Author Topic: Unnecessary Complexity  (Read 23470 times)

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Offline Buriedcode

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Re: Unnecessary Complexity
« Reply #75 on: February 21, 2019, 07:43:39 pm »
Apologies if this isn't quite what the OP was referring to.

I'm unsure if the OP was referring to how we - the forum members - design stuff, or commenting on existing products?  It also depends on where you're looking, I regularly browse hackaday, which is often full of projects that use raspberry pi's to do something a 555 can do - but then add a webserver because, well, they can.  But those are one-off personal pet projects and it seems this thread is about consumer products.

I too have noticed an increase in complexity but... only in the higher-end (= more expensive) products.  I suspect this is mostly marketing influencing engineering decisions rather than any utilitarian approach where costs are to be kept at a minimum to achieve the job and nothing more.  Products are rarely designed for a specific purpose, but often for a price point.  To justify the higher cost, there has to be more (or "better") functionality, and this is where features are bolted on just so they can be printed on the box, or mentioned ad-nauseam in the ads.  Dyson I'm looking at you - they can charge so much for their products they can afford to grossly over engineer the electronics and that means they can make laughable claims in their ads which... plays towards their customer base who "loves gadgets".

So these days we have a much broader range of products, with a broader price range.  The absolute top-end being somewhat laughable - like Juicero - that do have a market, albeit a small one.  The low-end being what many members here complain about "chinese crap" where it is unclear just how they manage to achieve the functionality with such low cost parts/manufacturing.  These are the extreme's with the middle ground being the most common, and products must navigate this - often adding/removing features purely to set the price point, because its the price that determines what people buy, not the functionality - because there are so many products that "do the job".

For personal projects, or even small runs, the "over kill" thing, does bug me, but I think I go too far the other way - often I will try and make something as efficient as possible, using logic gates for simple timers, and moving up in complexity if I need it, sometimes trying to squeeze out functionality from an 8-bit micro when a cortex m0 could do it without breaking a sweat. This generally means I spend way longer designing something that I should, honestly, throwing an Arduino at something that needs a pulse train isn't such a bad thing. 

But that might be cause I'm an electronics guy. I started with electronics, so I started simple and throughout my career learned more complex systems.  Others may have started being software guys - where a PC's resources aren't really that much of a restriction so one doesn't have to worry about a kilobyte array, or computational speed.  These folks started off unrestricted, with huge hardware resources at their disposal, so perhaps it is further in the back of their mind when designing electronics.  I'm not suggesting they poorly implement things, just that, they might start off using a very complicated system, and stripping it down/streamlining it to reduce costs, where-as hardware guys might start the other way, with simple systems, and adding on or upgrading as-and-when it is required.   

If there isn't sufficient pressure to reduce complexity, like power consumption for longer battery life, reduction in size for wearables/portability, some personal projects, and even products, might remain more or less on the hardware they were prototyped on.  That could be a beaglebone, raspberry pi, SBC, some poor 32-bit micro running python.  And if one uses hardware that is hardly taxed at all, well.... we have plenty of room for extra features.  Again, this can be a good thing, and sometimes means one finds a feature incredibly useful that was only added for shits'n'giggles.  But sometimes it gets in the way of the original intended purpose.

Lastly, there is the very simple idea that more features/more complex = "better".  Adding more bells and whistles to a product invariably makes it look more expensive, which again drives us consumers more than we would like to admit.  Few people are truely utilitarian, as much as we would like to thing as much, although engineers more than most!

Examples?  Hmm I think many internet-of-things have been mentioned.  I'll forgo ranting about marketing wank (I do it too often in this forum).
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Unnecessary Complexity
« Reply #76 on: February 21, 2019, 08:01:10 pm »
To be fair with windows 10 they are sort of going in reverse again now. It's just a window manager for yout applications really. No one gives a shit about the crap they attached to it even if they blog about it ten times a day. It doesn't even get in the way any more.

The interface functions they removed are still removed and Microsoft doubled down by giving stupid reasons.

We cannot have a free disk space display because users were suffering from free space anxiety?  Really?

Computers and networks and storage systems gets faster yet APIs are removed to prevent excessive disk thrashing with SSDs and network traffic?  What?

I don't believe it.  I think Microsoft deliberately crippled Windows 7 through 10 to drive users to an alternative Microsoft OS and hardware environment over which they could extract greater rents.  I also think it will fail miserably and ultimately result in the dissolution of Microsoft and likely Intel who should dump them.

Free disk space display? Same as vista.



Which APIs have been removed? I know of none. Deprecated yes but removed, no. I'm running stuff compiled for 32-bit NT4 on my windows 10 build. I've got a client running VB6 COM and ASP stuff on Windows Server 2016...

