Tesla & other EV's and hybrids are dangerous!

[u666sa]

Danger lies in:
A) battery operated, none manual, door locks
B) highly toxic smoke from batteries
C) self-spontaneous-combustion

Video number 1, we have a girl in tesla unable to open door after minor crash, in which secondary battery began smoking. She succumbed to smoke within a minute. Police on scene were unable to open door and free her. There is a manual door release in tesla, you'd have to unbuckle yourself, climb to the rear, remove back seat, and pull a cable. But frankly, within half a minute in highly toxic smoke you'd have hard time breaking glass and climbing out even if glass-breaker was in your hand:



Second video shows hybrid Jeep spontaneously-self-combusting. This vehicle could easily be parked at mechanic's shop, or inside your garage.



Third video shows bunch of Rivian EV's catching fire while charging.



Frankly, these are not isolated incidents, just recently EV caught fire, mechanic died. During working hours. Succumbed to smoke, couldn't get out of open to outside air shop.

[NiHaoMike]

Better stick to horses, never heard of one of those catching fire by itself. Or a (non electric) bicycle, easier to find nowadays.

[tom66]

Oh, not this again.   

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/tusker-fleet-data-reveals-the-truth-about-ev-fires

Turns out that putting 50 litres of fuel in the back of a car, then slowly combusting that along with hot oil and exhaust gases, and doing that all in a tiny package with components that have millimetre precision tens of times per second ... is more dangerous than a battery pack and motor.

I mean, who'd have guessed that? 

But sure, keep panicking about EV fires if it makes you feel superior, even though there's no data to suggest anything to worry about.   

Worth noting that Tesla's decision to not put non-electric door releases on the rear of the car's doors, is nothing to do with EVs, and all to do with Tesla's cost cutting decisions driven by Elon's mentality that the best part is no part.  But note that if the car were unlocked, the outside handles should still work even if the 12V system is dead.  So, the car was probably locked in that video, and presented exactly the same risk any locked car would after a collision where the 12V system was destroyed or damaged due to the accident.  Besides one Mercedes vehicle with gull-wing doors, I'm not aware of any car out there that has pyrotechnics or a similar technology to force doors open in the event of a collision.  Mercedes chose to fit that to their vehicle due to the risk of a rollover collision trapping occupants, but it's certainly not a common feature.

This is why having a hammer to break glass is something I carry as standard in my car, which is capable of cutting seat belts and breaking tempered glass.  I carry it for both myself, and in the event of needing to help someone else.

[u666sa]

This is why having a hammer to break glass is something I carry as standard in my car, which is capable of cutting seat belts and breaking tempered glass.

What part of -- pass out in under a minute -- you don't understand? Carrying that hammer in your hand while driving is pointless, not even going to touch the part where you look for hammer after crash, while everything has been thrown around the car. 

[woody]

What part of

Turns out that putting 50 litres of fuel in the back of a car, then slowly combusting that along with hot oil and exhaust gases, and doing that all in a tiny package with components that have millimetre precision tens of times per second ... is more dangerous than a battery pack and motor.

Don't  you understand?

[langwadt]

This is why having a hammer to break glass is something I carry as standard in my car, which is capable of cutting seat belts and breaking tempered glass.

What part of -- pass out in under a minute -- you don't understand? Carrying that hammer in your hand while driving is pointless, not even going to touch the part where you look for hammer after crash, while everything has been thrown around the car.

https://a.co/d/2g4S713

[tom66]

This is why having a hammer to break glass is something I carry as standard in my car, which is capable of cutting seat belts and breaking tempered glass.

What part of -- pass out in under a minute -- you don't understand? Carrying that hammer in your hand while driving is pointless, not even going to touch the part where you look for hammer after crash, while everything has been thrown around the car.

But you won't pass out in a minute if an EV battery does undergo thermal runaway. Here is an actual test of deliberately initiating thermal runaway on a similar battery to that in the Tesla (NMC chemistry).

https://rechargebatteries.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Rapid-Heating-Test-Methodology-Canada-UN-IWG.pdf

Timeline on slide 26:

00:00 - Heating starts

00:11 - Initial TR occurs

00:12 - RESS enclosure ruptures at seal between top/bottom halves

00:15 - Heating stops

00:18 - Several visual dash warnings to stop were provided, vehicle propulsion was
slowly reduced to stop

00:40 - Gas emissions intensify

12:20 - External fire begins from rupture site

13:20 - Hazardous environment is present within
the cabin (based on multigas meter)

14:00 – External fire suppression applied (water)

Now yes it is possible the collision could knock you out but then any fire is dangerous in that case, hence why modern cars have eCall with backup battery to get first responders to you asap who know exactly what to do.  Any vehicle fire is extremely hazardous in the event of injury to the occupants, but fortunately these events are very rare and often only occur in the event of excessive speed.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Petrol cars are 20x more likely to catch fire, but don't let facts get in the way of a scare story.
https://internationalfireandsafetyjournal.com/research-highlights-lower-fire-risk-in-electric-cars-compared-to-petrol-and-diesel-vehicles/

[Marco]

There is a manual door release in tesla, you'd have to unbuckle yourself, climb to the rear, remove back seat, and pull a cable.

