Dilbert loses newspapers, publishers, distributor, and possibly its website

[Nominal Animal]

My own conclusion, largely based on my personal contacts and observations wrt. teacher education in the last two decades.  I could have prefaced that paragraph with "in my opinion", but I thought it obvious.

I will continue to regard this as your opinion, until I see evidence of this connection.

Why don't you check out the links I provided, then?  Or do you not consider the mathematical literacy dropping to 16th place in 2018, from 2nd place in 2006, as being significant?

Just out of interest, what else could it be?  Kids nowadays being stupider than before?  Or do you believe that Occam's razor cannot be applied when the conclusions are contrary to your current ideology?  Or perhaps PISA scores somehow do not reflect the truth?

The one big change there is, is the core curriculum.  Group sizes are no larger on average than they were in the mid-nineties.  There used to be special needs classes, but no longer because "inclusivity" – which is stated as part of the core curriculum.  Similarly for "community learning" or "social learning", which is opposite to the princples applied in Estonia.  Which, by the way, is doing exceptionally well, better than any other Western country.

Why doesn't Finland follow Estonia's lead?  (There must be something more than just our minister of education, Li Andersson, not appreciating Estonia as it is too right-wing for her tastes –– she does describe herself as a Marxist, after all.)

It also sounds like other typical populist statements.

Sounds?  To whom?  Do you have any basis for that, or are you just calling me a populist because you don't like me?

I've nothing to complain about. In fact, teaching and schools in Finland today are superior compared to the schools I attended to as a kid.

Ah, so you ascribe to the "kids nowadays are just stupider than we were" or to the "PISA scores do not reflect reality" stances, then?

Very good, sir.

[tszaboo]

I tend to agree with Dave that the problem is in the society -if that is what he is suggesting-.

Yes, the grievance/victim/oppresor culture is being actively taught in the universities and filters out into society. it's a well documented phenomenom actually and has been happening for decades. Social media gave the movement god-like powers.
Adams touched on this in todays live show, talking about success mindsets, and how an SJW/DEI/ESG focussed mindset is ultimately a guaranteed losing mindset.

I don't think there was a self-made CEO of any company who was socialist. It's just an incompatible mindset with it.
But they started to place diversity hires into these positions, and then somehow the company's bottom line suffers. I wonder why?
The Silicon Valley Bank that went out of business? The lady responsible for the risk assessment of the company's assets was more concerned about wokeness than doing her job, they put their money into junk bonds, interest rate went up. They gave bonuses to everyone hours before closing down.
So we are at a stage, where you have to interview your bank, your kindergarden teacher, your doctor, your employer, insurance provider, and so on. "Hey, how woke are you? Are you going to act in my best interest, or are  you just an NPC, brainwashed with social propaganda?"

[JohanH]

Why don't you check out the links I provided, then?  Or do you not consider the mathematical literacy dropping to 16th place in 2018, from 2nd place in 2006, as being significant?

I don't dispute numbers, that's not the point.

Sounds?  To whom?  Do you have any basis for that, or are you just calling me a populist because you don't like me?

It sounded like that to me. But now you are assuming things. I haven't said that I don't like you. Actually I like your forum profile, because you have very insightful posts in this forum. I meant that it sounded like such a statement, because you connected two things that don't yet have been shown to have such a connection. That's typical for populist statements.

Ah, so you ascribe to the "kids nowadays are just stupider than we were" or to the "PISA scores do not reflect reality" stances, then?

No, I didn't say anything about that. My experience of the current education has been positive. It could be a subjective experience and I cannot tell how successful the whole system is. Of course I can see that PISA scores are worse. And for what I know, the curriculum could be one of the causes (but it could very well be other factors also). I don't dispute numbers. It's your connection to the "cancel mob" that I don't see.

[PlainName]

I don't think there was a self-made CEO of any company who was socialist. It's just an incompatible mindset with it.

Julian Richer?

In November 2013 Julian Richer announced to the press that, upon his death, he would bequeath 100% of the firm to a trust co-owned by employees of the company.[3][4] In May 2019 Richer, then aged 60, announced that he had transferred ownership to employees by passing 60% of his shares to a trust,[5] as well as separately paying each of his over 500 employees, excluding directors,[6] from his own pocket a thank you bonus of £1,000[7] for every year of work, a total of about £4 million, as the employees had worked for an average of 8 years each.

