FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??

[zapta]

FTDI could move to China! 

Alexander.

Yes, the Scots gave up on freedom anyway.

Regarding clones, since they are exact copies they shouldn't be affected by the new FTDI driver right? This means that the ones that stop working aren't clones.

[Richard Crowley]

The tragedy here, isn't really the hardware. The innovation was really all in the software.

That value no longer exists. I can program an Atmel Tiny85 to act as a USB-to-RS232 converter for 1/4 the price of an FTDI chip. It will work with my OS's generic drivers.

(And that's an expensive way of doing it).

Even the ubiquitous Arduino seems to have abndoned FTDI in favor of a second Atmel chip programmed to do the USB-serial function.

[Fungus]

Even the ubiquitous Arduino seems to have abndoned FTDI in favor of a second Atmel chip programmed to do the USB-serial function.

The Arduino Uno has been doing that for years. Look at the schematic, there's an ATMega16U2 doing the job that used to be done by the FTDI chip.

On newer designs like the Arduino Leonardo the USB interface has moved to the main microcontroller chip (which now has hardware support for it). It's total integration onto a single chip.

[Fungus]

The only way for FTDI to stop counterfeiting is to make their devices so cheap that counterfeiting is no longer viable.

race to the bottom ... not possible. FTDI is a small company that has heavily invested time and money in the driver base and chips them make.
they could drop price but then the chinese will drop price even more. every dodo in china has access to a chipfab in a shoddy garage that can spit out chips dirt cheap. Labor cost is next to nothing, they get the design for free from university students, and the government subsidizes these fabs heavily. so if you drop the price , they drop the price, you drop it more, they give em away at a price you can't even afford to pay the lady that comes and cleans the toilets in your office...

The ONLY thing that FTDI had was their name and reputation.

After last week's shitstorm....guess what?

[Rufus]

The ONLY thing that FTDI had was their name and reputation.

After last week's shitstorm....guess what?

You seem to be confusing cause and effect.

FTDI earned a good name and reputation by making and supporting quality products that just worked.

Their name was being damaged by people stamping it on fake shit of unknown quality and origin.

After last week's shitstorm they still make and support quality products that just work, and a chip with FTDI on it is a bit more likely to be one of them.

[Fungus]

After last week's shitstorm they still make and support quality products that just work, and a chip with FTDI on it is a bit more likely to be one of them.

Except a lot of chips with "FTDI" stamped on them just stopped working. For no fault of the designer or the consumer who bought them.

Didn't you watch the video? The bit where Dave says, "Even if you try your best to make sure the chips are genuine, you can never be sure because the supply chains have too many links in them..."

(paraphrased)

Why would you continue working with a supplier who unilaterally decides to brick every device they possibly can, instead of, I dunno, put up an alert box saying: "Warning: Your FTDI chips are fake and will stop working in 60 days".

[Fungus]

FTDI earned a good name and reputation by making and supporting quality products that just worked.

Yep.

Their name was being damaged by people stamping it on fake shit of unknown quality and origin.

Nope. Apparently none of the buyers could tell the difference  - not until somebody decided to brick them as a way of pointing it out.

[mtdoc]

Medical device killing patient over serial comm failure wouldn't have a pass sticker.

The problem could occur with devices like Holter monitors.

Holter monitors are almost obsolete now.  In the last 2 years they've been replaced by one time use, wireless monitors such as the Zio Patch.

I can't think of any critical medical device that relies on usb/serial communication though I assume there must be some.

[eabi]

What is wrong with "counterfeit" chips (those WITHOUT FTDI logo)? Nothing was. Now it is the driver. Now we cannot know how wide that malware-driver was spread.

Did that chips work as well as original? Probably yes, there were no lot of claims against.

So the only real problem with that ICs - they are cheap!

Probably, Chinese guys can do their manufacturing business much better.
Should we pay for "genuine original innovative bla-bla-bla bullshit" staff ? Is it time for one company to realign the business processes and to focus on what they can deliver (design, not manufacture)?

[sweesiong78]

Doesn't work. you can't compete against china. The chinese can spin chips faster than the western world. That is why i left the chip business. it's over. last bluetooth chipset took 3 years to develop fully integrated apart from 2 caps and the antenna. some chines garage outfit made one in 3 months , half the power consumption , half the die size , antenna integrated , sells it for 1/4 of the price.

maybe then the question should be ....why can they make a better cheaper product in 3 months what it took you  guys 3 years to develop???