Is this an AI which was told to make stupid fake news about Teslas?

If not, please get your BS detector recalibrated u666sa.

[AVGresponding]

There are manual door release levers in Teslas, but I'd bet most owners don't know where they are, without having to look it up in the owner's manual.

afaik all modern cars have automatic door unlock in the event of an impact above a certain level, though obviously this relies on the power to it being there. This is of course, not the same as the door release; the door release allows the door to be opened, the door lock inhibits the door release. The automatic door unlock is very fast, and any accident high-energy enough to destroy the power source before it can work is likely to be one that no-one survives anyway.
Having a door release be purely electric would annoy the fuck out of me, personally. And please don't try to argue it's either as reliable or cheap as a simple metal rod.

There are fundamental differences in the way EV battery fires, petrol/gasoline fires, and diesel fires, are triggered and propagate. Fire services are experienced with petrol and diesel, less so with EV batteries, and so it's more of a challenge, right now. As they gain experience, it'll even out.

The "what aboutism" levels in this thread are amusing.

[woody]

There are manual door release levers in Teslas, but I'd bet most owners don't know where they are, without having to look it up in the owner's manual.

Funny enough it took me some time to learn to NOT use the manual release levers every time I exited our new M3. The manual levers are exactly where you would expect them to be, but you are supposed to use the button higher up in the doors. And many people exiting our car for the first time made this mistake.

[tszaboo]

Petrol cars are 20x more likely to catch fire, but don't let facts get in the way of a scare story.
https://internationalfireandsafetyjournal.com/research-highlights-lower-fire-risk-in-electric-cars-compared-to-petrol-and-diesel-vehicles/

You are arguing with a tankie, with an agenda, who just recently had a wagner pmc profile picture. Don't let the flag confuse you.

[Marco]

The first crash was a model 3 and she was in the front seat, the video did not show the extent of the damage from the "minor crash" and the story made no mention of the response time.

Given the outrageous lie about the door release, I'm just going to assume the entire front end was collapsed.

[Ice-Tea]

There are manual door release levers in Teslas, but I'd bet most owners don't know where they are, without having to look it up in the owner's manual.

I know where they are (hint: not in the trunk). People I know that own one know. I'm well aware the sample size is too low, so make of that what you will.

[Zucca]

Reading this thread is like listening to Marilyn Manson music in an ancient cathedral.

[bdunham7]

The issue of being trapped in the car due to poor door release designs is not unique to Tesla. However, there's a real issue with people being roasted in their Teslas with available rescuers unable to reach them. Elon's weird fixation on an ultra-minimalist design and aesthetic probably is a huge detriment here and IMO should have been stopped by safety regulations. 

All of this has nothing to do with being an EV or hybrid.  IIRC, there was an issue with certain Cadillacs where an electrical fire in the dash would keep the power door locks energized in the "lock" position and simultaneously cause the windows to not function.  And people have been getting locked in Corvettes and XLR's for some time.

https://www.jalopnik.com/man-gets-stuck-in-cadillac-xlr-for-over-13-hours-after-1829008202/

[tooki]

Methinks we need to regulate car design more, with respect to controls, requiring:
- doors that can open without electricity, using only ONE set of interior handles (not electronic “everyday” handles and mechanical backups).
- physical controls (knobs, buttons, sliders, levers, etc) for key cabin functions like hazard flashers, air conditioning controls, and audio controls (at minimum, for volume, mute, and next/back). Whatever a normal driver is expected to do while driving must not be limited to a touchscreen.

[woody]

Methinks we need to regulate car design more, with respect to controls, requiring:
- doors that can open without electricity, using only ONE set of interior handles (not electronic “everyday” handles and mechanical backups).
- physical controls (knobs, buttons, sliders, levers, etc) for key cabin functions like hazard flashers, air conditioning controls, and audio controls (at minimum, for volume, mute, and next/back). Whatever a normal driver is expected to do while driving must not be limited to a touchscreen.

Absolutely. How it ever became legal to have essential controls like fog lights, windscreen wipers and the like on a touch screen is beyond me. Not to mention the stupidity of moving the satellite on the steering column that since forever controls the turn indicators over to two bloody touch buttons on the steering wheel itself. Try to indicate you way off a roundabout with that. Does prevent me from ever buying a Tesla again.
 

[langwadt]

Methinks we need to regulate car design more, with respect to controls, requiring:
- doors that can open without electricity, using only ONE set of interior handles (not electronic “everyday” handles and mechanical backups).
- physical controls (knobs, buttons, sliders, levers, etc) for key cabin functions like hazard flashers, air conditioning controls, and audio controls (at minimum, for volume, mute, and next/back). Whatever a normal driver is expected to do while driving must not be limited to a touchscreen.