Microsoft don't want windows any more. That's what you're seeing. Windows is mindshare only so the surface area is decreasing. The money is in Azure, Office 365, enterprise stuff.

Sure, that's the sales pitch. Then you see real life scenarios where before the move to the cloud two administrators were required and after the move three turn out to be needed to keeps things afloat. Or things continuously breaking in more customized environments due to Microsoft running continuous updates, forcing companies either into more standard environments not always ideal for their purposes or into a more intensive and costly development cycle to continually unbreak things. That's TCO not always taken into account up front. Cloud infrastructure is a wonderful tool to have in the toolbox, but as soon as you start throwing other tools out things start going wrong.

These things continually happen in any IT deployment. Less so in the cloud. Believe me I have spent the last decade unfucking exactly those problems. I watched a whole site go down because someone super clever pushed new desktop images out to 200 workstations with the wrong graphics card driver.

The real problem is idiots and cretins and there are a hell of a lot of them in the IT industry. The cloud providers normalise them away to nothing.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Unnecessary Complexity
« Reply #77 on: February 21, 2019, 09:30:47 pm »
IMHO Windows 7 is the pinnacle of Microsoft OS development. In later versions each step forward comes with even more steps back. They stripped the UI down to a wireframe and then came up with stupid reasons to spin it. It is so much less flexible, less configurable and just downright ugly. It has taken on the feel of 20 year old open source stuff, that same sort of half baked half assed crustiness. Linux looks much nicer now, less due to Linux improving as due to windows regressing.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Unnecessary Complexity
« Reply #78 on: February 21, 2019, 09:47:48 pm »
Gnome 3 is ironically half assed crustiness personified. Someone tried to copy Apple but they had a head injury while on the bong at the same time and just lost it half way through.

It’s all shit basically.
 

Offline jmelson

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Re: Unnecessary Complexity
« Reply #79 on: February 21, 2019, 10:03:04 pm »
Gnome 3 is ironically half assed crustiness personified. Someone tried to copy Apple but they had a head injury while on the bong at the same time and just lost it half way through.

It’s all shit basically.
You should still be able to revert to Gnome Classic, which isn't too bad.  You then have to manually edit the XML to make the borders more than one pixel wide so they are grabbable, but I know how to do that.

Jon
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Unnecessary Complexity
« Reply #80 on: February 21, 2019, 10:06:26 pm »
Yeah gnome 2 was ok. That was the peak there.  I use windows 10 now and PuTTY though.
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Unnecessary Complexity
« Reply #81 on: February 21, 2019, 10:33:46 pm »
Yeah gnome 2 was ok. That was the peak there.  I use windows 10 now and PuTTY though.

The last two times I tried to put a Windows on a machine, Microsoft wouldn't let me.

So it is linux, with a decently small fast simple usable old-fashioned GUI: Xfce. Like the WinXP era GUIs :)
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Offline bd139

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Re: Unnecessary Complexity
« Reply #82 on: February 21, 2019, 11:00:17 pm »
I found xfce too buggy. One of the problems was the WM borders weren't large enough on the one theme which didn't grate on me. They required ridiculous pixel level precision. This is a massive problem when you're running a high HiDPI panel and mostly a nipple mouse on a thinkpad. No matter what futzing I did with GTK settings or xfce settings would it behave sensibly. Windows - ugh it's too small, scale up to 125%. Done! Edit: also the window manager in windows 10 is pretty good. Does virtual desktops and everything: https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2014/10/03/keyboard-shortcuts-in-the-windows-10-technical-preview/

I've never had windows not take to a PC. Apart from one old Compaq pro 5000 that refused to boot NT 3.51 and that turned out to be because I was using the wrong NT HAL and SCSI drivers.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 11:04:54 pm by bd139 »
 

Offline IDEngineer

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Re: Unnecessary Complexity
« Reply #83 on: February 21, 2019, 11:29:30 pm »
IMHO Windows 7 is the pinnacle of Microsoft OS development.
1000% agree with this statement on multiple levels. Win7 is the latest version of Windows that I run on any machine that I personally use. To the point that when I needed to replace my laptop last year, I took the time to research the most optimized business laptop that has native Win7 drivers available from the vendor's website. I simply would not settle for a Win10 or (OMFG) Win8 environment, period.

