around the code: http://fossil-scm.org/

[ataradov]

I use private repos for easy deployment on multiple machines. Additional backup does not hurt either.

[bd139]

Backup only backs up the remote repo state, not the local one. Completely separate problem. If you have stashed changes, private branches, spikes etc then you don't gain anything from pushing master or feature branches to another node. Need to back up locally as well.

Deployments; push the branch to the deployment machine and add a hook to do the deployment.

I might start a git re-education programme on the Internet. The centralisation is just so wrong.

[Mr. Scram]

It's a topic about Microsoft acquiring a website based on open source software. Did I miss something?

Nobody's biting the second time either. Move along.

[Nominal Animal]

This reminds me of 2010, when Stephen Elop was hired as the CEO of Nokia. Us Linux folks knew immediately that based on his past actions at Microsoft, Nokia's Linux development would be killed, Nokia would move to Windows Phones, and because they won't sell (Microsoft has only ever been able to compete as a monopoly), eventually Nokia would be in such a bad state Microsoft would buy it. Everyone called us conspiracy mongers, tinfoil hat long-haired smellies, and whatnot. Yet, we were right, on every single point. Even if "analysts" afterwards claimed that no-one could have predicted it..

It is not because there was a conspiracy or anything, it was because that is the way Microsoft (and officers hired by Microsoft, pun intended) operates.  Whatever will become of Github, it will be twisted just like everything else Microsoft acquires.  Ignoring the past behaviour of the company is just sheer idiocy.

If you're a happy Microsoft customer, then good for ya; you probably won't be burned by this.  Everyone else should consider the purchase price, past Microsoft behaviour, and draw their own conclusions.

[bd139]

Actually I don't think they genuinely did that one on purpose. The windows phones were pretty good to start with. I had a Lumia 710 and it was at the time the best handset I had used and to this day one of the finest bits of kit there ever was.

The problem with MSFT is they built the original codebase on Zune / Windows CE which was circling the drain already. This happened because MinWin (Windows NT refactor) was late because it was harder than it looked. They decided to move it over to Windows NT after that but this meant a rewrite and porting of a large quantity of apps. Also they abandoned the original hardware and the users with it. That and the subsequent push for "windows 10 on everything" and their inability to carry out the job just buried it further as everyone was fed up of the poor management.

They could have won with windows phone. It was cheaper, more reliable and had a better user experience than all competitors but as usual with microsoft, they fucked up the architecture, roadmap and feature set too many times.

Microsoft are schitzophrenic and run at a crazy idea velocity. That's the biggest risk. One minute they're doing X, then you're behind the curve before you've even finished porting everything to X because Y just came out and deprecated X and they're already blogging about Z.

What they do is pretty good but you can't rely on it either staying that way or actually getting far enough through a product lifecycle to fix all the bugs and not fuck you over.

Also another killer for me is I might as well burn what I know today because tomorrow it'll be worth nothing. I got good at C, really good, and that knowledge has taken me through many projects. You can't get good with their frameworks or applications because they change faster than you can get good at them.

Edit: applying this to github. Watch it turn into a moving target that no one can hit, then die.

[RoGeorge]

Microsoft buys GitHub will be bad for everybody, except maybe for Microsoft.

It will be bad even for the Git itself, because Microsoft always EEE.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish

[Nominal Animal]

It will be bad even for the Git itself, because Microsoft always EEE.

Only if people actually keep using GitHub, or Microsoft's forthcoming fork of the git protocols and utilities.

I wonder what kind of "helpful" mascot they'll push with their mutant version of git? Gitty?

[bd139]

Probably recycle the old insider mascot marketing.

Pretty well describes windows 10. Ok so we've got this dinosaur now lets hack some shit on the front of it and make the marketing team ride it and wow windows 10.

[Dave]

Just deleted my account. Screw them.

[luiHS]

 
A terrifying news, since the big ones are buying the smallest to end up creating monopolies of dominion. Between Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg, they are keeping all the valuable products, a dangerous technological dictatorship.

It's time to migrate to Gitlab.

What will be the next, Bill Gates buys Linux, Gates or Zuckerberg pay to become presidents of the United States ?.  Terrible technological dictatorship based on pay to get it all.

[typematrix]

I hope they leave the github pages section alone,  free website  ,  got my tech blog on it.

[maginnovision]

Here is a decent story on this.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/06/everyone-complaining-about-microsoft-buying-github-needs-to-offer-a-better-solution/

[bd139]

I’ve got a better solution. Use git as a distributed VCS! You don’t need github. It isn’t worth anything really.

Don’t need gitlab either!

[ataradov]

I’ve got a better solution. Use git as a distributed VCS! You don’t need github. It isn’t worth anything really.

One of the biggest advantages of GitHub (and others) is centralization and exposure of projects.  Sure if you are working on a big and well-known project, then having your own thing is fine. In my case (and many others) projects are small, and minimizing friction for users and contributors is a necessary thing. I see many contributions to my projects because people can quickly find the project, clone it, and submit a pull request.

You may like it or not, but GitHub and other centralized systems are what made Git mainstream.

And after playing with GitLab for a couple days, I like it more than GitHub, and will gladly pay them money, so they can stay alive longer than GitHub did. I'd really like to see their cost structure, most likely they just got real fat and hired a bunch of unnecessary people.

[bd139]

Gitweb?

[ataradov]

It has pretty atrocious interface. Sure, you can get used to whatever, but why? The better service (as indicated by the number of users) is out there, why not use it?

Also, you need to run a server for gitweb assuming all responsibilities for security and maintenance. I don't want to play sysadmin for more than I absolutely have to. I'd rather pay money and get the service.

I could understand if it was some locked in thing. But migrating between those services is very easy, and if it turns out that none of them can be sustainable, then inferior options are a good fallback.

[bitwelder]

but if more people move to GitLab, it will be fine too.

Statistics of projects moving from Github to Gitlab:

https://monitor.gitlab.net/dashboard/db/github-importer?orgId=1

[Marco]

[so they can stay alive longer than GitHub did.

I doubt Gitlab is alive enough to turn down 30x their yearly revenue ... unless they think there is a bigger fool out there.

[ataradov]

I doubt Gitlab is alive enough to turn down 30x their yearly revenue ... unless they think there is a bigger fool out there.

I was talking more about just plain going out of business. You obviously don't turn down $5bn offer No blame here, if they can sell for half that, they should just go for it.

[Karel]

[thermistor-guy]

...I wonder what kind of "helpful" mascot they'll push with their mutant version of git? Gitty?

I'm hoping Tay, the cancelled AI bot. Think of the brand recognition 

[onesixright]

Thank you, exactly my thoughts, a picture is worth a thousand words.

When will MS finally go belly up? I know their customer base invested billions in some vendor-locked in solution, but they learn? Will they ever

[amyk]

I just hope they don't go after the more "interesting" stuff on there (datasheets, schematics, etc. )

[Beamin]

It's probably good for Github in the long run and will inevitably mean an even more seamless integration with things like Visual Studio. It does mean Microsoft will add it to the hivemind and I'm not sure how I feel about that. I'm noticing an increasing unease about how a few companies are controlling and logging a lot of our information while doing very diverse and often unrelated things.

Bill gates is like the Corporate borg queen. Eventually all companies WILL be assimilated and resistance IS futile. I welcome the day we only have one company which will be Wall/applesoft/exxon/monstanto/Koch/mart. We will work for credits to buy things at the place we work for; like bitcoins but completely controlled. They already do this in china; whole towns owned by a company, people even have employee weddings in mass where you marry your coworkers and all shops/housing/utilities are owned by the factory. 21st century slavery. Worker strikes are met with tear gas and clubs. Not just in china the people that build trumps golf course in Dubai are perpetually in debt and can't get their passports without paying it off and they are kept in "housing" that has rents at American prices but at $1.00/hr pay, a hundred miles into desert so there is no escape. At least with the real borg you get to travel around the galaxy and don't have to worry about being poor. Everything is becoming an oligopoly where consumer price is no longer dictated by competition but share price. That's how the system is set up and I'm surprised it took this long for companies to figure this out. The more Ilearn how the system work the more I'm kicking myself for not getting into the 1% so when the big divide comes I will be on the easy/winning side. Divorcing yourself from desires of material goods and pleasures of the flesh is no longer enough to survive, let alone be happy and feel secure in your health and future. All the safe guards are almost gone as we regress into a time when the disadvantaged die in the street of starvation and cheaply preventable illness.

I imagine GitHub will get shitty just like all corporate mergers and way too expensive.

[Mr. Scram]

Bill gates is like the Corporate borg queen. Eventually all companies WILL be assimilated and resistance IS futile. I welcome the day we only have one company which will be Wall/applesoft/exxon/monstanto/Koch/mart. We will work for credits to buy things at the place we work for; like bitcoins but completely controlled. They already do this in china; whole towns owned by a company, people even have employee weddings in mass where you marry your coworkers and all shops/housing/utilities are owned by the factory. 21st century slavery. Worker strikes are met with tear gas and clubs. Not just in china the people that build trumps golf course in Dubai are perpetually in debt and can't get their passports without paying it off and they are kept in "housing" that has rents at American prices but at $1.00/hr pay, a hundred miles into desert so there is no escape. At least with the real borg you get to travel around the galaxy and don't have to worry about being poor. Everything is becoming an oligopoly where consumer price is no longer dictated by competition but share price. That's how the system is set up and I'm surprised it took this long for companies to figure this out. The more Ilearn how the system work the more I'm kicking myself for not getting into the 1% so when the big divide comes I will be on the easy/winning side. Divorcing yourself from desires of material goods and pleasures of the flesh is no longer enough to survive, let alone be happy and feel secure in your health and future. All the safe guards are almost gone as we regress into a time when the disadvantaged die in the street of starvation and cheaply preventable illness.

I imagine GitHub will get shitty just like all corporate mergers and way too expensive.

Bill Gates isn't calling the shots at Microsoft any more. He's been succeeded by Steve Ballmer, who in turn got succeeded by Satya Nadella. The latter is where all the current cloud shenanigans come from.

[luiHS]

 
Yesterday I migrated my Github to Gitlab, and it really was very easy, all the automatic process in a few minutes. Now I'm going to see how to manage Gitlab, and goodbye to Microsoft.

According to Gitlab statistics, a lot of people are migrating from Github to Gitlab.

That's the only thing that Bill Gates will get by buying Github, killing one more company, Gates is like King Midas, but on the contrary, all the companies he buys he destroys them. He is rotten with money, and he still wants more and more, that guy is disgusting.

Embrace, extend, and extinguish is the Microsoft strategy to create a monopoly and destroy the competitors
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish

[Echo88]

I for one welcome the day when our Borg-overlords ban people from using the internet so i dont get to see "The end is near"-yelling or "why is my pus polarized?"-questions from beamin. 

[Mr. Scram]

Yesterday I migrated my Github to Gitlab, and it really was very easy, all the automatic process in a few minutes. Now I'm going to see how to manage Gitlab, and goodbye to Microsoft.

