Take your pick: Free Energy is Valid or is Not Valid?

[Chet]

You could do a zillion simulations but if no hardware is assembled to prove your ideas it will all be a supreme waste of time.

Beep repaired!

[Xena E]

It is true overunity that can't possibly happen.

1.9 to 1 > > > Read the log file after running it.

Simulation, no, no, NO!

You could do a zillion simulations but if no hardware is assembled to prove your ideas it will all be a supreme waste of time.

Practical demonstration, yes. That's what Chet needs to do.

He will learn something valuable,  it will be to move on with his life.

What do you gain from this self generated humiliation Chet? Have you learned how to monetise absurdity?

Voltage enlargement!! Good God where did that come from?

Actually he said:

...voltage enlargement anywhere in the circuit in addition to preserving current with reduced resistance...

Any fool knows if you enlarge your voltage and also preserve your current you are creating overunity.

Or perhaps it takes a fool of the highest order to realise that.
😉

Voltage enlargement grows organically from buncombe.

Oh wouldn't it be just delightful if we found out that Chet actually came from North Carolina!

[SteveThackery]

Practical demonstration, yes. That's what Chet needs to do.

He will learn something valuable...

Indeed. We've been telling him this since he arrived here, to no avail.  Why can he not understand that a simulator is an imperfect model of a real-world system, and thus its behaviour cannot be relied upon as a true reflection of what would happen in the real world? This is so blindingly obvious.

[Chet]

Practical demonstration, yes. That's what Chet needs to do.

He will learn something valuable...

Indeed. We've been telling him this since he arrived here, to no avail.  Why can he not understand that a simulator is an imperfect model of a real-world system, and thus its behaviour cannot be relied upon as a true reflection of what would happen in the real world? This is so blindingly obvious.

The first citation in my paper is a paper on the Indian Power Grid in which he doesn't know where the anomalous energy is coming from since that section of the power grid has taken their generators offline.

Off course, I immediately knew the answer the instant I read that since I often begin a simulation with a power level so low that nothing should occur if it were a normal situation. Yet, it's just that precondition which encourages anamolies since the input power won't get in the way of the anamoly.

[Xena E]

I'd be interested to read your paper but I'm directed to a page that tells me that it isn't available in my area.

However power grid anomalies as you briefly outline here can be caused by:
•Heavy industry motors spooling down.
•Undocumented feeds and system interlinks.

A stand alone demonstration is the only thing that can persuade  a change in accepted thinking. If you have truly made a discovery... Oh look up there there's a flying pig!... sorry... monetise it for your own profit, and stop making pointless non scientific, word salad posts detailing your incredible research to the peanut gallery in engineering fora.

Prove us unequivocally wrong and I'll eat your shorts.

[Electrodynamic]

Practical demonstration, yes. That's what Chet needs to do.

He will learn something valuable...

Indeed. We've been telling him this since he arrived here, to no avail.  Why can he not understand that a simulator is an imperfect model of a real-world system, and thus its behaviour cannot be relied upon as a true reflection of what would happen in the real world? This is so blindingly obvious.

The first citation in my paper is a paper on the Indian Power Grid in which he doesn't know where the anomalous energy is coming from since that section of the power grid has taken their generators offline.

Off course, I immediately knew the answer the instant I read that since I often begin a simulation with a power level so low that nothing should occur if it were a normal situation. Yet, it's just that precondition which encourages anamolies since the input power won't get in the way of the anamoly.

The grid anomaly is pretty easy to explain and I built my own AC micro grid to research transient effects.

In fact we could have any number of different oscillations riding on the AC power. For example, I was switching run capacitors to vary the reactive current to the rotor of an AC induction generator. This produced an impulse which moved through the system on the AC power. Normally it's a dampened oscillation however if the capacitor switching was timed to the round trip time of the impulse in the grid system the oscillation magnitude would increase.

The effect is pretty easy to understand. The stator receives extra reactive current which induces the rotor. The rotor then induces the stator applied to the grid usually on the next half cycle which travels down line. Fast transients can move within a half cycle where slow transients are incremental within each full cycle. A larger slow wave overlapping many smaller ones.

I took my work experience in a 250MW plant and the reason this is a problem is because the steam or gas turbine AC generators are locked in phase with the grid AC power. It's not the AC generation side which gets us it's the control loop/valve lag plus the inertia of the turbine and generator. These are massive systems and don't handle any change very well which is why they can trip. My instructor said he saw an operator connect a big AC generator to the grid out of sync and it snapped the 12" diameter input shaft to the generator like a twig and shook the whole building.

This is why most simulations are basically useless when trying to simulate real world conditions. So this anomaly has a simple explanation and I have seen it before.

[Chet]

I'd be interested to read your paper but I'm directed to a page that tells me that it isn't available in my area.