In case anyone cares, I ended up with a brand new Lenovo X260. Nice fast i7 quad-core CPU, 16GB RAM, huge M.2 SSD, native Win7 Professional, all the actual dongle-free ports that Engineers need (GB Ethernet, multiple charging USB3, HDMI, audio in/out, etc.), about three pounds, HD screen as bright as the sun for outdoor use. The two best features (besides Win7) are its docking station and - wait for it - DUAL batteries. One internal, one external. With the native battery I get 16+ hours of normal use; with the hi-cap battery I also bought, I get 24+ hours. Not a typo. I've actually gone on multi-day business trips where I've used it on the flights there and back, and all day in business meetings, and never charged it. The internal battery means you can swap batteries while the machine is running even without AC power. Genius! My son makes fun of its square, clunky appearance but I'm getting real work done, not trying to win an award for "personal style".

By the way, while researching laptops I found there is a RAGING market for pre-Win8 machines. Win7 machines actually command a premium, and there are vendors out there who specialize in them and round up as much new-in-box stock as they can, knowing there is demand for them. So I am definitely not alone.

The day will come when I have to abandon Win7, and I'm hoping that by then Microsoft will have repented of its sins and offer a reasonable desktop OS again. Yeah, I know.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 11:33:29 pm by IDEngineer »
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Unnecessary Complexity
« Reply #84 on: February 21, 2019, 11:39:20 pm »
Got dual batteries in my T440. Totally agree with that. I get 12 hours solid which means I don't have to carry a charger but this thing is a clunker compared to that X260.

This is highly recommended for people stuck on windows 7 (which is incidentally a turkey now as MSFT can't and won't patch all the holes in it): https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0091816971/
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Unnecessary Complexity
« Reply #85 on: February 22, 2019, 12:05:33 am »
My Lenovo x250 has dual batteries too, it's a nice feature, almost 12 hours of real world use if I need it.

I would argue that Win8 awful as it is out of the box, is arguably superior to Win10. You can add third party tools to get a proper start menu and unlike 10 it doesn't have forced updates that constantly revert things I have customized, uninstall programs without asking, set defaults back to the garbage bundled "apps" or trying SO pathetically hard to push me toward using other Microsoft services. I occasionally have to deal with Win10 and it feels so incredibly user-hostile that I don't know how some people manage to deal with it. Every time I go to use a computer with it I have to wait a while for a bunch of updates I didn't ask for to install. The interface is so hideous with acres of useless white space and gigantic childish widgets and so much bland harsh whiteness while offering less ability than ever to customize this. Bugs everywhere and instead of fixing those they continue to add features nobody asked for while pretending to listen and steadfastly refusing to add features people are asking for.

My work pc is a Mac now. I was never a Mac guy but they asked me if I wanted a Win10 laptop or a MacBook and I thought the mac couldn't possibly be worse. It has its own set of flaws but overall I have been very happy. The UI is easy on the eyes and my uptime is currently 161 days without having to reboot for a stupid update, it's a wonderful thing having an operating system that just does what it's supposed to do, lets me run the software I need and stays out of my way.
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Unnecessary Complexity
« Reply #86 on: February 22, 2019, 12:21:07 am »
I found xfce too buggy. One of the problems was the WM borders weren't large enough on the one theme which didn't grate on me. They required ridiculous pixel level precision. This is a massive problem when you're running a high HiDPI panel and mostly a nipple mouse on a thinkpad. No matter what futzing I did with GTK settings or xfce settings would it behave sensibly. Windows - ugh it's too small, scale up to 125%. Done! Edit: also the window manager in windows 10 is pretty good. Does virtual desktops and everything: https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2014/10/03/keyboard-shortcuts-in-the-windows-10-technical-preview/

I've never had windows not take to a PC. Apart from one old Compaq pro 5000 that refused to boot NT 3.51 and that turned out to be because I was using the wrong NT HAL and SCSI drivers.

Without a mouse, all GUis are subpoptimal. Xfce is no worse than others in that respect.

MS (how apt) refused to allow me to reinstall WinXP on a laptop after a disk crash. I replaced the disc, used a CD-ROM and the magic number on the base of the laptop. It installed OK then on first reboot I was dumped into a DOS level screen stating that MS wasn't going to allow the boot to continue. MS said it was Samsung's responsibility, Samsung said it was an MS problem. Only solution would be to buy another disk with WinXP already installed.

So i tried to buyWin7 but MS wouldn't let me do that either. No, I wasn't going to buy Win8!
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Unnecessary Complexity
« Reply #87 on: February 22, 2019, 12:32:47 am »
Got dual batteries in my T440. Totally agree with that. I get 12 hours solid which means I don't have to carry a charger but this thing is a clunker compared to that X260.

