When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?

[DougSpindler]

The drawback of installing solar panels at schools.    Many schools in California have installed solar panels in the parking lots of schools.  Sounds great doesn’t.  Millions were spent to install the panels. 

First thing I noticed is how hot it gets when one is standing under the panels.  I suspect the panels trap the radiant heat and prevent convection currents from carrying the heat energy away.  It’s surprising how hot it is under the panels.

The the other thing is the kids have done to the panels.  After six month after being installed there the kids have thrown all kids of stuff onto them.  Tennis shoes, books, lunches, shoes, books and more shoes.  It’s almost like it has turned into a game to see how far towards the center of the panels the kids can throw books and shoes.

Zsad how we as tax payers spend millions to install solar panels at our schools and the kids decrease the output by throwing stuff on them. 

   
 

[CatalinaWOW]

The drawback of installing solar panels at schools.    Many schools in California have installed solar panels in the parking lots of schools.  Sounds great doesn’t.  Millions were spent to install the panels. 

First thing I noticed is how hot it gets when one is standing under the panels.  I suspect the panels trap the radiant heat and prevent convection currents from carrying the heat energy away.  It’s surprising how hot it is under the panels.

The the other thing is the kids have done to the panels.  After six month after being installed there the kids have thrown all kids of stuff onto them.  Tennis shoes, books, lunches, shoes, books and more shoes.  It’s almost like it has turned into a game to see how far towards the center of the panels the kids can throw books and shoes.

Zsad how we as tax payers spend millions to install solar panels at our schools and the kids decrease the output by throwing stuff on them. 

 

Looks like this is another example of how everything in solar is site specific.  My grandkids are in Arizona and the solar panels are in two places, over a portion of the playground and over the visitors parking lot.  In both places the shade is welcome and makes things much cooler.  The school is at the crest of a ridge so a breeze may clear out the heat trapping effects you mention.  I have seen no evidence of the "stuff" on the panels.  Either kids behavior is different (not better, just different venues for their kid stuff), or the maintenance staff is more pro-active.

[glarsson]

Anyway a roof with windows is less ideal to put solar panels on. The size of the panels will have to match with the available space like large tiles. I already went through all these scenarios and it becomes a complicated jig-saw puzzle quickly.

Compared to solar panels on the road surface the roof mounted solar panels are a match made in heaven.

[nctnico]

Anyway a roof with windows is less ideal to put solar panels on. The size of the panels will have to match with the available space like large tiles. I already went through all these scenarios and it becomes a complicated jig-saw puzzle quickly.

Compared to solar panels on the road surface the roof mounted solar panels are a match made in heaven.

Fixed the quotes for you. But no, the financials may not work out so well after all. Blindly putting solar panels on your roof without thinking about a future utilisation of the space under the roof may be a mistake. It seems some never even considered this. I like to watch home improvement programmes to get new ideas for my own home improvement projects. In one from the US they re-did various attics to create more living space but they never seemed to have the idea of putting windows in the roofs and thus making the room much more useful beyond a dark man-cave.

Another thought: if you have a large roof you are likely to have a large piece of land as well. It might be more benificial to install the solar panels on the ground so they can be setup at the perfect angle to maximise efficiency. Or create a shaded area to sit under (but that might require building permits).

[DougSpindler]

Anyway a roof with windows is less ideal to put solar panels on. The size of the panels will have to match with the available space like large tiles. I already went through all these scenarios and it becomes a complicated jig-saw puzzle quickly.

Compared to solar panels on the road surface the roof mounted solar panels are a match made in heaven.

Fixed the quotes for you. But no, the financials may not work out so well after all. Blindly putting solar panels on your roof without thinking about a future utilisation of the space under the roof may be a mistake. It seems some never even considered this. I like to watch home improvement programmes to get new ideas for my own home improvement projects. In one from the US they re-did various attics to create more living space but they never seemed to have the idea of putting windows in the roofs and thus making the room much more useful beyond a dark man-cave.

Another thought: if you have a large roof you are likely to have a large piece of land as well. It might be more benificial to install the solar panels on the ground so they can be setup at the perfect angle to maximise efficiency. Or create a shaded area to sit under (but that might require building permits).

With most of our worlds population living in cities people just don’t have the land for ground mounted systems.  Not sure how it is in other parts of the world, but here in California seems like everyone is selling solar in order to get rich quick. 

[glarsson]

Another thought: if you have a large roof you are likely to have a large piece of land as well.

Not here. Too close to the city. For us it's the roof or nothing.

[tszaboo]

With most of our worlds population living in cities people just don’t have the land for ground mounted systems.  Not sure how it is in other parts of the world, but here in California seems like everyone is selling solar in order to get rich quick.

Not even close.