However power grid anomalies as you briefly outline here can be caused by:
•Heavy industry motors spooling down.
•Undocumented feeds and system interlinks.

A stand alone demonstration is the only thing that can persuade  a change in accepted thinking. If you have truly made a discovery... Oh look up there there's a flying pig!... sorry... monetise it for your own profit, and stop making pointless non scientific, word salad posts detailing your incredible research to the peanut gallery in engineering fora.

Prove us unequivocally wrong and I'll eat your shorts.

Then, you'll make a "short salad" out of my lengthy "word salad"? 

[paul cotter]

Word salad indeed, replete with more blatant errors than I can count. This is a hopeless case as Chet will not adopt anything we say. He is destined to live the rest of his life in confusion and failure.

[paul cotter]

I glanced at that paper concerning problems on the Indian grid, which our colleague Xena E could not access. There is absolutely nothing exceptional in it, it is merely an analysis of stability problems with their grid, the sort of work power engineers have been doing for multiple decades. Certainly no hint of free energy, overunity or a free lunch.

[default0.0player]

overunity is not valid, energy harvesting is valid

[Chet]

overunity is not valid, energy harvesting is valid

I wouldn't say it's invalid. I'd say it's incomplete. Offering one possibility for where it comes from does not automatically make that the last word on answering where does it come from....but it's a start since it's visceral and in our face. The subtle is far easier to overlook since it can't be guaranteed a replication on demand without a lot of patience 'till we know better how to make it replicable. Meanwhile, it can only be imagined in between any one of its unannounced, chance encounters.

[Chet]

The problem is that it takes more energy, due to the inevitable losses, to drive that charge around and around than can be had from the generator output.

🔄 4. The conjugate-variable rule (the key takeaway)
Parametric pumping only works when you modulate the parameter at the moment when the energy is entirely in the variable conjugate to that parameter.

• Inductor: pump at current peaks
• Capacitor: pump at voltage peaks

This is why parametric pumping is phase‑sensitive and why it looks like “energy appears from nowhere” when done correctly.

5. Why this looks like energy creation
Because the system is not being driven by a voltage or current source.
It is being driven by a time‑varying parameter.
A time‑varying parameter can inject energy without violating conservation laws.
This is the same principle behind:

• a child pumping a swing
• a parametric amplifier
• a flux‑modulated inductor
• your rotary capacitor engine

In all cases, the “pump” is not a force but a modulation of a system parameter.

[paul cotter]

Parametric variation in an active circuit consumes energy and any extra output will be less than the inputted energy, due to inevitable losses. What the hell is "your rotary capacitor engine"? 

[TimFox]

I assume it’s a variable capacitor rotating on a motor-driven shaft, where the external motor supplies the needed power.

[Chet]

Parametric variation in an active circuit consumes energy and any extra output will be less than the inputted energy, due to inevitable losses.

What does it take to move a charge through a field? Does it take more energy?

What the hell is "your rotary capacitor engine"?

Hell was not invoked nor harmed in the making of this post:

[Xena E]

So what are you claiming that this video demonstrates?

Rotary (mechanical) capacitive converters are an interesting effect but a very inefficient.

Its analogous to an induction generator (which is a practical device).

They even admit that the charge "leaks away" if the output is put under load or through imperfect insulators! ... that is with the motor still inputting significant power.

What this illustrates, if the video creator is claiming overunity, is the psychological phenomenon where individuals with low ability overestimate their competence and their inability to understand simple physical phenomenon.

Trumps patent cited was from the 1970s, if it were of any practical use we'd all have one of those in the basement.

[paul cotter]

I hope you did not watch all of that video, Xena? Life is too short to be wasting one's time on such rubbish. In case you do not know, this is Eric P Dollard, a misanthrope much beloved by those who attach divine qualities to Tesla. While he has a basic understanding of EE, he comes out with a heap of nonsense such as the sun is hollow, the sun cannot be seen from space and of course the ever present longitudinal waves. The strange aspect of this hero worship is that Dollard discounts the idea of free energy/overunity!!  Where's my meth pipe, anyone seen it?

[Xena E]

Absolutely Paul.
The set up was fake, though in principle the effect could be demonstrated... the capacitor would have to have been a differential type for a start.

I was more enthralled by the test equipment they were using! (I have a soft spot for the old Simpson 260.)

I'll give anything a fair go, but as soon as they got as far as mad tangoman uncles patent I'd seen enough!

And yeah, Dollard is known to me for what he is.

I'm no fan of Tesla in any respect, but I'm sure that in his younger days when he was actually trying to contribute to electrical engineering knowledge, he would have distanced himself from the likes of Chet and all of his brain fucked heros.

[Electrodynamic]

Xena E

The set up was fake, though in principle the effect could be demonstrated... the capacitor would have to have been a differential type for a start.

