Author Topic: AI destroying economic system  (Read 24361 times)

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Offline paulca

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Re: AI destroying economic system
« Reply #150 on: September 25, 2026, 09:15:45 am »
Digitising and destroying one copy out of thousands of known ones is one thing.

Digitising a rare instance and destroying it and then claiming it preservation.  Thats the kind of line I think the AI companies are insane enough to cross and where people are worried.

While "unlikely", the sun could clear it's throat tomorrow and erase at one one hemisphere's worth of almost all electronically or magnetically stored data.
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Offline Randy222

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Re: AI destroying economic system
« Reply #151 on: September 25, 2026, 05:17:57 pm »
To me, the idea that 5-10 AI giants would be able to do significant damage by finding books that exist in maybe just ~10-20 of copies seems far-fetched by simple logic. The baseline is, after all, that anyone can buy those same copies and put them in their own shelf, where no one can ever access it again, anyway. Anthropic does not need 100 copies of the same book. It needs 1. So the damage, per book, is the same as any random individual buying the same single book.
That's a very narrow view of the issue.
That one digitized book can now reach millions of people, and the AI model that uses that data can very quickly change the output or provide answers with extreme bias.
And yes, people can buy a same book copy, but the trend has been less and less book sales as everything moves to bits.

It really does have little to do with the content, it is now more about what that trained ML bias and errors spits back when you ask. "Was the Mona Lisa a real person?". Today most say "not really, more like an interpretation of a self reflection". As time goes on, "possibly a relative that was no significant figure of the time".

But to be clear, there's a big diff between just digitizing a book for record, and digitizing to feed a ML model. What exactly would a ML model be learning from books?
 

Offline booscrawl

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Re: AI destroying economic system
« Reply #152 on: September 29, 2026, 01:20:05 am »
What exactly would a ML model be learning from books?

People once asked what the point of educating women was.
 

Online PlainName

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Re: AI destroying economic system
« Reply #153 on: September 29, 2026, 08:12:15 am »
Deleted to maintain order.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2026, 06:48:47 am by PlainName »
 

Offline booscrawl

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Re: AI destroying economic system
« Reply #154 on: September 29, 2026, 08:23:27 pm »
I didn't post an insult!
 

Online PlainName

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Re: AI destroying economic system
« Reply #155 on: September 30, 2026, 06:50:17 am »
I didn't post an insult!

There were two ways of reading that and the one I chose seemed appropriate. But I am willing to accept I was wrong, so removed the accusation.
 
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Online Siwastaja

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Re: AI destroying economic system
« Reply #156 on: September 30, 2026, 07:13:49 am »
I didn't post an insult!

There were two ways of reading that and the one I chose seemed appropriate. But I am willing to accept I was wrong, so removed the accusation.

I did read that as "there have been things before where commonly accepted opinion was later significantly changed" - and that's true.
 

Online PlainName

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Re: AI destroying economic system
« Reply #157 on: September 30, 2026, 08:28:05 am »
There is a difference here, though. Randy wasn't asking why, but what. And I wouldn't mind knowing exactly what the model does learn - is it just statistical anlaysis of word order or is it now something a bit deeper? Does anyone actually know?
 

Offline paulca

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Re: AI destroying economic system
« Reply #158 on: September 30, 2026, 09:10:11 am »
There is a difference here, though. Randy wasn't asking why, but what. And I wouldn't mind knowing exactly what the model does learn - is it just statistical anlaysis of word order or is it now something a bit deeper? Does anyone actually know?

What if it "understands", but not enough to detect fiction over fact.
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Online Siwastaja

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Re: AI destroying economic system
« Reply #159 on: September 30, 2026, 11:30:47 am »
And I wouldn't mind knowing exactly what the model does learn - is it just statistical anlaysis of word order or is it now something a bit deeper? Does anyone actually know?

It can learn "anything" - historical facts, but also how language is used, reasoning patterns/logic. booscrawl's comment seemed lazy but it was a hidden gem; by assuming that these books have probably nothing valuable in them, we would be making the same mistake as assuming women shouldn't vote ("they couldn't vote sensibly anyway").