This is highly recommended for people stuck on windows 7 (which is incidentally a turkey now as MSFT can't and won't patch all the holes in it): https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0091816971/
You don't need dual batteries, you need big ones! "I like big batts and I cannot lie.."
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Unnecessary Complexity
« Reply #88 on: February 22, 2019, 12:42:25 am »
Dual batteries has one very significant advantage, even if the second battery is a small built in one. You can hot swap the other battery without shutting down, not a feature that everyone needs but if you do need to do a lot of work away from power it's really nice to have.
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Unnecessary Complexity
« Reply #89 on: February 22, 2019, 12:57:00 am »
Dual batteries has one very significant advantage, even if the second battery is a small built in one. You can hot swap the other battery without shutting down, not a feature that everyone needs but if you do need to do a lot of work away from power it's really nice to have.
You can hook the laptop up to power for that. There are situations imaginable where that's not possible, but those seem to be increasingly rare.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Unnecessary Complexity
« Reply #90 on: February 22, 2019, 01:35:22 am »
Quite a few people work on airplanes, that was the reason I wanted dual batteries, my previous laptops wouldn't last through a full flight. Only very recently have seatback power sockets started to become common and they are still far from universal. I've been in plenty of other situations where plugging into power was not convenient or not an option. It's not a feature everyone needs but it's one I find very convenient to have.
 

Online Berni

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Re: Unnecessary Complexity
« Reply #91 on: February 22, 2019, 06:24:20 am »
I sadly have to deal with Windows 10 on my work machine.

They ran out of Win7 licenses but they got some Win 8 licenses with some new PCs. Back then i had used some friends laptops with Win8 and i hated it so i used the free Win10 upgrade offer. Surely Microsoft has learned something by now from there Win8 flop. I'm now counting 3 years of use on this Win 10 installation and have learned to cope with it but id still rather have Win 7 like all my personal machines.

I guess you do get used to the ugly UI. I had to do a bunch of registry hacks and command line messing about in order to nuke a lot of the annoying features. Updates i have force disabled trough various methods because they are horrible. Not only do updates every so often break something, introduce bugs or reset your settings but they also force restart your machine randomly. If it sees the machine is idle or sitting in sleep overnight it will go and do the update and reboot. If any program refuses to close gracefully it just terminates it and continues on. At one point this caused me a major loss of 1 days worth of work because i forgot to save and it updated overnight. Then i hear news that some updates have deleted entire Document folders for some users, or locked them out of there own machines, started bluecsreening on boot etc.

And on top of that the search functionality that works so well in Win7 is still broken in Win10 after 3 years. Sometimes it simply says no results, but then i go look for thing i typed in and its right there in the start menu. Any * ? characters are simply discarded rather than to do what they should in search.

In my 3 years of using Win 10 i have found just 2 features i like. Ability to have start menu on multiple monitors and that there is a built in app for opening 3D models and editing them. That's it, all else was a step backwards.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Unnecessary Complexity
« Reply #92 on: February 22, 2019, 08:27:23 am »
Dual batteries has one very significant advantage, even if the second battery is a small built in one. You can hot swap the other battery without shutting down, not a feature that everyone needs but if you do need to do a lot of work away from power it's really nice to have.

Exactly that. I take two 76Wh batteries out with me. That means I can hammer the shit out of the CPU all day if I need to. I do a lot of work on client sites and it’s a PITA finding a socket sometimes.
 

Online David Hess

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Re: Unnecessary Complexity
« Reply #93 on: February 22, 2019, 02:31:53 pm »
Free disk space display? Same as vista.


Yes, you have to use extra effort to find the free space where before it was continuous displayed in the status line hence the unnecessary complexity.  Why allow the user to immediately see what they need with no effort when multiple interactions can be required?

https://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/c98ecee9-9d9a-463d-928d-30804c1f2d40/drive-quotfree-spacequot-is-missing-in-windows-explorer-why?forum=w7itproui

Quote
Which APIs have been removed? I know of none. Deprecated yes but removed, no. I'm running stuff compiled for 32-bit NT4 on my windows 10 build. I've got a client running VB6 COM and ASP stuff on Windows Server 2016...

The IColumnProvider shell extension API was removed.  At one point I found a comment from Microsoft which stated that they removed it to prevent network congestion (!) but I suspect it was removed to cripple third party utilities which were providing functionality that Microsoft wanted to extract rents on by forcing users to other systems.
 