According to Gitlab statistics, a lot of people are migrating from Github to Gitlab.

That's the only thing that Bill Gates will get by buying Github, killing one more company, Gates is like King Midas, but on the contrary, all the companies he buys he destroys them. He is rotten with money, and he still wants more and more, that guy is disgusting.

Gates stepped down as the CEO two decades ago and stopped working as a software architect a decade ago. He's been selling off his shares down to a current 4%. Not one, but two people have lead the company since. Bill Gates isn't CEO any more and doesn't own the majority of stock either.

People are so eager to jump on the hatewagon that they'll conveniently ignore the facts.

[maginnovision]

Yesterday I migrated my Github to Gitlab, and it really was very easy, all the automatic process in a few minutes. Now I'm going to see how to manage Gitlab, and goodbye to Microsoft.

According to Gitlab statistics, a lot of people are migrating from Github to Gitlab.

That's the only thing that Bill Gates will get by buying Github, killing one more company, Gates is like King Midas, but on the contrary, all the companies he buys he destroys them. He is rotten with money, and he still wants more and more, that guy is disgusting.

Gates stepped down as the CEO two decades ago and stopped working as a software architect a decade ago. He's been selling off his shares down to a current 4%. Not one, but two people have lead the company since. Bill Gates isn't CEO any more and doesn't own the majority of stock either.

People are so eager to jump on the hatewagon that they'll conveniently ignore the facts.

The internet loves a hate wagon. It helps that they have a mantra they can scream from the rooftops too.
"Embrace, extend, and extinguish"

[Nominal Animal]

ban people from using the internet so i dont get to see "The end is near"-yelling or "why is my pus polarized?"-questions from beamin. 

they'll conveniently ignore the facts.

The internet loves a hate wagon. It helps that they have a mantra they can scream from the rooftops too.

Right, right: if a company changes their CEO, it automatically means they will no longer repeat their decades-long anticompetitive practices. Because, uh, because they are better people now. Right?
 
Us "the end is near" and "mantra repeaters" are only extrapolating MS's actions based on its past business practices. There is zero evidence to expect the acquisition of GitHub to lead to anything positive to anybody except Microsoft.  The extremely high acquisition price furthermore indicates that MS expects to profit hugely from this move, as otherwise their leadership would be on the hook for shareholders for wasting a billion dollars.

So, if we stay strictly logical, and use Einstein's definition of idiocy, you guys are idiots, for ignoring we are only applying logic and extrapolating from past actions, to predict the outcome of this acquisition.  I don't know where your hopefulness regarding Microsoft behaviour stems from, and although I could speculate, only you know.  What you do not seem to realize, is that your optimism is not realistic, and not based on reality.  It is not a place where I would laugh at others.

[mtdoc]

It helps that they have a mantra they can scream from the rooftops too.
"Embrace, extend, and extinguish"

Nah.  I prefer the mantra Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers.  That's what Microsoft has always cared about.  That's the benevolent reason they've bought Github.  They care.

[maginnovision]

ban people from using the internet so i dont get to see "The end is near"-yelling or "why is my pus polarized?"-questions from beamin. 

they'll conveniently ignore the facts.

The internet loves a hate wagon. It helps that they have a mantra they can scream from the rooftops too.

Right, right: if a company changes their CEO, it automatically means they will no longer repeat their decades-long anticompetitive practices. Because, uh, because they are better people now. Right?
 
Us "the end is near" and "mantra repeaters" are only extrapolating MS's actions based on its past business practices. There is zero evidence to expect the acquisition of GitHub to lead to anything positive to anybody except Microsoft.  The extremely high acquisition price furthermore indicates that MS expects to profit hugely from this move, as otherwise their leadership would be on the hook for shareholders for wasting a billion dollars.

So, if we stay strictly logical, and use Einstein's definition of idiocy, you guys are idiots, for ignoring we are only applying logic and extrapolating from past actions, to predict the outcome of this acquisition.  I don't know where your hopefulness regarding Microsoft behaviour stems from, and although I could speculate, only you know.  What you do not seem to realize, is that your optimism is not realistic, and not based on reality.  It is not a place where I would laugh at others.

Except I don't know what you're talking about. Skype is still here, linked in is still here, nobody used nokia devices(Except the few of us who liked windows phone over android and ios) and they bought it because they thought it was a good fit(did you know they make hardware now?).  What else is there? Seriously what has happened in 5 or 10 years that makes you think the sky is falling. Can you show a trend? I don't care if you don't like skype now, or linked in or any of their other purchases because they haven't killed them off. Just like github alot of these companies bleed money the entire time they're around and then Microsoft comes in and throws money at them and tries to turn them into something that can stand on its own, not just on the shoulders of investors.

The world is not some utopia where you don't have to compensate people to work for you, pay for hardware you use, or pay others for the services they use. Come back to the real world and put down the whiskey so you can see a little more clearly. Or leave GitHub and don't use anything else Microsoft has then you don't need to be afraid anymore, they can't hurt you.

[Mr. Scram]

Right, right: if a company changes their CEO, it automatically means they will no longer repeat their decades-long anticompetitive practices. Because, uh, because they are better people now. Right?
 
Us "the end is near" and "mantra repeaters" are only extrapolating MS's actions based on its past business practices. There is zero evidence to expect the acquisition of GitHub to lead to anything positive to anybody except Microsoft.  The extremely high acquisition price furthermore indicates that MS expects to profit hugely from this move, as otherwise their leadership would be on the hook for shareholders for wasting a billion dollars.

So, if we stay strictly logical, and use Einstein's definition of idiocy, you guys are idiots, for ignoring we are only applying logic and extrapolating from past actions, to predict the outcome of this acquisition.  I don't know where your hopefulness regarding Microsoft behaviour stems from, and although I could speculate, only you know.  What you do not seem to realize, is that your optimism is not realistic, and not based on reality.  It is not a place where I would laugh at others.

It was literally a rant against Bill Gates, twice. I'm not laughing at anything or anyone, it just doesn't seem to much to ask for people to understand what they're talking about before they're flying off the handle. Supposed careful extrapolation of past events doesn't really coincide with not having the basic facts straight.

Please don't call people idiots because they don't agree with you. It's not conducive for a pleasant and valuable discussion and is likely to lead to two entrenched sides flinging trash at each other. This forum is better than that.

[Karel]

Microsoft's Campaign To Destroy DR-DOS
Microsoft's Anticompetitive Per Processor License Fees
Microsoft's Retaliation And Price Discrimination Against IBM
Microsoft's Organized Collective Boycott Against Intel
Microsoft's Elimination Of Word Perfect
Microsoft's Deceptive WISE Software Program
Microsoft's Elimination Of Netscape
Microsoft's Attempts To Extinguish Java
Microsoft's Elimination Of Rival Media Players
Microsoft's Campaign Against Rival Server Operating Systems
Microsoft's Failure To Comply With The Final Judgment
Microsoft's Campaign of Patent FUD against Linux and Open Source Software
Microsoft's False Promises of Interoperability

"The EC is also investigating Microsoft's actions to manipulate the vote
of the International Organization for Standardization / International Electrotechnical
Commission on the recent standardization of Office "Open" XML ("OOXML"). As reported
widely in the press and on the Internet, Microsoft's manipulation of the standards setting process
in favor of OOXML included financial inducements, threats, misleading information, and
committee-stuffing.committee-stuffing. These investigations are compelling examples of Microsoft's continued
misconduct related to its monopolies in operating systems and other products."

http://www.ecis.eu/documents/Finalversion_Consumerchoicepaper.pdf

"This anti-trust thing will blow over. We haven't changed our business practices at all."
- Bill Gates, Microsoft founder and then-CEO (1995)

p.s. I moved my repo's to GitLab. It was indeed very easy.

[Nominal Animal]

Except I don't know what you're talking about. Skype is still here

Except it is not for Linux users, unless one modifies the binary.

nobody used nokia devices

You don't know anything about history, do you? Nokia had 30% mobile market share in first quarter of 2010, when Elop was hired. It was Elop who managed to run that down to zero.

At the time Elop was hired as CEO, Nokia was developing a Linux-based OS for use on tablets and smartphones, Maemo, and was developing MeeGo.  The efforts were axed almost as the first thing Elop did (although he did fumble that too, by announcing that line of development at a related product reveal/announcement, killing sales for a newly released product).  MeeGo was backed by Intel, AMD, and the Linux Foundation; all it really needed to get off was a handset manufacturer with cash to promote a new product line.  It failed, because Nokia killed the project. 

The world is not some utopia where you don't have to compensate people to work for you

Just because you do not understand how free/open source software works, does not mean it does not work; you simply do not understand how it works.  Money is not the only resource worth measuring, nor the only compensation method.  There are quite complicated societal reasons behind this, but simply put, even money has only the value you think it has.  It is not backed by any valuable resources, only by the word of certain privately-owned banks.

I'm sure you still do not believe Linux is easily the most used OS kernel in the world, either.  People like you are what Microsoft, LinkedIn, Facebook, et cetera need to survive.

Yes, I will be removing my GitHub accounts, because I do not trust whatever plans Microsoft has for GitHub.

[Nominal Animal]

Please don't call people idiots because they don't agree with you.

It was a reference to how Einstein defined idiocy: if you repeat an experiment over and over again, and believe that this time the results will be different, you are an idiot.

Bill Gates set the operating culture of Microsoft for decades. That model of operation is what its stock owners expect, and require from the company. Because of that, the opinions and statements by Gates will still affect whoever is the CEO of Microsoft. If they don't, they won't be CEO for long, because of the stock owners.

[timelessbeing]

nobody used nokia devices

Wow. You do know there's a universe outside of 'Murica right?

[maginnovision]

Ok, I don't actually have time to argue with idealogues. You guys win, I think linux is a myth and microsoft is my religion. Good luck to you guys.

[Tandy]

For those of you moving to gitlab, you realise that it is a venture capital backed operation the same as Github was. The venture capital investors will be expecting an exit strategy, this means a sell out or an IPO. As there is less of an appetite for tech IPOs that means they will be looking for a buyer at some point in the not too distant future. So Gitlab will almost certainly be swallowed up by a big tech company.

[ataradov]

For those of you moving to gitlab, you realise that it is a venture capital backed operation the same as Github was. The venture capital investors will be expecting an exit strategy, this means a sell out or an IPO. As there is less of an appetite for tech IPOs that means they will be looking for a buyer at some point in the not too distant future. So Gitlab will almost certainly be swallowed up by a big tech company.

It is fine, everyone wants to get paid. The real issue is the acquiring company. Some are better than others.

I moved my private  projects to GitLab, so I don't have to pay MS money. I'll leave public ones where they are for now.

[Mr. Scram]

It was a reference to how Einstein defined idiocy: if you repeat an experiment over and over again, and believe that this time the results will be different, you are an idiot.

Bill Gates set the operating culture of Microsoft for decades. That model of operation is what its stock owners expect, and require from the company. Because of that, the opinions and statements by Gates will still affect whoever is the CEO of Microsoft. If they don't, they won't be CEO for long, because of the stock owners.