TSMC and UMC and other chinese wafer fabs have more advanced processes than the western world. simply because they produce more and have more money to upgrade their gear. the fact is that big boys like TI , ST , Infineon are, today , already 2 steps later in technology than the big chinese fabs... only Intel and IBM can surpass them and IBM has recently thrown in the towel as well.

if you mean by 2 steps later I assume you are talking about the photolitography technology mainly? I would think that increasing cost pressure from the chinese fabs would drive the big boys to adopt the more advanced super resolution processes or EUV in order to stay ahead of the curve. TSMC UMC may have the $ to buy the expensive new tooling but the big boys do have all that R&D into those advance resolution enhancement technology, unless they neglected research in which case  they fully deserve their fate.

[Rufus]

http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php/157893-FTDI-s-driver-issues-with-fake-chips-and-Parallax

Another statement from an FTDI customer.

We don't think we have any problem. If it turns out we have shipped you some fake shit it is definitely our fault.

[dr.diesel]

.why can they make a better cheaper product in 3 months what it took you  guys 3 years to develop???

Cause companies in the US are run by idiots in HR.

[allikat]

When major companies, and the US govt can't stop fakes in their supply chains, what chance do the rest of us have?


Relevent quotes:

Back in 2008, the problem was largely viewed as being limited to aging aircraft no longer in production that needed parts that are tougher to come by. Now, fake parts are making their way into brand new military equipment like the P-8, the C-27J Spartan and even missiles used by the Missile Defense Agency.

Russian aviation officials were alarmed when, upon inspecting 60,000 aircraft parts, they found that nearly a third of them were counterfeits.

Reference:
http://defensetech.org/2011/11/08/counterfeit-parts-found-on-new-p-8-posiedons/
http://blog.securecomponents.com/blog/bid/315161/CAMA-Counterfeit-Components-Epidemic-Flight-214

[sweesiong78]

When major companies, and the US govt can't stop fakes in their supply chains, what chance do the rest of us have?


Relevent quotes:

Back in 2008, the problem was largely viewed as being limited to aging aircraft no longer in production that needed parts that are tougher to come by. Now, fake parts are making their way into brand new military equipment like the P-8, the C-27J Spartan and even missiles used by the Missile Defense Agency.

Russian aviation officials were alarmed when, upon inspecting 60,000 aircraft parts, they found that nearly a third of them were counterfeits.

Wafer fabs are expensive. I wonder why western/russian governments that rely on these sensitive chips do not consider them as 'strategic' assets and invest in fabs like they would in a power plant or any other basic infrastructure?

[eabi]

Another statement from an FTDI customer.
We don't think we have any problem. If it turns out we have shipped you some fake shit it is definitely our fault.

It would be so nice if they three (FTDI, Vendor and Supplier ) were able to resolve their issues without end-user intervention. I don't see a reason why end-user should be affected by someone in Vendor's supply chain. Especially, considering the fact the hardware is fully functional.

[zapta]

Didn't you watch the video? The bit where Dave says, "Even if you try your best to make sure the chips are genuine, you can never be sure because the supply chains have too many links in them..."

Where is that video?

I saw the other thread about the video but there was no reference.

[mrpackethead]

Does eevblog.com use a FTDI chip?   The main web site is down.. Or maybe they hacked it.

[Nerull]

I've worked for a companies producing lifesaving medical devices. These things are built with constant audits all the way up the supply chain, with the FDA always looming overhead. I've still seen problems caused by vendors substituting counterfit parts without authorization, including major recalls.

If you think it can't happen to you, it probably already has and you just never found out.

[Rufus]

The best way to deal with this is just stop designing in FDTI's parts.  There are plenty of alternatives these days.  All I can say is that I will no longer design FTDI's chips into my products [and there are over a dozen older designs that I did that used their parts].

You know what they say: "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me!"

So you have been shipping product with fake FTDI parts then - where did you buy them?

