Author Topic: RS Components order FAIL / UK plug discussion  (Read 22127 times)

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Offline DavidJRobertsonTopic starter

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RS Components order FAIL / UK plug discussion
« on: July 31, 2012, 05:39:47 pm »
A while ago my dad ordered me a Raspberry Pi (http://raspberrypi.org) ARM linux board (Dave likes to call it a dev. board although that's not its intended function...) from RS components, one of the Raspberry Pi Foundation's partners.

Seven weeks or so later we get a package containing everything we ordered - The RPi itself, an ethernet cable, an HDMI cable and a wall wart.
The problem was that they had sent us a wall wart with a European plug, and we live in Scotland so this was completely useless

Fail No. 1:
I watched as my dad ordered, it definitely had a picture of a UK plug. The invoice was marked with a euro plug however.

Fail No. 2:
We emailed RS explaining the situation. They offered to send us the correct wall wart, and told us we could keep the European one.
They mailed us another European one.

Fail No. 3:
We emailed again, explaining the situation. They apologized and put it down to a problem with communication inside the company.
They asked us to send back the two European wall warts (which we did) and said they would make sure to actually send a UK wall wart this time.
They then sent the whole lot again - another Raspberry Pi, more cables and another European wall wart.


I'm not sure whether or not to complain at the last one or just to keep the lot... They're clearly incompetent.

Ah well... At least I can use my phone charger, since they're using micro USB for power.

David.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 07:17:50 pm by DavidJRobertson »
 

Offline Short Circuit

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Re: RS Components Raspberry Pi order triple-FAIL
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2012, 06:01:56 pm »
Clearly something wrong with UK electrical utility system  :P
 

Offline DavidJRobertsonTopic starter

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Re: RS Components Raspberry Pi order triple-FAIL
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2012, 06:08:12 pm »
Clearly something wrong with UK electrical utility system  :P
I'd argue that the design of our (UK) plugs + sockets is among the safest in the world!

Edit: And possibly the most painful to stand on! The pins tend to end up facing upwards if you drop the plug on the floor.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 06:12:13 pm by DavidJRobertson »
 

Offline chrome

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Re: RS Components Raspberry Pi order triple-FAIL
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2012, 06:20:30 pm »
I'd argue that the design of our (UK) plugs + sockets is among the safest in the world!

I want to hear why you would think that.
 

Offline DavidJRobertsonTopic starter

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Re: RS Components Raspberry Pi order triple-FAIL
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2012, 06:42:16 pm »
I'd argue that the design of our (UK) plugs + sockets is among the safest in the world!

I want to hear why you would think that.

Okay, here goes:

All plugs have a earth pin. Although it is sometimes plastic (in the case of "double-insulated" devices), it is always present. Being slightly longer than the live and neutral pins, it is inserted first, moving a spring loaded plastic shutter mechanism which covers the live and neutral holes - so nothing can be inserted in to them accidentally/by a child/whatever. As, in many other countries, not all plugs have an earth pin, it is not possible to do this as non-earthed plugs would be unable to be inserted.

The live and neutral pins also have a plastic covering on the part of them closest to the plug body, so that only the tip of the pins is exposed. The sockets are designed such that the pin will not connect until the plug is inserted past this point. This means that you cannot accidentally touch anything dangerous as the plug is partially inserted, as by the point that the pins actually connect, all of the exposed pins is coated in insulating plastic. With (some) US plugs(as an example), it is trivially easy to touch the pins as they are partially inserted, especially by angling the plug, which is possible because of the design of the sockets combined with the fact that the pins are punched from relatively thin sheet metal.

Our plugs are polarized (unlike, for example, US and European ones). This gives a safety advantage - if the appliance is switched, the switch will always be on the live conductor. This is safer because when the switch is off, there will be no live exposed points in the product - take a toaster as an example: When it is off, one end of the element will be connected to neutral, and the other floating (since the switch is off), so shoving your fingers in there and touching the heater won't result in a shock. If it was connected to live at one end - not so much... Also note that the vast majority of our sockets have integrated switches.

All of our plugs have integrated fuses, unlike some other countries. (although this of course relies on the user to use the correct type of fuse)

The majority of our plugs are moulded on to the cable (I realize this is the case in many other countries too) and cannot be opened and tampered with or plugged in while opened or whatever this week's brand of idiots think it's a good idea to do.

Is that enough convincing?