That's actually a reasonably clever attempt to avoid responsibility for calling people idiots, but Einstein never said that and the quote isn't about idiots, but insanity. I don't think Einstein would have appreciated cherry picked results to make them seem more consistent than they really are if he would have said it, though.

Microsoft had made a sharp left turn in recent years, both when it comes to their own products and supporting other initiatives. I'm not going to claim that this leopard changed his spots, but claiming it's the same organisation is demonstrably untrue too.

[Beamin]

I for one welcome the day when our Borg-overlords ban people from using the internet so i dont get to see "The end is near"-yelling or "why is my pus polarized?"-questions from beamin. 

Luckily the internet is still voluntary. Also I learned pus is more like a nonpolar amorphous solid. And this broken key board is very annoying. 

[Naguissa]

People keep complaining about nokia and skype. Neither of them was any good before or after so it's a moot point(I owned lumia phones exclusively from the 900 to the 1520, now using an hp elite x3). Might be a good idea to look at satya nadellas guidance since he's been in charge and stop worrying about what ballmer did/would do. Microsoft is just another company run by people.

Sometimes it pays to be a reasoning rational person instead of someone jumping on the bandwagon. Especially if it's the "durr" bandwagon expressing their dislike for the very successful microsoft corporation(+.87%). Let's not forget they've only announced their intention and the deal itself would not happen this year, or at the very end.

And just using my 4.5 years old phone, created by ex-Nokia people when this project was cancelled in a later stage (Meego)....

Enviado desde mi Jolla mediante Tapatalk

[bitwelder]

For those of you moving to gitlab, you realise that it is a venture capital backed operation the same as Github was. The venture capital investors will be expecting an exit strategy, this means a sell out or an IPO. As there is less of an appetite for tech IPOs that means they will be looking for a buyer at some point in the not too distant future. So Gitlab will almost certainly be swallowed up by a big tech company.

Gitlab is opensourced (while github is not), so while now it's possible to use gitlab.com as cloud resource to host projects, should really the worst happen, it would be still possible to use the same gitlab architecture but moving it to a self-hosted instance.

[Nominal Animal]

the quote isn't about idiots, but insanity.

Oops, right. My bad.

Anyway, I still think you're an idiot, in the derogatory sense, for thinking Microsoft's organization is different now than it was ten or twenty years ago, simply because they have managed to finesse their public image a bit.  Their practices have not changed in any measurable manner.

I do believe it is both appropriate and called for to call you an idiot, after you yourself labeled others opinions as "rants".  I can edit that to "unwitting Microsoft peon" or "paid Microsoft troll", if you prefer.

[Nominal Animal]

I wonder if the Microsoft legal team have developed some legal theory, that allows them to include any code from any GitHub project in their own proprietary products, regardless of the project's license?

Something cleverly worded in the GitHub user agreement, perhaps? Or perhaps that will be achieved via a small, innocuous-looking rewording of the user agreement? Perhaps in conjunction with a little-known law in the US?  (All pure speculation, of course.)

I do know that MS would happily pay a billion dollars for the ability to reuse for example Linux kernel code without abiding by the GPL license. I really don't see how MS officers could otherwise explain the extremely high purchase price to their shareholders. The officers of a publicly-traded company just do not get to spend a billion dollars on something just because it is a good cause; they must have a viable plan, or they'll be on the hook for a shareholder lawsuit.

[ataradov]

C'mon they are not that evil. This is getting silly.

[onesixright]

C'mon they are not that evil. This is getting silly.

LOL. You got to be kidding me YES They are ;-)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Naguissa]

It will be bad even for the Git itself, because Microsoft always EEE.

Only if people actually keep using GitHub, or Microsoft's forthcoming fork of the git protocols and utilities.

I wonder what kind of "helpful" mascot they'll push with their mutant version of git? Gitty?

[Simon]

the quote isn't about idiots, but insanity.

Oops, right. My bad.

Anyway, I still think you're an idiot, in the derogatory sense, for thinking Microsoft's organization is different now than it was ten or twenty years ago,

And you are.... um..... unwise... for thinking you can use that sort of language on a forum who's one golden rule is that name calling is not allowed and is a offence that gets you banned. You have been warned.

[Simon]

If windows 10 and office365 hadn't rubbed me wrong, I'd probably be OK with it, at this point I'm stuck on the Windows 7 sinking ship watching my options blip out

Linux has a steep learning curve but it's worth it.

Linux is a pipe dream, unless there is ONE linux it will never be standard. There are literally hundreds of distributions. Developers are very very stuck up and don't like helping newcomers and you often find that it's not so free if you need to make serious use of software.

Why would any hardware or software developer take it seriously when it would mean having 10 fold technical calls with people having problems with their particular weired ass distro? non of the major engineering programs work on linux and some.... ahem.... CS is not even that great in the one and only windows version. The 3D CAD sofware i use is not the greatest on windows and their support and bug fixing is rubbish, I can't possibly imagine them having a linux version and succeeding.

I was hoping ReactOS would come of age but that is another pipe dream and it has been years since I can get anything of theirs to run as they only have one SATA driver and it does not cover the majority of chipsets.

The answer is standardisation and tough oversight but no government want's to regulate big business, they try to entice then to their own countries with the promise of low tax and loose regulation.

[Karel]

Linux is a pipe dream, ...

So, that's why there are Linux versions of Cadence, Zuken, ADS (Keysight), Eagle, Microchip, Altera, Xilinx, etc. etc. ... because Linux is a pipedream.

A reminder, Linux is the most used operating system in the world, even if you don't take Android into account.
It's just the desktop where Linux isn't king.

[bd139]

On the desktop yes. On the server it’s a dream.

Also it is standardised via LSB and to some degree POSIX. If you pick RHEL on the desktop then that is solved. This isn’t 1995 when every vendor’s broken ass C compiler and UNIX implementation needs retarget.
Literally compile and run on any modern ish (post 2008) target. ABI and API are stable.

You’ll find most vendors that target Unix platforms that their product is orders of magnitude more reliable there. That is because it’s where they do the dev. The Windows first vendor’s are pooling cheap windows dev labour as well so you’re not going to get a good product out.

Also got to ask what the fuck is happening with GPU acceleration now. Apple just canned OpenGL and on windows the GPU vendor’s just ship OpenGL and same on Linux.

Standards pah. Monopoly of the hour.  I’d rather stick with standards and an open platform because when altium wont run I’m not going to want to pay for it again and again and again.

Also don’t forget us lot in the software industry are pretty much all heading in that direction. Not many people leaving universities with a windows mindset these days.

[TerraHertz]

C'mon they are not that evil. This is getting silly.

LOL. You got to be kidding me YES They are ;-)

Exactly.
I haven't seen even one mention here of what is probably Microsoft's primary motivation in this purchase.

Background:
Microsoft is all about control, surveillance and dis-empowerment of 'users' (ie everyone.) If you didn't pick up on this from their Longhorn whitepaper, or the NSA keys in Windows, then the Windows 10 telemetry model and being hand in glove with Intel and their Management Engine should have done it for you. Anyone who thinks  the Wintel architecture has any purpose other than enabling targetted surveillance of any and all computer users, is in denial and delusion land. 

Copyright, DRM, media pay-to-view and App rental models are all just window dressing and camouflage, pretending profit motive and stupidity as sole causes for the mess.  But the primary aim is social control and monitoring, keeping tabs on all tech developments and making sure there are no 'disruptive technology' surprises that might threaten Elite control of the people.

Even the 'corporations are required to serve the interests of shareholders, and have no other (evil) motives' is a superficial fantasy serving as a smokescreen hiding the reality. All large corporations like Microsoft, Intel, Alphabet, Facebook, etc have one primary goal - social control in the interests of the 0.001%.

The only potential threat to this control matrix, is independent open-source software development. It's chaotic and unpredictable, and million-monkey frameworks like Linux are easy to infiltrate and subvert. But independent developers still pop up disruptive surprises now and then.  The worst case would be some new hardware and OS platform, that doesn't have any backdoors built in, produced by a previously unknown small, tight group of awake people who can't be bought and turned.

So why does MS want to buy Github?

They don't want to own the code in the repositories. They don't care about that, what they want is supervisory control. Being able to see all the code, in all the accounts, is just part of that. But what they really want is visibility of who is doing what. Not just on Github, but on their own home/business PCs as well.

Remember that with the IME existing in all modern Intel-based PCs, all those PCs are totally open to access by the MS-Intel-three-letter-agency bunch. But there's a volume problem - a need to know who is worth snooping on. It's all about early warning and focus.

So now MS owns Github. That gives them the IP addresses of everyone accessing whatever code bases MS decides may represent threats to the control matrix. Pointers to individuals who might be doing even more disruptive code development or whatever, in private.

Microsoft just bought a method of selecting potential targets. This is why the high price. It's something they care about. Sure, they'll try to screw a profit out of their purchase too, but that isn't the main objective.


Edit to add:
Btw, I've never used Github, or any such version control and dev sharing system. When I look at gihub projects I'm often struck by the total lack of anything I'd call decent project documentation. Which turns me off pursuing it. When people can't even write a one paragraph description of what a project is FOR, I tend to expect their software will be garbage too.

But I should learn. Anyone know of a concise introduction to the general topic of how such tools work? It's interesting that the gitlab stuff is open source, and could be used for individual local project management and in small group projects. This appeals to me.

Also I notice people using the word 'git' as a generic. So 'github' isn't just a made up name? What does 'git' stand for?
 

[bd139]

They don't want any of that. They want market domination. All corporations do.

[Naguissa]

[...]

Also I notice people using the word 'git' as a generic. So 'github' isn't just a made up name? What does 'git' stand for?
 

GIT is the tool, like Subversion or CVS were (are).

GitHub is one site providing several storage and functionality for the tool, but not the only one, as you can use others, install in your server or use locally, as SourceForge is.

[Simon]

I would not have a problem with Linux I tried it several times but the graphical control panel gave very few options so you had to find out how use the command line, except the stuck up users on forums are unwilling to help unless you basically already know most of your solution.

Not all Linux is free, I run my own VPS and attempted to use a "free" control panel only to hit the same old "attitude" when I needed to fix a problem they caused with their update. I could of paid for support but I was told that it was all free...... I now run cPanel, i have to pay for it but I don't get the linux snot attitude when I need to sort something out.

I think hardware vendors and software developers may be reluctant to commit until there is less diversity in OSes. I have never had decent graphics performance on linux although it is a few years since i bothered because I need a system that just works so that i can get on with my life. I hate microsoft but there is no clear alternative.

[bd139]

Nothing is free. It either costs time or money and sometimes both. Linux allows you to leverage knowledge to reduce time which is initially higher but has no monetary cost. This is at the cost of losing a lot of convenience and discoverability of a GUI. BUT at the gain of unlimited composition and understanding the problem domain and technology. You can take lots of little bits of generic knowledge and sling them all together to build a solution very quickly once you've spent that time cost.

Anything which promises to do all this composition for you in one blob appears to be run by asshats as a rule. This is due to CADT model [1]. Don't expect any luck there.

