TL866II+ - what to select to program PALCE22V10H ?

[eda8039]

I have a new TL866II+  and some Lattice PALCE22V10H chips.   I See that the IC select menu have GAL22V10's  B, C, D.   Which one is most compatible ?   Should I use the lowest possible programming voltage selection ?

THanks

[xjordanx]

I have the same programmer, and I have some of the same chips.

I can tell you with a fair degree of confidence that any programmer you can get, even OLD (80s) that's under $200-$300 on eBay, can NOT program PALCE devices. Those are electrically erasable and to this day AMD and Lattice NEVER published the programming / erase algorithm. It's a closely guarded secret only shared with their NDA signed business partners (like XL-tech or BK Precision).

I am annoyed as you are, because I thought a generic GAL/PAL programmer could do it, but come to find out after eagerly pulling and collecting the chips out of old telco gear, unless I'm also willing to setup a DOS computer with 8-bit ISA card (dedicated to the programmer) and spend a few hundred dollars on the used programmer that might not even work...

Honestly, you're better off buying some of the cheap GAL22V10s still in production by Atmel/Microchip because the TL-866 II+ DOES work with those. And heck, the parts are only a dollar or two each.

[Beta_vulgaris]

I have the same programmer, and I have some of the same chips.

I can tell you with a fair degree of confidence that any programmer you can get, even OLD (80s) that's under $200-$300 on eBay, can NOT program PALCE devices. Those are electrically erasable and to this day AMD and Lattice NEVER published the programming / erase algorithm. It's a closely guarded secret only shared with their NDA signed business partners (like XL-tech or BK Precision).

I am annoyed as you are, because I thought a generic GAL/PAL programmer could do it, but come to find out after eagerly pulling and collecting the chips out of old telco gear, unless I'm also willing to setup a DOS computer with 8-bit ISA card (dedicated to the programmer) and spend a few hundred dollars on the used programmer that might not even work...

Honestly, you're better off buying some of the cheap GAL22V10s still in production by Atmel/Microchip because the TL-866 II+ DOES work with those. And heck, the parts are only a dollar or two each.

PALCE programming differs from GAL/Bipolar PAL, the only similarity is that all of them utilize some sort of "High-Voltage PGMMODE".

[YetAnotherTechie]

Programmable Logic Devices (PLD) Programming Algorithm Preservation

I'm curious about this part of your signature, could you please elaborate?

[Beta_vulgaris]

Programmable Logic Devices (PLD) Programming Algorithm Preservation

I'm curious about this part of your signature, could you please elaborate?

For most PLDs, the programming algorithms, even programming pinout information, are unavailable to end-users. Only the large programmer manufacturers can be provided with the programming information. Their obsolete programmers are becoming more difficult to be acquired. So, rather than while our descendents observating the old devices (often more and more durable and tolerant than today's) to decay during the longevity of geological chronology, we can make something valuable and meaningful - preserve their algorithms to prolong the contents inside.

[ale500]

I can program PALCEs, have sadly none, I have a logic analyzer too, could do some trace capture. I wonder if aliexpresses PALCEs are any good... I socked on GALs already, aliexpress GALs

[Beta_vulgaris]

I can program PALCEs, have sadly none, I have a logic analyzer too, could do some trace capture. I wonder if aliexpresses PALCEs are any good... I socked on GALs already, aliexpress GALs

Welcomed to preserve the algorithms!

[ale500]

I bought some PALCE22V10H, I'll try with my programmer and see how it goes. I suppose GALAsm can generate a fuse map for it, i.e. it is compatible with GAL22V10 ? Or will I have to use WINCupl ?

[Beta_vulgaris]

I bought some PALCE22V10H, I'll try with my programmer and see how it goes. I suppose GALAsm can generate a fuse map for it, i.e. it is compatible with GAL22V10 ? Or will I have to use WINCupl ?

Fusemaps are the same.

