This is why we should all leave the EU

[Kjelt]

We have our own issues with attacks on personal liberty. I mentioned earlier the example of the soda cup size limit.

I have been to NY where a friend of mine ordered the maximum cup size which was about 1,5 litres or something like that? About twice the max we have here.
And then you can get refills for free as much as you want?
This would never work in my country, as soon as the refill is free everyone would order the smallest cheapest cup size   
What they actually should do is tax all unhealthy foods and beverages and make all healthy fruits and vegetables as cheap as possible.

Your country has started with taking away individuals freedom when they had health consequences for others , like the USA was the great inspirator of abandoning sigarette smoking in restaurants and public places. I had much respect for those laws and it took a long time before our governments also had the balls to make those laws.
But looking at them from your point of view you probably have large problems with those laws taking away the liberty of a few to save the health of others or don't you in those cases?
So where is the boundary of when a government has good laws and when are they bad?
Is it as long as someone elses health is not at risk you find that nobody should be protected from the corporations that slowly poison you with their ingredients? 

[zapta]

But looking at them from your point of view you probably have large problems with those laws taking away the liberty of a few to save the health of others or don't you in those cases?

Yes, those anti smoking laws went too far. If a bar allows smoking, nobody forces me to enter (I am not smoking BTW).

The utopians want to mold other people life for there taste and the restrictions on our freedom pile up.  Don't let the EU bureaucrats to micro manage your life.

[miguelvp]

But looking at them from your point of view you probably have large problems with those laws taking away the liberty of a few to save the health of others or don't you in those cases?

Yes, those anti smoking laws went too far. If a bar allows smoking, nobody forces me to enter (I am not smoking BTW).

The utopians want to mold other people life for there taste and the restrictions on our freedom pile up.  Don't let the EU bureaucrats to micro manage your life.

I believe somewhere in California you can't even smoke in your own house. And of course no barbeque allowed either.

Oh the power of insurance companies, seems like everything that is regulated helps them keep a bigger margin since the government keeps us safe anyways but insurance is always required.

[SirNick]

There really is no freedom too inconsequential for it to be an attack on liberty, huh?

I have friends and family members with asthma (or other respiratory issues) that really appreciate the ban on smoking.  Before that, your freedoms barred them from entering several public establishments.  Good thing they got their freedom back.

Thanks to this thread, I'm developing a gag reflex to that particular F-word.  Must be the urge to oppress taking over.  Maybe I should suggest an HOA in my neighborhood so I can make sure all the houses are the same color.  yyeeesssss.....

[zapta]

I have friends and family members with asthma (or other respiratory issues) that really appreciate the ban on smoking.  Before that, your freedoms barred them from entering several public establishments.  Good thing they got their freedom back.

Hmm, my example was about privately owned establishments, like bars.

[miguelvp]

I have friends and family members with asthma (or other respiratory issues) that really appreciate the ban on smoking.  Before that, your freedoms barred them from entering several public establishments.  Good thing they got their freedom back.

Hmm, my example was about privately owned establishments, like bars.

Plus there have been always restaurants that didn't allow smoking before the ban, it's a business decision first and foremost, too bad it has to be dictated.

[TerraHertz]

It's not just the EU, or even the 'ban it' mentality that is the fundamental problem. At root it's the attitude that it's OK to use the law to force others to behave/buy/act the way you personally think they should. As has been pointed out, it's about pushing towards more or less individual freedom.

Funnily enough, when it is centralized bureaucracy or corporate 'persons' doing the pushing, it's always towards less freedom for real human individuals.

Here's a classic example (this time from the Guardian):
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/aug/29/us-telecoms-fcc-block-high-speed-internet-chattanooga
US telecoms giants call on FCC to block cities' expansion of high-speed internet

Some small towns in the USA got fed up with the shitty Internet service deals from the major cable companies. So implemented their own screaming fast networks, cheaply. The cable companies are now having conniptions, and trying to use the legal system to put a stop to such horrible violation of the cable companies' freedom to wield their monopoly and extort lots of money in return for poor service.

Back to the EU, and specifically to the EU central government. A very funny article about them, from a pro-Ukrainian-separatist commentary site:
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.it/2014/08/the-eus-ugly-kindergarten-of.html

Russian saying: "to try to scare a hedgehog with a naked butt".
 

[owiecc]

Funnily enough, when it is centralized bureaucracy or corporate 'persons' doing the pushing, it's always towards less freedom for real human individuals.

Not really. Thanks to EU we have Shengen where we are free to travel around without borders. We have a common warranty policy inside EU while if you buy something in US and come back to EU your warranty will be most likely refused. I have a right to vote in Danmark even though I am a Polish citizen. None of these was true before EU.