David.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: RS Components Raspberry Pi order triple-FAIL
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2012, 06:48:46 pm »
In addition, a very clever design feature of UK plugs: If the cord is tugged on, and the wires are pulled from the plug, the live wire is always the first to disconnect, then the neutral, and finally the earth.
 

Offline DavidJRobertsonTopic starter

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Re: RS Components Raspberry Pi order triple-FAIL
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2012, 06:50:55 pm »
In addition, a very clever design feature of UK plugs: If the cord is tugged on, and the wires are pulled from the plug, the live wire is always the first to disconnect, then the neutral, and finally the earth.

Oh yes, forgot about that one. But that only really applies to the non-moulded type.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: RS Components Raspberry Pi order triple-FAIL
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2012, 07:01:19 pm »
In addition, a very clever design feature of UK plugs: If the cord is tugged on, and the wires are pulled from the plug, the live wire is always the first to disconnect, then the neutral, and finally the earth.

Oh yes, forgot about that one. But that only really applies to the non-moulded type.

Most IEC plugs are molded (figure-8, 3pin earthed 13A), but ordinary equipment is usually non molded it seems. Not sure why...
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: RS Components Raspberry Pi order triple-FAIL
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2012, 07:07:51 pm »
In addition, a very clever design feature of UK plugs: If the cord is tugged on, and the wires are pulled from the plug, the live wire is always the first to disconnect, then the neutral, and finally the earth.

Oh yes, forgot about that one. But that only really applies to the non-moulded type.

Most IEC plugs are molded (figure-8, 3pin earthed 13A), but ordinary equipment is usually non molded it seems. Not sure why...

Because most pieces of equipment with fixed flexes have the plug attached after the flex. The same fridge works just fine in France, but they use a different plug!
 

Offline DavidJRobertsonTopic starter

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Re: RS Components Raspberry Pi order triple-FAIL
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2012, 07:17:13 pm »
In addition, a very clever design feature of UK plugs: If the cord is tugged on, and the wires are pulled from the plug, the live wire is always the first to disconnect, then the neutral, and finally the earth.

Oh yes, forgot about that one. But that only really applies to the non-moulded type.

Most IEC plugs are molded (figure-8, 3pin earthed 13A), but ordinary equipment is usually non molded it seems. Not sure why...

Just had a quick look around the house, and I could only spot two non-moulded plugs: One on my desk lamp, the other on an (unused) figure 8 cable.
 

Offline chrome

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Re: RS Components Raspberry Pi order triple-FAIL
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2012, 07:23:48 pm »
All plugs have a earth pin. Although it is sometimes plastic (in the case of "double-insulated" devices), it is always present. Being slightly longer than the live and neutral pins, it is inserted first, moving a spring loaded plastic shutter mechanism which covers the live and neutral holes - so nothing can be inserted in to them accidentally/by a child/whatever. As, in many other countries, not all plugs have an earth pin, it is not possible to do this as non-earthed plugs would be unable to be inserted.

Ours also have that shutter design although not activated by the earth pin but by the other pin (as in you have to insert both pins at the same time) but it's equally effective.

The live and neutral pins also have a plastic covering on the part of them closest to the plug body, so that only the tip of the pins is exposed. The sockets are designed such that the pin will not connect until the plug is inserted past this point. This means that you cannot accidentally touch anything dangerous as the plug is partially inserted, as by the point that the pins actually connect, all of the exposed pins is coated in insulating plastic. With (some) US plugs(as an example), it is trivially easy to touch the pins as they are partially inserted, especially by angling the plug, which is possible because of the design of the sockets combined with the fact that the pins are punched from relatively thin sheet metal.
Our plugs are recessed so you also can't touch any pins. and nowadays they also have that "only the tips are metal" thing going on, but not all.

Our plugs are polarized (unlike, for example, US and European ones). This gives a safety advantage - if the appliance is switched, the switch will always be on the live conductor. This is safer because when the switch is off, there will be no live exposed points in the product - take a toaster as an example: When it is off, one end of the element will be connected to neutral, and the other floating (since the switch is off), so shoving your fingers in there and touching the heater won't result in a shock. If it was connected to live at one end - not so much... Also note that the vast majority of our sockets have integrated switches.
Most of ours are also polarized, but this is still an excuse since they should use double pole switches (seriously think about it what if the electrician fucks up etc etc).

All of our plugs have integrated fuses, unlike some other countries. (although this of course relies on the user to use the correct type of fuse)
Don't you have fuseboxes then? This seems a bit overkill but I won't say this is bad.

