Why are people angry at Greece? What is going on in the EU

[VladKEasternTiger]

Hi everyone, okay this has nothing to do with electronics, from last week I been speaking to a lot of people in real life and online and yes Ive seen the riots in Greece but why are people angry with this particular country, its not only this country, the peope ive spoken to were general people i.e. taxi drivers, hair dressers, shop keepers, traders in my country the UK and all off them are very angry with the southern european countries such as Italy, Spain, Greece. I got mixed answers from them when I asked, so if people can explain in leymans terms why people are mad at these countries id appreciate it? Im not a politics person so no big words. Sure I know what Hung parliament means could I ever get away from that phrase  

[Simon]

I think the countries you mention had to buy into the euro. I know Italy certainly paid the EU to enter the euro because it's economy did not meet the euro requirements, personally I saw this as a contradiction but then maybe we are seeing the result of that very contradiction. It might mean help for those countries for fear of crashing this precious currency for all but really if they had to pay to be in it I can't see the point, economically or politically.

I think the biggest disaster is that the people of the country who have no fault will have to pay the bill and this is what makes them very angry

[charliex]

Because people are generally sheep, know very little about the running of the world, believe the media, and don't want to think too much. You just blame what seems obvious, and most people will be ok with it.

Its always fascinated me how easily entire populations are lead around by the nose by advertising and commerce, fish in a barrell.

[Simon]

Because people are generally sheep, know very little about the running of the world, believe the media, and don't want to think too much. You just blame what seems obvious, and most people will be ok with it.

Its always fascinated me how easily entire populations are lead around by the nose by advertising and commerce, fish in a barrell.

very true and one of the reasons I don't have a television, because i don't particularly have time for the unrealistic view it gives of the world and the catching adds and headlines that are in fact very shallow.

[Kiriakos-GR]

Every country has two or more political groups .

Those groups trying to prove that they have deferent philosophy - views - believes

Every group uses the media to create impressions , gain the public interest, and with it voters.

The long story sort ,  we should stop the bankers from playing "the masters of the universe" .
The weakness of our politicians "world wide" are that they get payed by the bankers .
And they do not care for the interest of their own country men .
They politicians had build special laws , and they can stay protected by them,
even if they do the biggest crimes.

My only advice to the young people are , to go forward and involve them selfs with politics,
they should learn few basics, about the state it self , how it operates.
Only then,  they will be able to judge what is right and what is not , and by their force ( Vote ),
to fight and change any injustice of the system.

Staying home .. watching TV ... trusting unworthy people ... soon enough your country will be called as Greece too. 

       

[kc1980]

The island of Mykonos is being auctioned on Ebay!!  Hurry up and bid folks. 

[EEVblog]

Because Greece got their debts called in first. That's what happens when you continually live on credit and beyond your means in a crazy illusionary worldwide monetary system. The rest of the world is no different, it's just that Greece got caught out first, rotten luck. My money was on the US going belly up first, guess I lost that one.

Dave.

[Kiriakos-GR]

debts and credit are tools.
Powerful to help, or to cause distraction.

I have a dept of 8000 EUR on two credit cards, card holder for 10 years.
My Status was good , at the two first years, then I stayed with out stable work for 4 years ,
I had to get cash from the card to pay the card, so to avoid temporarily the problem.
The word "temporarily" lasted longer than expected.
The last 3 years  I have hide my self, in one program against unemployment.
Half payment than a real job.
Even so I was able to keep my Bank happy , and from time to time I gain some extra cash from doing repairs of electronics - computer repairs - or installing small networks .

In six months from now, the program stops , and there is no way , to become an permanent worker,
in the factory that I work as electrician , that it haves to do with the national defense.      
 
I own a shop , (property of my father - died ) ,  its full of tools , and even today I am still buying  
and so , I am hopping that I will use it , as my only hope, to deal the future.

Now , by all the country to be economically suppressed , please tell me , how I can survive even as an freelancer , when the man next door are dry too ?

The factories releasing people , not hiring .. and everything statical as frozen movie.

I am not going to move else ware ,  I am from the crazy ones, who gives their blood for the flag,
until the last drop.

I am not aware the size of the crimes that the Americans like Leeman brothers, and other jerks had play over my country ,
but no one will touch Greece as long  we are  10.000.000 of crazy ones , with 100.000 as army forces.  

I will pay all my dept , if I get the chance.

But even so , I am not loosing my humor , and I will continue to tease you, and give you Hell.. with the quality of my English   

[flolic]

In my country, when you have money problem people will often tell you that 'you are in debt like Greece'.
And that is very old saying, so problem is obviously not new. 

(I am not saying that my country is any better, actually I believe that we are in much deeper sh*t). 

[Kiriakos-GR]

well, i'm not entirily sure whats going on here. but what i'm really certain is... POLITIC SUCKS !!!!

Thats why I am advising the young people mostly , and everyone who likes to call him self as a " citizen ",
to act properly as " citizen " , and spent some time of his daily life , so to help the "Democracy" to operate correctly , and to baby seat it , so to remain " Healthy ".

The "Democracy" its like a little flower ,  needs work and care , so to remain healthy.
The " citizens " should always act as guardians of it, and  be in a " surveillance mode ".

The corrupted Politicians , its a known issue ,  If all of us are staying home and not interfere with the operation of our own countries, we open the door to " corruption ".  

Greece, no matter the troubles right now , it will recover , it always does .

The damage would be mostly ,  the delay of catching up again , one productive rhythm ,
that will guaranty the prosperity of every one who lives in the country.


I am well informed , about the problems that other countries haves too.
Political or financial ..

Greece even as one small geographical location, always was first in the line , to help others..
By sending  Doctors  and supplies, or even cash, to any one in need worldwide .
Today it needs our "own"  Help , and it will have it.  

