Author Topic: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.  (Read 460390 times)

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Online PlainName

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #1175 on: August 23, 2021, 09:51:23 am »
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I don't really have a problem with this, there are many, many words in the English language that have multiple meanings depending on context.

I gather that the problem is he knows that but is peeved nevertheless. That he's effectively made a rod for his own back and the issue isn't resolvable by anyone is beside the point: it peeves him all the same and here is just telling us that, not asking for confirmation or agreement.
 

Offline DrG

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #1176 on: August 23, 2021, 04:07:35 pm »
... by redefining the words people use you can manipulate the way they think. 

Warning TL;DR ahead.

You made a lot of good points and I want to address that one with a real-world example.

An example comes from the US 2020 election, which, as you probably know was hotly contested. One side promulgated that there was significant cheating and offered up the now infamous “one in a quadrillion” defense. The message, that repeatedly went out to millions of people was that, given the early lead by one candidate, in some states, the chances of that candidate losing the state was less than one in a quadrillion, or 1 in
1,000,000,000,000,000. By extension; that is, having occurred in multiple states, the odds of  the event happening decrease to less than one in a quadrillion to the fourth power.

The message was not just carried all over the media; it actually appeared in an appeal/motion/brief to the SCOTUS – the highest court in the US. Here is the actual brief:  https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/22/22O155/163048/20201208132827887_TX-v-State-ExpedMot 2020-12-07 FINAL.pdf

So, how does this claim work? You can see the whole presentation in Appendix A, but generally, the idea is that given the vote tally with 93% of the vote in (candidate X ahead), the final outcome of candidate Y finishing ahead is so unlikely that there must be an investigation of impropriety (this example is for the state of Georgia).

Consider two situations.

In the first, we take all of the votes in the state of Georgia and put them in some large container. For illustration, assume each vote is represented by a coin (red for one party, blue for another party and green for 3rd party and write in votes – which make up a very small proportion of the total.

AT RANDOM, we draw 93% of the votes. In this case, “at random”, means that each time we draw a coin, every coin in the bin (or remaining in the bin) has an equal probability of being chosen. Under these conditions, and considering the number of votes, to find a big difference between the tallies at 93% counted versus at 100% counted, would, in fact, be reasonably represented by those extreme Z-scores.

In the second, we examine what actually happened. Georgia is a state in the US which is made of counties. These counties can reasonably be viewed historically (looking at the results of the last few elections) as predominately red, predominately blue, or mixed (sometimes called purple) – and to all sorts of degrees.

Counties are of varying sizes. Each county reports their own vote tally and at their own rate. They can also follow their own rules as to when mail-in votes are counted, other kinds of absentee ballots and so on. Because the counties can be so different in size, they are not all finished counting and reporting their votes at the same time; small counties generally finish earlier than large counties and staff size matters and a bunch of other factors. We watch all of this in real time as the chunks of tallies gets reported.  The last 7% does not need to be representative of the first 7% or the first 93%.

Because the real world situation is in the second example and not the first example, the statistical claim is bogus. The reporting of vote tallies is not a random process; it is distinctly and easily understandable to NOT BE RANDOM – so long as we can agree on what the word ‘random’ means.

Like you, I also don’t know if it is getting better or worse, but when you water down the meaning of random processes and you combine the watering down with “alternative truths” and a declining standard of proof, you have something nefarious.  Yes, I know, I am talking about the meaning of one word and its misuse is not the cause of the world’s problems, but I hope others see that the principle is there and it is not trivial.

