Handheld meter robustness testing

[stj]

"normal" users of this stuff are engineers - we laugh at security screws.
and they know it! 

they could slap warranty seals over the screw holes or backfill them with epoxy though!!

[tautech]

"normal" users of this stuff are engineers - we laugh at security screws.
and they know it! 

they could slap warranty seals over the screw holes or backfill them with epoxy though!!

Since when did a foreign screw stop you ?
Grind up a tip. 

Had a triangular one the other day that I've never seen, triwing wouldn't fit so ground a spare square one to suit. 

[joeqsmith]

I believe that this is what happened with the Extech I own.  I really believe someone owned it before me and had it and the RF link apart.  I would welcome seeing meters with some sort of tamper proof tag so at least sellers would be aware if a customer had it apart.   

It would have no impact on me.  They would still come apart but I have yet to try and return one.   Even when Brymen offered to repair the BM869s after they knew I had damaged it and how, I did not take them up on it.  It's not their fault I run these meter to failure.     

[IanB]

Even when Brymen offered to repair the BM869s after they knew I had damaged it and how, I did not take them up on it.  It's not their fault I run these meter to failure.   

It is possible perhaps, that they might have liked to inspect the damage to see if they could improve the design? Sending you a good meter in exchange for the broken one seems like a fair trade to get back the damaged meter for examination (which I imagine is the most likely way they would "repair" it.)

[Fungus]

"normal" users of this stuff are engineers - we laugh at security screws.

And we point it out in public, too. It's a negative overall effect, methinks. Joe Public has no interest in opening things up anyway.

Another thing would be tamper-evident screws, or some other way of knowing if it's been taken apart that isn't a stupid shiny sticker. The engineers wouldn't care and the companies would think it voids their warranties so they wouldn't mess around. Overall it improves the brand image.

(nb. I assume the company doesn't go all "warranty void if opened" on their customers, which would be stupid of them).

[joeqsmith]

Even when Brymen offered to repair the BM869s after they knew I had damaged it and how, I did not take them up on it.  It's not their fault I run these meter to failure.   

It is possible perhaps, that they might have liked to inspect the damage to see if they could improve the design? Sending you a good meter in exchange for the broken one seems like a fair trade to get back the damaged meter for examination (which I imagine is the most likely way they would "repair" it.)

Possible but they had told me what parts they believed had failed based on the tests.  And don't forget they had some ideas about what level the meter was going to fail at.  I also told them what parts were actually damaged.  Just a very open dialog. 

[joeqsmith]

I'm sorry to say, still no response from Gossen to my return emails.  If OldNeuron had not written them, I doubt we would have had any response from them.   

On the plus side, I'm in the final phase of testing.  Early on, I pointed out a note about not exceeding 5 volt with the frequency mode selected.  Of  course, I have already far exceeded that with the ESD and my rectified AC test.  The meter was not damaged.   I don't think I have seen a meter where they have a spec this low.   Time will tell if this is going to be the meter's weakest circuit.   Again, the manual claims it can handle a 1.2 ms rise time! The generator I designed and built comes no where near that.      What could go wrong?? 

[Wytnucls]

I don't know why anybody would want to exceed 5V on a high frequency logic level (square wave) function. As per the manual, the range is protected up to 600V for 10s.
The meter can measure high voltage line frequency on other selections, without restrictions.

1.2ms is a typo of course. IEC61010 requirement is for 1.2us rise time.

[joeqsmith]

I don't know why anybody would want to exceed 5V on a high frequency logic level (square wave) function. As per the manual, the range is protected up to 600V for 10s.
The meter can measure high voltage line frequency on other selections, without restrictions.

What I use the meter for is irrelevant.

Again, per your comment above what the meter is used for is irrelevant.   Personally, I see this frequency mode as a gimmick at best.  Old logic may have ran in the sub MHz back in the day of 4000 series CMOS.  If someone were using this technology today (maybe for improve immunity) and running it off of higher than 5V, the meter will not support it.  The thresholds for this mode are also not very forgiving.  I am not really sure what the was the point of them even adding this mode. 

It may not even be that someone wanted to make a frequency measurement.  The person may have just been a mistake.  But again to your point, its all irrelevant.

1.2ms is a typo of course. IEC61010 requirement is for 1.2us rise time.

Yes I pointed out that out during the first video, along with them calling out accessories that are not available to be purchased.  The manual has a few areas that could use some help.  20 years you say?  You would think by now they could correct some of these problems and polish is up a bit.    I would say it's on par with other manuals from mid range meters.     

[stj]

I don't know why anybody would want to exceed 5V on a high frequency logic level (square wave) function.

yes,
i would want it to function upto 24v or maybe even 48v
because i have used it to check sensors in cars.

[Wytnucls]

You are disingenuous at best.
The Brymen 869 user manual is child-like compared to the information given in the Gossen technical reference.
When I say 20 years, I was referring to the older series, like the 30M for instance, which also has relays susceptible to strong magnets. I can't find any lawsuit seeking damages from Gossen. Can you?
Typos are everywhere, Fluke, Keysight, etc. Nothing to see here.
Quoting somebody out of context usually shows a lack of a convincing argument.
You're blowing smoke again. Most logic voltage level is still at 5V and lower. Most will find the Gossen range very useful.
Besides, no meter does everything. Get something else if it doesn't suit your specialized field.
Looking forward to the rest of the impartial review!