Also problems like this, are always one good opportunity to "test" your "Friends" worldwide ..    
( In a Countries level )

And In a Countries level ,  I can not hide my negative feelings about the  "British - English- UK " politicians.
They feel safe staying next to the European Union,  but they do not helping it.
Looks to be sold out to the enemies of the European union .        




 


  

[EEVblog]

It's kind of like negative gearing an investment property. You can only win if things keep going well and you hop off the merry-go-round at the right time.
The US are ultimately screwed too, it's just a matter of time. It's easy fixed though, just pull the troops out of the fake war, scrap the nuke budget, and then pay off that Chinese debt.

Dave.

[Kiriakos-GR]

From the today head lines, the News are very positive for the European currency and everyone related to it.

I agree that US are ultimately screwed too, but they have not learn anything from the past,
and this is worrying me the most.
 
With all those fake wars and hostile financial games , they damage the positive profile ,
of any proud American citizen, who is peaceful, creative, and honest as individual.


No I am not going to scream  " Make Sex " and no War ...  but having Sex its not a bad idea  

[Simon]

No I am not going to scream  " Make Sex " and no War ...  but having Sex its not a bad idea  

well it's the one pleasurable activity that does not cost.

[kc1980]

Well, if anything, the global economic slowdown is somewhat curbing our relentless raping of our planet's natural resources.  If only we were a prudent species who had the foresight and discipline to used this economic lull as an opportunity to reign back excessive consumption and war-mongering. 

It is entirely possible -- but not plausible --  for all nations to agree to stop military spending and invest the saving directly into healthcare, public infrastructure, R&D, etc.  Overwhelmingly, technological progress enables humans to enjoy a high standard of living.  It is also true that as a nation's standard of living increases, the nation's birth rate decreases, which improves the per-capita wealth -- in real terms.  So, why don't we invest in the things that foster innovation?  Because our existing economy rewards short-term capital gains and penalizes long-term investments.  And, fundamentally, the goal of "the system" is not to maximize human happiness.  The "invisible hand" needs a brain and pair of eyes.

The Western world is not a populist democracy; instead, it is a democracy consisting of exceedingly powerful institutions and interest groups.

Off my soapbox...

[Simon]

It is entirely possible -- but not plausible --  for all nations to agree to stop military spending and invest the saving directly into healthcare, public infrastructure, R&D, etc.  Overwhelmingly, technological progress enables humans to enjoy a high standard of living.  It is also true that as a nation's standard of living increases, the nation's birth rate decreases, which improves the per-capita wealth -- in real terms. 
Off my soapbox...

well might not be the case in the UK where having children is a good money earner with our current welfare system, so we have lots of children who are not really brought up very well running around with the best they can get of technology (which is ever cheaper due to the high turnover of technological sales and the high speed at which goods are thrown away even in this recession) but without the foggiest how any of it works and with very little basic skills in life.

[hans]

I reckon it is impossible to stop military spending at all. Here in holland we had a very big issue, as our international image was damaged, when was announced we as a country will pull our troops back out of Afghanistan. Personally I find it important to do this kind of stuff, to stabilize a country if possible. Still though, I thought the decision to pull back was good as well because there wasn't so much happening in that way, just a lot of fighting instead of building. Sadly military is also for fighting, partly for defending. Some abuse this as a cover (look at Korea or something).

Anyway, what I think went wrong in Greece is just a complete wrong set of 'rules' in the government hold up for way too long. I read through some of the facts a few days back and I was stunned. I believe you can get out of work when you're 53 years old there. We're already debating whether we should raise the age in our country to 67 (even some say 68!) instead of 65. Now that's a whole different story.

I also believe government people get paid for like 13 and 14 months. Personally I find that the biggest piece of arrogance I have ever seen. I have never heard that people get a 14 month here. I didn't even know companies would pay a 13 month at all here. If you were unlucky, they didn't pay you at all. What gives them the right to even think of having a 13month salary?! I don't know who told all of those people to be mad about it, but I don't see the point. Must be some kind of nationwide brainwashing, because I don't see any lunacy in this at all.

What I do know is that the government has been spending way more than they could for a lot of years. Now that's actually illegal when it's a state of the EU , because you may only spend like 3% more than you have for income. So they lied about it. All of this leads to huge debts, which leads to less trust, which leads to high rates, which leads to even higher costs, more debts, and the circle continues. So the government is cutting costs quite dramatically for them, but at the same time; we pay about the same amount of tax in Holland too. So it's all about the change I think that's so drastic, rather than the result is really that bad. We live like this for years, and some complain, but not like this scale at all.

[Simon]

I also believe government people get paid for like 13 and 14 months. Personally I find that the biggest piece of arrogance I have ever seen. I have never heard that people get a 14 month here. I didn't even know companies would pay a 13 month at all here. If you were unlucky, they didn't pay you at all. What gives them the right to even think of having a 13month salary?! I don't know who told all of those people to be mad about it, but I don't see the point. Must be some kind of nationwide brainwashing, because I don't see any lunacy in this at all.

go easy on that one, I don't know about Greek working regs but in Italy when I finally got a legal job I was paid a 13th wage and some people like dustmen got a 14th, it was handy as it was in December so helped with general xmas and winter expenses, but then i don't know if this is a rule for the whole of Greece or just higher paid jobs. It is easy to make something you don't know everything about look bad by exposing snippets of truth instead of the full picture

[hans]

It's only for people with wages of 2500+ euro per month.

Personally I find people (these are, people with higher incomes that will lose some of it) shouldn't be complaining too much about 13 and 14 months. If you would be getting it all the time, then add it to the basic wage instead of calling it a 13 and 14 month. I personally see it as a bonus right now, and I think there are enough reasons to hate it at this moment.

