Unnecessary Complexity

[bd139]

The only reason those attacks work is the protocol is poorly implemented. Typical "not invented here" crypto.

You say that as if homebrew crypto is generally a good idea.

No entirely the opposite actually. Homebrew crypto is a disaster!

[bd139]

Complex things do work as long as they don’t compromise the logic of the system or make the user compromise too much. That’s really damn hard to get right.

My personal favourite was https://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/18/01#subj5.1

They went to some trouble to make it simpler than possible (cf Einsten).

This is like the persistent Siri problem I have ... "hey Siri call Frank". Next thing I know it's dialling HSBC. Every single time.

[dzseki]

1 TiB is ridiculous in a phone though. You’re almost using it wrong if you have that online.

Quite useful for 4K video recording and downloading stuff on Wifi in order to conserve data caps. Maybe it seems excessive for someone with unlimited data...

Capturing 4K video... just let me know when the first movie hits the cinema which was shot on a phone...

FYI even just a few years ago the vast majority of the movies were processed in 2K DI format, and yes these were sold in 4K BluRay too !

[james_s]

I could see it being useful if you want to take lots of videos and photos and never delete them. When I got my 8GB phone years ago it seemed like a crazy huge amount of space, but after a couple years I was constantly battling full memory and having to delete or otherwise remove stuff. Now I have a 64GB phone which so far has been spacious but I'm sure I'll eventually run out. 1TB seems huge but it's getting to where space is so cheap that you might as well have a lot of it.

[jmelson]

EDIT: Another vehicle-related example is the key fobs that come with basically every new car these days. My latest new vehicle doesn't even have a keyhole in the driver's door. My ability to get into, or start, or drive, that car is 100% dependent upon a button cell battery in my pocket. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Not just the fob battery, what if the CAR'S battery is dead?  You have to break a window to get in to unlatch the hood so you can jump the battery?
YIKES!

Jon

[SilverSolder]

Another awesome car lock design screw-up: an acquaintance left his Honda idling in the driveway for a few minutes, with all the doors shut, while he was unexpectedly delayed doing something in the garage.  After about 2-3 minutes:  CLICK!  all the doors locked automatically!  He was locked out of the car!

His wife had to come home from work with the second set of keys, which were on her key ring...

The power and low cost of electronics and embedded microcomputers has allowed bad designers to do things that would have been too expensive in the past, thereby preventing a lot of bad ideas from getting to market in the first place.

[NiHaoMike]

Capturing 4K video... just let me know when the first movie hits the cinema which was shot on a phone...

FYI even just a few years ago the vast majority of the movies were processed in 2K DI format, and yes these were sold in 4K BluRay too !

Several of the TV shows I watch film in 4K, and one even sometimes films in 5K!

Just 15 years ago, the idea of a phone that can record 1080p would have been considered overkill and pointless.

[David Hess]

Another awesome car lock design screw-up: an acquaintance left his Honda idling in the driveway for a few minutes, with all the doors shut, while he was unexpectedly delayed doing something in the garage.  After about 2-3 minutes:  CLICK!  all the doors locked automatically!  He was locked out of the car!

I have had that happen.  Now I make it a deliberate habit to leave one window down far enough that I can unlock the door from the outside under those conditions.

[vaser888]

Capturing 4K video... just let me know when the first movie hits the cinema which was shot on a phone...

FYI even just a few years ago the vast majority of the movies were processed in 2K DI format, and yes these were sold in 4K BluRay too !

It has already happened...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsane_(film)

[IDEngineer]

Found this:

Data came back from customers visiting the dealership that sometimes their car would not start. The quality team did an analysis and discovered that there is a whole spectrum of customers who hold the key for different periods of time in the crank position. Some hold a long time, and others only a burst.

It turns out there was a design change on the hardware, mid cycle, and the new starters needed the key to be held about 0.5 seconds longer. The problem was that some folks who renewed leases were “key bursters” who would hold the key for just a short burst of time. Before the hardware change, that quick burst was long enough to get a good steady crank and fire. After the design change, that same burst wasn’t long enough, and the engine would sometimes stall.