I also note that such propaganda is not limited to politics and certainly not one side or the other; it is extant, whether it is the crazy conspiracy claim or the free energy machine. Dumb it down and repeat.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2021, 04:20:12 pm by DrG »
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Online TimFox

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #1177 on: August 23, 2021, 05:41:57 pm »
Given the disparity in county populations in most states and the different speed in reporting county returns, sampling bias in the incomplete results is inevitable.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #1178 on: August 23, 2021, 05:54:04 pm »
An example comes from the US 2020 election, which, as you probably know was hotly contested. One side promulgated that there was significant cheating and offered up the now infamous “one in a quadrillion” defense. The message, that repeatedly went out to millions of people was that, given the early lead by one candidate, in some states, the chances of that candidate losing the state was less than one in a quadrillion, or 1 in
1,000,000,000,000,000. By extension; that is, having occurred in multiple states, the odds of  the event happening decrease to less than one in a quadrillion to the fourth power.

That kind of annoyed me because in my mind it was totally obvious and expected the way the results shifted. Due to the pandemic there was a large amount of mail-in voting taking place. We knew from multiple surveys that people who lean conservative were overwhelmingly skeptical of mail in voting and are far more likely to downplay the risks of the pandemic and insist on voting in person where available while people who lean liberal are far more accepting of mail-in voting and far more likely to be concerned about the pandemic and choose to stay home and vote by mail. The obvious result of this situation is that a very large number of conservative leaning votes will come in on election day with a majority of liberal leaning votes trickling in over the following days as the mail-in ballots arrive and are counted. Not coincidentally, this is exactly what we saw happen. The fact that anyone thinks the result is surprising is frankly, baffling to me. Knowing what we know, I really don't understand how anyone could rationally expect otherwise, which makes me think it is largely an emotional belief rather than any sort of logic.
 

Online TimFox

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #1179 on: August 23, 2021, 05:59:04 pm »
The commentators on the TV networks obviously had copious data on the historical politics of individual counties, and would comment on how such-and-such county's results could swing the result.
 

Online Nominal Animal

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #1180 on: August 23, 2021, 06:00:49 pm »
On the positive note, the fact that the way humans think is affected by the way we define terms, is also a good thing: consider education.
If we cannot teach how to think rationally, "magical thinking" and "cargo cults" (in the sense they are defined in e.g. cognitive science, as patterns of thought) would be the norm.  And indeed tends to be, when the majority of the population is not taught to think rationally.

As an example of this (positive manipulation), consider the Socratic method and how examining the definitions of terms helps understand what one knows and does not know.

Unfortunately, the way various groups demand the right to exclusively use and define certain terms (like gender), means intellectual examination of such terms in for example a humanist university setting, is nowadays considered offensive.  To me, that means rational thought itself is becoming "offensive".
Which, indeed, is one of my own pet peeves: the capability of rational thought is one of the few redeeming qualities of humanity.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2021, 06:06:45 pm by Nominal Animal »
 
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Online PlainName

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #1181 on: August 23, 2021, 07:05:04 pm »
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which makes me think it is largely an emotional belief rather than any sort of logic.

Looked to me like it was 100% opportunistic bullshit. Trump even went so far as to demand the counting stopped while he was ahead. That's all it was, no belief or misunderstanding or anything like that, just an opportunistic "Hey, if we stop now I've won". The statistics thing was just bullshit added after the fact to prop up Trump's call.
 

Online TimFox

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #1182 on: August 23, 2021, 07:52:00 pm »
At the time, many commented about football games at halftime, or baseball games in the 7th inning.
 

Offline E-Design

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #1183 on: August 23, 2021, 08:41:45 pm »
..... Knowing what we know, I really don't understand how anyone could rationally expect otherwise, which makes me think it is largely an emotional belief rather than any sort of logic.

I for one, am horrified at the kind of irrational bull$h1t a great number of people in this country will believe. Its embarrassing actually.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2021, 08:43:47 pm by E-Design »
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Offline Bassman59

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #1184 on: August 23, 2021, 09:13:26 pm »
Quote
which makes me think it is largely an emotional belief rather than any sort of logic.