Giving "every possible book" to AI has a point - LLMs are strong at exactly processing massive amounts of written text and extracting the knowledge in them. Having "the same things" all over and over again, which it already learnt from somewhere else, doesn't hurt it; quite the opposite, fresh sources (same idea, slightly different expression, written by different humans) help with the training and improve the LLM quality overall, plus there might be some hidden gem of information no one ever thought there would be; no human has ever read every book, or even 0.0001% of books, but AI can actually do it.

So the point really is, in worst case it just improves the quality slightly, best case, it has something significant we had forgotten about, or were not unable to connect to the big state of things, but AI can do that.

And to be clear, I am not saying that books from which only 20 copies exist in a handful of antiquaries should be permanently destroyed in the process; if that happens, we need to stop that from happening by exposing those who do it with proof.
 

Online PlainName

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Re: AI destroying economic system
« Reply #160 on: September 30, 2026, 01:28:45 pm »
There is a difference here, though. Randy wasn't asking why, but what. And I wouldn't mind knowing exactly what the model does learn - is it just statistical anlaysis of word order or is it now something a bit deeper? Does anyone actually know?

What if it "understands", but not enough to detect fiction over fact.

We might have to define 'understands'.
 

Online PlainName

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Re: AI destroying economic system
« Reply #161 on: September 30, 2026, 01:39:33 pm »
Quote
by assuming that these books have probably nothing valuable in them

Questioning what they get from a book doesn't assume there is nothing of value. Clearly, they are very valuable, so it is reasonable to ask why that is.

Just as the comment I took as an insult could be read two ways, the questioning could be interpreted in two ways, and I think the assumption that is is similar to the female thing is not the right one.
 

Online PlainName

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Re: AI destroying economic system
« Reply #162 on: September 30, 2026, 01:46:14 pm »
Quote
t can learn "anything" - historical facts, but also how language is used, reasoning patterns/logic.

Indeed, but isn't that just statistics? It detects more than us because it can go through more than us and be tireless about it. But does it understand things any more than just knowing the likelihood of C following B?

If we were to ask some 'computer' (for want of a better word) whether milk should go into tea before or after water, it may return "65% before, 30% after, rest undefinded". And we would think it a calculator. But if it said "Most people asked thought milk would be better added before water. There is a large minority who prefer adding after, and a few that couldn't decide", then we would think it rather more than a mere calculator. ISTM that quite a bit of the AI fuss started (but is not necessarily still the case) because of the conversational style.
 

Offline golden_labels

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Re: AI destroying economic system
« Reply #163 on: October 01, 2026, 01:21:35 am »
I know - I didn't mean that as critique against you, I rarely give any sources myself either. I just disputed the idea that it's "perfect refutation". It isn't that. It's usual chat - speculation - thought-provoking stuff, non-guaranteed correctness - that's all fine. To Analog Kid, it was more han that, because it happened to align with his feelings.
I misinterpreted it, then. Happens. :)

To me, the idea that 5-10 AI giants would be able to do significant damage by finding books that exist in maybe just ~10-20 of copies seems far-fetched by simple logic. The baseline is, after all, that anyone can buy those same copies and put them in their own shelf, where no one can ever access it again, anyway. Anthropic does not need 100 copies of the same book. It needs 1. So the damage, per book, is the same as any random individual buying the same single book. The fact that providers don't share is not many-orders-of-magnitude thing, it's a single order of magnitude thing because there can be roughly ~10 AI giants capable of creating large enough training they need "every book". IOW - if we have 1000 AI companies building large models, we have much bigger questions about energy and resource use.