[craigh]

So this explains why a USB/Serial converter that I purchased from DealExtreme (obviously using a fake FTDI232R chip) suddenly stopped working and the two others I plugged in right after also failed.  I was looking to buy new FTDI chips from Mouser (CDN$4.88 each for 10) and re-work the boards, but I found a way to un-brick the ones I have (ain't the Internet great).  Following the instructions of MNHS Beacon and MrPvallone on YouTube, I installed older drivers (unsigned by-the-way) and used FTDI's own tool, MProg to re-program the product ID.

Excellent rant Dave, and I agree with what you are saying.  I do believe though, that FTDI has the 'legal right' to brick fake chips, but not the moral right.  They shouldn't have done it.  I expect it's pissing off a lot of people and not just engineer types.  I'm imagining some average Joe/Jane, who has no understanding of computer systems, suddenly finding that their device stops working.  I'd bet there are more than just a few people like that out there.

I've had to deal with upset customers who ran into bugs in products I've designed.  Nothing diffuses the situation better than an admission of fault and a quick fix.  My customers kept on buying after that.

Thanks Dave, I enjoy your videos a lot.

[Rufus]

I was looking to buy new FTDI chips from Mouser (CDN$4.88 each for 10) and re-work the boards, but I found a way to un-brick the ones I have (ain't the Internet great).  Following the instructions of MNHS Beacon and MrPvallone on YouTube, I installed older drivers (unsigned by-the-way) and used FTDI's own tool, MProg to re-program the product ID.

So you can carry on stealing FTDI drivers - yay!

[MyElectronsFellOut]

Unless you are personally buying the FTDI chip from FTDI, you have no control over the source of the chip. As Dave has mentioned, even reputable suppliers can get stung with fakes. 

Yes FTDI have a right to protect the IP, but not to deliberately destroy consumer products when the vast majority of users will most likely be none technical end users. Legally speaking, I reckon they have broken a few laws and could end up in serious trouble if a big company has been innocently caught out by this.

Long and short is if you're designing a commercial product, you're very unlikely to run in to the problem (though I reckon I will be looking at alternatives in the future).  If you're on a budget and doing some hobby stuff and you're source of choice is Ebay, then make sure you have a copy of the old drivers, just in case.   I agree knock-offs are damaging but if I get something on the cheap that claims to be genuine but doesn't work because the FTDI is fake, I'm damn well gone make it work.

[mrflibble]

So you can carry on stealing FTDI drivers - yay!

Spot the lack of FTDI copyright in the linux drivers. See for example: http://lxr.free-electrons.com/source/drivers/usb/serial/ftdi_sio.c And if you look in the other FTDI linux driver files you will see a similar situation

Also spot the fact that the linux driver has been written by non-ftdi employees.

So again: FTDI wants to make their driver refuse to work with non-genuine chippies? Fair enough. They want to alter hardware that is MY property? Not okay, and possibly illegal.

Did you grasp the concept by now that the FTDI using world (genuine or otherwise) does not 100% rely on windoze drivers? Excellent! Because that way when you resort to the broken argument of "but but windows ftdi drivers" again, we can simply reply "linux ftdi drivers" as shorthand notation for "dear Rufus, your driver argument is a load of horse droppings". That will save some time.

[armandas]

My 2 cents.

I think the general consensus here is that FTDI are in their right to stop the non-genuine chips working with their driver and the way they should do that is by simply refusing to work with the non-genuine chips.

<snip>

Good to see at least some people are thinking straight here. FTDI have no obligations to support fake chips and if you agree with that, then what is the difference "bricking" the fake chip and simply not recognising it at the driver level?

Based on the code that was posted here, the PID is overwritten for all chips, but it only sticks on the fake ones. Is FTDI to blame here? Really? You get scammed and you blame the manufacturer for it...

By the way, I have worked at the company who managed to buy a large quantity of fake FTDI chips. Does anyone think it would have been good for business if the drivers were shouting "Your FTDI device is not genuine!" to the customer's face? We were just glad we found it out at the testing stage and were able to get the money back. The distributor, on the other hand, probably lost quite a bit of money.

[Nerull]

All we need is a picture of someone's grandma laying on the floor in a coma with a USB cable connected to her heart monitor or insulin pump with an new hardware found driver screen on the computer  and then USB Device not recognized.

nope. wouldn't happen. medical device = traceable parts down to the lot number and production day

It would be nice if it actually worked that way.