[ale500]

PALCEs arrived yesterday, I made a small rig to access the pins and started by reading the already programmed fuse map. Uses 8 V on PIN 2 (at least) to read. Needs loads of work but it is doable.

[Beta_vulgaris]

PALCEs arrived yesterday, I made a small rig to access the pins and started by reading the already programmed fuse map. Uses 8 V on PIN 2 (at least) to read. Needs loads of work but it is doable.

Programming pinout just like the GAL?

[ale500]

I see some toggling  on pins 13..22 when on read.

Programming requires 9 V on several pins:

CH1 PIN  1 yellow, clock, zooming shows a different picture: a data signal with an "embedded clock" (tek0000)
CH2 PIN  2 cyan    9 V
CH3 PIN  5 Violette, some kind of command/data signal
CH4 PIN  4 green   9 V

I have to do some more captures to see the other pins, more to come.

[Beta_vulgaris]

I see some toggling  on pins 13..22 when on read.

Programming requires 9 V on several pins:

CH1 PIN  1 yellow, clock, zooming shows a different picture: a data signal with an "embedded clock" (tek0000)
CH2 PIN  2 cyan    9 V
CH3 PIN  5 Violette, some kind of command/data signal
CH4 PIN  4 green   9 V

I have to do some more captures to see the other pins, more to come.

Bipolar RZ code on pin 1?

[Anthem]

This is strange. The PDF files for the PALCE22V10 from ATMEL and Lattice both say respectively:

"Programming and Erasing
The PALCE22V10 can be programmed on standard
logic programmers. It also may be erased to reset a previously configured device back to its virgin state.
Erasure is automatically performed by the programming hardware. No special erase operation is required"

"Programming and Erasing
The PALCE22V10 can be programmed on standard logic programmers. It also may be erased to
reset a previously configured device back to its unprogrammed state. Erasure is automatically
performed by the programming hardware. No special erase operation is required"

I see the GALEP-4 PLD programmer has PALCE22V10 listed as being programmable by it.  Since I have the TL8866ii+ looks like I'll go for the GAL22V10. Thanks for all the insights to all.

[olin]

Looking at ale500 screens: it seems the PIN1 (CLK) &PIN2 (SDIN) are shorted , therefore the two pins 'fight' between each other giving the mid voltage level if one pin is high and the other pin is low (and low if both pins are low or high when both pins are high). My interpretation is the tek000 image shows identification command 58 (0b111010) sent as LSB first (010111). I might be wrong of course.

If anybody has more scoped screens or other info please post. I'm interested in to know the programming algorithm for PALCE as well.

[olin]

To verify my assumption about the shorted pins I created a pulse train on Arduino and checked them on my scope. The probes are connected to the CLK and SDIN pins via 470 Ohm resistor, so that when I shorted the pins and scoped them I did not damage my Arduino. The result seen on the first image corresponds to the expected state where CLK and SDIN pins are scoped un-shorted. The result seen on the second image shows the probe on Channel 1 (Yellow trace) touching both CLK and SDI pins at the same time (pins are shorted) and the resulting trace looks quite like on ale500 screens.

BTW. I tried the Identify command on my PALCE16V8 using 9.25V as VPP on Pin 3, but unfortunately I was not able to read anything back on data pins 12-19 (I did set Mode pins 4-7 to Input-Line_addressing mode HLLL).

[olin]

I did another test on 2 different PALCE16V8 ICs and I got a consistent result on Pin 12 that toggles based on the clock and the identify command. The Yellow trace is CLK, Green trace is SDIN, Blue trace is Pin 12. I tried both chips I have and the response on Pin 12 was the same - so it is not a coincidence. When I did not set VPP 9.25 on pin 3 then the Pin 12 stayed high (on Arduino it is set as INPUT_PULLUP) - so it looks the IC is responding to a programming command.
BTW. Both chips were bough from non reliable source so they are most likely fake and it is possible they are produced in the same factory.

[bson]

A bit tangential to the OP, but surely it can't be that hard to reverse engineer the erase magic...