You'll find that on the hosting front, going for a control panel is the wrong solution if you have to run a business off it. You're better learning ansible and deploying the little components yourself rather than relying on someone's best composition model. With all the control panels, be it commercial, integrated into the OS or otherwise, they hide a lot of the architecture of what is going on away from you. And believe me when the shit inevitably hits the fan they hide where the problem is and your understanding of how to get to it. I had the unenvious task of digging a whole cPanel ISP out of the crap about a decade ago after cPanel fell over on them in style. They couldn't handle it because they didn't know how the parts worked.

For me, this is a winner and I'm building a business on this right now: CentOS, AWS, Python, Flask, PostgreSQL, RabbitMQ, nginx, ansible and Windows on the desktop (there I said it )

[1] https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html

[Simon]

I would be quite happy to pay for a desktop version of linux, ideally a single distro that becomes the standard for the average non technical user. No snottiness just make it work and make it easy. The problem is that linux currently is seen as and is for those into programming. My dad can hardly grasp the conceps of windows he would never manage to sort anything out on linux. Once you have a single serious supported platform hardware manufacturers will start to make drivers ani sofware companies will consider it as their go to platform to target their software.

No free is never free but currently you get mixed messages and it seems that there is a culture of luring people in with "free" letting it be impossible to use unless your a programmer and then wanting lots of money for support.

[Karel]

..., ideally a single distro that becomes the standard for the average non technical user.

Windows is made for the masses. Linux is made by engineers, for engineers. They have different goals and, because of that, different results.

[bd139]

I would be quite happy to pay for a desktop version of linux, ideally a single distro that becomes the standard for the average non technical user. No snottiness just make it work and make it easy. The problem is that linux currently is seen as and is for those into programming. My dad can hardly grasp the conceps of windows he would never manage to sort anything out on linux. Once you have a single serious supported platform hardware manufacturers will start to make drivers ani sofware companies will consider it as their go to platform to target their software.

To make it work and make it easy means removing the power. You have to meet the machine half way.

Standard is RHEL. CentOS is a non commercial binary compatible version of RHEL. Vendors certify hardware, software and drivers on it. It's why I'm RHCA on it!

Keysight even certify GoldenGate on it. Typical cert list is as follows:

Redhat Linux RHEL6 (64-bit)
Redhat Linux RHEL7 (64-bit)
SUSE Linux SLES11 (64-bit)

Note no wonky weird or completely open source distributions in here. There's a commercial market too, and you get support from RH, excellent documentation, manuals and support info and a lifecycle of 10 years. Sounds familiar 

No free is never free but currently you get mixed messages and it seems that there is a culture of luring people in with "free" letting it be impossible to use unless your a programmer and then wanting lots of money for support.

Beware all dangling carrots. Some of them are parsnips. I don't like parsnips. Yuck.

[Zero999]

I would be quite happy to pay for a desktop version of linux, ideally a single distro that becomes the standard for the average non technical user. No snottiness just make it work and make it easy. The problem is that linux currently is seen as and is for those into programming. My dad can hardly grasp the conceps of windows he would never manage to sort anything out on linux. Once you have a single serious supported platform hardware manufacturers will start to make drivers ani sofware companies will consider it as their go to platform to target their software.

No free is never free but currently you get mixed messages and it seems that there is a culture of luring people in with "free" letting it be impossible to use unless your a programmer and then wanting lots of money for support.

There are plenty of non-free Linux distributions for non-technical users, which contain additional proprietary features, such as better support for Windows programs and codecs.

I'm hardly a techy person, as far as computers are concerned and have found migrating to Linux, fairly straightforward. Indeed, as far as user interface is concerned, I find KDE easier to use than the Windows 10 desktop and I found it easier to migrate from Windows XP to Linux, than Windows 10.

The major stumbling blocks for most people is driver support for things such as printers and Windows-only software, but fortunately neither of them affect me personally.

[Simon]

..., ideally a single distro that becomes the standard for the average non technical user.

Windows is made for the masses. Linux is made by engineers, for engineers. They have different goals and, because of that, different results.

that is their excuse, fact is they are making a product for themselves which is why for linux to work as an OS for the masses it needs to be made for the masses by someone with some business nouse that is not working on their pet product but but for living. Many of the small niceties I saw in linux before windows. Why have a half cocked control panel, either have one or don't, all graphical interfacing can be replaced with commands, it's called unix, GUI's were introduced for a reason, they make life easier but lots of people like pretending they are clever just because they can remember the commands to do it, yes it's a nice feeling being able to and has it's place but not for the everyday user.

[Simon]

There are plenty of non-free Linux distributions for non-technical users, which contain additional proprietary features, such as better support for Windows programs and codecs.

I'm hardly a techy person, as far as computers are concerned and have found migrating to Linux, fairly straightforward. Indeed, as far as user interface is concerned, I find KDE easier to use than the Windows 10 desktop and I found it easier to migrate from Windows XP to Linux, than Windows 10.

The major stumbling blocks for most people is driver support for things such as printers and Windows-only software, but fortunately neither of them affect me personally.

Which ones? and again it's plural not a single platform so developers will look at it and just continue to support windows based programs. If they are adding their own proprietary stuff onto linux you have an even further divergence of systems to cope with.

[langwadt]

..., ideally a single distro that becomes the standard for the average non technical user.

Windows is made for the masses. Linux is made by engineers, for engineers. They have different goals and, because of that, different results.

that is their excuse, fact is they are making a product for themselves which is why for linux to work as an OS for the masses it needs to be made for the masses by someone with some business nouse that is not working on their pet product but but for living. Many of the small niceties I saw in linux before windows. Why have a half cocked control panel, either have one or don't, all graphical interfacing can be replaced with commands, it's called unix, GUI's were introduced for a reason, they make life easier but lots of people like pretending they are clever just because they can remember the commands to do it, yes it's a nice feeling being able to and has it's place but not for the everyday user.

GUIs make thing seem easier in some cases, but definitely not is all

run this command and you are done is a hell of a lot easier than; click this then click that , then scroll down to option 4, go to third tab, then click options, then then click advanced, then scroll to the bottom and check the box on the left, no the other left ....

[bd139]

GUIs are also useless for automation and automation is freedom from slavery.

[Simon]

Yes but the average user that wants to change one thing on their machine prefers a GUI. Every GUI will relate to command line actions anyway, it is not either/or it is just a case of making it more accessible. But Linux was never about that, it's an underground thing that has found it's way into some technical circles. Take every engineering company in the world, how many are running Linux, now take out the software companies, baring special usu you will find no Linux. Where we work we struggle with windows god knows what it would look like with Linux. My comment to the IT guy the other side of the country today was "no, you deal with it, I have work to do".

[apis]

The GUI in Linux is a standalone application, not part of the operating system. You have to be able to configure everything that runs without a GUI without a GUI (e.g. a webserver). The configuration files are stored in standardised locations and you simply edit them to configure things. (You can even edit them with a GUI editor if you like). It's simple and it works well.

GUI applications can usually be configured within the application just like in windows (Edit -> Preferences).

Say one of the big distributors like Canonical (Ubuntu) came up with some sort of GUI control panel for everything, then each developer of every application would have to write an interface for it, and they probably wouldn't be particularly interested in the extra work when there is little/no benefit. GNU/Linux (open source software) isn't built from the top down, you can't enforce a standard the same way Apple/MS can.

(EDIT: For doing basic things (browsing the web, reading emails, word processing, etc) you don't have to touch the command line at all, Ubuntu even has a nice GUI installer these days.)

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

It will be bad even for the Git itself, because Microsoft always EEE.

Only if people actually keep using GitHub, or Microsoft's forthcoming fork of the git protocols and utilities.

That, hear, hear! Says an ex-user of Skype, LinkedIn, Wünderlist, Nokia, and soon github too. Hope git survives M$'s EEE kiss of death.

[Marco]

ideally a single distro that becomes the standard for the average non technical user.

It's not about the distro, it's about QA of updates on the various supported hardware configurations and trying to make sure the system is idiot proof 99% of the time.

The only Linux platform which does both are Chromebooks. Which soon will be able to run Linux apps by the way, so there's that. It's just a shame they datamine you.

[Karel]

... for linux to work as an OS for the masses it needs to be made for the masses ...

Please no, I don't want the masses to use Linux. The day that happens I'll switch back to windows...

One of the many things I like about Linux, is that the "technical level/education" of the average user is higher than the average joe.

For me, Linux desktop usage should never reach more than, let's say, 5% of the desktop market.

[Naguissa]

... for linux to work as an OS for the masses it needs to be made for the masses ...

Please no, I don't want the masses to use Linux. The day that happens I'll switch back to windows...

One of the many things I like about Linux, is that the "technical level/education" of the average user is higher than the average joe.

For me, Linux desktop usage should never reach more than, let's say, 5% of the desktop market.

It's not really true.

For fixing issues or edge cases, yes, some technical knoledge is needed.

But as far as I've found, non-technical users learns faster how to use Linux compared to Windows, if they didn't used a computer before (or in decades). Even some regular users adapt faster to Linux than to Windows 10, only need few basic concepts as the store.

[apis]

But as far as I've found, non-technical users learns faster how to use Linux compared to Windows, if they didn't used a computer before (or in decades). Even some regular users adapt faster to Linux than to Windows 10, only need few basic concepts as the store.

True, it's usually people who are used to windows who find linux difficult. Suddenly things don't work the same way they used to, and you have to learn how to do basic things over again. It frustrating to have to crawl when you are used to running. It's like learning a new language, your native language seems easy while foreign languages seem strange and difficult.

[Monkeh]

Nice to see this has turned into yet another clicky browser vs competent operator thread rather than one about Github.

Give it a rest.

[Naguissa]

Nice to see this has turned into yet another clicky browser vs competent operator thread rather than one about Github.

Give it a rest.

You're true...

About this point, I've created my GitLab account. Now I have to slowly move all my repos to that.


I'm tired of MS EEE usual tactic, and I'm not going to wait until it's very late and I have to migrate everithing in a hurry, I prefer to advance this (usual with MS) scenario.

[Simon]

... for linux to work as an OS for the masses it needs to be made for the masses ...

Please no, I don't want the masses to use Linux. The day that happens I'll switch back to windows...

One of the many things I like about Linux, is that the "technical level/education" of the average user is higher than the average joe.

For me, Linux desktop usage should never reach more than, let's say, 5% of the desktop market.

why the snobbery? I'm not saying that linux distributions should dissapere, only that for the average user that just wants to do work a system that works and has software vendor support would be just as happy to pay for it as they do windows. Yes for email and browsing any linux will do. i need to run specific programs: solid edge, CS, and if i go through my computer and list all software I bet not much of it is available for linux.

If you could convert the average office to Linux with little to no effort required by the average user to use different programs to do the same thing or the same programs on linux what is the problem. I have and ex 3D CAD user volunteering at my talking newspaper. He's good at audio editing too yet does not have a clue about the folder structure principles despite using a computer for much of his working life......