It might also be because I'm also a bit jealous of how less tax they paid in the last years in a way of personal gain. Now their government has some very deep trouble though, so that jealously is quickly gone. But really, I think people should understand that the economy is having it heavy, their government even more, the Euro (which is the economy); but all they are complaining about is their personal interest. Which is somewhat.. doubtful if it's the right thing

[Simon]

well I suppose giving it only to higher paid earners makes it a bit of a bonus but then it is probably calculated within their yearly wages. basically they may be getting less per month and then the 13 and 14th wage, what you need to look at is are they worth what they are paid

[kc1980]

Yeah, I try to remind myself not to be an idealist.  The fact of the matter is, the global military-industrial complex underpins our economy -- even during times of peace.  There's no way to get rid of it overnight as it would be a sure way to destroy the economy. 

Politics is all about threats and promises; they would be worthless without military might to back them up.  Also, much of the way we colonize the third-world these days is through proxy wars.

Bottom line:  Einstein was right -- "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."

[Simon]

Yeah, I try to remind myself not to be an idealist.  The fact of the matter is, the global military-industrial complex underpins our economy -- even during times of peace.  There's no way to get rid of it overnight as it would be a sure way to destroy the economy. 

Politics is all about threats and promises; they would be worthless without military might to back them up.  Also, much of the way we colonize the third-world these days is through proxy wars.

Bottom line:  Einstein was right -- "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."

I have a job due to the fact that the UK have ordered new tanks, ok we only do air-conditioning and radiators but we would be no more without military contracts, the commercial stuff is only just picking up

[Kiriakos-GR]

basically they may be getting less per month and then the 13 and 14th wage

This is how it works ...  its money that you had work for , kept all this months by your Boss,
and given back, every Christmas and Easter ...

If you were deposit your money at one bank ... you would probably get even some interest for all that time , that your money are in the bank.

The Greek workers , just get their money back ... and the only one who has any benefit, its your own Boss,
Imagine if some one has 50 workers or more ,  how convenient it is to hold all that money for several months .. and using them for his own interest !!   

[Polossatik]

No I am not going to scream  " Make Sex " and no War ...  but having Sex its not a bad idea  

well it's the one pleasurable activity that does not cost.

I assume you don't have any kids? 

[Kiriakos-GR]

No I am not going to scream  " Make Sex " and no War ...  but having Sex its not a bad idea  

well it's the one pleasurable activity that does not cost.

I assume you don't have any kids?  

Ok we all got it ..  Foreigners and locals    

What you probably does not aware, are the CAT III 600V condoms  

[DJPhil]

CAT III 600V condoms

Those would sell like hotcakes on thinkgeek. You might be on to something!
I can't help being curious now, I wonder what the breakdown voltage is for the average condom.

[Simon]

CAT III 600V condoms

Those would sell like hotcakes on thinkgeek. You might be on to something!
I can't help being curious now, I wonder what the breakdown voltage is for the average condom.

oh dear a debate about politics turned to condoms hahahaha that's so funny. Your probably also going to be asking the the dielectric specs. next 

[kc1980]

wow, some of us have a way with words....

Better yet, what's the condom's impedance at resonance frequency?  I wouldn't want to throw arcs across the room.

[Simon]

"impedance at resonance frequency?"
at first... what's its resonance frequency? if its somewhere near KHz magnitude or greater, then we shouldnt worry about... unless its in the range 10Hz or lower. And even, at near 10Hz, only a superman can reach that, i think

0.5-1 Hz depends the levels of excitation and thermal conditions at about 0.6 Hz it will tend to increase slightly in volume

[VladKEasternTiger]

No I am not going to scream  " Make Sex " and no War ...  but having Sex its not a bad idea  

well it's the one pleasurable activity that does not cost.

Haha Only if your good looking like me
Otherwise you gotta pay to get laid

[VladKEasternTiger]

It is entirely possible -- but not plausible --  for all nations to agree to stop military spending and invest the saving directly into healthcare, public infrastructure, R&D, etc.  Overwhelmingly, technological progress enables humans to enjoy a high standard of living.  It is also true that as a nation's standard of living increases, the nation's birth rate decreases, which improves the per-capita wealth -- in real terms. 
Off my soapbox...

well might not be the case in the UK where having children is a good money earner with our current welfare system, so we have lots of children who are not really brought up very well running around with the best they can get of technology (which is ever cheaper due to the high turnover of technological sales and the high speed at which goods are thrown away even in this recession) but without the foggiest how any of it works and with very little basic skills in life.

True where I live they are lots of young and middle aged girls who have lots of children and are pregnant every year to different fathers, all the children look different, black, white, mixed..... also these people dont work yet own expensive Japanese made technology such as Sony playstations, Mobile Phone, Wide screen television with Plasma, You get my point.

[Kiriakos-GR]

It looks that the  " CAT III 600V condoms " turned out as an successful one  

But lets limit the conversation to the thread tittle ,  we are all guests here,
and we have to keep the balance between  "fun & serious"  by our own selfs.

Thanks.  




  

[Simon]

It is entirely possible -- but not plausible --  for all nations to agree to stop military spending and invest the saving directly into healthcare, public infrastructure, R&D, etc.  Overwhelmingly, technological progress enables humans to enjoy a high standard of living.  It is also true that as a nation's standard of living increases, the nation's birth rate decreases, which improves the per-capita wealth -- in real terms. 
Off my soapbox...

well might not be the case in the UK where having children is a good money earner with our current welfare system, so we have lots of children who are not really brought up very well running around with the best they can get of technology (which is ever cheaper due to the high turnover of technological sales and the high speed at which goods are thrown away even in this recession) but without the foggiest how any of it works and with very little basic skills in life.

