Product designers that have no idea of reality

[Circlotron]

We recently got a new washing machine, an LG front loader. As with probably all modern washing machines, it is completely controlled by software. That means the designer can do things that were totally impractical in the old days. I’d love to know though, why oh why, when the water is filling, does it have to turn the water supply on and off FOURTEEN TIMES??? Some of those are only 1/2 sec duration. The pipes in our house are a bit noisy, but it was tolerable with the old machine. With this one though I had to fit a water hammer damper thing. The point is though, what are some appliance designers smoking?

[amyk]

To wear out the valves sooner so they can charge you more to replace them?

[floobydust]

It could be firmware for the steamer, or some trick to use less water with the sprayer being switched on and off for more coverage? There's even a tub clean error code.
There are so many error messages and the state-machine so complex now, you really need a PC to view logs and see the sensors and trouble codes.

LG does some pretty weird stuff to get tiny efficiency improvements, look at their fridge linear compressor and the zillion moving parts... and the class-action lawsuit coming because they bagged after 3 years, not covered under the 10-year warranty. Metal chips in the piping. I would not buy their stuff.

Water-hammer is tough on all appliances and taps, it's good you added a damper.

[Andrew McNamara]

Fisher and Paykel used to use the incoming water supply to cool the drive electronics, although they also had a proportional cold valve (probably PWM'ed), so they could command just a gentle flow for cooling. If you bypass the lid interlock on an older F&P smartdrive, you'd actually see them run a small amount of water into the drum for cooling purposes while doing their high-speed spin.

[Circlotron]

We had one of those. Often used to wonder why small amounts of water would be periodically admitted during the wash cycle. Had to open it up and replace one of the push buttons on one occasion. Then it became clear.

[ConKbot]

I refuse to even consider buying washing machines that have problems with mold and bacterial growth despite having relatively strong bleach water in it regularly. Leaving the door open should be the only thing it needs to be fine. Or have they managed to stop using a crap gasket/seal design on front loaders yet? 

[james_s]

Some of them admit the water in smaller pulses, adding a little at a time and allowing it to soak into the clothes and giving the machine time to use whatever method it uses to determine the amount of water necessary. The idea is to use the minimum amount of water required for the load of clothes that is in it.

You might try installing some water hammer arrestors at the water supply behind the machine.

[Rerouter]

My best guess is water pressure compensation. Cycle the valve. Give it a few seconds to soak into the clothes a little. Check the float switch state and continue until ready

Also a second recommendation for an arrestor. You dont want to have a pipe fail in the wall because the pressure spike blows a weak section. (Did this at my parents house when I turned off a tap too quickly)

[ataradov]

I may also depend on the way you add detergent.  Some machines use separate trays for different cycles and they use small portions of water to wash the detergent from the trays.

[ataradov]

Then it became clear.

So what was it?

[Circlotron]

Then it became clear.

So what was it?

That an occasional flow of water was being used to cool the motor drive heat sink on the F&P machine while running.

[Mr. Scram]

A lot of the modern features are the result of attempts to make the machine more efficient. It's not unlikely there's some benefit to adding water slowly and in a more controlled fashion from either a water or energy point of view.

[floobydust]

Less water but ~30X the wear on the fill solenoids and the tiny SOT-223 triacs, shortening the washing machine's trip to the landfill.
Washing machines are over $1,000 and you are paying $1 a load just for the machine alone.

I know many people who replace their washing machine due to the high repair cost.  xxx's dollars to replace a sensor, board, solenoid etc.
Detergent clogging a valve, lint in the pressure sensor tubing, a bad pushbutton switch on the front panel... the machine gets thrown out into landfill.
It's great for manufacturers to keep selling new products. But higher environmental costs given less water and energy but more dumpster traffic.

[Mr. Scram]

Less water but ~30X the wear on the fill solenoids and the tiny SOT-223 triacs, shortening the washing machine's trip to the landfill.
Washing machines are over $1,000 and you are paying $1 a load just for the machine alone.