Looked to me like it was 100% opportunistic bullshit. Trump even went so far as to demand the counting stopped while he was ahead. That's all it was, no belief or misunderstanding or anything like that, just an opportunistic "Hey, if we stop now I've won". The statistics thing was just bullshit added after the fact to prop up Trump's call.

It was wholly bullshit, and the continuing nonsense in Maricopa County, Arizona with the "Cyber Ninja" "recount" "audit" is even worse. The latest: the "report" is delayed because -- surprise -- three of the "Cyber Ninjas" are very sick, having apparently contracted COVID-19. Also the Arizona State Senate President refuses to release the records of that company, citing "legislative immunity," even though the "audit" is subject to all sorts of public records laws.

The delay in publishing their "report" is likely because they haven't found any evidence of any fraud.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #1185 on: August 24, 2021, 12:35:28 am »
Quote
which makes me think it is largely an emotional belief rather than any sort of logic.

Looked to me like it was 100% opportunistic bullshit. Trump even went so far as to demand the counting stopped while he was ahead. That's all it was, no belief or misunderstanding or anything like that, just an opportunistic "Hey, if we stop now I've won". The statistics thing was just bullshit added after the fact to prop up Trump's call.

I'm not even talking about him in particular, I mean people in general although given the stuff that comes out of his mouth sometimes I'm not actually sure it classifies as lying, I suspect it is largely a case of someone who perceives a different reality than most people and probably believes a large portion of the things he says. There are large numbers of people who genuinely believe the election was stolen, they are not being opportunistic, they are being emotional, or they are just stupid. Even if we were to hypothetically assume that widespread cheating did take place, the results flipping later in the count is not indicative of that, it is totally expected given the demographics who vote on voting day in person vs those that vote by mail and get counted later.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #1186 on: August 24, 2021, 12:42:56 am »
I for one, am horrified at the kind of irrational bull$h1t a great number of people in this country will believe. Its embarrassing actually.

Me too, but it is not unique to this country, and it is not unique to any particular political leaning. As someone who is largely apolitical I see a great deal of cognitive dissonance and irrational bs on all sides, it can be argued which is worse or who does it more but regardless I see people all over engaging in the same behavior they accuse other people of, and both are equally unwilling to acknowledge that they do it. I read some time back about the Horseshoe Theory and it struck me as being quite accurate. The far left and far right are very much like magnetic poles, they are diametrically opposed and yet viewed in isolation without the other to compare to, they are essentially indistinguishable. Bottom line is humans are tribal animals and morality is relative, the world is far too complex for any individual to wholly comprehend so we take mental shortcuts. For any of us there are any number of things we believe are true but have not directly and personally tested, we read/heard it somewhere from a source we trust and it does not conflict with anything else we know to be true so we accept it as such.
 

Offline RJSV

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #1187 on: August 29, 2021, 08:59:43 pm »
James_s you are right, and e-design: I got some NEWS for you.
  There is a person, around my circle, keeps 'accusing' me, as he has likely been instructed: keeps with the 'Fox News, Hannity viewer', and with the nerve to point finger at me: "You are a Fox / Hannity (fan)... Big fan, big fan..."
   Hell, I don't even have to do, or say ANYTHING. He just keeps with the smears.
  My suspect, is he getting those bogus attack instructions, from talk radio / Thom Hartman most likely. That (baseless) smear job, sounds like another propaganda smear, put forth by an unaccountable radio HACK
 

Offline RJSV

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #1188 on: August 29, 2021, 09:18:16 pm »
...So to clarify my point:
   Trump, and his folks maybe sometimes stupid, but not always, and not so 'comical' and predictable.
But I'm not a Republican, so...
   Modern Democratics, so obviously LIE and SMEAR it's seemingly natural mode.
But I'm not a Democrat, either, so...

A good Green Party member, I feel like (we greens) have to be the police, lording it, over the other two.
And, yes, that attitude earned me a bunch of false smear speach. (Hannity is ok, just a bit irritating, but point is, I don't really watch his show...)
 