Absolutely. How it ever became legal to have essential controls like fog lights, windscreen wipers and the like on a touch screen is beyond me. Not to mention the stupidity of moving the satellite on the steering column that since forever controls the turn indicators over to two bloody touch buttons on the steering wheel itself. Try to indicate you way off a roundabout with that. Does prevent me from ever buying a Tesla again.

afaiu NCAP is going to start deducting safety points when certain control are not physical buttons

[SiliconWizard]

Methinks we need to regulate car design more, with respect to controls, requiring:
- doors that can open without electricity, using only ONE set of interior handles (not electronic “everyday” handles and mechanical backups).
- physical controls (knobs, buttons, sliders, levers, etc) for key cabin functions like hazard flashers, air conditioning controls, and audio controls (at minimum, for volume, mute, and next/back). Whatever a normal driver is expected to do while driving must not be limited to a touchscreen.

You mean, just like what was standard in automotive before "software guys" took over?

[tom66]

Methinks we need to regulate car design more, with respect to controls, requiring:
- doors that can open without electricity, using only ONE set of interior handles (not electronic “everyday” handles and mechanical backups).
- physical controls (knobs, buttons, sliders, levers, etc) for key cabin functions like hazard flashers, air conditioning controls, and audio controls (at minimum, for volume, mute, and next/back). Whatever a normal driver is expected to do while driving must not be limited to a touchscreen.

You mean, just like what was standard in automotive before "software guys" took over?

Well, I think it was Tesla.

They thought they could do what Tesla did well.  They failed (I have a VW ID.3... the user interface is not great).

But even the Tesla solution isn't great... drove a Model Y 3000 miles, plenty of time to get used to it. Still found myself looking at the screen.  I guess autopilot is kind of necessary...

I would argue that touch haptic controls can work well: the haptic steering wheel controls on my ID.3 are very good, because the haptic motor/piezo makes them feel like real buttons, and there aren't many of them and they're in common locations so you can do everything you need without looking at them.  And they are so much easier to clean because it's one solid surface.  But the other touch controls suck, and the touchscreen is slow and laggy, which makes things worse; fortunately, I just use CarPlay for most things and that works well.

[u666sa]

All of this has nothing to do with being an EV or hybrid.

I hope your reconsider:



Man was working on a hybrid and all of a sudden it went up in flames. If it was fuel you'd run away. But it was batteries. He got badly burned, his business got destroyed.

Result is a massive medical bill, years of recovery, business that most likely will not bring money again. This is U.S.. No income, no way to pay for your house. You know what happens next.

00:00 - Heating starts
00:11 - Initial TR occurs
00:12 - RESS enclosure ruptures at seal between top/bottom halves
00:15 - Heating stops
00:18 - Several visual dash warnings to stop were provided, vehicle propulsion was
slowly reduced to stop
00:40 - Gas emissions intensify
12:20 - External fire begins from rupture site
13:20 - Hazardous environment is present within
the cabin (based on multigas meter)
14:00 – External fire suppression applied (water)

GD sound like you can have a coffee before you attempt to rescue yourself out, and firefighters can get there without lights and siren!

[Marco]

If it was fuel you'd run away.

Ah yes, that has a 100% success rate. They do run the engines too inside garages, as well as welding and grinding and occasionally smoke cigarettes. Fuel is not inert.

Which part of the hybrid was causing the flames BTW?

[Psi]

It's important to separate dodgy battery manufacturers who cheap-out to save money and produce cells that are at high risk of catching on fire, verses battery manufacturers who make quality cells that don't catch on fire.

So it makes no sense to point to dodgy batteries that catch on fire and say
"Ban all batteries, or Ban all EVs".

[Psi]

evfiresafe had a look into EV fire stats in NZ based on actual data and created some slides.  You can view them here https://www.evfiresafe.com/evfs-nz

Danger lies in:
A) battery operated, none manual, door locks

There does need to be some standardization on how all cars implement their manual (no power) door release controls. Yes.
This isn't just for EVs but all cars that have an electric door opening system that will fail if the power is lost.

B) highly toxic smoke from batteries

Yes, but that's only an issue if the odds of EV fires and toxic smoke inhalation happens often enough to be an issue. Freak accidents will always happen and you can't stop that. If it's happening too often then it gets addressed through regulation, or through the manufacturers making their cars safer than their competition. If it's only freak accidents then it usually doesnt get addressed and people accept it.

The aircon/heatpump refrigerant R32 is used in lots of houses and it produces hydrogen fluoride when it burns which is highly toxic. People getting injured by it during house fires happens but it's rare enough that it's not considered an issue that needs fixing. It's really only something firefighters need to be aware of when entering a burning house.

C) self-spontaneous-combustion

Lithium batteries don't catch fire for no reason. They catch fire due to being overheated, overcharged, bad cell design/chemistry or bad assembly or physical damage.
If an EV catches on fire then either the car manufacturer is at fault, or the battery cell manufacturer is at fault. It says nothing about other EV makers or the EV industry in general.