I know many people who replace their washing machine due to the high repair cost.  xxx's dollars to replace a sensor, board, solenoid etc.
Detergent clogging a valve, lint in the pressure sensor tubing, a bad pushbutton switch on the front panel... the machine gets thrown out into landfill.
It's great for manufacturers to keep selling new products. But higher environmental costs given less water and energy but more dumpster traffic.

There seem to be vast differences between manufacturers in that regard. Most machines provide faster and less economical programs which omit many of the environmental tricks.

[GK]

Or designers restricted by moronic environmental legislation. 

I recently gutted and renovated all of my wet areas. My 40 yo Caroma loo went to the dump and I ended up (after some shopping around in disbelief) compromising on a fancy new all-ceramic dunny with a 4.5L (full flush) cistern, fully compliant with current water-saving legislation.

There was one other dunny with a 6.5L flush (very rare now) but to offset that so as to retain its water-conserving stars, it had the most stupidly small water-holding bowl down the bottom, with a s-bend having a cross-sectional area barely big enough to pass a golf ball through. I just could not believe what I was looking at on the showroom floor. Who or what is supposed to shit in that thing? A toddler or your pet cat? WTF?

Since installing my brand new dunny several weeks ago I have not managed ONE SINGLE shit that could be fully dissapeared with just a single full flush. I think that I haven't been getting enough fiber in my diet lately and I did a bit of doozy Saturday afternoon. That big man poo took SIX full flushes to get rid of, - that's 27 liters of water! My trusty old Caroma would have gobbled down that turd in a single flush without so much as a burp and less than one third the water usage.

In addition to the increased water usage my new, modern so-called "water-conserving" toilet brings in reality, is an another inconvenience that I could happily live without . Because the bowl is designed to hold maybe only half (if that) the volume of water that the old Caroma did, the circumference at the waters edge is much smaller. This means that every damn crap starts sliding down the inside of the bowl from above the water line, mandating a clean up afterwards with the toilet brush every fucking time. And guess what? When you have a toilet brush full of crap you have to flush AGAIN to clean the fucking thing and waste more water again.

Starkly in contrast with my old beloved Caroma it was possible to sometimes briefly question ones sanity, because you'd stand and glance down up after being positively sure that you've dumped your load, but there would be nothing visible in the bowl. A damn ghost shit! - not obstructed by a stupidly narrow bottom of the bowl it would literally make its own way at least partly through the s-bend under the momentum of its own initial velocity.

Hope I haven't ruined anyone's dinner.

[soldar]

My washer does the same and I hate it. Furthermore, I have a "on demand" water heater which cannot start and stop like that. So I have just bypassed the washer's valves and fill the washer manually at the start of the cycle. I fill it in one go and probably somewhat higher than the washer would fill itself. After the washing is finished the rinsing does not do that.

The only one thing I really like about this washer is that it spins really well and the clothes come out almost dry.

[SparkyFX]

does it have to turn the water supply on and off FOURTEEN TIMES??? Some of those are only 1/2 sec duration.

3x for the 3 detergent types or if it is interrupted intentionally 6x
probably 3x additional flushing in between for exchanging the water, + additional flushing if selected

Thats at least 10x for a relatively basic program on a simple, old one.
If the heater is too limited to heat it all up at once or it might choose to not let the temp drop every time, it might break these up into smaller amounts.

Doesn´t help with the water hammer though. Got mine directly behind a water tap and behind the supplied leak stop device, that might help with it.

[Zero999]

Or designers restricted by moronic environmental legislation. 

I recently gutted and renovated all of my wet areas. My 40 yo Caroma loo went to the dump and I ended up (after some shopping around in disbelief) compromising on a fancy new all-ceramic dunny with a 4.5L (full flush) cistern, fully compliant with current water-saving legislation.

There was one other dunny with a 6.5L flush (very rare now) but to offset that so as to retain its water-conserving stars, it had the most stupidly small water-holding bowl down the bottom, with a s-bend having a cross-sectional area barely big enough to pass a golf ball through. I just could not believe what I was looking at on the showroom floor. Who or what is supposed to shit in that thing? A toddler or your pet cat? WTF?