Offline IDEngineer

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #1189 on: August 30, 2021, 12:31:57 am »
That practice of labeling people - even (especially!) when you don't know them - is seriously corrosive to society no matter where you are on any socio-political spectrum.

Once I was handing out fundraising flyers. A total stranger walked up to me, having not received nor read a flyer, and screamed "You NAZI!" to my face and stalked away. Seriously? He had precisely zero basis for any comment whatsoever about me, yet somehow he decided that adjective was appropriate. Given the whole antifa "speech is violence" attitude I guess I'm fortunate he didn't punch me.

That sort of snap judgement, based on nothing real yet wildly overreactive, poisons normal discourse. No wonder politics is so dysfunctional these days. The whole point of diplomacy is to talk peacefully with "others". If they're unwilling to even have a discussion but instead just want to "cancel" those who (they think) have a different viewpoint there's no way to even get a conversation started.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #1190 on: August 30, 2021, 05:12:24 am »
That practice of labeling people - even (especially!) when you don't know them - is seriously corrosive to society no matter where you are on any socio-political spectrum.

Yes, I have had different people accuse me of being a right wing conservative and a left wing socialist within the space of the same day, because I dared to disagree with them on something or other they clearly felt very strongly about and in their mind that placed me squarely in the other group. In reality I am neither particularly conservative nor particularly liberal, and frankly I don't really fit in any of the smaller parties either. I'm an independent in any sense of the word.
 

Offline IDEngineer

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #1191 on: August 30, 2021, 03:08:22 pm »
I tell people "I have at least one opinion which will offend everyone".  :-DD  That's the point: We can be different and still co-exist peacefully. Or at least that used to be possible. Live and Let Live is still a good rule, but it requires all parties to follow it.
 
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Offline Bassman59

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #1192 on: August 30, 2021, 04:14:12 pm »
Here's one:

The word is HOBBYIST.

Not "hobbiest."

This is mildly unacceptable from people for whom English is a second (or third) language.

Coming from native speakers this is an unforgivable sin, especially when the computer used to type the word flags it as "not a word." See screenshot, with the non-word highlighted. Hell, my computer autocorrected "hobbiest."

Thank you for your attention to this matter.
 
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Online TimFox

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #1193 on: August 30, 2021, 04:25:11 pm »
That problem probably results from the false equivalence with, for example, “deadly” to “deadliest”, but that is a superlative form of the root word.  Perhaps a badly constructed circuit could be denigrated as “hobbiest”, but that is a totally different meaning from your example.
 

Offline Bassman59

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #1194 on: August 30, 2021, 04:57:17 pm »
That problem probably results from the false equivalence with, for example, “deadly” to “deadliest”, but that is a superlative form of the root word.  Perhaps a badly constructed circuit could be denigrated as “hobbiest”, but that is a totally different meaning from your example.

Tim, you put too much thought into it.

It's simple illiteracy.
 

Offline HobGoblyn

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #1195 on: August 30, 2021, 05:07:44 pm »
HP Online tech support chat who don't read or understand a word I say.

I bought a HP Smart Tank 559 printer from John Lewis in the UK, it was delivered Thursday.  I went to set it up.

The colours all went in fine, the big bottle of black ink initially filled the black tank up, but it wouldn't recognize it had any black ink in, and I had to do this before the printer would move  the bit where I need to I installed the heads into.

Knew it was more than likely faulty, but just in case I'd done something stupid, I contacted HP online chat support.   

I explained how it wouldn't recognize the black ink had been put in and until I had done so, I couldn't install the print heads.

Then followed one of the most frustrating conversations I've had this year.

While talking via chat, I noticed how the previously full black tank was now only showing 2/3 full (can actually see tank, not talking software) and I mentioned I was concerned that black ink was leaking somewhere internally.