[Kjelt]

Yes, those anti smoking laws went too far. If a bar allows smoking, nobody forces me to enter (I am not smoking BTW).

Same discussion here in the Netherlands, here the point of view is from the bar-employee that should be protected from inhaling smoke each day.
I know each employee has the right to quit, but the laws are that each employee working for each company should have a healty working environment, otherwise we still would have astbestos workers without masks or coal miners etc.

I believe somewhere in California you can't even smoke in your own house. And of course no barbeque allowed either.

Is that for the fire hazzard in that state, seen a lot of fires there lately.

Anyway this means that this particular law in the US is going much further then the same laws in the EU, so who was it saying that the USA had much more freedom and less laws again? 

[dannyf]

each employee working for each company should have a healty working environment,

It is not unthinkable if health concerns would have driven the employees away so that those bars that allow smoke would be out of business or the remaining employees there are paid more and the patrons there also pay more - a pareto efficient solution.

so who was it saying that the USA had much more freedom and less laws again?

The US is fast becoming a worse version of Europe.

[Rufus]

Thanks to EU we have Shengen where we are free to travel around without borders.

I have a right to vote in Danmark even though I am a Polish citizen.

You are one of the millions of poles that left Poland for an EU country with higher pay and living standards? No wonder you love the EU.  The people of Denmark and those other countries thank the EU not so much.

[tom66]

Some small towns in the USA got fed up with the shitty Internet service deals from the major cable companies. So implemented their own screaming fast networks, cheaply. The cable companies are now having conniptions, and trying to use the legal system to put a stop to such horrible violation of the cable companies' freedom to wield their monopoly and extort lots of money in return for poor service.

That's just corporatism. The US is particularly fond of that. The EU would end up suing monopolistic internet providers. Remember when they sued Microsoft?

Freedom is a good thing, but some companies have too much freedom to form monopolies and act in an anti-customer fashion. That needs to stop.

[owiecc]

You are one of the millions of poles that left Poland for an EU country with higher pay and living standards? No wonder you love the EU.  The people of Denmark and those other countries thank the EU not so much.

This is a very racist comment. Just o remind you: europeans moved to US to have higher pay and living standards. People move from villages to cities because of higher pay and living standards. What do you have to say to them?

I moved to Denmark to do a PhD. Now I work at the university researching cutting-edge technologies.

[gildasd]

Owiec, as a francoenglishspanishbelgian, I am very happy to have you here.
Don't listen to that awful person, he knows not what he speaks of.

(By the way, I keep hearing these unproductive Frenchmen moaning about Poles stealing their jobs. But I also hear that to have villages in the middle of nowhere that are losing inhabitants, maybe your gouverment would accept a donation of a couple of million "quality" frenchpeople to alliviate your problems?)

[owiecc]

If only they could do plumbing, welding or masonry we'll take them. In the recent time, I hear, it is getting more and more difficult to find people to do these tasks. They left to England: .

[gildasd]

When I was in the building industry, i used to hire Polish plumbers, electricians and plasterers.
Not because they were cheaper, but due to them being available. In Western Europe we train nowhere near the technical personnel we need,  but way too many managers and marketeers we all ready have a glut of.
You really have to absolutely ignorant of European economics to say anything else that Poland is saving our collective butt.
In fact, Europe is lucky that Poland does not charge us for the service.

[Kjelt]

I don't agree at all. Esp. with lower education jobs there are a lot of people unemployed because people from other countries did their jobs for less wages and more important for the businesses that hired them more hours in a day. We have job laws and regulations and a lot of businesses are getting away with them.
If there is a shortage of personell in any business the solution is to educate more people or higher the wages so people start taking those educations. The problem that we have a lot of managers as you call it is that management pays the best (and arguably for the least energy you have to put in the study and work), so it is a "sexy" job for graduates. That is the problem, we reward stupidness instead of technical excellence.

Anyway I have a hard time seeing that we have 600000 unemployed persons in our country and that there are a lot of immigrants from bulgary etc. coming in to do jobs for less pay and less union rules. That is not how it is supposed to be.
And even the countries where the people are coming from suffer, in Poland there are whole towns where children are growing up without fathers, try explain it to them, and why?
It was better if the EU subsidied projects in those countries so there is enough work and stimulate progress there instead of moving people around.
Just my opinion.