[fourfathom]

it sounded like such a statement, because you connected two things that don't yet have been shown to have such a connection. That's typical for populist statements.

Wow. 

This "correlation = causation" belief is typical for *all* groups.  And in many cases, the correlation is no better than random chance.  Here I see this mostly in left-wing groups, but sure, right-wing or center groups also do this.  It's just that on the West coast USA where I live (San Francisco / Portland / Seattle), all the noise comes from the left.

[vk6zgo]

I tend to agree with Dave that the problem is in the society -if that is what he is suggesting-.

Yes, the grievance/victim/oppresor culture is being actively taught in the universities and filters out into society. it's a well documented phenomenom actually and has been happening for decades. Social media gave the movement god-like powers.
Adams touched on this in todays live show, talking about success mindsets, and how an SJW/DEI/ESG focussed mindset is ultimately a guaranteed losing mindset.

I don't think there was a self-made CEO of any company who was socialist. It's just an incompatible mindset with it.
But they started to place diversity hires into these positions, and then somehow the company's bottom line suffers. I wonder why?
The Silicon Valley Bank that went out of business? The lady responsible for the risk assessment of the company's assets was more concerned about wokeness than doing her job, they put their money into junk bonds, interest rate went up. They gave bonuses to everyone hours before closing down.
So we are at a stage, where you have to interview your bank, your kindergarden teacher, your doctor, your employer, insurance provider, and so on. "Hey, how woke are you? Are you going to act in my best interest, or are  you just an NPC, brainwashed with social propaganda?"

Banks have been failing as long as banks have existed, & even if everybody eschewed "wokeness" forever, would continue to fail from time to time.
There is an old saying----- "whenever I see a "self made" man, it restores my faith in the Almighty."

"Self made men" are quite commonly absolute turds, however, they are quite often competent.

Many CEOS these days went to Uni to study how to be Bosses, got their heads full of idiotic management theory, & set out to make as large a personal fortune as they can, even if their incompetence leaves a trail of failed or close to failing companies behind them.

Strangely, even with a disastrous record behind them, boards continue to employ such people, who are so self obsessed that they have no identification with their company, let alone any consideration of "woke" things.

Meanwhile, ordinary employees who do identify with the company are "kicked to the kerb" without a thought.

[TimFox]

Several right-wing American politicians stated that SVB failed due to "wokeness".
The New York Times fact-check department, pooping the party, checked the normal "D&I" and "ESG" scorekeepers for the financial industry and found SVB parked right near the middle/median of its peer group.
Facts are for losers.

[Wallace Gasiewicz]

Several right-wing American politicians stated that SVB failed due to "wokeness".
The New York Times fact-check department, pooping the party, checked the normal "D&I" and "ESG" scorekeepers for the financial industry and found SVB parked right near the middle/median of its peer group.
Facts are for losers.

Not to blame "wokeness" entirely for the bank failure but...
And you believe the New York Times "Fact Check"?

If you do I have some cal equipment to sell....HA!

[tszaboo]

Several right-wing American politicians stated that SVB failed due to "wokeness".
The New York Times fact-check department, pooping the party, checked the normal "D&I" and "ESG" scorekeepers for the financial industry and found SVB parked right near the middle/median of its peer group.
Facts are for losers.

Thank you, for making the point for us: Even moderately woke companies are mismanaged beyond any help.

[james_s]

What is the key here, is that not all who have left-leaning political views are cancelists!

Note that I myself pointed out that in the past, when the mainstream conformist pressure was towards conservatism, the cancelist/shunners were conservative.  This all goes down into herd mentality and social pressure mechanisms in urban environments.

Throughout recent history (last couple hundred years or so at least) this was mostly a right leaning thing and the liberal left were the ones pushing for free speech and defending the right of people to talk about anything without being punished. I'm not sure when this changed exactly but it seems like it was just the last 20 years or so and only in maybe the last 10 years that it has become mainstream.

[TimFox]

Several right-wing American politicians stated that SVB failed due to "wokeness".
The New York Times fact-check department, pooping the party, checked the normal "D&I" and "ESG" scorekeepers for the financial industry and found SVB parked right near the middle/median of its peer group.
Facts are for losers.