The setup was real they just didn't include the energy to drive the motor moving the charged plates. It's funny because the device is really no different than any other electrostatic generator since the 1800's. This a very common setup for electrostatic motors and generators.

The moving charged plate repels like charges and attracts opposite charges. The moving plate is attracted on exit producing back drag just like any other generator. Dollard is a quack imo.

I'm no fan of Tesla in any respect, but I'm sure that in his younger days when he was actually trying to contribute to electrical engineering knowledge

By contributing do you mean inventing the AC induction motor and polyphase system which is the standard globally?. Tesla also pioneered early radio transmission methods with patents predating those of Guglielmo Marconi.

"Guglielmo Marconi used several of Nikola Tesla's patents and ideas in his development of radio technology, leading to a significant legal battle over the invention's credit. Ultimately, in 1943, the U.S. Supreme Court upheld Tesla's patents, recognizing him as the true inventor of radio"

I think it's bullshit that Nikola Tesla who contributed so much to electrical engineering is often trivialized. Any fool can pretend to understand what someone else has already done after the fact. However to invent something new and unique is an entirely different story. As I like to say, WTF have you done which could possibly compare to inventing the AC induction motor/polyphase system and radio?.

[RoGeorge]

The arguing in this thread reminds of the first minutes from the "Around The World In 80 Days (2004)" movie:  https://youtube.com/watch?v=vOQ_gYFREYw, the scenes from the Royal Academy of Science. 

[SteveThackery]

I don't think anyone would reasonably deny that Tesla invented induction motors and polyphase transmission. Possibly the radio stuff as well: I don't know enough about that.  He was brilliant.

He was also profoundly wrong about several other claims, and indulged himself in bullshitting and gross exaggeration. He had this weird blind spot when it came to damped systems. He thought he could demolish a building just by vibrating it with a mechanical "shaker" about the size of a shoe box, seemingly unaware of the inevitable mechanical losses. Be thought he could transmit energy around the world losslessly.

He lied, too. He claimed he could assemble a machine in his head, run it, and then dismantle it and examine the parts for wear!  He claimed he possessed top secret equipment in the basement of the hotel where he lived, but after his death it turned out to be a collection of normal laboratory tools.

Like so many brilliant people: Newton and Einstein come to mind, as well as a few mathematicians I've forgotten the names of, he made his biggest breakthroughs when he was still a young man - 20s and early 30s. I think he struggled after that with coming to terms that his best was behind him. He seemingly felt the need to make bigger and more extraordinary claims in order to keep the spotlight on him.

So I think it is reasonable to acknowledge his exceptional contributions to power generation, transmission, electrical machines and radio, and it is reasonable to be sceptical to the point of rejection about some of his more extraordinary claims. He wasn't a fraud, and he wasn't a magician - he was somewhere between.

[Xena E]

I don't think anyone would reasonably deny that Tesla invented induction motors and polyphase transmission. Possibly the radio stuff as well: I don't know enough about that.  He was brilliant....

...So I think it is reasonable to acknowledge his exceptional contributions to power generation, transmission, electrical machines and radio, and it is reasonable to be sceptical to the point of rejection about some of his more extraordinary claims. He wasn't a fraud, and he wasn't a magician - he was somewhere between.

Tesla coincidentally invented the practical polyphase generator and motor however this was a two phase system that needed four wire transmission, he also developed a three phase system which was more stable, but this needed six transmission lines.

What was eventually adopted worldwide was first demonstrated in Germany by Mikhail Dolivo-Dobrovolsky for AEG in 1891 that transmitted power on a three wire three phase system.

Undoubtedly Tesla was a clever man but what we have today little resemble his developments, and most of his legend is fallacy, his business practices questionable, in later life, fraudulent.

An excellent You Tube channel is presented by physicist Kathy Joseph. She has touched on the subject of the Tesla contribution to electrical generation and distribution a few times and always makes her sources of research available to those who are interested in facts. There are others that are more in depth but this outlines some of the misconceptions.



If anyone wants a hero to worship, a better person to admire for their achievements would be Michael Faraday.

I'm not going to rise to the comments and insults of @Electrodynamic and his claims of bullshit as that's a little like the pot calling the kettle black, and too often they resort to ridiculous straw man arguments to make some random assertions.

[paul cotter]

Indeed, Faraday. For a man with little education he achieved an incredible amount of ground breaking research.

[RoGeorge]

Does the video mentions the link between Tesla and Trump? 

[Xena E]

Does the video mentions the link between Tesla and Trump? 

Not Kathy Joseph's video no.

This is where that patent is mentioned, the video embedded in this fringe lunatic post.

Beware your sanity.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/take-your-pick-free-energy-is-valid-or-is-not-valid/msg6241799/#msg6241799