EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[ez24]

On quiescent current, back in 1980s I designed a product that did not have a true off button but rather, would go to sleep, consuming microamps.  It ran on four AA cells.  I was worried that this current consumption would shorten the battery life.  To my surprise I found documentation from Duracell that said consumption of tiny amount of current actually lengthened the battery life than not using it at all!  Did not dig into the reason why and quick search now shows nothing.

My gut feeling is that this is true.  Some of our friends should test this theory.

[Fungus]

On quiescent current, back in 1980s I designed a product that did not have a true off button but rather, would go to sleep, consuming microamps.  It ran on four AA cells.  I was worried that this current consumption would shorten the battery life.  To my surprise I found documentation from Duracell that said consumption of tiny amount of current actually lengthened the battery life than not using it at all!  Did not dig into the reason why and quick search now shows nothing.

Could be.

The self-discharge rate is generally higher than a few dozen microamps. Maybe drawing a a tiny amount of current can help the internal chemistry stay in good shape.

OTOH: This isn't the 1980s any more and shelf lives of batteries have gone up since then.

[Brumby]

In engineering terms, I agree any information tended is likely to be inconclusive - but it might well be the sort of thing that could click with the public.  And that's the thing ... the success or otherwise of the Batteroo sleeve will not come from a datasheet - it will come from the perception from the people who will buy them.  Engineers will be able to explain that result.

But will they? There's a discussion been going on elsewhere on the board about bad writing in science. I'm sorry to say that a lot, possibly the majority, of scientists and engineers are lousy at communicating science and engineering to the general public. We make a lot of assumptions and tend to come at a topic with baggage.

You have made an assumption in my statement.  It was not an unreasonable assumption and with it, you are quite right, of course.  Perhaps I should have added one more sentence which better sets out my thoughts ....

Engineers will be able to explain that result.  Whether they will be able to explain it to the understanding and satisfaction to a broad audience is another thing.


The fact that we have had this little exchange is an example of just the sort of issues that can crop up in communication.  Trivial differences in understanding at the start of a discussion point can lead to dramatic chasms and wholesale confusion.  The "Butterfly Effect" is exceptionally strong in the field of communication.

When assumed knowledge, individual experience and personal bias are included - it's no wonder communication becomes a challenge.  Add to that agendas, vested interests and self-defence and it's a wonder we get anywhere in a discussion.

Then there's my favourite factor - the communication medium.  From TV, radio, conferences, small group discussions and one-on-one to written correspondence and the now familiar social media and forum platforms, there are pros and cons.

If we just take a forum such as this, then we are having semi real-time conversations, but without the body language cues and vocal intonation of a face to face conversation.  The information that is not communicated because of this can be significant - and it can be critical to the path a discussion takes.  I liken it to trying to appreciate opera via teletype.


Yes, engineers will be able to explain Batteroo results - but they may have a problem doing so effectively to the general public.

[EEVblog]

My gut feeling is that this is true.  Some of our friends should test this theory.

Testing that practically takes years.

[Someone]

My gut feeling is that this is true.  Some of our friends should test this theory.

Testing that practically takes years.

It can be done in a few months if you pre discharge cells to known points, then you can get data across the entire life. But it requires huge numbers of cells to get reliable results multiplied by the time compression factor you want to achieve.

[Brumby]

Considering the age and evolution of the battery industry, it would not seem unreasonable to believe that tests like these have has been done - and on more than one occasion.  The Duracell reference is one I would like to see - and perhaps any other examples, if they are anywhere to be found.

[ez24]

My gut feeling is that this is true.  Some of our friends should test this theory.

Testing that practically takes years.

I know so someone should start now so we will still be alive when the results come in   

I think a very low current keeps the electrons aligned and in order.  If no current they get dis-organized and loose their purpose in life.
Like raising children.  So someone should do a study on the moral values of electrons.

I wonder if anyone has tried to contact the "guy" from the US and offered him a $1,000 for a set?  Now we have an Italian, Brit, Aussie (hope this is not a bad term), and a Yank.  This has become an international show.

[Brumby]

Aussie (hope this is not a bad term), and a Yank.

Aussie is quite OK.  It's pretty much embraced with pride.

It holds none of the risk you might encounter calling someone who's from the South - a Yank.

[digsys]

Actually, I find that quite feasable. Working a lot with LiIon etc, at one stage I found that applying a tiny +/- pulse every so often, conditioned the cells.
I am currently testing that on an SLA design. After all, we have a case of big fat floating chemicals just hanging around with nothing to do, always a worry.  :-)

[EEVblog]

It can be done in a few months if you pre discharge cells to known points, then you can get data across the entire life. But it requires huge numbers of cells to get reliable results multiplied by the time compression factor you want to achieve.

There is some value in accelerated testing, but ultimately it's not a true measure.
And if you want to do it properly you need different batches etc and a reasonably climate controlled environment.

[CJay]

Nobody seems to have asked the most important question of all.

Batteriseroo seem to have chosen the single worst logistics company in the world, evarrr, can we find out who they are so we can all avoid them?

[mc172]

Yodel.

[Fungus]

Another one:

Is that 5 now? Of the many thousands that have been shipped?

Weirdly enough nobody is posting photos, unboxing videos, blog entries, nothing. I don't know what percentage of the population actually does that, but... I'm not seeing undeniable evidence of a mass global shipping yet.