And, based on physics, its even harder to get a good second start (engine flooded/weaker battery), making the problem even worse.

So to fix this, the client implemented new code that was more digital in nature. It looked for the key bump, and software took control from there. The customer/driver had indicated a desire to start the engine, the software would then figure out how long to crank to get you a good start.

The key, at this point, was reduced to a formality; it was the request to crank that mattered, not how long it was held cranking by the customer.

The next logical step was just to delete the key altogether and use a button to request the crank.

And thus Push Button Start arrived.

I can confirm the keyed version of the above. On my EFI-engined wakeboat (which means there's an ECU, Engine Control Unit, running the engine) you turn the key to "Start" and instantly let go. The ECU understands this as a request to start the engine and handles the cranking duration automatically even if you've entirely let go of the key. In my opinion, this is the least objectionable "automated" way to handle this. Frankly, I prefer to directly control the engagement of the starter and I promise I can learn how long to hold the key in "Start". But if you MUST nanny-state me, go with my boat's solution. Don't condemn me to a keyless fob where the failure of either of two batteries renders the car totally inoperative.

I also remember reading some articles in car magazines, when pushbutton ignitions first started appearing in "normal" cars, where they were drooling about how cool it was to have this "race car like" starting button. They were clearly implying that if you wanted to be cool, you had to have a button and not be stuck in yesteryear with a key. They didn't fool me then, and they don't fool me now.

[ANTALIFE]

I'm a bit late to the party but from my experience it's just prototypes never leaving the prototype stage.

These days people like to iterate products as quickly as possible and this results in them using all sorts of dev/eval kits, something where you don't have to think as much as there is heaps of example schematics/code provided by the community/company. So they build this product and then find there is pressure to close it all up and go onto the next thing, rather than making another version or two to make the product a more manufacturable beast (which requires just as much if not more effort)

Now there is nothing wrong with using dev/eval kits, it's just that people that drive the overall project direction need to realise that things go though a number of iterations before the product becomes mature

[dzseki]

Capturing 4K video... just let me know when the first movie hits the cinema which was shot on a phone...

FYI even just a few years ago the vast majority of the movies were processed in 2K DI format, and yes these were sold in 4K BluRay too !

Several of the TV shows I watch film in 4K, and one even sometimes films in 5K!

Just 15 years ago, the idea of a phone that can record 1080p would have been considered overkill and pointless.

Because something is given in 4K that does not mean it has the resolution...
Just as you can attach a 24 bit AD after a ua741 opamp, but there is not much point in that...

[RoGeorge]

The power and low cost of electronics and embedded microcomputers has allowed bad designers to do things that would have been too expensive in the past, thereby preventing a lot of bad ideas from getting to market in the first place.

This perfectly summarize it. ^

[ogden]

The power and low cost of electronics and embedded microcomputers has allowed bad designers to do things that would have been too expensive in the past, thereby preventing a lot of bad ideas from getting to market in the first place.

This perfectly summarize it. ^

There is always another way to look at it Low cost of electronics and "software everything" approach resulted in devices that are so complex that it is nearly impossible to account for, not to mention test every "what if" scenario. Chances that oversight or even bug may slip into end product are increasing every day. Companies are rushing to introduce new products fast, they most likely cut corners on verification and testing of product subsystems that are not safety-critical.

[IDEngineer]

Low cost of electronics and "software everything" approach resulted in devices that are so complex that it is nearly impossible to account for, not to mention test every "what if" scenario.

Which relates straight back to the title of this thread. To use my steer-by-wire example, the operation of a steering shaft with rack and pinion gearing is immediately obvious, and many (most?) dodgy compromises are apparent even to an untrained eye. But a steer-by-wire system is complex almost to the point of opacity... as you point out, even the DESIGNERS may not know all of the edge cases, and it's almost certain those edge cases haven't been tested.

[eugenenine]

That's always stayed with me as a stark reminder that sometimes a simpler approach is the best. Not everything needs to be the most advanced tech... sometimes a steering shaft with a rack and pinion is just fine.

My cousin worked as a mechanic in a garage where a bunch of import tuners lives. He told me about the at least monthly call where they had to tow a Mitsubishi out of the ditch because their drive by wire steering would fail right.