Not to blame "wokeness" entirely for the bank failure but...
And you believe the New York Times "Fact Check"?

If you do I have some cal equipment to sell....HA!

There are several rating agencies for "D&I" and "ESG".
My brokerage lists their ratings on common stocks, for those who are interested.
The NY Times merely quoted those agencies to determine "wokeness".
Why should I distrust their quotation compared to unsupported comments from politicians?

[Nominal Animal]

It's your connection to the "cancel mob" that I don't see.

It is a connection that I find extremely interesting.

We have a significant drop in Finnish PISA scores between 2009 and 2012.  Because these are comprehensive school students' scores, something changed significantly between year 2000 and 2012.  During this decade, the curriculum was updated in 2004.  It can be found in Finlex (finnish), and the publication actually delivered to teachers here in Swedish and for example here in Finnish.  The earlier version from 1994 is only available in paper form, I believe.

The steepest drop in PISA scores was in mathematics in 2012.  If we look at the math section above, the goals, content, and criteria have not significantly changed.  So, it is not like the materials that the pupils study has changed.

However, the 2004 introduction is full of the Finnish leftist keywords: "arvopohja", "yhteisöllisyys", "monikulttuurisuus", "yhteisöllinen oppiminen".

It is important to note that the entire concept of "yhteisöllinen oppiminen", collaborative learning, is based on Soviet concepts of education, specifically Lev Vygotskys zone of proximal development.  It is used wholesale as the basis for 'inclusivity' later on, completely ignoring all its well-known weaknesses: unsuitable for large classrooms, with risk of students losing interest or even invalid peer-learning (which interestingly is one possible mechanism explaining the PISA score drops); with medium-learners at worst risk (because they learn best in small groups with similar peers, contrary to what ZOPE concept suggests).

Everything I can see here points to well-meaning, but ideologically fixated people trying to turn Finnish comprehensive school into something that performs their own Marxist-Leninist ideology.  Exactly like I've explained how the cancelists believe they're making the world a better place, but are actually just making things worse on the long run.

A good example of this is the recent debacle, when (the parent of) a young pupil wanted to add the text "there are only two sexes" to their school work.  (In Finnish, there is only one word for all four aspects of sex and gender, "sukupuoli".  Biologically, the statement is a fact.  Hermaphrodites belong to both, intersex to either one (which can be arbitrary if and only if they are not capable of biological reproduction).)  Yet, the teacher/school reported it to the Ombudsman of Equality, which stated the school must deny/reject it or they will be in violation of equality laws in Finland.

(If we look at the ages of the Finnish population in say 2005 (here, Wikipedia), we can see that those aged 50-59 were the largest ever generation in Finland, and considering the typical retirement age of 63 to 65 at that time, that generation would mostly retire before 2012.  If we look at graduates in educational sciences between 2000 and 2016 (stats, Finnish) we'll see that while the typical number of masters' degrees was around 1700, in 2008 there were almost 2600, due to a change in the university programs (before that, many studied directly for a masters, without a bachelors).  However, this did not correspond to any kind of a spike in unemployed teachers (stats, Finnish).  Because most teachers in Finland have a masters degree, and the theses are indexed, looking at the subjects, approaches, and conclusions of the thesis works provides a very good insight into new teachers at finna.fi.)

If I were to collate all the related information, I could show how this all ties in to the current social conformist cancel culture, through the Marxist-Leninist worldview.  I'm not interested in trying to prove it, however, as this is just my observation and current opinion.  Most interestingly, the alternatives, the existing explanations as to why Finnish PISA scores are dropping, are odd.  In 2022, the results were described as 'still brilliant', with the main explanation offered being 'increasing deviation in individual results'.

To be direct, I find your objection similar to how the chief of preventive police measures, Jari Taponen, still insists that "there are no street gangs in Finland", even though the National Bureau of Investigation says it has identified at least ten of them.  The reason is that Taponen is big on Twitter Cancelism, even suing a member of parliament for calling him "a dickless whiner".  Taponen is incapable of admitting the fact that the street gangs exist, because they consist of mainly 18-23 year old immigrants and children of immigrants, and this is contrary to his ideological beliefs (including the one that racism is by definition the majority oppressing a minority, and other Marxist crap).