True where I live they are lots of young and middle aged girls who have lots of children and are pregnant every year to different fathers, all the children look different, black, white, mixed..... also these people dont work yet own expensive Japanese made technology such as Sony playstations, Mobile Phone, Wide screen television with Plasma, You get my point.

of course if your quick off the mark and get pregnant at 16 claiming that the father was 13 at the time of conception you get lots of money from the newspapers as well for taking the piss out of the country when it turns out that the "dad" was another 16 year old and well lots of those around !

[Kiriakos-GR]

Well from the latest TV News , Spain announced similar financial measures, as Greece.

Cutting down salary's -5% ,  the government salary -15% ,  one contribution of 2.500EUR for every new born child , and possibly few more.

Lastly they said that it was Obama's idea , that the " European Leaders"  should unite and help its other with one tremendous amount of money , so to force the bad guys to stop pushing the Euro to hell ..

Yes thats the news , but unfortunately I am aware of the truth.

And the truth are that even if the Greek economy was not at it best ,
the dearest " Goldman Such "  are the major responsible,  for the attach in the Greek economy,
and by playing games  with the other " Good Boys " as "Leeman Brothers",
they managed to create an " totally fake " Crisis , and drive the government to act by getting extreme financial measures against the citizens.

The  " Goldman Such " had offer an tremendous financial help at Obama's elections campaign.

Who is kidding who ?

Never the less , all Greeks knows very well who is the enemy ,  and even if we do not have here "fake wars" with weapons ,  the financial  "fake wars"  ,  its what all should  watch out, from now and on.
       
       

[Simon]

basically the banks created non existant money for the future on the basis that they would get that money back from people to whom they had sold very risky mortgages and loans they could not possibly repay, when the cash did not appear it all went down in a chain, the banks should have more reserve funds but that means lending less and making less money. The world will always be an unpleasant place for those without a lot of money because it has is and will always be run by money, politics is just a show to make people think they live in a democracy.

[XynxNet]

Back to the original topic...
Greece is just a convenient scapegoat.
It is an economically and politicaly rather "weak" country and obviously really made some mistakes. Because of that as a politician or media-guy you can hammer at greece without risking a major penalty. (Imagine what would happen if the us, uk, france or germany were similiar targeted by foreign politicians or the media.)
The scapegoat part is, that politicians around the world can hide their own responsibilities and problems behind the case greece. So the US doesn't talk about the responsibility of their own financial firms for this economy crisis or their institutional procedure of letting the world pay their depts. The german government doen't need to talk about their streak of annually records of new depths. The UK doesn't need to talk about the resonsibility of their financial "industrie", or for that matter about fucking up their whole economy by major deindustrialization efforts in the last decades.....

[Kiriakos-GR]

The UK doesn't need to talk about the resonsibility of their financial "industrie", or for that matter about fucking up their whole economy by major deindustrialization efforts in the last decades.....

I agree and the same happened also with Spain ..

But there is a good reason ...  They had colonies  , they never helped their own people by being productive.
They was using the cheap labor at the colonies .. and their resources  , so to become wealthy .
Now that China offers cheaper labor ,  all those countries who was base their " development " by suppressing the colonies , lost all their financial power.

I know that I do simplify things by allot, but the language does not helping me much at such subjects.

" deindustrialization "  yes  we have plenty , simply because every one found the smartest way for relaxed cash ....  "Stock Holder "  " Investor "  the most relaxed jobs ...  let the other ones to kill them selfs so to build  ....   we  ( the "Stock Holders "  " Investor's " ), we will just make the easy  profit , the easy " Do " (dollar) .

The tragic mistake in this story , are that millions of people , who gave their own financial power , to be controlled my the thieves  who called as banks.

And now we pay the price ...  

There is only one way to stop this monster , that we have helped to become that big.
Its to remove all the cash from the banks , to cash out any stocks , and to start helping its other by starting new productive business ,  that haves to do with simple stuff ,  like food production .

  

 

[VladKEasternTiger]

basically the banks created non existant money for the future on the basis that they would get that money back from people to whom they had sold very risky mortgages and loans they could not possibly repay, when the cash did not appear it all went down in a chain, the banks should have more reserve funds but that means lending less and making less money. The world will always be an unpleasant place for those without a lot of money because it has is and will always be run by money, politics is just a show to make people think they live in a democracy.

I know im going off topic of what I originally started but dont you think the actual Compound Interest System is to blame here? The banks lend money to someone 10k that someone lends it to someone else and gets interest, that someone else lends it to someone else that gets interest and so fourth, my point is this is a domino cycle and 1 problem can damage the chain. How can people pay a loan after the time and interest added to it by the time its finished it would be 4  times as much as the original. I just think somethings wrong with the foundation of this interest based system, forgive me if I sound insane but I read my Bible and Urusy is mentioned as forbidden

[VladKEasternTiger]

The UK doesn't need to talk about the resonsibility of their financial "industrie", or for that matter about fucking up their whole economy by major deindustrialization efforts in the last decades.....

I agree and the same happened also with Spain ..

But there is a good reason ...  They had colonies  , they never helped their own people by being productive.
They was using the cheap labor at the colonies .. and their resources  , so to become wealthy .
Now that China offers cheaper labor ,  all those countries who was base their " development " by suppressing the colonies , lost all their financial power.

I know that I do simplify things by allot, but the language does not helping me much at such subjects.

" deindustrialization "  yes  we have plenty , simply because every one found the smartest way for relaxed cash ....  "Stock Holder "  " Investor "  the most relaxed jobs ...  let the other ones to kill them selfs so to build  ....   we  ( the "Stock Holders "  " Investor's " ), we will just make the easy  profit , the easy " Do " (dollar) .