So that part of the (implied, and not by you) story does not make sense. What would make the pieces click? Gold rush would explain what you are seeing - not tens, not even hundreds, but thousands of relatively small companies, backed by some millions of investor money, working in parallel, everyone trying to do poorly planned actions, when in reality they never can produce a working, large AI model. They could total to emptying supply of semi-rare books, from which some hundreds hard-to-find copies exist.
I need to underline: we’re not talking about popular books. Buy yourself 10 copies of Harry Potter or King’s fiction, turn them into a wallpaper or decorative paper weights, and I don’t mind. We’re talking about titles that are sold at antiquaries. In other words: the rarity distribution is heavily skewed towards the rare books. If you don’t see the scale of the damage, consider that the aforementioned seller sacrificed profits and refused the transaction.

Taking 10–20 copies of rare books out of the market is a massacre. Not because the content is permanently lost to the humanity as a whole, but because the number of books in circulation is greatly reduced. In circulation! This is a tiny portion of the copies in existence, though sometimes the number of decent copies left is also less than this 10–20 estimate.

If that theory is correct, I have no solution nor suggestion to it. Forbidding others than Anthropic and OpenAI and Google from developing AI obviously isn't an option, even though those vendors would very much like it.
A solution? That was not a call for a solution. That was cry of disgust.

If I pee on your doormat, and my friend pees on your doormat, and her entire family pees on your doormat, and you complain your doormat is now wet and stinky, would you also ask “but what can I do? Forbidding others from peeing on my doormat isn’t an option.”? :D
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Offline brucehoult

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Re: AI destroying economic system
« Reply #164 on: October 01, 2026, 03:54:34 am »
Buy yourself 10 copies of Harry Potter or King’s fiction, turn them into a wallpaper or decorative paper weights, and I don’t mind. We’re talking about titles that are sold at antiquaries. In other words: the rarity distribution is heavily skewed towards the rare books. If you don’t see the scale of the damage, consider that the aforementioned seller sacrificed profits and refused the transaction.

Taking 10–20 copies of rare books out of the market is a massacre. Not because the content is permanently lost to the humanity as a whole, but because the number of books in circulation is greatly reduced. In circulation! This is a tiny portion of the copies in existence, though sometimes the number of decent copies left is also less than this 10–20 estimate.

The reason they destroy books is because of legal advice that this helps to protect them from copyright infringement claims.

Mechanically, it's maybe also slightly simpler for high speed scanning to slice off the spine and get a whole bunch of separate leaves, but they can certainly scan them without doing that.

The ancient books that exist in only a single or a few copies DON'T HAVE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS, so the legal advice reason to destroy them doesn't exist. So my assumption would be that they're not. Surely they're not barbarians?
 

Online Siwastaja

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Re: AI destroying economic system
« Reply #165 on: October 01, 2026, 06:54:57 am »
If AI decides to kill all the humans, I'm sure it starts from lawyers ;D
 

Online Analog Kid

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Re: AI destroying economic system
« Reply #166 on: October 01, 2026, 11:21:01 pm »
If AI decides to kill all the humans, I'm sure it starts from lawyers ;D

Really? I'd think that "they" would start with those developers and CEOs, like Bill Gates and Elon Musk, who've expressed concerns about "AI" agents running amok.

Kill the throttlers!
 

Offline golden_labels

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Re: AI destroying economic system
« Reply #167 on: October 02, 2026, 04:15:17 am »
Mechanically, it's maybe also slightly simpler for high speed scanning to slice off the spine and get a whole bunch of separate leaves, but they can certainly scan them without doing that.
I heard these agentic systems solve Millenium Prize problems now. Surely they can be asked to design a method for quickly scanning books without damaging them. Because… they can, can’t they? ;)

The reason they destroy books is because of legal advice that this helps to protect them from copyright infringement claims.

(…snip…)

The ancient books that exist in only a single or a few copies DON'T HAVE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS, so the legal advice reason to destroy them doesn't exist. So my assumption would be that they're not. Surely they're not barbarians?
Earlier, first making sure to give a deep bow to Ockham, I suggested this option. If that was, just hypothetically, the explanation, would book’s age counter that idea?