(and people on indiegogo are still asking how to send their shipping address to Bob so they can get theirs).

[Fungus]

Nobody seems to have asked the most important question of all.

Batteriseroo seem to have chosen the single worst logistics company in the world, evarrr, can we find out who they are so we can all avoid them?

Give them a chance. Writing labels by hand and standing in line at the post office takes time.

[CJay]

Nobody seems to have asked the most important question of all.

Batteriseroo seem to have chosen the single worst logistics company in the world, evarrr, can we find out who they are so we can all avoid them?

Give them a chance. Writing labels by hand and standing in line at the post office takes time.

Even that's quicker than this, I'm thinking they must be training a delivery pigeon for each order.

They might be better off with a swallow

[lpickup]

Give them a chance. Writing labels by hand and standing in line at the post office takes time.

Are they also waiting for delivery confirmation on each one before they send the next?  Seems like it!

[Brumby]

I agree that it seems like deliveries are occurring at a glacial pace - but not everyone is going to announce their arrival to the world ... especially with the sort of reception they might expect.

I can see the average Joe wanting to try them out in private - and if they don't measure up, discreetly forget about them.  Saves the embarrassment.  Those who do find benefit from them are more likely to say so - but even then, they may be reluctant for fear of being howled down.


Let's not wear ourselves out by jumping to any more conclusions.  After having endured more than a year of waiting, I would think a little more patience is not too much of an ask.

[Kalvin]

My guesstimate is that

- 1 person out of 100 will mention receiving the Batterisers on the internet.
- 1 person out of 1000 will make a some sort of video and publish it on the internet.

My figures may be optimistic.

[timb]

I agree that it seems like deliveries are occurring at a glacial pace - but not everyone is going to announce their arrival to the world ... especially with the sort of reception they might expect.

I can see the average Joe wanting to try them out in private - and if they don't measure up, discreetly forget about them.  Saves the embarrassment.  Those who do find benefit from them are more likely to say so - but even then, they may be reluctant for fear of being howled down.


Let's not wear ourselves out by jumping to any more conclusions.  After having endured more than a year of waiting, I would think a little more patience is not too much of an ask.

Uh, out of 300+ they've sent out, only 5 people have reported in, despite the letter in the box specifically asking people to take photos and post them upon receipt... Yeah, that totally seems plausible....

You know what's more plausible? They've only actually shipped 10-ish units!

[Bud]

Hard to believe delivery is done via UPS.

[Ontaelio]

It seems to me that the circus is suddenly turning into an evil ugliness.
I'm a journalist, and hopefully a good one, and from Russia to boot, so I guess I'm pretty good at detecting hoaxes when I see them. And in here I clearly see an ugly hoax meant to discredit EEVblog, so that these 'serial interpreneurs' get their Wallmart contract and consequently sell their 'business' to some unsuspecting fat wallet. I see an obvious case of black PR, and sadly I also see that the forum members (Dave included) fell for it.
Come on! Wake up! People, you're being had!
I would have liked to dissect this hoax in clear detail, but Dave asked to avoid mentioning the Australian person that can not be mentioned. But IMHO this is serious, they are perfectly capable of ruining Dave's reputation if he doesn't take any countermeasures.

[ez24]

Hard to believe delivery is done via UPS.

UPS is my favorite and is used by Amazon

[Bud]

From the US to the US destinations - i guess could be ok. From the US to rest of the world and even Canada itis expensive.

[Delta]

I can see the average Joe wanting to try them out in private - and if they don't measure up, discreetly forget about them.  Saves the embarrassment. 

If that is indeed they case, they could well have delivered thousands by now! 

[AlxDroidDev]

You know what's more plausible? They've only actually shipped 10-ish units!

And out of those ~10 recipients, only that Aussie-who-must-not-be-named has any sort of camera.

Hard to believe delivery is done via UPS.

UPS is my favorite and is used by Amazon

I like UPS too. The thing is that they are just too expensive for a company that supposedly is looking for money and has a cheap product.

It seems to me that the circus is suddenly turning into an evil ugliness.
I'm a journalist, and hopefully a good one, and from Russia to boot, so I guess I'm pretty good at detecting hoaxes when I see them. And in here I clearly see an ugly hoax meant to discredit EEVblog, so that these 'serial interpreneurs' get their Wallmart contract and consequently sell their 'business' to some unsuspecting fat wallet. I see an obvious case of black PR, and sadly I also see that the forum members (Dave included) fell for it.
Come on! Wake up! People, you're being had!
I would have liked to dissect this hoax in clear detail, but Dave asked to avoid mentioning the Australian person that can not be mentioned. But IMHO this is serious, they are perfectly capable of ruining Dave's reputation if he doesn't take any countermeasures.

You make almost perfect sense - at least to me. Batteroo, however, is not likely to ruin EEVBlog's or Dave's reputation, because those in EEVBlog's target audience know what Dave is all about: no-bullshit, no-nonsense technical analysis of Batteroo, based on physics, science and electronics engineering. Those who might think otherwise about Dave really don't matter to Dave, to EEVBlog, to the EE industry, to the electronics market or whoever. The way I see it, a lot more people know about EEVBlog than about Batteroo, and some of those who know about Batteroo only do so because of this thread, therefore know beforehand what Batteroo and Bob are about.

I don't think this is a hoax. A scam for sure, but not a hoax.