The tragic mistake in this story , are that millions of people , who gave their own financial power , to be controlled my the thieves  who called as banks.

And now we pay the price ...  

There is only one way to stop this monster , that we have helped to become that big.
Its to remove all the cash from the banks , to cash out any stocks , and to start helping its other by starting new productive business ,  that haves to do with simple stuff ,  like food production .

  

 

Yes Im fully aware Spain bled the colonies in south and central america dry but now these colonies have fought hard, if you look at it countries like the uk and holland have exploited africa but now Africa is doing trade with China, people dont really need countries like the uk anymore. Look at the pound shops/dollar stores all these products on the shelfs are from the far East.

[Kiriakos-GR]

someone else lends it to someone else that gets interest and so fourth

If I am the bank , and offer my money , to some one that he is known , that he is unable to pay them back.

I DO SO , because I am planing to get his house , and everything that he has ...

SO I PLAN TO MURDER MY CUSTOMER , IS THAT E LEGAL ?

[Kiriakos-GR]

Yes Im fully aware Spain bled the colonies in south and central america dry but now these colonies have fought hard, if you look at it countries like the uk and holland have exploited africa but now Africa is doing trade with China, people dont really need countries like the uk anymore. Look at the pound shops/dollar stores all these products on the shelfs are from the far East.

I agree on that too , the UK has nothing to offer as original products , that why they had become Bankers , stock holders  - investors .
They play with the money too.
And now they are ready to collapse.
And the sad part is that they did not support the European Union , and they will fall alone with out help from any one. 

[Simon]

actually England is a member of the EU I believe, it costs us £40M a day and to have most of our laws made by france-germany-belgium, aka the countries that pretty much run the EU, what we were not silly enough to do was get the Euro. So we pay £40M a day, get told what to do by other countries and if the country collapses they won't care, nice little fraternity the EU is ! or perhaps it is the EEC (in any case they tell us who we can and can't trade with those who are older than I will remember what happened when we got into this mess and how much better we were off before it!)

[Ferroto]

actually England is a member of the EU I believe, it costs us £40M a day and to have most of our laws made by france-germany-belgium, aka the countries that pretty much run the EU, what we were not silly enough to do was get the Euro. So we pay £40M a day, get told what to do by other countries and if the country collapses they won't care, nice little fraternity the EU is ! or perhaps it is the EEC (in any case they tell us who we can and can't trade with those who are older than I will remember what happened when we got into this mess and how much better we were off before it!)

Thus confirming my theory that the EU is an extortion racket of epic proportions.

[Simon]

if you ask your parents about what happened when the UK joined the EEC you will be horrified (unless of course your old enough to remember) Britain was doing just fine and free to trade with whom it wanted, we had to stop making our own milk or get fined ! can you believe it ? we had to buy our meat off the French but when good were sent to France the farmers destroyed it.

The idea of the Euro is that Europe was economically united, how can that be so when prices differ so much from one country to another. The initial exchange was set for each country to make prices equal, but they are not. Unless there is just one government in the whole of europe it will never be united economically. There is nothing wrong with individual countries that are strong acting individually but of course with respect for neighbouring countries. Hell America has never paid into the UN but if America goes to war on a whim so does europe.

[Kiriakos-GR]

Wow  thats sound familiar ...

Hey Europeans ... make the perfect community , the perfect laws , and we will join in.

The European community had make and mistakes too, we are all so deferent , and takes time to become familiar with the problems of the neighbor .

15 years back the EU had pay money to Greece, so to destroy an portion of orange trees , and to to destroy an portion of fishing boats too.

Yes it was mistakes ... but we have to move on .    

I believe that the European Union after this crisis , it would be the best place to live in.

[Simon]

Yes it was mistakes ... but we have to move on .    

I believe that the European Union after this crisis , it would be the best place to live in.

I doubt it, why should a country DESTROY (kill) its livestock and smash essential things like fishing boats because another one says: I don't want you to make that for yourself you must buy it from me, but when you send me your goods I will destroy them. There are third world countries dying of starvation and we destroy food and means of procuring food to satisfy someone else economic wants. This world is seriously broke !

The human memory is so short. We have just had the elections in Britain. Who did the idiots in this country vote for ? the people who took the piss the most with their expenses claims and showed clearly that they did not care about us but only about how much money they could rake off people who are struggling to survive as it is while they earn millions a year before being politicians. the human being and in particular the British variant is a self destructive ass-hole !!!

[Kiriakos-GR]

I have very nice and positive ideas , about how to turn the European union in to a better mechanism.

I could burn my oranges , if Europe was buying all my cotton first ,
instead of getting low quality from Africa !!

But this is not the right place to expand my views ... What I do in praxis , are to vote for the local political party, that has or shares my values and points of view.

Thats why I encourage the people and the young ones , to start participating in every function of democracy ,  so to fight and protect it , as watchers.

Behind every ugly decision of the European Union council , are hiding bankers and gamblers,
we should throw them out , by participating .

If you let the sheep unguarded even for a single night , the Woolf it will get it.
 

   
 

[Simon]

in England it is a job to get people to vote, and even then some polling stations could not cope ! really the UK is heading towards being a 3rd world country

[VladKEasternTiger]

in England it is a job to get people to vote, and even then some polling stations could not cope ! really the UK is heading towards being a 3rd world country

Explain why you choose to live there then I presume you are Italian?

[Simon]

in England it is a job to get people to vote, and even then some polling stations could not cope ! really the UK is heading towards being a 3rd world country

Explain why you choose to live there then I presume you are Italian?