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Hey, Simon, stay on topic. You have been warned. :-)

[ me ducks and runs ]

[Simon]

Hey, Simon, stay on topic. You have been warned. :-)

[ me ducks and runs ]

Well MS has bought Github, take it or leave it and go elsewhere. No monopoly is bad which is why I'd like to see viable alternatives to all of their products.

[Monkeh]

Hey, Simon, stay on topic. You have been warned. :-)

[ me ducks and runs ]

Well MS has bought Github, take it or leave it and go elsewhere. No monopoly is bad which is why I'd like to see viable alternatives to all of their products.

That doesn't make Windows vs Linux the topic. Or this 'discussion' any more original and valuable than in the last 20 threads it took over.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

I'm going lo leave, that's for sure! Already left Skype, WunderList and LinkedIn and will do it again. Needless to say, I'm not a Windozes user and never ever have been.

[apis]

i need to run specific programs: solid edge, CS, and if i go through my computer and list all software I bet not much of it is available for linux.

My favourite Linux software isn't available on windows either, but a lot of professional applications needed for work are windows only. The companies doesn't want to make linux versions because there isn't enough linux users. There isn't enough linux users because there isn't enough software...

He's good at audio editing too yet does not have a clue about the folder structure principles despite using a computer for much of his working life......

i.e. he's used to windows and the apps he use. If he had to learn linux CAD programs and audio editing software he would have to start over again.

(Sorry: my last off-topic post  )

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Oh please!

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

On the plus side, I'm glad for these guys are going to pocket a good bunch of millions $. Good for them! I'm green with envy.

[Nominal Animal]

one golden rule is that name calling is not allowed and is a offence that gets you banned. You have been warned.

Noted.

Developers are very very stuck up and don't like helping newcomers and you often find that it's not so free if you need to make serious use of software.

I take exception to being called very very stuck up (I am a Linux developer), but other than that, you're absolutely right.

The reason is that in the FOSS land, all maintenance and development costs are on the end user.  Time and effort is the exchange medium, the "currency", if you will.  There is no beneficial exchange in helping newcomers; only those who like helping, help newcomers.

"Free" does not mean no-cost support or maintenance; it means you are free to decide for yourself what to do about it.

Edited to add: This is also the reason why most Linux users could not care less whether Linux is popular or not. In fact, for many people who develop tools they use and need themselves, not a lot newcomers is a good thing, because they don't want to listen to their woes. It's similar to not wanting to see beggars on the street, really.

This fundamental difference in how the single-vendor world and Linux world sees software tools and how their development and maintenance costs are covered, is at the very heart of the MS GitHub acquisition, too.

One might think that large corporations would easily see how FOSS ecosystem (and many of their developers certainly do), but I posit that their officers do not.  All large proprietary software vendors have confidentiality built in to their operating procedures.  Just look at AMD: it took them years of open-sourcing their graphics driver, even when they really wanted to.  Confidentiality is simply built in to all their contracts and procedures.  The officers have been trained to work in that kind of operating environment; how would they have any inkling of how open-source licenses or projects work?  From magazines?  Plus, as officers of a publicly traded company, they are on the hook for making decisions that bring in cash. If they spend it frivolously, they can be sued by the shareholders.

I was not kidding when I suggested that perhaps there is a software licensing loophole lurking at the minds of MS officers, explaining the high purchase price.

[Nominal Animal]

I think hardware vendors and software developers may be reluctant to commit until there is less diversity in OSes.

There was a point in time when everyone could have standardized on OpenGL, or developed a better one to replace it (Khronos group etc.), but Microsoft developed their own solution, and even Apple is rejecting OpenGL and OpenCL for their own solution, Metal.  This means fundamental differences at the core approach.

For cross-platform development, the application must be designed to cater for those core differences, and that is really, really hard for most developers.

I have never had decent graphics performance on linux although it is a few years since i bothered because I need a system that just works so that i can get on with my life.

I can recommend the HP EliteBook 830 G3 and HP EliteBook 840 G4 laptops. Full support in Ubuntu and Mint.  Installation (for a first-time OS installer on an EFI-based machine) can be tricky, but if you get that part right, the machine Just Works.  My university lends these (using their own Ubuntu distro variant) for new math/physics students, a couple of hundred machines now I believe. I've helped in the maintenance and troubleshooting typical issues, and have been using these myself for about a year each.  Other than hardware failures, I've only seen typical user goofs (that everyone makes, myself included), and some OS update glitches (as dependencies were changed in the custom distro). Very beefy and nice machines, in my humble opinion.

[Simon]

Folder structure is the same on either, boxes in boxes, my point was that it's often the programs that people use, the OS is transparent.

[Simon]

I suspect MS will do their best to encourage people to develop on things like dotNET, paint.net is made on that and was as slow as hell at first but the platform has improved, obviously being developed on MS's own platform it will never exist on anything but windows. I suspect that they will add the ability to "publish" a program to the "windows store" further consolidating the hold of windows. MS have failed badly in the past in that they missed boats like their XPS format to replace PDF and the world just ignored them, now office has save to PDF as standard. They developed silverlight to replace flash and get people building websites BUT silverlight had to be installed on windows (did they do a linux, macos, android version) and i guess would be web developers soon realised that they would be wise not to box themselves into a corner...... the list probably goes on and it is all about and in aid of world domination of windows.

[Zero999]

There are plenty of non-free Linux distributions for non-technical users, which contain additional proprietary features, such as better support for Windows programs and codecs.

I'm hardly a techy person, as far as computers are concerned and have found migrating to Linux, fairly straightforward. Indeed, as far as user interface is concerned, I find KDE easier to use than the Windows 10 desktop and I found it easier to migrate from Windows XP to Linux, than Windows 10.

The major stumbling blocks for most people is driver support for things such as printers and Windows-only software, but fortunately neither of them affect me personally.

Which ones? and again it's plural not a single platform so developers will look at it and just continue to support windows based programs. If they are adding their own proprietary stuff onto linux you have an even further divergence of systems to cope with.

How is that a problem for the developer?

It's fairly easy to make software which will work across the most popular Linux distributions. It's true that there are some problems with binary compatibility between different Linux variants, but it's not that bad.

[Simon]

Developers are hired by dum managers that want an easy life. Support staff are not always the sharpest and often work off a script, the more platform combinations you serve the harder the inevitable support is. Solid edge will only support the latest version on windows 10 and even then you are lucky if they acknowledge you have found yet another bug. I had a problem with lack of consistency in how their software did display background colours with the main software and the viewer doing 2 different things. Unsurprisingly they have ditched the viewer......

[Simon]

We had instances of solid edge not working with an iphone plugged into the computer, how many times over do sofware companies want to solve issues on slightly different platforms.

[ivaylo]

https://www.reddit.com/r/AMA/comments/8pc8mf/_/

[Bassman59]

Linux is a pipe dream, ...

So, that's why there are Linux versions of Cadence, Zuken, ADS (Keysight), Eagle, Microchip, Altera, Xilinx, etc. etc. ... because Linux is a pipedream.

For those applications the vendors generally specify the supported Linux distro (usually RHEL/CentOS). Hacks exist to get things to run on other Linuxes (Ubuntu seem to be favored) but I think Simon's point is that why should these applications be distro-specific? (I run CentOS in a VMWare VM.)

[Rick Law]

I wonder if the Microsoft legal team have developed some legal theory, that allows them to include any code from any GitHub project in their own proprietary products, regardless of the project's license?

Something cleverly worded in the GitHub user agreement, perhaps? Or perhaps that will be achieved via a small, innocuous-looking rewording of the user agreement? Perhaps in conjunction with a little-known law in the US?  (All pure speculation, of course.)

I do know that MS would happily pay a billion dollars for the ability to reuse for example Linux kernel code without abiding by the GPL license. I really don't see how MS officers could otherwise explain the extremely high purchase price to their shareholders. The officers of a publicly-traded company just do not get to spend a billion dollars on something just because it is a good cause; they must have a viable plan, or they'll be on the hook for a shareholder lawsuit.

Took me a while to finish all existing replies.  I think I agree with this reply the most.

I suspect MS will issue new user agreement that everything you put on the new MS-GitHub, MS will have some sort of right-to-use, or right-to-sell, or right-of-first-refusal.

Just like photos uploaded to social media, the original owner lost most if not all control.  I would not be surprised if someday, some work published on GitHub worked it's way into a Microsoft Patent (or Microsoft copyright-ed product) without the original author even knowing about it.  They will point out that their ability to do that would be clearly enumerated in the user agreement - a War and Peace size user agreement.

[Simon]

I think this will be just another miscalculation and flop, people can just go elsewhere and if a preferred platform emerges they be able to improve and replicate what was lost. At best Microsoft are simply shutting the platform down until they tire or chasing it.

[FrankBuss]

I've never used it, but looks like their old version control system, TFS Version Control, sucks:

http://www.derekhammer.com/2011/09/11/tfs-is-destroying-your-development-capacity.html

I like github, and I hope they don't make it worse, but always possible to migrate to gitlab if this happens.

[TerraHertz]

[...]

Also I notice people using the word 'git' as a generic. So 'github' isn't just a made up name? What does 'git' stand for?
 

GIT is the tool, like Subversion or CVS were (are).

GitHub is one site providing several storage and functionality for the tool, but not the only one, as you can use others, install in your server or use locally, as SourceForge is.

Ah ha. Shows you how long it's been since I touched anything significant in software.
In case I'm not actually the only person on the planet who didn't know what GIT is, this may save you a few seconds of search time:

https://hackernoon.com/understanding-git-fcffd87c15a3
  Understanding Git (part 1)—Explain it Like I’m Five

https://hackernoon.com/understanding-git-2-81feb12b8b26
  Understanding Git (part 2)—Contributing to a Team

The GIT site
   https://git-scm.com/downloads   GIT's command line interface
   https://desktop.github.com/     GIT's GUI (Win & MAC)
   https://git-scm.com/docs/gitglossary     Glossary
   https://git-scm.com/docs                 Reference Guide
   https://git-scm.com/book/en/v2/Git-Branching-Basic-Branching-and-Merging    Book


Incidentally, here's an AMA from the guy who will be future MS CEO of Github:
   https://www.reddit.com/r/AMA/comments/8pc8mf/im_nat_friedman_future_ceo_of_github_ama/

More significant for the questions he didn't answer.

Hmm. So Github also has (lots of) private repositories, typically used by commercial businesses for their product development. I bet they are just thrilled about MS buying all their trade secrets, and someone else getting the cash.
If one had a list of all those projects, there might be some things in there to explain the price MS agreed to pay. Especially since even if repository creators delete their account, you can bet Github will still have copies.

[FrankBuss]

Anyone remember Clippy? 

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Especially since even if repository creators delete their account *NOW, BEFORE M$ OWNS IT*, you can bet Github will still have copies.

Exactly... :-(

[Naguissa]

Anyone remember Clippy? 

It will be bad even for the Git itself, because Microsoft always EEE.

Only if people actually keep using GitHub, or Microsoft's forthcoming fork of the git protocols and utilities.

I wonder what kind of "helpful" mascot they'll push with their mutant version of git? Gitty?