The majority of our plugs are moulded on to the cable (I realize this is the case in many other countries too) and cannot be opened and tampered with or plugged in while opened or whatever this week's brand of idiots think it's a good idea to do.
Same here, the only time it isn't is basically when you make the cable yourself.

So in conclusion I would say they are good but equally good as ours


 

Offline Nirios

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Re: RS Components Raspberry Pi order triple-FAIL
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2012, 07:31:09 pm »
moving a spring loaded plastic shutter mechanism which covers the live and neutral holes - so nothing can be inserted in to them accidentally/by a child/whatever. As, in many other countries, not all plugs have an earth pin, it is not possible to do this as non-earthed plugs would be unable to be inserted.

That's how kids learn in the US.  "Don't put things into Mr. Sparky's eyes."  ;D
 

Offline DavidJRobertsonTopic starter

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Re: RS Components Raspberry Pi order triple-FAIL
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2012, 07:33:43 pm »
Our plugs are polarized (unlike, for example, US and European ones). This gives a safety advantage - if the appliance is switched, the switch will always be on the live conductor. This is safer because when the switch is off, there will be no live exposed points in the product - take a toaster as an example: When it is off, one end of the element will be connected to neutral, and the other floating (since the switch is off), so shoving your fingers in there and touching the heater won't result in a shock. If it was connected to live at one end - not so much... Also note that the vast majority of our sockets have integrated switches.
Most of ours are also polarized, but this is still an excuse since they should use double pole switches (seriously think about it what if the electrician fucks up etc etc).
Okay, most of yours are, all of ours are.
I agree with you saying that double pole switches should be used.


All of our plugs have integrated fuses, unlike some other countries. (although this of course relies on the user to use the correct type of fuse)
Don't you have fuseboxes then? This seems a bit overkill but I won't say this is bad.
Some older houses have actual fuse boxes, but the majority of houses have circuit breakers on each circuit as well as one master RCD/GFI.
Plus, I don't think it's overkill at all. It is entirely possible that an appliance could draw an unsafely-high current, while still not tripping the breaker (since this is rated for a very high current as it's for the whole circuit).
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 07:36:38 pm by DavidJRobertson »
 

Offline DavidJRobertsonTopic starter

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Re: RS Components Raspberry Pi order triple-FAIL
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2012, 07:38:31 pm »
So in conclusion I would say they are good but equally good as ours

I will point out that I said "Among the safest in the world" not "The safest in the world"

Plus, this reply further validates my argument:
moving a spring loaded plastic shutter mechanism which covers the live and neutral holes - so nothing can be inserted in to them accidentally/by a child/whatever. As, in many other countries, not all plugs have an earth pin, it is not possible to do this as non-earthed plugs would be unable to be inserted.

That's how kids learn in the US.  "Don't put things into Mr. Sparky's eyes."  ;D
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: RS Components Raspberry Pi order triple-FAIL
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2012, 07:42:22 pm »
All of our plugs have integrated fuses, unlike some other countries. (although this of course relies on the user to use the correct type of fuse)
Don't you have fuseboxes then? This seems a bit overkill but I won't say this is bad.

Look up the ring final circuit and you'll immediately understand why our 13A plugs are fused.
 

Offline IanB

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Re: RS Components Raspberry Pi order triple-FAIL
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2012, 07:48:02 pm »
All of our plugs have integrated fuses, unlike some other countries. (although this of course relies on the user to use the correct type of fuse)
Don't you have fuseboxes then? This seems a bit overkill but I won't say this is bad.

The reason UK plugs must have fuses is because the appliance flex is rated up to 13 A but the circuit behind the wall is typically rated at 30 A. The plug fuse is needed to protect the appliance cord.
 

Offline chrome

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Re: RS Components order FAIL / UK plug discussion
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2012, 07:54:36 pm »
Look up the ring final circuit and you'll immediately understand why our 13A plugs are fused.

I've only come across negatives for that kind of circuit.

Okay, most of yours are, all of ours are.

It usually doesn't matter though, the only ones that aren't polarized are double insulated devices.
 

Offline G7PSK

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Re: RS Components order FAIL / UK plug discussion
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2012, 08:00:34 pm »
Ring mains are 32 amps in the UK. The only draw back to having ring mains that I can see is if the trip goes a whole floor to the house is very often out. The big plus is if you want to run a welder all you need is a piece of six inch nail to put in the plug or better still an old mig tip.
 

Offline DavidJRobertsonTopic starter

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Re: RS Components order FAIL / UK plug discussion
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2012, 08:07:07 pm »
Look up the ring final circuit and you'll immediately understand why our 13A plugs are fused.