No I'm British but had one Italian grandmother and "spent time" in Italy so can speak for both sides. in Italy it is also a job to get people to vote but I think that the British society has become less interested in it's duty than the Italian. In fact for all that people assume this country is great I have seen many stupid things in the UK that in Italy are just done logically, the UK has really been taken over by purely commercial interests and life just takes the piss

[Kiriakos-GR]

the UK has really been taken over by purely commercial interests and life just takes the piss

I has hopping for one more romantic answer ..
Like ... I love Big Ben ... fish and chips ...Red buses ...  and to waving my hand at the Queen and all the Royal Puppet show ..    

In my life , I had an English person as partner for five months ( He was electrician ) , also I had as customers , about 30 families of English people , and many other nationality s .
As I had a business in one Greek "heavily Touristic" as destination Island, that called as Skiathos ..
And so, because I was the only multi-language repair man in electronics , I become easily popular .
And I had the chance to be close to all , and  get from first hand "the picture"  of how they  act - react - think - and behave.    
I kept there my own business running for two years , plus the partnership time ,
I stayed there for an total of 2,5 years .

The most of all those foreigners , who had become also as friends to me , was the English ones..

My conclusion about the political life in UK , ended with one question , How came one smart group of people and well educated ,  still supports and admires the Royal asses , who had cause only damage in our society.

Any way I am not expecting answers, I just wonder.

[Simon]

the royal family is just a side show they don't really do much except cost us money. You lucky, when i lived in Italy most English tourists we met were rude and did not want to talk to us, my grandmother tried to suggest a good place to park to a couple that were discussing their problem in a shop but they headed of in case she was going to ask them for money for telling them where they could park.

oh and another nice little story about the EU ? it was the then Italian UE president that did a deal (that got him back hander money) whereby the good Italian rice (from his OWN country) was change for poor quality German rice. So the Italian sold German garbage with their name on it while the German company sold the nice rice with their name on it, who gained ? the man that had nothing to do with growing rice and betrayed his own people who have to fight to have their unique products recognized. I hate to think how many "British" people think that parmigiana cheese is just grated cheese because that is how any grated cheese is labelled in the UK, in reality is it cheese made ONLY in Parma in Italy and is normally used grated, not any old hard cheese ground up and sold in a salt dispenser !

[Kiriakos-GR]

In comparison with the " Italian rice " story ,  I have the  " Greek Olive Oil " Story ...

Its the best ever  " In quality "  Olive oil, world wide ..

Italy and Spain gets the Greek Olive oil so to mix with their own , so to gain some of it taste.
And exports this oils with their flag..

Now that we will start export in China , I like to see with what they will mix their oils ?
Soon or later their inferior product, it will be relieved.

And when I am talking about " inferior " ,  I am not saying that is garbage, but if you pay for the best ever ,
you must getting it ..
The inferior Oil  , has lower price , and thats the reason why all this are happening .   

 

[Simon]

well I know a lot of Spanish oil is sold in Italy although it is unmixed, I think that because the Spanish economy is weaker and the pay less in Spain imported Spanish oil is cheaper than locally produced oil. I think the same might be true for Greek oil

Now I'm not sure about which oil is of better quality and will not get into that argument as it will get down to a "my country is better than yours because it's my country" but i know that there are various qualities of oil and it is mostly based on the sort of filtration the oil undergoes, and which "pressing" the oil came from because the olives and resulting pulp get more than one pressing but the more you do the worse the oil gets I think 4 is the norm, there is in fact an oil sold in Italy which is called of "sansa" which is the name of the remaining pulp that is virtually useless but gets that last pressing to get the last dregs of oil which is not the best but it is sold cheaply.

In the UK their idea of "extra virgin" oil is oil that is practically transparent with a suspended green filament of real oil which is probably the "extra virgin" bit, it is so unlike the other 99.999999% of the bottle that it won't even mix. But then the English really do not know a thing about food and most don't have time to cook so they like gimmicks

If we want to talk about mixing one countries product with another lets turn to our French friends. Do you really believe that all of the champaign made really comes from champaign ? Now I have driven trough France and through champaign and seen the little village from the motorway (with the sign up telling you it is champaign), the quantity of grapes in the region begs belief for one of the worlds most famous wine making areas. it is impossible that they really produce that much. But ah listen to our friends in the EU parliament and what do they say ? that is there is 10% of french wine in the champaign it can be called french champaign (it is a rule valid for any wine in fact), so where does the other 90+% come from ?: Italy, the grapes undergo initial fermentation after which the juice is transported in tanks to france, and it is small wonder that the border police were so interested in our trailer (that we had made higher) when we crossed the border end of September because they had decided we were trying to smuggle wine out.

So the Italian wine becomes champaign and people feel really good about drinking this drink and feel so stuck up over a lie that was discovered back in the 50's. Oh I tried telling people here how it works but they will not have it lest their illusion be shattered ! champaign is also in the north part of france where the weather is as shit as it is in the UK and in fact guess what we see lots of fields of instead of grapes ?: weat and sweetcorn !!!

[Polossatik]

Just to throw in a little fact that gets not enough media coverage, the German government did not decided to help Greece because they like Greece so much, but under tremendous pressure from the German banks who fear that Greece stepping out would also trigger the same problems with Italy, Spain etc... This little graph put it nicely in perspective

While those loans stay "in euro" even if one of those country's would "step out", the nett result would be they would never see that money back because the country would default and introduce the "new drachma" or so, needing huge write off's , who will be far bigger than the write off's of the DE banks during the US derivates crisis, and they barely survived that... Basically that is what all the fuzz is about, if this happens the DE banking system collapses.

ho and , I'm maybe biased as Belgian, but I do think the EU is a good idea (not worse then any "local" government that is being bullied by pressure groups), the only real problem is that for some area's, like finance or foreign politics the EU itself simply has not enough power to do things properly.
Note that I'm not saying the EU should take everything over...