I don’t think so. They’d have to determine legal status of each single book they process. That costs money and time, brings no profit. Intellectual property is also a nightmarish minefield, so they’d had to take a risk of a mistake with each evaluation. Again, for no profit. Compared to this, destroying all physical copies is simply cheaper. It doesn’t give automatic protection from copyright claims. But it gives a good argument at the court.


Two related points

That spines got removed is itself not a big deal. Books can be bound back later. Doing so indiscriminately is a bit disgusting, but in the end we may assume most of the books are paperbacks. These could even benefit from rebinding. The criticism is not about spine removal.

That a book is from an antiquary or is rare in circulation doesn’t imply an ancient book. Don’t underestimate how many titles are published. From that only the most popular ones are produced in large numbers. For most it’s a run of 1,000–10,000 copies. Niche publications are below that. Additional factors may also come into play, like the country of origin or a special status. So this may apply even to books that are merely 30–50 years old. Not only copyright holds, but their authors are still alive.
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Offline brucehoult

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Re: AI destroying economic system
« Reply #168 on: October 02, 2026, 05:01:54 am »
Numerically I'd bet most of the newish things that exist in just a couple of copies would be Masters' and PHd theses from pre Latex/PDF days.

Scanning them would probably be a large increase in their accessibility, and universities would thank you for not having to physically store them — and save them the trouble of microfiching (does this even still exist) or scanning them themselves. As long as they got a copy of the PDF.
 

Offline golden_labels

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Re: AI destroying economic system
« Reply #169 on: October 02, 2026, 06:16:55 am »
Absolutely! Preservation? A mere format change? Making it available to more people? Unless the physical form was of value, I would have no qualms about removing the spine and scanning. But I would not want to destroy the book afterwards, if possible.

And the entire point here is that the books are simply annihilated when the scan is complete.

This is also why “a person buying and keeping it” analogy doesn’t hold. The person may sell the books later. One may share them. The book may be stolen,(1) or lost and found. After owner’s death all the books have a chance to return to circulation. People who spent some effort on acquiring a book are in my experience not willing to simply put them in a dumpster, so the books are achived. Sure, I myself own a small collection of books. Yes, they are taken out of the market right now. But trusted friends can borrow most of them from me. Only a few titles are exceptions. Ask me for an excerpt and I’ll share it. If not that I don’t have anything of the right value, I’d participate in exchange points. As long as I breathe I’ll protect them from being simply discarded. And when I stop breathing all the books are to be sold or offered to a library.


(1) Ok, I went too far: in 2020s a book thief sounds like a mythical figure. Somewhere between dragons and unicorns. Unless they also qualify as an art thief. ;)
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Offline nctnico

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Re: AI destroying economic system
« Reply #170 on: October 02, 2026, 08:35:36 pm »
Numerically I'd bet most of the newish things that exist in just a couple of copies would be Masters' and PHd theses from pre Latex/PDF days.
It is probably better to burn these before scanning. Those theses are typically riddled with errors and bad assumptions.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline golden_labels

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Re: AI destroying economic system
« Reply #171 on: October 02, 2026, 09:30:02 pm »
It is probably better to burn these before scanning. Those theses are typically riddled with errors and bad assumptions.
That was a quick judgement! Should we also burn all historical sources, because they’re not only typically riddled with errors and bad assumptions, but shamelessly lying?

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Offline TimFox

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Re: AI destroying economic system
« Reply #172 on: October 02, 2026, 09:45:40 pm »
There is a difference here, though. Randy wasn't asking why, but what. And I wouldn't mind knowing exactly what the model does learn - is it just statistical anlaysis of word order or is it now something a bit deeper? Does anyone actually know?

What if it "understands", but not enough to detect fiction over fact.

Note that a lot of books, especially those published maybe 50 years ago, do not explicitly state that they are "fiction".
This was a minor plot point in the apocalyptic science-fiction novel A Canticle for Leibowitz (W M Miller, 1959) where a monastery has been preserving books in barrels to keep them from the book-burners.
A later expedition to read the "book-legged" books confuses R.U.R., the 1920 science-fiction play by the Czech writer Karel Čapek, with an historical text.
 