Just like for a decade now, the increasing overrepresentation of immigrants in sex crimes in the greater Helsinki region, is explained due to 'increase in willingness to report', rather than an actual change in the crimes occurring.  The ideology prevents any fact-based objective examination, leaving only inane excuses and no actions done to rectify the situation.  (That is not about race or ethnicity, though: it is about culture, because very specific nationalities/cultures, rather than ethnicities or races, are overrepresented.  But the ideology of cultural relativism and multiculturalism does not allow for subjecting another culture to criticism, much less any kind of an action, especially if the members of that culture happen to mostly be of a different race.)

[SiliconWizard]

My own conclusion, largely based on my personal contacts and observations wrt. teacher education in the last two decades.  I could have prefaced that paragraph with "in my opinion", but I thought it obvious.

I will continue to regard this as your opinion, until I see evidence of this connection.

Why don't you check out the links I provided, then?  Or do you not consider the mathematical literacy dropping to 16th place in 2018, from 2nd place in 2006, as being significant?

And it's the same in most western countries. And not just with math either.

Meanwhile, the education level keeps rising in asian countries.
And we wonder what our problem is and why we are unable to compete.

[coppice]

Meanwhile, the education level keeps rising in asian countries.
And we wonder what our problem is and why we are unable to compete.

If you have any Asian friends, try talking to them about their kid's education. Whether I talk with Indians, Chinese, Koreans or Japanese they all paint a gloomy picture of low expectations and low effort compared with their own experiences at school. It just isn't as bad as in western countries. I have no idea what you do with a really smart kid in countries like the UK. There are no schooling options that will keep them pushing forward and engaged any more, and teaching them yourself isn't an option for most people.

[JohanH]

It is a connection that I find extremely interesting.

Sorry, this is all very new to me and I would never have made that connection if I hadn't read about it in this thread. It's actually the very first place where I have seen this idea.

All of your explanations for this alleged connection look like right-wing nuttery to me. And I don't know if I care about the subject so much that I would bother gathering more knowledge about it. The things that bother my mind right now are trivial things such as work and family and also the outcome of the Russian war in Ukraine, which will be a deciding step in the history of Europe. I couldn't care less about conservative conspiracy theories right now. Fortunately Finland will probably accepted into NATO. An arrest warrant was issued today by the ICC for Putin. All in all a good day for humanity. Now we can only wait for Trump to be indicted and the world is saved. Yeah, maybe not, but I'll celebrate anyway.

[james_s]

Sorry, this is all very new to me and I would never have made that connection if I hadn't read about it in this thread. It's actually the very first place where I have seen this idea.

All of your explanations for this alleged connection look like right-wing nuttery to me. And I don't know if I care about the subject so much that I would bother gathering more knowledge about it. The things that bother my mind right now are trivial things such as work and family and also the outcome of the Russian war in Ukraine, which will be a deciding step in the history of Europe. I couldn't care less about conservative conspiracy theories right now. Fortunately Finland will probably accepted into NATO. An arrest warrant was issued today by the ICC for Putin. All in all a good day for humanity. Now we can only wait for Trump to be indicted and the world is saved. Yeah, maybe not, but I'll celebrate anyway.

How is it right wing nuttery? Do you have a better explanation? Personally I think we should question (as in test) the theory and any others, clearly *something* has changed that is causing the lowered test scores, so what is it? Is it right wing nuttery to acknowledge that something has changed and speculate on what that something or somethings is/are?

The arrest warrant issued on Putin is useless symbolism, it won't do anything at all, who is going to arrest him? I'd be shocked if Trump is ever indicted too and unfortunately it might do more harm than good because it's going to be labeled a political witch hunt and will galvanize his devout worshippers. I would prefer that he dies, ideally under unambiguously natural circumstances. There will of course be others like him so the world won't be saved. He has very little impact on my day to day life though, if people could just ignore him he would go away.

[JohanH]

How is it right wing nuttery? Do you have a better explanation?

