When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?

[nctnico]

Well... nobody seems to care that the electricity for EVs comes from fossil fuels as well (for now).

Not an accurate statement - a half truth at best.  Only a portion of  it does - and worldwide that portion is shrinking. In Europe, Central and South America less than half comes from fossil fuels and in some locales (eg PNW USA) it is very little (or none).

Nobody cares. Ask some people in your local mall how much CO2 per kWh gets emitted for their electricity. Don't be surprised if less than 1 out of 1000 actually knows it. If you are lucky some know that an EV doesn't have a tail pipe and someone on TV or internet said it is better. That is also the public which goes for the cheapest and easiest solution for transportation. Technicallities are completely uninteresting. A few may find it fascinating to plugging their cars in every day when they come home from work but mark my words: most people really don't want to deal with that kind of crap. The can charge their mobile phones in the car if they forgot to plug it in but that isn't that simple for an EV. Forgetting to plug an EV in means being to late at work next day. That can have serious financial consequences.

[mtdoc]

Well... nobody seems to care that the electricity for EVs comes from fossil fuels as well (for now).

Not an accurate statement - a half truth at best.  Only a portion of  it does - and worldwide that portion is shrinking. In Europe, Central and South America less than half comes from fossil fuels and in some locales (eg PNW USA) it is very little (or none).

Nobody cares. Ask some people in your local mall how much CO2 per kWh gets emitted for their electricity. Don't be surprised if less than 1 out of 1000 actually knows it. If you are lucky some know that an EV doesn't have a tail pipe and someone on TV or internet said it is better. That is also the public which goes for the cheapest and easiest solution for transportation. Technicallities are completely uninteresting. A few may find it fascinating to plugging their cars in every day when they come home from work but mark my words: most people really don't want to deal with that kind of crap. The can charge their mobile phones in the car if they forgot to plug it in but that isn't that simple for an EV. Forgetting to plug an EV in means being to late at work next day. That can have serious financial consequences.

What does any of that have to do with what portion of electricity production comes from fossil fuels?  -

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Renewables 25%, fossil fuels 65%, and the other 10% is nuclear. So how is that "half truth at best"?

[nctnico]

Well... nobody seems to care that the electricity for EVs comes from fossil fuels as well (for now).

Not an accurate statement - a half truth at best.  Only a portion of  it does - and worldwide that portion is shrinking. In Europe, Central and South America less than half comes from fossil fuels and in some locales (eg PNW USA) it is very little (or none).

Nobody cares. Ask some people in your local mall how much CO2 per kWh gets emitted for their electricity. Don't be surprised if less than 1 out of 1000 actually knows it. If you are lucky some know that an EV doesn't have a tail pipe and someone on TV or internet said it is better. That is also the public which goes for the cheapest and easiest solution for transportation. Technicallities are completely uninteresting. A few may find it fascinating to plugging their cars in every day when they come home from work but mark my words: most people really don't want to deal with that kind of crap. The can charge their mobile phones in the car if they forgot to plug it in but that isn't that simple for an EV. Forgetting to plug an EV in means being to late at work next day. That can have serious financial consequences.

What does any of that have to do with what portion of electricity production comes from fossil fuels?  -

That is my point: nobody cares!

[mtdoc]

Well... nobody seems to care that the electricity for EVs comes from fossil fuels as well (for now).

Not an accurate statement - a half truth at best.  Only a portion of  it does - and worldwide that portion is shrinking. In Europe, Central and South America less than half comes from fossil fuels and in some locales (eg PNW USA) it is very little (or none).

Nobody cares. Ask some people in your local mall how much CO2 per kWh gets emitted for their electricity. Don't be surprised if less than 1 out of 1000 actually knows it. If you are lucky some know that an EV doesn't have a tail pipe and someone on TV or internet said it is better. That is also the public which goes for the cheapest and easiest solution for transportation. Technicallities are completely uninteresting. A few may find it fascinating to plugging their cars in every day when they come home from work but mark my words: most people really don't want to deal with that kind of crap. The can charge their mobile phones in the car if they forgot to plug it in but that isn't that simple for an EV. Forgetting to plug an EV in means being to late at work next day. That can have serious financial consequences.

What does any of that have to do with what portion of electricity production comes from fossil fuels?  -

That is my point: nobody cares!

But you're the one who brought it up!!!

You: Electricity for EVs comes from fossil fuels.

Me: That's an innaccurate statement. Here are the facts.

You: Nobody cares!  Ooh - look butterflies..