[Nominal Animal]

I think this will be just another miscalculation and flop

How likely is such a blunder, however?

In 2000, the Finnish telephone company Sonera formed a group, "Group 3G", along with Spanish Telefonica, basically wasted billions of euros in the auction of German UMTS frequency ranges.  There was a lot of hype and a lot of competition, but I do not think any of the officers in charge got any backlash (quite the opposite, golden parachutes, eventually), probably because the majority of their stocks were government-owned.

Is it possible that this is a billion-dollar blunder by MS officers?  Could it be they simply do not understand open source licensing and software development at all, and have mistakenly applied the traditional "one who has it and keeps it secret, owns it" approach to GitHub? Nah, I don't buy it.

Having thought about this off and on for a couple of days after deleting my GitHub account, I think the most likely explanation is that MS sees this as buying goodwill among the free/open source ecosystem.  Could it be they have problems in hiring the best developers, especially those already working on open source projects?  For example, mono is still treated as at least slightly suspicious by many developers and even some users, so much so that mono-based packages in e.g. Ubuntu often do not mention it in their short descriptions at all. (Mono-related packages use the "-cil" suffix; whether this is intentional in obfuscating the relationship to Mono or not, I do not know.)

The risks to GitHub users still remains, even in that (innocuous-seeming) case.  If we extrapolate from history, this effort will not provide the results MS hopes for, and at some point, that means a fundamental change the users do not like.

Like what happened to Netmeeting. It is interesting to note that MS removed it from Windows XP before there were any alternatives; even Skype was launched several years after that. Most likely reason for the removal was that they couldn't get any revenue off it, but maintenance costs were pretty high (video codecs, webcam support). They did, IIRC, try to bundle it with Office at some point, probably in an effort to try and extract at least some revenue off it, by getting users who don't really need Office but wanted Netmeeting, to buy the Office package. This was around 2000, so very much during the Office wars.

[Simon]

as i said before i suspect they will "help" developers to use windows only IDE's with windows only depedancies and then they will "help" them to "publish" or even "sell" through the windows store. This may even be thought of as a way to push along the windows phone.

They bought hotmail, things were ok, then they moved hotmail to their own servers, not so good but no one that was not a techie noticed the difference. Now they have ditched hotmail and created their own outlook email provision. then they tried to migrate from hotmail servers to outlook servers. Now one of my friends who knows nothing about computers and could not care who she is with has moved to gmail as even though she was getting emails the sender always got a bounce back error because MS fuck up everything they touch.

[HoracioDos]

Hi:
Perhaps I got a little too late into discussion. I dont' like Microsoft very much but until they don't show any attempt to ruin GitHub I guess it is still a perfect valid option. It would be very interesting to see how Microsoft will make money from this acquisition. Their business model is beyond my understanding. I hope they don't apply their old EEE strategy. Other companies do the same. Oracle is one of them but they didn't kill MySql. I remember when many people augured a bad future.

I'm not a developer, I only write simple python scripts and many times I fork repos to make my own fixes but never publish them. It's still a pending desire to upload repos and create a personal page. So I will evaluate GitHub service or others based on how they can help me to accomplish my objectives. For example Gitlab seems to have better features for free plans.
Regards

[Simon]

I think it is more a case of eliminating the competition and looking good.

I don't know about oracle but Mysql has reached the end of it's life replaced by MariaDB

[HoracioDos]

I don't know about oracle but Mysql has reached the end of it's life replaced by MariaDB

I'm not completely sure about about that. MariaDb was MySql replacement until version 8. Now MySQL follows it's own path.

[Simon]

oh, well the last options i looked at on my server looked like Mysql was no longer being developed.

[donotdespisethesnake]

I suspect MS will screw up Github, whether they mean to or not. They can't help it. They lost the "cool developers" cachet many decades ago, when it became clear they are ruthless corporates dressed as cool developers. Regarding change of strategy, sure Nutella is moving away from desktop to cloud, IoT etc, but are they really moving away from the goal of making money from everything they can get their fingers in? MS make billions from Android, just on patents and licensing.

Github is nice, but of course the barrier to entry is pretty low, developing web sites is a commodity. Being the cool place to share projects is completely different, and github could lose that as easily as Sourceforge did.

Prediction: MS recommend everyone move to gitlab because they are shutting down Github. MS buys Gitlab for $15 billion. Rinse, repeat.

[Monkeh]

oh, well the last options i looked at on my server looked like Mysql was no longer being developed.

That's not even jumping to conclusions, it's launching rockets at them.

[Simon]

just saying, I had a list of versions - as it is I needed to upgrade but even the latest version said that it was at end of life in february.

[HoracioDos]

I'm having a very relaxed friday afternoon so I had time to read reddit AMA talk with Nat Friedman. He said that as Microsoft has a huge sales force. Money will come from customers that are out of reach to GitHub right now. It seems to be a very simple plan for a 7.5B acquisition. Now Jim Zemlin from Linux Fundation said that It is all good news. Nothing to worry about. Am I under the influence of too much chamomile tea?

[Simon]

The last thing it will harm is linux

[bd139]

Microsoft is a massive sponsor of the Linux foundation. Linux foundation is basically a large paid up lobbying group built by large manufacturers and users of Linux. They use it to force change where possible.

However Linus despite being paid by them isn’t having any of that shit and generally goes in the right direction. However you have to wonder what will happen inevitably when he’s not at the helm one day in the future.

[Simon]

WinLux ? WinuX ?

[bd139]

It’s already been done and I use it daily. Basically ELF loader, MMU support and syscall translation runtime that replaces Linux kernel with NT and file system with a virtualised NTFS.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Subsystem_for_Linux

[Simon]

Sorry LinDows then, we need it the other way around.

[bd139]

I’m good with that one. 

[Marco]

It seems to be a very simple plan for a 7.5B acquisition.

No sabotage of github to harm open source can be worth anything near that either, it's too trivial to stop using github. The most valuable part of Github are its enterprise customers, that's where Microsoft will have to earn it back and it probably won't rock the boat to endanger that. I'm sure they will try to make it attractive for those enterprise customers to use the wider Microsoft ecosystem, but I don't see how they could accomplish that by sabotage either.

I expect quality of life improvements for customers to test and put into production code for Azure for instance, that is no skin off the back of existing users. If they harm github it will almost certainly be due to incompetence rather than malice.

[Simon]

yes the same sort of incompetence that is driving users away from hotmail because they can't cope with a server move.....

[HoracioDos]

Microsoft is a massive sponsor of the Linux foundation. Linux foundation is basically a large paid up lobbying group built by large manufacturers and users of Linux. They use it to force change where possible.

I see what you mean. I was thinking, if your company is into AI, Machine Learning, Robotics, Cryptography, Blockchain, etc. Will you have your code hosted outside premises. It would be interesting to read opinions from them. In every big company I worked for source code was never outside.

[HoracioDos]

It seems to be a very simple plan for a 7.5B acquisition.

The most valuable part of Github are its enterprise customers, that's where Microsoft will have to earn it back and it probably won't rock the boat to endanger that. I'm sure they will try to make it attractive for those enterprise customers to use the wider Microsoft ecosystem, but I don't see how they could accomplish that by sabotage either.

I agree. I'm just surprised about how they will do such amount of money or get profit with enterprise customers. Also I read somewhere that GitHub raised 250M from a second investment round and they are burning money as crazy ones.

[bd139]

Microsoft is a massive sponsor of the Linux foundation. Linux foundation is basically a large paid up lobbying group built by large manufacturers and users of Linux. They use it to force change where possible.

I see what you mean. I was thinking, if your company is into AI, Machine Learning, Robotics, Cryptography, Blockchain, etc. Will you have your code hosted outside premises. It would be interesting to read opinions from them. In every big company I worked for source code was never outside.

Some really big financials use it. You’d be surprised.

Really Microsoft don’t want your IP. It’s as safe there as it is in your office. They want market domination and want you tied to a subscription because that’s guaranteed cash flow for them. GitHub is another little revenue stream and dependency which is hard for you to shake off.

Edit: just popped into my head. MS wants to be your pimp and wants you to be the crack whore.

[Simon]

Edit: just popped into my head. MS wants to be your pimp and wants you to be the crack whore.

That is a perfect description of what most corporates want.

[Marco]

I agree. I'm just surprised about how they will do such amount of money or get profit with enterprise customers.

If it can shift the balance between Amazon and Azure by say 10% for a couple of years they can earn it back pretty quickly, not sure github integration in and of itself could improve the value of Azure that much ... but maybe?

PS. Github will provide local repositories for their enterprise customers, or on cloud "servers" "owned" by the enterprise.

[VK3DRB]

I use Altium 18 with GIT. It is buggy, so I am considering going back to SVN. Microsoft taking over GIT in will just break it completely, like they did with Skype.

[Simon]

hahahahahahahahahaha Altium using a MS service.... perfect, they are made for each other, one as shit as the other, you just won't notice the difference.....

[nugglix]

I use Altium 18 with GIT. It is buggy, so I am considering going back to SVN. Microsoft taking over GIT in will just break it completely, like they did with Skype.

Github != git

git is free and open source.
github is a service provided by a company.

Don't mix them up!

[bd139]

SVN is still better for on disk formats that can’t be merged due to centralised locking being possible.

[Beamin]

Developers are hired by dum managers that want an easy life. Support staff are not always the sharpest and often work off a script, the more platform combinations you serve the harder the inevitable support is. Solid edge will only support the latest version on windows 10 and even then you are lucky if they acknowledge you have found yet another bug. I had a problem with lack of consistency in how their software did display background colours with the main software and the viewer doing 2 different things. Unsurprisingly they have ditched the viewer......

So frustrating  when you need something done on the other end like comcast or Verizon and you have to explain to them how to do their job.


I once tried to download MS flight simulator from Microsoft and pay for it and there was something wrong with their server I reluctantly let them control my computer and the person tried to download the program from third party site because microsoft's site wasn't working and I had to explain to them I specifically wanted alegit copy not some free site that puts malware on your computer.


The final solution with three different tech support people was to try another internet connection; IE switch ISP's and have them come out to the house install new FIOS or comcast hardware etc. REALLY? OK let me just payoff my contract spend a day waiting for the installer to change everything then when I try to download, and guess what? That wouldn't have worked if I was dumb enough to try because their server wasn't working. It's like they think that any problem is user error or someone elses network. I could never get that download to work.


Or I needed to do a hard reset on my nook because it was unusable  and five minutes into the phone call I realized the person had never even touched a nook. Not their fault a nook costs two months pay but seriously the most their training is, is a cardboard cut out and a flow chart of problems? Deviate one step and the whole thing breaks down because the person could not say the phrase "I don't know I have never used a nook before".
"Using one finger of your right hand press once on the button located at the bottom of your barnes and noble brand nook color wireless e reader. Now using one finger of your right hand press the slide bar over located at the bottom of your barnes and noble brand nook color wireless e reader."

"Stop saying that! Just call it a nook or device! This isn't a commercial."