EDIT: Another vehicle-related example is the key fobs that come with basically every new car these days. My latest new vehicle doesn't even have a keyhole in the driver's door. My ability to get into, or start, or drive, that car is 100% dependent upon a button cell battery in my pocket. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Chances are it does have a keyhole, its probably just hidden.  Check the user manual or google/youtube for how to find it.  typically it involves prying a cover off the handle.

[eugenenine]

Automotive keyfobs might win the award for "highest negative impact", based on the sheer number of potential victims multiplied by the magnitude of the negative impact when it does occur.

I wonder what the advantage is to the manufacturer. Most cars have been shipping with remotes for a while now, so the incremental cost to incorporate ignition probably isn't huge. Thus they save the cost of the boring old (and likely cheap) ignition switch, but have to spend on the fancy ignition pushbuttons (which are often illuminated with PWM LED's). Not sure that's a net savings.

I would actually pay EXTRA for a traditional keylock system, if only to eliminate rendering the vehicle completely useless due to a dead coin cell, forgotten fob, lost fob, fob dropped in water, etc. A clear-cut case of excessive complexity actually making things WORSE.

Traditional keylocks are actually quite expensive.  They have to be built heavy to withstand attempts at hammering in a screwdriver to break them.  They typically are a complex multi-pole switch, one of more poles for the ignition, the rest of the car electrical, the stuff thats on only for accy and the start position.  Also they have to be keys individually and then kept track of individually.  Search for the GM ignition switch recall/lawsuits for the most recent example of issues surrounding them which adds to cost.  A single pushbutton going to one of the computer modules is cheap, the LED PWM is already there for all of the other dash lights.

[eugenenine]

We're clearly on the same page here. That is one of my biggest gripes about modern cars other than being hideously ugly, they're so bloated with useless complex gadgets that I view as just more expensive stuff to break. Drive by wire systems have shown to be quite reliable so far but even so give me a mechanical steering column and cable operated throttle any day.

Drive by wire is actually less complex than traditional.  Take the throttle for example.  A traditional cable operated has the cable from the pedal to the throttle body, then a throttle position sensor,  an idle control motor, then another cable to a cruise control system.
Throttle by wire still has the motor but it can simply control the whole range instead of just idle.  The throttle position sensor moves inside and becomes a pedal position sensor.  The throttle cable goes away and the whole cruise control and cable goes away.  So four main parts becomes two.
I forgot the throttle cable from the auto transmission so 5 parts reduces to two.

[eugenenine]

EDIT: Another vehicle-related example is the key fobs that come with basically every new car these days. My latest new vehicle doesn't even have a keyhole in the driver's door. My ability to get into, or start, or drive, that car is 100% dependent upon a button cell battery in my pocket. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Not just the fob battery, what if the CAR'S battery is dead?  You have to break a window to get in to unlatch the hood so you can jump the battery?
YIKES!

There is usually a hidden backup somewhere.  You can open most hoods without even opening the door if you know how, hood locks(latches) only keep honest people honest.
Jon

[eugenenine]

I can confirm the keyed version of the above. On my EFI-engined wakeboat (which means there's an ECU, Engine Control Unit, running the engine) you turn the key to "Start" and instantly let go. The ECU understands this as a request to start the engine and handles the cranking duration automatically even if you've entirely let go of the key. In my opinion, this is the least objectionable "automated" way to handle this. Frankly, I prefer to directly control the engagement of the starter and I promise I can learn how long to hold the key in "Start". But if you MUST nanny-state me, go with my boat's solution. Don't condemn me to a keyless fob where the failure of either of two batteries renders the car totally inoperative.

  My 2004 chevy truck does this, so its been around long before push button start.  That and the throttle by wire allow newer years to shut off the engine instead of letting it idle.  So perfecting those two 'features' was needed for the auto start/stop you have on a lot of modern vehicles.

[IDEngineer]

Chances are it does have a keyhole, its probably just hidden.  Check the user manual or google/youtube for how to find it.  typically it involves prying a cover off the handle.