 

[NiHaoMike]

One big difference is that individuals can easily increase their % of electricity from renewable sources by installing their own wind and solar, up to 100% if they want to. Making your own biofuel at home is a bit more involved!

[nctnico]

One big difference is that individuals can easily increase their % of electricity from renewable sources by installing their own wind and solar, up to 100% if they want to.

That is a totally false assumption. You need space to install solar panels or a wind turbine.

@mtdoc: just look at what people do if they have a choice: they vote for someone who doesn't give a sh*t about the environment. As long as their cars run cheap today everything is well.

[NiHaoMike]

That is a totally false assumption. You need space to install solar panels or a wind turbine.

You'll be surprised how many do have the space.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

You'll be surprised how many do have the space.

Many do, many many more, don't. And in any case, when the sun shines is when you aren't at home, and when you need the power more, the sun isn't shining. More or less.

[Kjelt]

That is a totally false assumption. You need space to install solar panels or a wind turbine.

You'll be surprised how many do have the space.

Looks like you two have a culture clash:
The rural states in the US people have probably all the space.
The Netherlands is one of the most populated countries in persons/m² so people have about the same space as americans living in the heart of NYC?
In an appartment complex of 20 stories with 200 families you only have one roof to put some solarpanels on   

Since the trend is that people are going to live in cities, I agree with nctnico that this can become an issue. In future cities probably people have to share personal transportation devices or "rent" them on demand.

[NiHaoMike]

In really dense cities like NYC, a car isn't even a good way of transportation.

[Marco]

In future cities probably people have to share personal transportation devices or "rent" them on demand.

In future cities peons might have to decide to start building guillotines then. Because fuck that.

[boffin]

That is a totally false assumption. You need space to install solar panels or a wind turbine.

You'll be surprised how many do have the space.

Apparently a lot of the Dutch do have the space to install some sort of electric charging infrastructure, as the percentage of PHEV vehicles sold in the  NL (vs the total market) is one of the highest in the world.

[coppice]

That is a totally false assumption. You need space to install solar panels or a wind turbine.

You'll be surprised how many do have the space.

Apparently a lot of the Dutch do have the space to install some sort of electric charging infrastructure, as the percentage of PHEV vehicles sold in the  NL (vs the total market) is one of the highest in the world.

I've seen a lot of kerbside charging points in Amsterdam. I understand most people charge with these, rather than a charger they own.

[nctnico]

That is a totally false assumption. You need space to install solar panels or a wind turbine.

You'll be surprised how many do have the space.

Apparently a lot of the Dutch do have the space to install some sort of electric charging infrastructure, as the percentage of PHEV vehicles sold in the  NL (vs the total market) is one of the highest in the world.

That is only due to a tax loop hole which has been closed. Many of the PHEV cars which where sold where the Mitsubishi Outlander (a big SUV) which has an electric range of around 25km (less than an electric motor cycle!). These tax reductions for PHEVs have been terminated since 2016 so sales have plummeted by 90%. People wheren't buying these cars to drive electric but just to get a cheap company car. In the Netherlands there is a system where part of a company car's price is added to your income before taxes. The amount is a percentage of the purchase price of the car and the percentage depends on how environmentally friendly the car is. Once the government figured out nobody is charging their PHEVs they put the PHEVs in the normal bracket. Currently there are 2 brackets. One with 4% for zero emission cars (like pure EV and Hydrogen) and 22% for the rest. The 22% basically means you pay 10% of the new price of the car each year from your own pocket.

The most recent modification of this system is that the 4% bracket only applies to the first 50k euro of the price of an EV. So if your EV costs 80k euro you'll get (80k-50k) * 0.22=30k*0.22=6.6k added to your income and pay about 3k euro in taxes each year. This new rule doesn't apply to cars running on Hydrogen.

[nctnico]

That is a totally false assumption. You need space to install solar panels or a wind turbine.

You'll be surprised how many do have the space.

Looks like you two have a culture clash:
The rural states in the US people have probably all the space.

And not just that. Putting solar panels on your roof means you are left with a dark attic. Putting windows in the roof (especially facing south) turns a dark attic in an extra room with lots of light. That is a very good investment or a cheap way to get extra space in your home!

[f4eru]

Totally offtopic trolling.

[vk6zgo]

That is a totally false assumption. You need space to install solar panels or a wind turbine.

You'll be surprised how many do have the space.

Looks like you two have a culture clash:
The rural states in the US people have probably all the space.