It seems right wing to me, because I've seen similar populist ideas by conservatives and right wing politicians over here. Typically blaming the state, state media, education etc of being too liberal or "leftist". I don't have an explanation for that connection, because I didn't make such a connection. I didn't know that anyone did such a connection to begin with.

I don't think the arrest warrant on Putin is useless. Maybe for the US, because the US haven't recognized the ICC, but 123 other countries have. So at least it has an important symbolic meaning. The ICC has judged several important cases and put war criminals in prison. I don't know if that will ever happen to Putin, but now at least Russia appeasers in Europe will have a harder time licking Putin's *ss, so to speak. It will be much harder to shake his hand without moving to some Arab country afterwards (yes, there are already examples of politicians who did this when Russia started their full scale invasion).

[fourfathom]

There are several rating agencies for "D&I" and "ESG".
My brokerage lists their ratings on common stocks, for those who are interested.
The NY Times merely quoted those agencies to determine "wokeness".
Why should I distrust their quotation compared to unsupported comments from politicians?

Tim, I've not read the NYT article, and I also doubt that "Woke" had much to do with the SVB failure, but aren't these rating agencies looking at the diversity of the employees?  This isn't exactly what has been claimed about the failure of the bank.  Rather, it was suggested that the bank executives spent too much tine on DEI and not enough on financial risk management.  I guess it's obvious (now) that they had poor risk management, but the DEI rating doesn't tell us much about why this happened.

[m k]

All of your explanations for this alleged connection look like right-wing nuttery to me.

stat.fi, Tilastokeskus, come on man, you can do better.

For now you're only proving some earlier points of ideology and incapability.

[PlainName]

The ICC has judged several important cases and put war criminals in prison.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think they've put an active leader of a country in prison, only those that have already been vanquished.

[TimFox]

There are several rating agencies for "D&I" and "ESG".
My brokerage lists their ratings on common stocks, for those who are interested.
The NY Times merely quoted those agencies to determine "wokeness".
Why should I distrust their quotation compared to unsupported comments from politicians?

Tim, I've not read the NYT article, and I also doubt that "Woke" had much to do with the SVB failure, but aren't these rating agencies looking at the diversity of the employees?  This isn't exactly what has been claimed about the failure of the bank.  Rather, it was suggested that the bank executives spent too much tine on DEI and not enough on financial risk management.  I guess it's obvious (now) that they had poor risk management, but the DEI rating doesn't tell us much about why this happened.

My post was about the current poor state of political discourse in the US.  The usual suspects had stated without proof that the bank failure was due to "wokeness".
"DEI" or "D&I" refer to employee diversity, and "ESG" refers to "environmental, social, and governance" issues in operation.
Both concepts have been described as "woke".

[JohanH]

stat.fi, Tilastokeskus, come on man, you can do better.

For now you're only proving some earlier points of ideology and incapability.

I'm not disputing the numbers, I'm saying there is no proved connection between the statistics and the "cancel mob" mentioned above. Correlation does not imply causation. You show me!

[JohanH]

The ICC has judged several important cases and put war criminals in prison.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think they've put an active leader of a country in prison, only those that have already been vanquished.

I think you are right. It's a bit hard to arrest sitting leaders in dictatorships.

[tszaboo]

How is it right wing nuttery? Do you have a better explanation?

It seems right wing to me, because I've seen similar populist ideas by conservatives and right wing politicians over here. Typically blaming the state, state media, education etc of being too liberal or "leftist". I don't have an explanation for that connection, because I didn't make such a connection. I didn't know that anyone did such a connection to begin with.

I don't think the arrest warrant on Putin is useless. Maybe for the US, because the US haven't recognized the ICC, but 123 other countries have. So at least it has an important symbolic meaning. The ICC has judged several important cases and put war criminals in prison. I don't know if that will ever happen to Putin, but now at least Russia appeasers in Europe will have a harder time licking Putin's *ss, so to speak. It will be much harder to shake his hand without moving to some Arab country afterwards (yes, there are already examples of politicians who did this when Russia started their full scale invasion).

Literally nobody was talking about putin until you brough the subject up.
BTW, if politicians are talking about it, it doesn't mean it's not true.

[JohanH]

[
Literally nobody was talking about putin until you brough the subject up.
BTW, if politicians are talking about it, it doesn't mean it's not true.

True.