Our 2011 Toyota minivan has an emergency key within the fob, and the driver's door has a keyhole, so yes - that was available in the past. But current model cars have abandoned the physical key altogether. Example: Our new 2018 Honda Pilot has no external keyholes at all, and no emergency ignition keyhole either. The fob does have an emergency key but according to Honda its sole function is to lock the glovebox. If you're outside the locked car, you are SOL if EITHER the fob or car battery is dead because there is no mechanical backup. At least that I know of, can find in the manual, or that Google can find on my behalf.

Utter insanity.

[SilverSolder]

Drive by wire is actually less complex than traditional.  Take the throttle for example.  A traditional cable operated has the cable from the pedal to the throttle body...

I have had that cable get stuck at wide open throttle, on 4 different vehicles, so far in my life...   good thing there was a simple manual ignition switch in all of them!   I have never had a problem with a drive-by-wire electrically operated throttle (knock on wood).

[IDEngineer]

Drive by wire is actually less complex than traditional.

STEER-by-wire, however, adds complexity. And the short-term risk of a failure is much greater in your steering than in your throttle... even if you can't turn off the engine you can at least take it out of gear and let it redline itself into oblivion. Power assisted steering adds complexity but it's a backup system the way it's implemented, which means you can still steer even if the power system stops working.

Things should be designed to "fail gracefully" where possible, not catastrophically. Losing your car's remote control means you can still unlock, start, and drive the car in the traditional manner - IF it has traditional keylocks. Otherwise you are standing outside your car with very few options. Losing power steering means you can still steer the car. Losing steer-by-wire... well, who knows?

I have a related story that happened to my wife and son a year ago. Background: Toyota makes the only minivan in the USA that offers optional AWD, and we live in snow country so AWD/4WD is an absolute requirement. Trouble is, to make room for the rear differential Toyota jettisoned the spare tire (!!!) and deliver the vehicle with runflats (!!!). Those are about 2X as expensive, drive horribly, and only last about 30K miles, so we had the local tire shop replace them with four top-end traditional radials and bought a spare wheel with a spare tire mounted on it, which we carry in the back end. Returning to the story, some object in the road took out a tire in the minivan. This was very late at night (of course) during an intense snowstorm (of course) while I was out of town (of course). But my family is self-reliant so they broke out the jack and got the bad wheel off. When they went to mount the spare, the wheel had some sort of decorative cover over the lug holes - which was held on by a special screw requiring a special tool! They called me from the side of the road, across the country, and I seriously could not understand WTF they were saying because how can it possibly be that they can't "get to" the lug holes on a car wheel? They finally hung up in frustration. The story is long, but the short version is that they ended up having AAA trailer the car to the tire shop at midnight. The next morning the tire shop's response was "Oops". It also turned out that the lug holes were so deep and narrow that the factory lug nuts wouldn't even fit. Needless to say, when I got home that wheel cover had a serious and permanent accident... I confirmed the wheel actually fit (something I should have done earlier)... and I required the shop to provide a dedicated set of lug nuts free that now stay with that spare. All of this was a result of "unnecessary complexity", just exactly like a keyless fob with no mechanical backup key.

[IanMacdonald]

Drive by wire is actually less complex than traditional.  Take the throttle for example.  A traditional cable operated has the cable from the pedal to the throttle body...

I have had that cable get stuck at wide open throttle, on 4 different vehicles, so far in my life...   good thing there was a simple manual ignition switch in all of them!   I have never had a problem with a drive-by-wire electrically operated throttle (knock on wood).

Difference is that a routine inspection of the bowden cable end would probably reveal fraying long before it jammed. The electronic throttle is not amenable to inspection, and the failure could happen at any time.

[SilverSolder]

...the wheel had some sort of decorative cover over the lug holes - which was held on by a special screw requiring a special tool!

OMG what a crazy idea.  How do some of these ideas pass their design reviews?

I guess we have to be really careful when shopping for cars, and insist on locks, keys, etc., (and hubcaps that can be removed without special tools now added to the list!), and tell the salesperson the reason for not buying a particular car.  If enough of us do that, the manufacturers will change their ways.