Everything is dumbed down I liked it better when the dumb people had to catch up.

[GlennSprigg]

This 'News' is shocking !!!!!!
'Microsoft' have always liked to 'Control' everything.....
They didn't 'Get-It' when the real free Internet as we know it first started, and they decided
to start their own "M.S.N." which was doomed for what it stood for....
They couldn't stand having say... 'Javascript' unleashed on the 'World', so they HAD to try
to 'force' their OWN version, 'VBScript', and tried to make 'Browsers' adhere to THEM !!
They CAN NOT ACCEPT that there are FREE services, that go BEYOND THEM !!!!!
Now taking over 'Github' ??.... sigh.......

[Nominal Animal]

Everything is dumbed down I liked it better when the dumb people had to catch up.

There is too many of us them dumb ones nowadays.

To be honest, I would prefer the world to have some non-human sharp edges, so that the most stupid and violent ones would, uh, easily find a way to remove themselves from the population. Even if I belonged to the unfortunate group myself. That sort of a world would be much more interesting than the one we have, what with current rules being apparently designed for the lowest common denominator: those with no impulse control or self-control..

I still recall my reaction when I first saw a repetitive strain injury warning printed on a keyboard between cursor keys and the numpad. Until that point, I thought the story about the old granny who dried her cat after a bath in a microwave, was an urban legend.

[Simon]

Yes the world has become a boring place and the stupid need protecting. our evolution is in fact going backwards.

[bd139]

Perhaps as engineers we need to make things more lethal again 

[Simon]

Sadly we are not allowed any more.

[bd139]

Aldi seem to manage it with their cheap imported tools.

[Simon]

well yea, but we want quality lethal

[Nominal Animal]

It's not fun if stuff is randomly lethal; that just makes for timid, scared people.

It needs to be stuff like not wearing a helmet when driving a bike.  Like increased sentences when one commits a crime when under the influence, not lesser sentences (because you chose to drink/partake and do, regardless of the consequences).  Consequences for stupidity or lack of thought.

One might think that'd be unfair, but the real world isn't fair or moral anyway, and if we ensure the worst kind of humans have the most kids, we most definitely doom the entire race; that's just biology.  I don't trust any human to make the decision on who gets to procreate; I'd rather it be "natural" in the sense that before people have the opportunity to procreate, they'd have ample opportunity to nix themselves due to their stupidity (but not for random causes, or because of others' decision).

As to the topic at hand, regardless of who bought GitHub, I do not like the idea of more and more services being provided by very few supercorps.  I trust competition, not people; and to compete on a level playing field, competitors cannot be allowed to become larger than laws.  (Otherwise, it's like letting some people win because they belong to a group that is supposed to win, not because they play better.)

[bd139]

We could replace all helmets with melons. That would pick off a few percent of people.

Agree with very few supercorps. It wasn’t like there weren’t any warnings of this in science fiction in the last few decades: OCP, Weyland Yutani, Tyrell, Cyberdyne, Soylent, ICS, Umbrella, Zorin, US Robotics...

[Nominal Animal]

The other annoying set (which I hope GitHub will not become part of) is small companies who partner with Microsoft and Microsoft only.  I just got aggravated in a discussion where people do not understand that if you work for a company whose only product is dependent on Microsoft's goodwill (like, say, a NTFS driver), you are at least as much swayed by external-facing Microsoft policies as Microsoft employees are.  Essentially, either your tongue is very brown, or the future of your company is uncertain. Moreso when you have actual legal agreements with MS.

That too is more about huge companies bigger than small countries, and not that much about Microsoft per se.  Google might have a slightly better history with its partners (Android), but not by much.  None of the huge IT companies are much better.  The threat of a lawsuit from them is enough to kill any small to mid-sized company, no matter how good proof you have. They have the money and the political pull to make even outrageously funny legal theories fly enough to cost you too much to survive. (Just look at the SCO-IBM saga; it's still not over.)

[Simon]

Oh you mean like dotNET which guarantees paint.NET will always be windows only

[Tandy]

Well it seems that the Microsoft haters will drop github, and if they are not paying customers the Microsoft execs won't care because looking at their spreadsheet all they will see is a drop in costs for hosting free repositories.

Most of them will probably go to GitLab, as people are like lemmings and will follow the crowd. GitLab will then have a problem, they will have a sudden increase in users and have to scale up quickly to keep up with demand. But they have already had 5 rounds of funding 2 seed investors and 3 lots of venture capital. What happens when they burn through what is left of their October 2017 investment to add all this extra capacity? VC investors will not keep throwing money into a company that is loosing money.

One of two things will happen the investors will be convinced that the surge in users will create a critical mass of users that can be monitized and will make a further investment. Or the investors will force a sale, using the increased numbers as a selling point for someone else to monitize. Who will make such an investment? Probably somebody like IBM or Oracle who would be expecting to sell support contracts to corporate users. I wonder how many Microsoft haters also hate IBM and Oracle, as much as Microsoft or possibly more?

The real issue though is what will happen to GitHub? My prediction is that 'influencers' who are not necessarily paying customers will move to gitlab, Microsoft will start making 'improvments' to Github that push more people away. Eventually much like sourceforge it will loose market share and will be left with those who just can't be bothered to change or have locked themselves in through some sort of Microsoft corporate agreement.

As for an opinion about Microsoft, the problem is past business decisions have left the Microsoft name with a less than ideal reputation and that is really going to be a problem for something like Github. I tend to think that they have changed a lot in recent years, but a huge corporation is difficult to steer quickly. The developers of VS Code have shown that parts of Microsoft can do quite well at working within an open source environment and produce something really quite good. So the future of github really depends on who gets put in charge of it. If it is someone with the old Microsoft software business model then it will fail quite quickly, if it somehow gets rolled into the same team as VS Code it could well do quite well.

[bd139]

Oh you mean like dotNET which guarantees paint.NET will always be windows only

Err no. We're even deploying .Net on Linux. https://github.com/dotnet/core/blob/master/release-notes/2.1/2.1-supported-os.md

Actually not a lot of people know this but .Net was developed at Microsoft Research. The original target was FreeBSD, the build system for it was written in Perl. This goes back a loooong way: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc749640.aspx

Tandy: that's about it. But you don't need a central place to hang out when you know how to use git properly.

[Simon]

So did microsoft ever intend .net for anything but windows? I don't know anything about programming on windows/linux but i got the impression .net was going to provide developers with easy tools only to find that it could not work an anything else. I have to have several versions of .net installed to make programs work, that really does not platform independent.

[bd139]

Well MSR intended it to be for all platforms from day one. However the commercial team saw it as an escape from DCOM etc and killed all funding for any platforms other than Windows. Thank Ballmer for that fuck up. There was a major mutiny a few years back when they started shipping the new metro interface. "devdiv" at microsoft (developer tools/azure etc) started branching out on their own and looking at other platforms and worked out that the key to success was pushing in that direction. So they did. And it worked pretty well.

Now in 2018 VScode + .Net run on ALL major platforms. Unfortunately perhaps, if they had done this a decade ago they might be #1 software platform but everyone else got in before that. That means there's mindshare elsewhere now. From a developer experience point of view, C# is absolutely the best general purpose language I've used and the CLR is crazy fast and scalable. However it's run by a schizophrenic monopolist so I can't invest in it. Been burned by churn too many times.

There have been several major "steppings" of .Net which means you usually have to have a specific major version but other than that it's mostly backwards compatible. Apathy from the developers of what you are installing is usually the cause of having to install lots of different versions.

[Nominal Animal]

the Microsoft haters will drop github

hate ≠ mistrust.

I wonder how many Microsoft haters also hate IBM and Oracle, as much as Microsoft or possibly more?

I wonder when the Microsoft proponents will finally stop eating children?

[bd139]

Just a point: I despise Oracle and IBM even more than MSFT. They are just totally irrelevant in my daily life.

And Larry Ellison probably does eat children on his super villain island.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

They couldn't stand having say... 'Javascript' unleashed on the 'World', so they HAD to try
to 'force' their OWN version, 'VBScript', and tried to make 'Browsers' adhere to THEM !!

And IE... we've had to suffer it for a decade. What a pile of crap.

http://google.com/search?q=ie+must+die

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

And Larry Ellison probably does eat children on his super villain island.

And he was best friends with S. Jobs...

[Tandy]

hate ≠ mistrust.

Well maybe hate was too strong a word, but the point stands, anyone who has a reason dislike Microsoft will jump and there is really nothing that can be done about that. On the whole I don't tend to use Microsoft products, I have recently started using VS Code however, as a replacement for Eclipse. Interestingly I almost overlooked VS Code due to past experiences with Microsoft software but pleasantly surprised when I tried it out. So for those like me who are not particularly tied to Microsoft products but are open minded enough to try things on their individual merits then Github could survive an exodus if Microsoft don't mess it up. They will have to tread carefully and work hard at avoiding messing things up or it will go south very quickly as frustrated users will quickly follow in the footsteps of those who have already left 'because Microsoft'.

[Beamin]

Aldi seem to manage it with their cheap imported tools.

We have those in America but it only sells food. Really good prices for generic brand granola and nutrigrain bars and some vegetables and fruit. It generic brand everything actually. I wouldn't eat the meat from there though, and certainly not the fish at those prices there has to be some compromise to make it that cheap.

 $200 fills an entire grocery cart which is unheard of in this area. One place called Giant (Giant prices) had a full grocery cart out front with the bill stuck to it for <200$. Huge sign read: "WHOLE CART OF FOOD FOR UNDER (198.37) TWO HUNDRED DOLLARS!" When I lifted some of the things I noticed most of the cart was filled with a big black felt covered box that filled 3/4 of the cart. So I took out the box and repacked just the bottom of the cart barely 1/5 full. That's so slimy and deceptive unless they include the felt box with food in it. Next week it had plexi glass over it, so I bought one thing and left.


I have picture on a HDD somewhere. Oh but I saved $0.03 cents a gallon on gas (14X0.03= $0.42 but cost of eggs was $3.49 vs $0.79 at the store that doesn't have the "rewards card" So net loss on one item = $2.28 cents to save less then $0.50 on gas. DOLLAR COST AVERAGING AND MATH BITCHES! Imagine the whole cart at $800? To make a Mexican dinner I spent 80.00$ at this place for one days meal for four people. People fall for this all the time because they are too lazy to do out the math, they could do it but their brain says : gas is expensive I save on gas when I shop here. And the money saved on gas could be realized just by going to a generic brand gas station that isn't out of the way.

[Bassman59]

Tandy: that's about it. But you don't need a central place to hang out when you know how to use git properly.

Exactly! I see "value" in something like Github (and Sourceforge and Launchpad and OpenCores and ...) if the goal is for the project to be a true far-flung open-source project. But for someone's personal project? Why bother. How many projects are on those services that have one or two commits and were then abandoned by their creators? Nobody cares about your "open-source" project!

It's pretty easy to set up a git or Subversion repository on your home network. Only if your open-source project takes off and gets serious interest from other developers, then migrating to a service such as Github then makes sense, as you offload the hosting, the backups, the bandwidth.