Since installing my brand new dunny several weeks ago I have not managed ONE SINGLE shit that could be fully dissapeared with just a single full flush. I think that I haven't been getting enough fiber in my diet lately and I did a bit of doozy Saturday afternoon. That big man poo took SIX full flushes to get rid of, - that's 27 liters of water! My trusty old Caroma would have gobbled down that turd in a single flush without so much as a burp and less than one third the water usage.

In addition to the increased water usage my new, modern so-called "water-conserving" toilet brings in reality, is an another inconvenience that I could happily live without . Because the bowl is designed to hold maybe only half (if that) the volume of water that the old Caroma did, the circumference at the waters edge is much smaller. This means that every damn crap starts sliding down the inside of the bowl from above the water line, mandating a clean up afterwards with the toilet brush every fucking time. And guess what? When you have a toilet brush full of crap you have to flush AGAIN to clean the fucking thing and waste more water again.

Starkly in contrast with my old beloved Caroma it was possible to sometimes briefly question ones sanity, because you'd stand and glance down up after being positively sure that you've dumped your load, but there would be nothing visible in the bowl. A damn ghost shit! - unobstructed by a stupidly narrow bottom of the bowl it would literally make its own way at least partly through the s-bend under the momentum of its own initial velocity.

Hope I haven't ruined anyone's dinner.

I agree. I've also noticed that the more modern supposedly water saving toilets, require more flushes to get rid of the same shit, than the older ones, thus wasting more water!

I have a dual flush one (a small flush for piss and a big one for crap) but unless I hold the big flush down for a good second, it won't get rid of even the smallest of turds and a big fat log requires more than one flush!

[SparkyFX]

Hope I haven't ruined anyone's dinner.

Reminds me of a classic post in a german forum ... with discussion about diet and all that in there as well. And then there was a TV show that showed the standardized simulation crap manufacturers use to test their toilets...! 

[soldar]

Regarding toilet flushing, it is not only the amount of water but how fast it is dumped in the bowl. I often use a bucket of water because no tank can empty as fast in the bowl as a bucket of water. It also saves some water waste as I often have reasons to dump water which can be put in a bucket and used for the toilet.

Also the drain pipe counts. In one home I have one toilet in the master bedroom which flushes like a dream but the two other toilets in the house, although same model, do not flush as well and I believe it is the drain pipe not being so clear and straight down. Again, a sudden bucket of water does wonders.

[soldar]

I agree. I've also noticed that the more modern supposedly water saving toilets, require more flushes to get rid of the same shit, than the older ones, thus wasting more water!

I have a dual flush one (a small flush for piss and a big one for crap) but unless I hold the big flush down for a good second, it won't get rid of even the smallest of turds and a big fat log requires more than one flush!

I clog toilets so often everywhere I go that my wife says I shit square (turds) and that is why they clog the round toilets.

[Kalvin]

Hope I haven't ruined anyone's dinner.

Tnx, too late and too much information But I do agree that the modern product design is too much of aesthetics and supposed environment friendly, than real-life functionality and usability.

[Circlotron]

To all those that have mentioned it, I do have these fitted. Water hammer is now not a problem, just the repeated on and off of the incoming water during first fill is annoying.

[tszaboo]

Yeah, I have a machine from LG which is like that. The worst thing was that it doesn't work with those "flood guard" inlets. BTW, it was installed by the webshop I ordered it from, so they just used their standard piping. So sometimes it just stopped with an error because the flood guard detected a flood, and cut the water supply.

[GlennSprigg]

As an 'aside'....  Most 'smart' computer controlled washing M/C's these days, allow you to use
your 'SmartPhone' to communicate with it via WiFi/Bluetooth, to observe the process, & faults.
They MAY even allow you to 'change' certain aspects of the operation! (?).
Some though, are locked into say 'Android' & not 'iPhones', and need the latest version O.S.