I've only come across negatives for that kind of circuit.


Which are?

The main reason for using a ring circuit is that, for a given current carrying capacity, thinner (and therefore cheaper) cables can be used compared to a radial circuit.
 

Offline Bored@Work

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Re: RS Components Raspberry Pi order triple-FAIL
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2012, 08:11:43 pm »
In general, almost all of the classic plugs in northern Europe suffer from historic limitations.

They are too bulky, because historically they were designed when isolation material was not that good and much less mechanically robust. These days one could build much smaller, lighter socket/plug types. Multiple socket outlets are a pain because of the bulkiness.

A bunch of the existing sockets are mechanically too complex. With complexity comes higher failure rates. The British socket being one of these, with the mechanical lock via the earthing pin, or the German with a recessed socket and spring earthing contacts.

The insertion/removal forces widely vary for the same socket type, depending on the manufacturer, age, and the phase of the moon. What non of the classic socket/plug types have is an easy insertion, easy release system, with a lock-in-place (but which would make them more complex). This is important for disabled persons and if you have an ageing population.

Back to the British system.

The requirement for fuses because of the ring wiring is annoying. The fuses are not there to protect people, they are there to protect the kettle lead. Something the normal fuse/breaker does equally good in non ring-wired installations. The fuses in fact give an additional point for tampering (replace it with a nail ...), and it is much easier and more tempting to do so than tampering with the breaker in the panel.

The polarized plug gives a false sense of safety. If a switch in some equipment is off it does not guarantee there is no voltage any more present in the equipment. There is at least voltage up to the switch. And if the switch happened to be wired wrongly, switching the neutral, you still have a life circuit. To be on the safe side you have to treat any equipment as if the plug is not polarized. I.e. don't trust the equipment's switch, unplug the equipment.

The earth shutter don't make the system idiot proof. It just requires a better idiot. Stick something in where the earth pin goes, and you can stick in everything you like in phase and neutral. And plugs without an earth pin can still have a shutter system. Either requiring a higher insertion force, requiring an equal insertion force being present on the neutral and life entry, or requiring additional mechanical action, like having to twist the plug with the two pins a little bit in the socket. All such systems can be circumvented by a better idiot.

Oh, and by the way, Britain, including Scotland, is in Europe, and the British plug is therefore a European plug. No need to bash all European plugs if one European plug, the British one, is so superior.
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Offline chrome

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Re: RS Components order FAIL / UK plug discussion
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2012, 08:13:01 pm »
Which are?

On wire breaks in the system and 1 wire has to carry all that current, which since you use smaller wires it can't handle etc etc
 

Offline DavidJRobertsonTopic starter

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Re: RS Components order FAIL / UK plug discussion
« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2012, 08:29:16 pm »
Which are?

On wire breaks in the system and 1 wire has to carry all that current, which since you use smaller wires it can't handle etc etc

What you're really saying is:
our system - one wire breaks, reduced current carrying capacity
your system - one wire breaks, the whole thing stops working

So basically ours is partially redundant, although could have safety issues should one wire break and a particularly high current is drawn.
 

Offline DavidJRobertsonTopic starter

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Re: RS Components Raspberry Pi order triple-FAIL
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2012, 08:31:52 pm »
Oh, and by the way, Britain, including Scotland, is in Europe ...
I would never have guessed ...
 

Offline chrome

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Re: RS Components order FAIL / UK plug discussion
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2012, 08:34:17 pm »
Which are?

On wire breaks in the system and 1 wire has to carry all that current, which since you use smaller wires it can't handle etc etc

What you're really saying is:
our system - one wire breaks, reduced current carrying capacity
your system - one wire breaks, the whole thing stops working

So basically ours is partially redundant, although could have safety issues should one wire break and a particularly high current is drawn.

I'd rather not have any current then not know there is a problem and possibly burn down the house.
At least with no power I know something is wrong.
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: RS Components order FAIL / UK plug discussion
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2012, 08:35:47 pm »
Which are?

On wire breaks in the system and 1 wire has to carry all that current, which since you use smaller wires it can't handle etc etc

What you're really saying is:
our system - one wire breaks, reduced current carrying capacity
your system - one wire breaks, the whole thing stops working

So basically ours is partially redundant, although could have safety issues should one wire break and a particularly high current is drawn.

I'd rather not have any current then not know there is a problem and possibly burn down the house.
At least with no power I know something is wrong.

Things don't break without people tampering with them.
 


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