[Kjelt]

Oh and the same argument for the millions of africans coming to the EU through Italy,Spain etc.
If there is a war in their country so be it, it is our duty to take them in.
But for the majority it is a economic choice and for those I would say close the borders and go home, you are not going to be happy here not speaking the language, knowing the customs, the bad weather and esp. you are never going to have that dream job since you will be exploited by scrupulous persons.
What are we going to do with millions of unemployed africans while we have no more shelters/homes to put them in, same problem except that these persons can not fit your plumbing *pun intended*

[gildasd]

I don't agree at all. Esp. with lower education jobs there are a lot of people unemployed because people from other countries did their jobs for less wages and more important for the businesses that hired them more hours in a day. We have job laws and regulations and a lot of businesses are getting away with them.
If there is a shortage of personell in any business the solution is to educate more people or higher the wages so people start taking those educations. The problem that we have a lot of managers as you call it is that management pays the best (and arguably for the least energy you have to put in the study and work), so it is a "sexy" job for graduates. That is the problem, we reward stupidness instead of technical excellence.

Anyway I have a hard time seeing that we have 600000 unemployed persons in our country and that there are a lot of immigrants from bulgary etc. coming in to do jobs for less pay and less union rules. That is not how it is supposed to be.
And even the countries where the people are coming from suffer, in Poland there are whole towns where children are growing up without fathers, try explain it to them, and why?
It was better if the EU subsidied projects in those countries so there is enough work and stimulate progress there instead of moving people around.
Just my opinion.

I was doing factory work all summer for 12,50 to 13,80 euros net per hour.
That's a lot for packaging stuff. But companies can't find Flemish workers. So they have two options: delocalise or hire Poles.

[miguelvp]

When I was in the building industry, i used to hire Polish plumbers, electricians and plasterers.
Not because they were cheaper, but due to them being available. In Western Europe we train nowhere near the technical personnel we need,  but way too many managers and marketeers we all ready have a glut of.
You really have to absolutely ignorant of European economics to say anything else that Poland is saving our collective butt.
In fact, Europe is lucky that Poland does not charge us for the service.

A lot of them come here to the US, specially Chicago, they dominate the construction workforce by a lot, very hard workers and awesome quality of work.

[Kjelt]

I was doing factory work all summer for 12,50 to 13,80 euros net per hour.
That's a lot for packaging stuff. But companies can't find Flemish workers. So they have two options: delocalise or hire Poles.

I also worked between my studies in all kinds of jobs.
My opinion: if a company can not find personell to do their jobs for the local rate they should go somewhere else.
It is the law of business that if you can not produce with a profit you go out of business, not to exploit people to stay in business.

Example: aspergus farmers that want personell for €5 per hour can not find people in our country except foreigners. What should happen? The farmer should immigrate to a country where there are enough people wanting to do that job and setup its farm over there OR reinvent the aspergus process by using robots? Or grow them higher like what happened with the fruit farmers, they re-invented how a fruit tree looks (short) and so people don't have to climb ladders to pick the fruit, they can find enough people to do that job.

So innovate or move to another spot or stop doing your business.
We have seen in the beginning of the 1970's what happens if you import a lot of "low educated" foreigners to do your jobs. It is still a small disaster where 2nd generation of those people are going stronger and better but only the 3rd generation is really integrated in the society, so it takes 60 years for foreigners and their families to integrate in their society, which is OK if you keep the inflow small and controllable.

[Kjelt]

A lot of them come here to the US, specially Chicago, they dominate the construction workforce by a lot, very hard workers and awesome quality of work.

They are excellent but where are the americans to do those jobs or do you have no unemployment in your country 

[miguelvp]

Oh and the same argument for the millions of africans coming to the EU through Italy,Spain etc.
If there is a war in their country so be it, it is our duty to take them in.
But for the majority it is a economic choice and for those I would say close the borders and go home, you are not going to be happy here not speaking the language, knowing the customs, the bad weather and esp. you are never going to have that dream job since you will be exploited by scrupulous persons.
What are we going to do with millions of unemployed africans while we have no more shelters/homes to put them in, same problem except that these persons can not fit your plumbing *pun intended*

Well, since Europe is getting old (meaning less than 2 children per couple average) you really need immigrants. Educate and train them and they will support your retirement since the burden is getting way higher for the young to support their elders.

[miguelvp]

A lot of them come here to the US, specially Chicago, they dominate the construction workforce by a lot, very hard workers and awesome quality of work.

They are excellent but where are the americans to do those jobs or do you have no unemployment in your country 

The thing is, they are Americans

[Kjelt]

You give them american visa to do work or do you give them american citizenship?
The nice thing about america is that they have closed borders and can control who comes in.
And in the american case (I am not fully on par on the current situation so I could be wrong here) you only let people in that can contribute to your society in jobs there are no local people for to be found. I think it would be totally different (and also the political climate) if your borders would be open and 1000 boats with 50 african economic uneducated people would arrive in NY city each and every month and would go to the unemployment office demanding a benefit, which is what Spain/Italy have to endure at the moment and where there is a real ethical dilemma.

BTW if I am not mistaken the US has the same problem but then with illigal mexicans doing private jobs. I believe the law is also not very constructive for those people.