Small companies like mine who need a VCS but don't need the issue trackers and the ability for far-flung developers to access the system can set one up on a box in the server room without much trouble. For more complex requirements, outsourcing to a provider makes a lot of sense, and in those cases even if hosted on Github those repositories aren't public.

[Nominal Animal]

So for those like me who are not particularly tied to Microsoft products

and don't have much at stake, you mean? 

Several of my former colleagues were forced to move from using local mail programs (whatever they wanted) to Office365. As IT support types with distributed internal clients and many concurrently ongoing projects, they relied heavily on filtering, to essentially triage their mail torrent based on sender, recipient, and subject keywords; essentially, filters did the hard work of prioritizing which mails to read and handle.  Now that they must use Office365, they say they simply cannot filter their mails that way. They just miss some of their mails, because the tool doesn't work well enough.

Because the decision to move to Office365 was made at the executive level, they have very few options left. They either accept the added cognitive load, or switch jobs.

It isn't that much of a stretch to compare Office365 interfaces to other mail clients, and extrapolate that to what the likely/possible direction MS will take the Azure-Github-for-Enterprise.  When they capture the larger organizations, then you either use those half-crippled MS tools, or go work somewhere else.

[HoracioDos]

Today on Slate.com

As for GitHub, it’s just the latest in a string of major Microsoft acquisitions (Skype, Minecraft, LinkedIn) that seek to move the company away from Windows and toward a much broader set of services for people using any kind of device. This time, really, the profits don’t matter: Microsoft is paying by issuing about 73 million new shares of stock, which cost it nothing. (It’s a tiny dilution, given the company’s 7.7 billion shares outstanding; what’s more, the share price rose on the news, which means that existing shareholders are happy to be diluted.)

GitHub is not being bought for its revenues, but rather for the promise (a promise not everyone is convinced can be realized) that it will be able to turn Microsoft into an even more developer-friendly place than it already is. No more will GitHub’s managers need to worry about how their new CEO is going to lead them to profitability. Instead, they can concentrate on simply providing the very best service to their customers, who will end up spending dozens of hours a month inside the Microsoft ecosystem. For the Redmond, Washington, giant, that’s priceless—and all at a price much less than it would cost to, say, buy Red Hat, another open-source darling that currently has a market capitalization north of $30 billion.

[Beamin]

So for those like me who are not particularly tied to Microsoft products

and don't have much at stake, you mean? 

Several of my former colleagues were forced to move from using local mail programs (whatever they wanted) to Office365. As IT support types with distributed internal clients and many concurrently ongoing projects, they relied heavily on filtering, to essentially triage their mail torrent based on sender, recipient, and subject keywords; essentially, filters did the hard work of prioritizing which mails to read and handle.  Now that they must use Office365, they say they simply cannot filter their mails that way. They just miss some of their mails, because the tool doesn't work well enough.

Because the decision to move to Office365 was made at the executive level, they have very few options left. They either accept the added cognitive load, or switch jobs.

It isn't that much of a stretch to compare Office365 interfaces to other mail clients, and extrapolate that to what the likely/possible direction MS will take the Azure-Github-for-Enterprise.  When they capture the larger organizations, then you either use those half-crippled MS tools, or go work somewhere else.

When I had a business that had email, I had to use outlook; but the spam mail would cripple it. Literally wasting precious time to go through it and find real customers. So many minutes wasted just deleting everyday because it didn't have functions like gmail. Don't know if they fixed it but it sucked balls and I'm glad it was only a small part of the business.


I do have outlook now I used for a month and it had so many options for IT people that it sucked to manage only three mailboxes. From one extreme to the other.

[bd139]

I use FastMail for my business email. Works nicely and not much admin overhead.

[Simon]

Outlook is not great. I use it as I have office 365 as i have no choice but i actually use my phone to do the spam filtering as outlook sucks. You can only block an address not the whole domain unless you go around setting up elaborate filters by hand. I use Blue mail on my phone and it is great as in a few taps you can block 1 address, or the whole domain or in some cases (and i suggested this to them and they implemented it) a TLD. while blocking a TLD should be done with caution it is really handy for all of those stupid new ones like *.date, *.business, *.live and soooooo many more that get used for nothing but spam. It is actually great, all of the spammers use the TLD's that no serious business uses and in 2 taps the whole TLD can be blocked. Outlook for android is a disaster and barely a mail reader, it has no functionality at all.

Microsoft seem to wreck everything they touch, since they took over linkedin nothing works for me, an invite that I think the other person cancelled i still get reminders about even though it is not there, links from emails fail to work. So good luck Github.....

[Naguissa]

So for those like me who are not particularly tied to Microsoft products

and don't have much at stake, you mean? 

Several of my former colleagues were forced to move from using local mail programs (whatever they wanted) to Office365. As IT support types with distributed internal clients and many concurrently ongoing projects, they relied heavily on filtering, to essentially triage their mail torrent based on sender, recipient, and subject keywords; essentially, filters did the hard work of prioritizing which mails to read and handle.  Now that they must use Office365, they say they simply cannot filter their mails that way. They just miss some of their mails, because the tool doesn't work well enough.

Because the decision to move to Office365 was made at the executive level, they have very few options left. They either accept the added cognitive load, or switch jobs.

It isn't that much of a stretch to compare Office365 interfaces to other mail clients, and extrapolate that to what the likely/possible direction MS will take the Azure-Github-for-Enterprise.  When they capture the larger organizations, then you either use those half-crippled MS tools, or go work somewhere else.

When I had a business that had email, I had to use outlook; but the spam mail would cripple it. Literally wasting precious time to go through it and find real customers. So many minutes wasted just deleting everyday because it didn't have functions like gmail. Don't know if they fixed it but it sucked balls and I'm glad it was only a small part of the business.


I do have outlook now I used for a month and it had so many options for IT people that it sucked to manage only three mailboxes. From one extreme to the other.

I use gmail for users (i have no time to waste) and postfix + spf + dkim + dmark for server, in a subdomain. Best option for 100 000 daily emails, with around 1M peaks some days....

But... was this thread about GitHub?

[bd139]

postfix FTW.  I designed and maintain our outbound postfix relay architecture to replace SES. Lovely bit of software. DMARC/DKIM is still a pain in the ass though.

Apparently it was github but MSFT like to fuck up stuff so we’re doing history lessons, analogies and future predictions too.

[Nominal Animal]

Don't know if they fixed it but it sucked balls and I'm glad it was only a small part of the business.

I'm using extremely heavy filtering in Thunderbird to reduce the effort required to keep up with email, and also to minimize email-related stress. (For example, I do not have any alerts enabled at all.)
I am also one of those users who use a browser with NoScript and AdBlock extensions, with a lot of custom rules.  I have to; if they didn't exist, I'd have to write them myself, to be able to participate.
I do try (hard!) to pay back/forward by being useful/helpful, but me fail often hard ouch.

Apparently it was github but MSFT like to fuck up stuff so we’re doing history lessons, analogies and future predictions too.

Yep. Opinions as such don't really matter, because everyone has their own anyway.

It is the reasons behind those opinions, when they are based on real-world events and experiences, that do matter, because they may prove useful for others.  I personally deleted my GitHub account, because I do not trust Microsoft (to not create gotchas, vendor lock-in traps, or crippled tools enterprise users have to use). I do believe it is also important to realize mistrust != hate and mistrust != dislike, because that mistrust has a long history -- essentially the entire history of Microsoft is full of reasons why not to trust it.

Many people accept Microsoft behaviour as "par for the course", but I disagree.  I do not hate the company, really: I mistrust them and do not approve of their business tactics.  I do hope they'd change, but I'm not expecting them to.  It is like the fact that almost a third of large IT projects in Finland fail, producing no useable results.  That, to me, is huge waste of resources, and should not be acceptable to anyone, definitely not anyone paying their taxes.  It really infuriates me when people just shrug and ignore it as something outside their ken.  Even worse, I am seeing that kind of acceptance of loss of resources creeping to stuff outside IT, too: basically to everything more complex than a reality TV episode.

Of course, we are just speculating as to what the Github purchase means in the short-term, medium-term, and long-term future, especially for heavy/enterprise Github users (as hobby users probably will not be affected). But I understood that this thread exists for such speculation?

[Naguissa]

Don't know if they fixed it but it sucked balls and I'm glad it was only a small part of the business.

I'm using extremely heavy filtering in Thunderbird to reduce the effort required to keep up with email, and also to minimize email-related stress. (For example, I do not have any alerts enabled at all.)
I am also one of those users who use a browser with NoScript and AdBlock extensions, with a lot of custom rules.  I have to; if they didn't exist, I'd have to write them myself, to be able to participate.
I do try (hard!) to pay back/forward by being useful/helpful, but me fail often hard ouch.

Apparently it was github but MSFT like to fuck up stuff so we’re doing history lessons, analogies and future predictions too.

Yep. Opinions as such don't really matter, because everyone has their own anyway.

It is the reasons behind those opinions, when they are based on real-world events and experiences, that do matter, because they may prove useful for others.  I personally deleted my GitHub account, because I do not trust Microsoft (to not create gotchas, vendor lock-in traps, or crippled tools enterprise users have to use). I do believe it is also important to realize mistrust != hate and mistrust != dislike, because that mistrust has a long history -- essentially the entire history of Microsoft is full of reasons why not to trust it.

Many people accept Microsoft behaviour as "par for the course", but I disagree.  I do not hate the company, really: I mistrust them and do not approve of their business tactics.  I do hope they'd change, but I'm not expecting them to.  It is like the fact that almost a third of large IT projects in Finland fail, producing no useable results.  That, to me, is huge waste of resources, and should not be acceptable to anyone, definitely not anyone paying their taxes.  It really infuriates me when people just shrug and ignore it as something outside their ken.  Even worse, I am seeing that kind of acceptance of loss of resources creeping to stuff outside IT, too: basically to everything more complex than a reality TV episode.

Of course, we are just speculating as to what the Github purchase means in the short-term, medium-term, and long-term future, especially for heavy/enterprise Github users (as hobby users probably will not be affected). But I understood that this thread exists for such speculation?

Finland?

You had Nokia,... well, it has returned now.,. kinda.

But I still use my Jolla as my cellphone, 4.5+ years later.,,.


I live in Barcelona, Spain. We have toros, paella and ole.,,.

[Nominal Animal]

You had Nokia,...

It was a fluke, a happy accident.

Things like the Apotti project are more Finnish in style. They've budgeted 575 M€ (385 M€ for IT part) for something Estonia (about 1/5th the size of Finland) successfully implemented for 20 M€.  My prediction, based on how similar but smaller projects have been implemented in Finland in the last 30 years or so, is that it will balloon to over 1 G€, then left in partially-implemented limbo with higher yearly costs than currently, plus that 1 G€ written completely off as a loss.  The project leaders get no backlash at all for the failure, and the media will treat them with silk gloves.  It is a pretty big deal, considering the entire government budget is only 56 G€/year or so.

[Bassman59]

Outlook is not great.

That Magic 8-ball, it knows everything!