Offline Randy222

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Re: AI destroying economic system
« Reply #173 on: October 02, 2026, 11:46:36 pm »

Note that a lot of books, especially those published maybe 50 years ago, do not explicitly state that they are "fiction".
This was a minor plot point in the apocalyptic science-fiction novel A Canticle for Leibowitz (W M Miller, 1959) where a monastery has been preserving books in barrels to keep them from the book-burners.
A later expedition to read the "book-legged" books confuses R.U.R., the 1920 science-fiction play by the Czech writer Karel Čapek, with an historical text.
Destroying books and replace them as a re-write, is not fiction. Like most things upon us, only a matter of time, not if.
Even w/o books, content that originates and publishes in the digital realm will also morph over time, a word here, a few words there.

https://www.angel.com/movies/disciples-in-the-moonlight
 

Offline golden_labels

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Re: AI destroying economic system
« Reply #174 on: October 03, 2026, 10:25:14 am »
Indeed, but isn't that just statistics? It detects more than us because it can go through more than us and be tireless about it. But does it understand things any more than just knowing the likelihood of C following B?
You’re closing yourself the path to answering the question by describing these things as binary options that exclude each other. They do not. There is even little reason to think that humans are anything but sophisticated statistical machinery.

The important distinction is that there are different kinds of statistical machinery. They’re not better or worse, just different. For example early LLMs already exceeded human capability in quick arithmetics (when working with numbers directly). Statistics were created to overcome limitations of human brain which can’t directly pick up relevant information from sets of data. It’s a matter of fitness for the purpose, not any generic, absolute value.

Neither LLMs nor any other statistical solutions created so far do understand in the human sense. All the non-textual input humans have, all the evolution-imposed drives, all life experiences, the serf-perception, all the social interactions — these are inherent components of human-style understanding. Whichever brain operation model we accept and how little we still know about its functions, we already know that thinking is based on a large number of interconnected and circular processes. All this is completely missing from what algorithms do now. The closest we got is agentic LLMs talking to each other and destroying things. So something like Greek philosophers, except each of them is a babbling kid with superhuman strength they can’t control.

But as with all anthropomorphisation used by AI researchers, the word has a more fuzzy meaning. LLMs can understand in more abstract sense of the word. They are stochastic parrots. But while fully accurate, this phrase is a bit snide reply to attributing AI models human-like features. It should not be taken too far beyond that, out of context. They are glorified Markov generators, yes, but no longer just Markov generators. With data so enormous, the statistical models hold not only linguistic rules. The purely textual matter at such a large scale contains patterns that represent knowledge or relationships between concepts. LLMs pick these up too and can reproduce them.

In other words: LLMs can’t understand as humans do, but since learning data captured human understanding, models can replicate that.. With no metamodel of themselves, they can’t evaluate information directly — that’s obvious. But they also process the partial output and it must map to something together with the prompt. An LLM may start generating a fairytale asked about a real event, but it means that at some point both the fairytale and the expectation of a real event will be processed together and this is where the model may fall into a path that reproduces understanding of the conflict between the two. Which of course doesn’t automatically imply it will stop or correct itself. This is not what I wanted to say. After all… it’s a stochastic parrot, not a human. It doesn’t fear that other LLMs will think badly of it because it makes mistakes. :)


Note that a lot of books, especially those published maybe 50 years ago, do not explicitly state that they are "fiction".
This was a minor plot point in the apocalyptic science-fiction novel A Canticle for Leibowitz (W M Miller, 1959) where a monastery has been preserving books in barrels to keep them from the book-burners.
A later expedition to read the "book-legged" books confuses R.U.R., the 1920 science-fiction play by the Czech writer Karel Čapek, with an historical text.
Which is a very human behavior. With the exception of historians, the image of history we all hold is almost entirely built on fiction. Unlike LLMs we perceive ourselves and our own thinking process, and sometimes have incentives to correct ourselves, so critical thinking may kick in and we take additional, conscious effort to verify information. But that’s the only difference.
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