There followed (very very short version) him cutting and pasting bits of the manual I told him I had already read  (and quoted to him the parts he then cut and pasted back to me), him wanting me to send a video to prove what I was saying was true, him telling me the reason it wasn't working was because the black ink wasn't  filled  up (ignoring and not understanding that it was full and was slowly emptying somewhere internally), and finally him asking me if I had the print heads installed, and when I explained I can't install them during initial setup until there's ink in the tank, him saying I need to install the print-heads and could I please do so now.

At which point (this was after about an hour of him cutting and pasting bits of the manual and not listening to me at all), I told him "Don't worry. I'm arranging to return it to John Lewis" and I ended the chat.

I then contacted John Lewis (this was about 6:30pm Thursday evening) via their online chat, they asked me for my phone number, phoned me straight away, arranged for a new printer to be delivered the next day, a link to arrange free return courier, and said I had 28 days to return faulty one, whole process took less than 10 mins.

Friday new one turned up, I did exactly the same, only this time it recognized the black ink was in there, worked perfectly, and the black ink tank is still full.

I have just got a message from HP saying "Hello, I did not hear back from you so I will close the case for now. Please contact me again if you still need any help. Have a great day"

I fully understand that someone with excellent tech support knowledge is likely to be doing other things than working answering tech support calls for HP.  I also have no problem (jobs for UK residents aside) talking to overseas call centers and have talked to very helpful and knowledgeable people before. But the above is the short version of a call that got me so wound up, simply because he knew less than a 5 year old would know after reading the quick install sheet, and who didn't seem to understand anything I said.

rant mode off

 

Offline Cubdriver

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #1196 on: August 30, 2021, 05:17:31 pm »
That problem probably results from the false equivalence with, for example, “deadly” to “deadliest”, but that is a superlative form of the root word.  Perhaps a badly constructed circuit could be denigrated as “hobbiest”, but that is a totally different meaning from your example.

Tim, you put too much thought into it.

It's simple illiteracy.

Exactly!  Have you noticed how often people pluralize words with an apostrophe (catastrophe?) s rather than just adding an s?  Of course hobby would pluralize to hobbies (though many would type "hobby's"), so this is a case of mangling what would be a proper plural for use as what should be a different word.

-Pat
If it jams, force it.  If it breaks, you needed a new one anyway...
 
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Online TimFox

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #1197 on: August 30, 2021, 05:18:56 pm »
That problem probably results from the false equivalence with, for example, “deadly” to “deadliest”, but that is a superlative form of the root word.  Perhaps a badly constructed circuit could be denigrated as “hobbiest”, but that is a totally different meaning from your example.

Tim, you put too much thought into it.

It's simple illiteracy.

English spelling is complicated and does not always follow logical rules.  However, there is no excuse for auto-correct inserting non-existent words.
 

Offline Bassman59

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #1198 on: August 30, 2021, 05:50:25 pm »
That problem probably results from the false equivalence with, for example, “deadly” to “deadliest”, but that is a superlative form of the root word.  Perhaps a badly constructed circuit could be denigrated as “hobbiest”, but that is a totally different meaning from your example.

Tim, you put too much thought into it.

It's simple illiteracy.

Exactly!  Have you noticed how often people pluralize words with an apostrophe (catastrophe?) s rather than just adding an s?  Of course hobby would pluralize to hobbies (though many would type "hobby's"), so this is a case of mangling what would be a proper plural for use as what should be a different word.

-Pat

There's even a term for that apostrophe abuse. It's called (in England) the Greengrocer's apostrophe. Of course that means just one greengrocer owns the error. If more than one greengrocer is involved, it's the "greengrocers' apostrophe."

As we all well know, the crux of the biscuit is the apostrophe.
 

Online TimFox

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #1199 on: August 30, 2021, 05:58:01 pm »
A related error, often found in supermarket signs, is to use quotation marks incorrectly for emphasis, as in ' "Fresh" carrots ' (extra space added for clarity), which actually impugns their freshness.
 
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