Offline jackthomson41

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Re: Unnecessary Complexity
« Reply #94 on: February 22, 2019, 03:34:19 pm »
Nothing's better than Putty when it comes to Windows or Embedded Systems  :-+
« Last Edit: March 04, 2021, 01:48:08 am by jackthomson41 »
 

Offline IDEngineer

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Re: Unnecessary Complexity
« Reply #95 on: February 22, 2019, 05:28:05 pm »
Quite a few people work on airplanes, that was the reason I wanted dual batteries, my previous laptops wouldn't last through a full flight.
Indeed - I design a lot of sensors for the marine industry. AC outlets are exceedingly rare on most watercraft too. And in a more general sense, anyone who works "in the field", even if it's only for testing or data capture, has an interest in both longevity and the ability to swap batteries. Again, not critical for everyone but very helpful in many situations. Lenovo seems to recognize that market and builds products for it.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Unnecessary Complexity
« Reply #96 on: February 22, 2019, 06:30:27 pm »
Free disk space display? Same as vista.


Yes, you have to use extra effort to find the free space where before it was continuous displayed in the status line hence the unnecessary complexity.  Why allow the user to immediately see what they need with no effort when multiple interactions can be required?

https://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/c98ecee9-9d9a-463d-928d-30804c1f2d40/drive-quotfree-spacequot-is-missing-in-windows-explorer-why?forum=w7itproui

Quote
Which APIs have been removed? I know of none. Deprecated yes but removed, no. I'm running stuff compiled for 32-bit NT4 on my windows 10 build. I've got a client running VB6 COM and ASP stuff on Windows Server 2016...

The IColumnProvider shell extension API was removed.  At one point I found a comment from Microsoft which stated that they removed it to prevent network congestion (!) but I suspect it was removed to cripple third party utilities which were providing functionality that Microsoft wanted to extract rents on by forcing users to other systems.

Ah yes. IColumnProvider. That was likely removed for exactly the reason they said it was. A lot of terrible third party utilities were doing a call on the disk for each row including horrid stuff like parsing files by seeking. I saw a corporate deployment for a DMS cause an outage due to that POS. Basically O(wtf) scalability. Hitting PgDn in explorer a few times could hammer SMB pretty hard.

This was 100% legitimate.

Edit: I’ve never run out of disk space also.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2019, 06:34:57 pm by bd139 »
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Unnecessary Complexity
« Reply #97 on: February 22, 2019, 06:49:01 pm »
Ah, search, I knew there was another gripe I was forgetting. The search in Win10 is absolutely hopeless, it will refuse to find files that are right there on that PC and then insist on searching the web! WTF? That has been useful to me exactly zero times, if I want to search the web I know how to open a browser! The Win7 search is much better but even that is crap compared to the search that XP, Win2k and even Win9x had. I have a really hard time understanding how they managed to screw up Search, such a basic and fundamental feature that had been perfected decades ago. I generally use the third party program "Everything" but it's a pain to have to use 3rd party stuff just to perform a basic function that has long been a built in feature of the OS.
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: Unnecessary Complexity
« Reply #98 on: February 22, 2019, 07:06:08 pm »
I don’t use search. I am from the old days where you had to put stuff in sensible places.
 

Online Berni

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Re: Unnecessary Complexity
« Reply #99 on: February 22, 2019, 07:26:13 pm »
Ah, search, I knew there was another gripe I was forgetting. The search in Win10 is absolutely hopeless, it will refuse to find files that are right there on that PC and then insist on searching the web! WTF? That has been useful to me exactly zero times, if I want to search the web I know how to open a browser! The Win7 search is much better but even that is crap compared to the search that XP, Win2k and even Win9x had. I have a really hard time understanding how they managed to screw up Search, such a basic and fundamental feature that had been perfected decades ago. I generally use the third party program "Everything" but it's a pain to have to use 3rd party stuff just to perform a basic function that has long been a built in feature of the OS.

Yep that's still one of my biggest gripes about Win 10. How the hell do you screw up a simple search feature that badly when it worked perfectly in Win 7.

Its become my main way of launching apps just because of how fast it is. For example if i want notepad then during the use of any other app i just hit the flowing keys:
[Win key] N O T [Enter key]
Want MS Word instead? Sure, just hit:
[Win key] W O [Enter key]
Or maybe Altium designer? Alright just do:
[Win key] A L T [Enter key]

No need to even touch the mouse, just hit <5 keyboard keys to launch almost any installed program in 1 second. If the search term doesn't get any matches within any start menu items it goes on to search trough things like control panel items if still not then it searched trough recently open files.

For example i want to create a new partition with the built in partition manager in the control panel. I could go open the control panel and look for it, but instead i can do this:
[Win key] P A R T
And suddenly Win7 offers me the number 1 search result as being "Create and format disk partitions", hit enter and you are in. Need device manager? Just start typing "device man" and hit enter. Gets you to any app or any built in OS feature faster than any point and click GUI could.
 


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