I've lived in the UK also a few years ago, and frankly I must say that I found the country in a lot worse state than I thought it was. And I'm not only referring that what is considered "food" in the UK (and yes, I do agree , belgium is silly and has it's own stupid problems, but still...)

[Simon]

yes and as I said Italy and Spain bought into the Euro, their economies were too weak to match the other EU countries so that had to pay money to get into it. For me this obliterates of object of the Euro but then money is money.

Yes the UK is in trouble on all fronts, the country is in debt and people are irresponsible and won't even look out for themselves. Yes you can blame banks for giving people loans who could not pay them back but for christs sake anyone should be clever enough to figure out how much debt they can afford. Really I think that it is safe to say that the average Italian is far more savvy about life than the dipstick UK population.

[VladKEasternTiger]

yes and as I said Italy and Spain bought into the Euro, their economies were too weak to match the other EU countries so that had to pay money to get into it. For me this obliterates of object of the Euro but then money is money.

Yes the UK is in trouble on all fronts, the country is in debt and people are irresponsible and won't even look out for themselves. Yes you can blame banks for giving people loans who could not pay them back but for christs sake anyone should be clever enough to figure out how much debt they can afford. Really I think that it is safe to say that the average Italian is far more savvy about life than the dipstick UK population.

What makes it even worse is manufacturing seems to be non existent all I am seeing is jobs in call center environments its now more service based economy 

[VladKEasternTiger]

I've lived in the UK also a few years ago, and frankly I must say that I found the country in a lot worse state than I thought it was. And I'm not only referring that what is considered "food" in the UK (and yes, I do agree , belgium is silly and has it's own stupid problems, but still...)
[/quote]

Please kindly explain more about the uk ?

I want to see your argument

[Simon]

yes and as I said Italy and Spain bought into the Euro, their economies were too weak to match the other EU countries so that had to pay money to get into it. For me this obliterates of object of the Euro but then money is money.

Yes the UK is in trouble on all fronts, the country is in debt and people are irresponsible and won't even look out for themselves. Yes you can blame banks for giving people loans who could not pay them back but for christs sake anyone should be clever enough to figure out how much debt they can afford. Really I think that it is safe to say that the average Italian is far more savvy about life than the dipstick UK population.

What makes it even worse is manufacturing seems to be non existent all I am seeing is jobs in call center environments its now more service based economy 

The problem is that manufacturing is virtually non existent and most of the UK is service based but then plenty of british companies (That probably are not british anyway) use indian call centres. The strength of a countries truly lies in it's manufacturing power. If europe and the rest of the world stopped trading with the UK how long would we survive ? I work for an engineering/manufacturing company and in reality we make very little and spend a lot of time modifying and correcting chinese, UAE and romanian junk we buy in cheaply, we have no control over quality (and I know that as I'm the one and only goods in QC inspector) and even if stuff is faulty with a 3 month manufacturing lead time and another 3 months in transit you won't exactly ask for a replacement if you can hash it for a customer that wanted it last month. It is sad to say that we are still in business only because we do military contracts because our commercial lines are only just picking up after a year.

[Kiriakos-GR]

And I thought, that I was the only one working in military contracts..  

At list my own gain was , free testing of the Fluke 87-5 with the calibrator .
( at the ballistic quality control department) 

[VladKEasternTiger]

yes and as I said Italy and Spain bought into the Euro, their economies were too weak to match the other EU countries so that had to pay money to get into it. For me this obliterates of object of the Euro but then money is money.

Yes the UK is in trouble on all fronts, the country is in debt and people are irresponsible and won't even look out for themselves. Yes you can blame banks for giving people loans who could not pay them back but for christs sake anyone should be clever enough to figure out how much debt they can afford. Really I think that it is safe to say that the average Italian is far more savvy about life than the dipstick UK population.

What makes it even worse is manufacturing seems to be non existent all I am seeing is jobs in call center environments its now more service based economy 

The problem is that manufacturing is virtually non existent and most of the UK is service based but then plenty of british companies (That probably are not british anyway) use indian call centres. The strength of a countries truly lies in it's manufacturing power. If europe and the rest of the world stopped trading with the UK how long would we survive ? I work for an engineering/manufacturing company and in reality we make very little and spend a lot of time modifying and correcting chinese, UAE and romanian junk we buy in cheaply, we have no control over quality (and I know that as I'm the one and only goods in QC inspector) and even if stuff is faulty with a 3 month manufacturing lead time and another 3 months in transit you won't exactly ask for a replacement if you can hash it for a customer that wanted it last month. It is sad to say that we are still in business only because we do military contracts because our commercial lines are only just picking up after a year.

So what do you suggest? I totally agree with you, nothing irritates me more than making a call to my bank only to speak to someone from India, dont get me wrong they are very bright people but I like dealing with people in my own country.

Just curious the job you do are the people you work with all trained and self taught or do they have years of university under their belt? It sounds interesting

[Kiriakos-GR]

I had also some experiences  with  Help desks located in India ... Norton Symantec  and even from APC ( UPS systems) ..

I could hardly understand in the phone their English accent ..

The biggest mistake than all , are that we gave all our power to the stock market ..

You get help from people that are unable to help , just because some stock holders needs to see large numbers as return of the investment .. simple as that.

Any wise company , must move away from the stock market as fast as possible.

[VladKEasternTiger]

I had also some experiences  with  Help desks located in India ... Norton Symantec  and even from APC ( UPS systems) ..

I could hardly understand in the phone their English accent ..

The biggest mistake than all , are that we gave all our power to the stock market ..

You get help from people that are unable to help , just because some stock holders needs to see large numbers as return of the investment .. simple as that.

Any wise company , must move away from the stock market as fast as possible.