And not just that. Putting solar panels on your roof means you are left with a dark attic. Putting windows in the roof (especially facing south) turns a dark attic in an extra room with lots of light. That is a very good investment or a cheap way to get extra space in your home!

In Oz, attics (like cellars) are "as rare as hen's teeth".
Most houses are mostly single storey, with wide expanses of roof area.
That, plus ample sunlight means solar arrays on roofs are a common feature of suburban homes in this country.

On a different tack, in remote areas, locally sourced renewables are often a better bet than running many kilometres of grid network to service mainly kangaroos & wombats.

All good, but it means that high current recharging stations will be hard to provide at wayside "roadhouses".
These often have their own set of solar arrays (normally on the ground), backed up with a diesel generator.

[NiHaoMike]

And not just that. Putting solar panels on your roof means you are left with a dark attic. Putting windows in the roof (especially facing south) turns a dark attic in an extra room with lots of light. That is a very good investment or a cheap way to get extra space in your home!

Not sure where you are but attics tend to get hot enough without windows. With windows, you'll basically be building a greenhouse that would be too hot to be of much use for a good part of a year.

[SiliconWizard]

And not just that. Putting solar panels on your roof means you are left with a dark attic. Putting windows in the roof (especially facing south) turns a dark attic in an extra room with lots of light. That is a very good investment or a cheap way to get extra space in your home!

Not sure where you are but attics tend to get hot enough without windows. With windows, you'll basically be building a greenhouse that would be too hot to be of much use for a good part of a year.

I second that. Or maybe extra space for growing some... plants?

[mtdoc]

And not just that. Putting solar panels on your roof means you are left with a dark attic. Putting windows in the roof (especially facing south) turns a dark attic in an extra room with lots of light. That is a very good investment or a cheap way to get extra space in your home!

Not sure where you are but attics tend to get hot enough without windows. With windows, you'll basically be building a greenhouse that would be too hot to be of much use for a good part of a year.

Yeah, it's a ridiculous and illogical assertion.   Only a fool would put roof windows (we call them skylights in the US) on an attic roof. Any inhabitable attic will have vertical walls for windows. The roof is perfect for PV.

[nctnico]

And not just that. Putting solar panels on your roof means you are left with a dark attic. Putting windows in the roof (especially facing south) turns a dark attic in an extra room with lots of light. That is a very good investment or a cheap way to get extra space in your home!

Not sure where you are but attics tend to get hot enough without windows. With windows, you'll basically be building a greenhouse that would be too hot to be of much use for a good part of a year.

Insulation and aircondition do wonders. Besides that you can open the windows and let the wind do the job of cooling the attic down. You can try and argue otherwise but my office is an excellent example of turning an attic (from a typical home you see a lot in the Netherlands) into a big extra room. Putting solar panels on the roof would take that away again. Besides the extra space the extra room easely adds 20k euro to the value of the home.

[NiHaoMike]

Sunlight is up to 1kW per square meter or so and I'd imagine an attic space worth using would have several square meters of roof area. The idea of letting in several kW of heat and light into a relatively small space is ridiculous, so realistically you would use only part of the area for a window and the rest can be used for solar panels. The solar panels would help cool the attic by shielding the roof from the sun.

[nctnico]

Sunlight is up to 1kW per square meter or so and I'd imagine an attic space worth using would have several square meters of roof area. The idea of letting in several kW of heat and light into a relatively small space is ridiculous, so realistically you would use only part of the area for a window and the rest can be used for solar panels. The solar panels would help cool the attic by shielding the roof from the sun.

So your home doesn't have windows at all then? The same goes for any room with windows. On a sunny day you put a sun screen on the outside. Is that so hard to come up with? 

Anyway a roof with windows is less ideal to put solar panels on. The size of the panels will have to match with the available space like large tiles. I already went through all these scenarios and it becomes a complicated jig-saw puzzle quickly.

[DougSpindler]

And not just that. Putting solar panels on your roof means you are left with a dark attic. Putting windows in the roof (especially facing south) turns a dark attic in an extra room with lots of light. That is a very good investment or a cheap way to get extra space in your home!

You are selfishingly thinking local, and not global.  Turning an attic space in New Mexico, Arizona, Texas, California and many other states into an living space would cost a fortune in electricty to keep cool enough for a human during the summer.  Temperatures can get in the 130-150 degree  (55-60j in the summer.  Probably use all of the electricity the solar panels produce in a year to keep the thing cool in the summer.

And the what about folks who have houses in the northern states where their freezers are far warmer than their attica are in the winter.  Look not saying you have a bad idea, it’s just what works where you are may not work for others.