[P90]

You are disingenuous at best.
The Brymen 869 user manual is child-like compared to the information given in the Gossen technical reference.
When I say 20 years, I was referring to the older series, like the 30M for instance, which also has relays susceptible to strong magnets. I can't find any lawsuit seeking damages from Gossen. Can you?
Typos are everywhere, Fluke, Keysight, etc. Nothing to see here.
Quoting somebody out of context usually shows a lack of a convincing argument.
You're blowing smoke again. Most logic voltage level is still at 5V and lower. Most will find the Gossen range very useful.
Besides, no meter does everything. Get something else if it doesn't suit your specialized field.
Looking forward to the rest of the impartial review!

he's been inhaling too much of that magic smoke released during the zapping of the multimeters in his Frankenstein experiments...

[Wytnucls]

I don't know why anybody would want to exceed 5V on a high frequency logic level (square wave) function.

yes,
i would want it to function upto 24v or maybe even 48v
because i have used it to check sensors in cars.

Are you seriously going to use an 800 quid 300,000 count meter to test sensors on your Bedford truck?

[stj]

you would be surprised what some company's will pay for.
even if it is stupid.
management arent the brightest staff on the payroll.

[P90]

you would be surprised what some company's will pay for.
even if it is stupid.
management arent the brightest staff on the payroll.

get them to buy a snap-on vantage pro. that's what I got for automotive work.

[3db]

The fan boys simply never give up  :

[Wytnucls]

The fan boys simply never give up  :

We know that Joe loves his Brymen 869, but that's no excuse to pin labels on people. Kristallnacht is in the past.

[joeqsmith]

Part 7



A special drop test for Fungus

[imidis]

Thanks Joe! Awesome work, amazing the problems with a meter in that price range. You don't always get what you pay for.   

[jordanp123]

Looks like it survived well but the issues with it are a bit disconcerting for a meter of this price range. The, still, lack of adequate communication from the company back to the original purchaser is very much a Red flag for me though, personally.

[3db]

The fan boys simply never give up  :

We know that Joe loves his Brymen 869, but that's no excuse to pin labels on people. Kristallnacht is in the past.

What the fuck are you on about ?
Why can't you just accept the valid issues with this meter ?
Just because a company has a great reputation does NOT mean that they can't things wrong.
Gossen have already said they are going to sort it out. 

GET OVER IT !!

3DB

[P90]

[3db]

 

[joeqsmith]

You are disingenuous at best.
The Brymen 869 user manual is child-like compared to the information given in the Gossen technical reference.
When I say 20 years, I was referring to the older series, like the 30M for instance, which also has relays susceptible to strong magnets. I can't find any lawsuit seeking damages from Gossen. Can you?
Typos are everywhere, Fluke, Keysight, etc. Nothing to see here.
Quoting somebody out of context usually shows a lack of a convincing argument.
You're blowing smoke again. Most logic voltage level is still at 5V and lower. Most will find the Gossen range very useful.
Besides, no meter does everything. Get something else if it doesn't suit your specialized field.
Looking forward to the rest of the impartial review!

I'm not aware of a technical reference manual from Gossen.  I have what appears to be a quick start guide and the basic manual for it.   

I would have no way of knowing if the obsolete 30M's internal relays can latch into a wrong state and go undetected, or if it does, could cause the meter to read low AC voltage levels in the presence of high voltage. 

No, I have not looked for lawsuits against GMC.  I am only pointing out what appears to be a safety related problem with this particular meter. 
 
Not sure what you feel I am blowing smoke about.   Logic levels vary a fair amount.  We don't all play with 5V logic.  As I mentioned, you may still see cases of high voltage CMOS.  The feature is very sensitive to input levels.   I doubt there would be many cases where someone would actually be able to use it.    Not to mention is has what appears to be a firmware bug where it does not work at all.   I ran into it when I first powered up the meter and tried to measure frequency.  I thought the meter was damaged out of the box then realized what was going on.   It has happed several times since.   I have not looked into what causes it to get into this mode.  The meter can be off, just sitting on the bench, turn it on and try to measure frequency and the problem shows up. 

[joeqsmith]

The fan boys simply never give up  :

We know that Joe loves his Brymen 869, but that's no excuse to pin labels on people. Kristallnacht is in the past.

What the fuck are you on about ?
Why can't you just accept the valid issues with this meter ?
Just because a company has a great reputation does NOT mean that they can't things wrong.
Gossen have already said they are going to sort it out. 

GET OVER IT !!

3DB

It will be interesting to see if Gossen comes up with a solution and what it is. I think they could fix the frequency input problem with firmware.  The latching relay state change could be improved with firmware and using a shield around the relay.   The proximity effect and sensitivity to the charged cloth can also be reduced by adding a shield.   

I'm not sure what it would take to make the MHz input less sensitive to the voltage levels but I would open up the range as well.  I wonder if there is a way they could improve the slow auto range and get that tri-display to do something useful.   

Personally I would add some sort of protection for that external power connector when it's not in use.  Include the software and cable or at least don't make it so obvious that you are putting the screws to your customers (lower the price).  $70 for a some rubber and a magnet, really?