Mabie for you having difficulities understanding their accent but for me its not a problem, what gets me is I want to speak to someone in my own country who understands the situation not only about the service they deliver. From what ive seen Indians in India speak a good level of English, a lot of the population speak the language, add that to the country churning out thousands or million of engineers every year working abroad so what do we make of this?

[Kiriakos-GR]

so what do we make of this?

We keep the stock holders happy , because they had lower cost ... and you are just an number to them.

Thats why I ring the alarm to all , to become citizens again.

I am against globalism ..  I have not see any emigrant to be far from his home , and be happy.
Did you ask the people of India , if they are happy too, just because some one takes advantage of them temporally ...  

If they are smart to become engineers , how they are so silly to believe that this "advantage" that they have, like to be payed with less , will last for ever , and offer them prosperity and what they are seeking as happiness ??

The Greeks was get paying with 700 - 800 EUR as minimum , and was hopping that some day they will get 1.200  like the Italians do , or 1500-2000 like the Germans do..

And the earth turned upside down , and now they get even less .
Every family in Greece lost their financial control ...  and are unable to handle the monthly expenses ,
like food -  electric Bills - Bank doses - cost of life - fuels ..

With an tremendous effort  I am staying calm ..  my future got stolen ... and I am one hard worker like every one else.

[VladKEasternTiger]

so what do we make of this?

We keep the stock holders happy , because they had lower cost ... and you are just an number to them.

Thats why I ring the alarm to all , to become citizens again.

I am against globalism ..  I have not see any emigrant to be far from his home , and be happy.
Did you ask the people of India , if they are happy too, just because some one takes advantage of them temporally ...  

If they are smart to become engineers , how they are so silly to believe that this "advantage" that they have, like to be payed with less , will last for ever , and offer them prosperity and what they are seeking as happiness ??

The Greeks was get paying with 700 - 800 EUR as minimum , and was hopping that some day they will get 1.200  like the Italians do , or 1500-2000 like the Germans do..

And the earth turned upside down , and now they get even less .
Every family in Greece lost their financial control ...  and are unable to handle the monthly expenses ,
like food -  electric Bills - Bank doses - cost of life - fuels ..

With an tremendous effort  I am staying calm ..  my future got stolen ... and I am one hard worker like every one else.

Yes I agree I am against globalisation aswell for the fact that indeginious cultures and language and terrority will dissapear, look at the native people in India, Mexico, Amazon rainforest and Parts in Africa.

Yes all we are are numbers, my question is how come Turkey is not struggling and greece is? I heard Turkey at least has a strong manufacturing base there

From my point of view when I travel to German, UK, france and any northern european country they tend to look down on Greece, Italy and Spain as lazy southerners who want something for nothing, Im trying to figure where they came to this conclusion

[kc1980]

Just like communism, the idea of globalization is not fundamentally flawed, per se.  The underlying problem is that we, as humans, are not disciplined nor sophisticated enough to implement such systems in the real world with good faith.  Inevitably, our own greed and selfishness ruin any chances of us establishing an egalitarian and equitable society.

Globalization will probably prevail in the long-term, but "globalization" -- as we know it today -- is simply a power-grab initiated by the elite and spun to the masses as a push for economic efficiency.  Think about it -- the large corporate institutions move manufacturing to countries that have a so-called "comparative advantage", but the produced goods are sold at different prices depending on the region in which the goods are sold.  Basically, the corporations -- and shareholders -- profit immensely and the consumers get a small price break at the expense of a weak domestic economy and high unemployment rates.  I may be biased, but I really think that the fancy, over-paid MBA's are foolishly selling out the Western world and brutally exploiting engineers, scientists, and skilled tradesmen.  JMHO.

[Kiriakos-GR]

Yes all we are are numbers, my question is how come Turkey is not struggling and greece is? I heard Turkey at least has a strong manufacturing base there

Thats an 3000 pages of a book as answer .

So I will respond with titles ..

15 Years back or so , the Turkish economy destroyed .
Their  stock market become dust.
International saviors like the Germans, they got all the hotels next to the sea ,
forcing the Turkish to work as waiters.    
Other Germans got the industrial zones ,  and started to assembly  Power tools - refrigerators etc etc ..
Turkey is not an unified country as population, the democratic Government its a puppet show,
an military group behind the scene are still pulling the strings.
This  military command group, they have in mind only the war , and the gain of getting benefits by participating in wars.
They was sold out in to the American interests ( fake wars ) , and was partners of the American army ,
by helping in any dirty work,  and receiving as balance more weapons and privileges and money.
The 95% of the Turkish people has non of education.

Greece and Greeks are the only true "Free"  country, in comparison with the Turkey as citizens,
the 98% of the people are educated, and openly disagree with any dirty work that the Americans plans in the Mediterranean - Balkans - Arabia.
Thats another major issue , why the Greeks called as Terrorist by the Americans.
The Missile who strike the Greek economy , came from the Wall Street,
and all Greeks are aware of it .

The Americans are aware too , that the Greeks are the most crazy uncontrolled freedom fighters,
thats why they tried to blow the country in a economical level..
And I will say .... Nice try  but no Cigar ...  

No one in Greece will ever buy a FLUKE ... or smart weapons ..   thats a promise ..      
  



 

[Kiriakos-GR]

Basically, the corporations -- and shareholders -- profit immensely and the consumers get a small price break at the expense of a weak domestic economy and high unemployment rates.  I may be biased, but I really think that the fancy, over-paid MBA's are foolishly selling out the Western world and brutally exploiting engineers, scientists, and skilled tradesmen.  JMHO.

As long you speak the truth ... be as much Biased you like ..  

No scrip - No fear - All opinion ..  ( I think that Dave stolen this one of some Greek book )