"The red squares represent the area that would be enough for solar power plants to produce a quantity of electricity consumed (as or 2005) by the world, the European Union (EU-25) and Germany (De). (Data provided by the German Aerospace Centre (DLR), 2005). To replace all energy consumption (not just electricity), areas about 5 times as large would suffice."

[DougSpindler]

With most of our worlds population living in cities people just don’t have the land for ground mounted systems.  Not sure how it is in other parts of the world, but here in California seems like everyone is selling solar in order to get rich quick.

Not even close.


"The red squares represent the area that would be enough for solar power plants to produce a quantity of electricity consumed (as or 2005) by the world, the European Union (EU-25) and Germany (De). (Data provided by the German Aerospace Centre (DLR), 2005). To replace all energy consumption (not just electricity), areas about 5 times as large would suffice."

Get real.  You do understand of all o the energy from those areas would be used to power the world those areas would be in total darkness, nothing could live there and temperature would have to be at absolute zero.  Is that someplace you would want to live?

[Marco]

"The red squares represent the area that would be enough for solar power plants to produce a quantity of electricity consumed (as or 2005) by the world, the European Union (EU-25) and Germany (De). (Data provided by the German Aerospace Centre (DLR), 2005). To replace all energy consumption (not just electricity), areas about 5 times as large would suffice."

Maybe if we had made Morocco part of the EU from the start that would have been somewhat of an option (with gas plants as backup, maybe with some coal gasification plants as a partial backup for the backup). As it stands though Africa is not something Europe can reasonably depend upon.

[mtdoc]

Since at least one person here seems unable to grasp the concept that utilizing only a small portion of the solar insolation falling in the Earth’s surface could produce all the worlds electricity needs (even assuming only 8% efficient PV!) here’s a physicist doing a good job explaining the math in a way that even the technically challenged should be able to understand.

The map below gives another graphic presentation. The black dots represent the surface area needed. An no, FFD, it does not mean darkness or cold temperatures at those locales 

[nctnico]

"The red squares represent the area that would be enough for solar power plants to produce a quantity of electricity consumed (as or 2005) by the world, the European Union (EU-25) and Germany (De). (Data provided by the German Aerospace Centre (DLR), 2005). To replace all energy consumption (not just electricity), areas about 5 times as large would suffice."

Maybe if we had made Morocco part of the EU from the start that would have been somewhat of an option (with gas plants as backup, maybe with some coal gasification plants as a partial backup for the backup). As it stands though Africa is not something Europe can reasonably depend upon.

Exactly. The political implications alone would be very problematic. See what happens with the regions where they produce most of the oil. And then there are also the challenges of building the installation, protecting and maintaining it. A desert isn't very hospitable and the Sahara isn't a flat piece of sand. There are also people living there which may not like having to give up 'their' land. And I didn't mention the batteries yet to power the world when it is dark and the wiring needed to distribute the electricity. It might be an option if you want to pay like $5 per kWh.

[DougSpindler]

Since at least one person here seems unable to grasp the concept that utilizing only a small portion of the solar insolation falling in the Earth’s surface could produce all the worlds electricity needs (even assuming only 8% efficient PV!) here’s a physicist doing a good job explaining the math in a way that even the technically challenged should be able to understand.

The map below gives another graphic presentation. The black dots represent the surface area needed. An no, FFD, it does not mean darkness or cold temperatures at those locales 

Please expain why there would not be total darkness/. Doesn’t the legions for the graph indicates all of the sums enegy at the black dots is being converted to electrical enegy?  Sure looks that way to me.

 

[tszaboo]

Get real.  You do understand of all o the energy from those areas would be used to power the world those areas would be in total darkness, nothing could live there and temperature would have to be at absolute zero.  Is that someplace you would want to live?

Sure, because solar panels suck out the light from the air, just like in Ghostbusters. Where did you get your physics education?

Imagine your country spending money on solar installations, instead of the millitary, to invade for oil.
With the yearly budget of US millitary (590Billion USD) you could install about 590GW capacity, enough to power for about a 100 million people. In 4 years you would have went to renewable energy.

[CatalinaWOW]

While playing large regions with solar cells does not reduce them to frigid temperatures, taking roughly ten percent of the thermal energy arriving in one zone and transporting it elsewhere could very well have undesirable consequences.  Just about everything else we have done when scaled up to industrial level has proved to have unpredicted gothchas.  Is probably better than petroleum but it is naive to believe that it is perfect.

[DougSpindler]

Get real.  You do understand of all o the energy from those areas would be used to power the world those areas would be in total darkness, nothing could live there and temperature would have to be at absolute zero.  Is that someplace you would want to live?

Sure, because solar panels suck out the light from the air, just like in Ghostbusters. Where did you get your physics education?

Imagine your country spending money on solar installations, instead of the millitary, to invade for oil.
With the yearly budget of US millitary (590Billion USD) you could install about 590GW capacity, enough to power for about a 100 million people. In 4 years you would have went to renewable energy.

Isn’t that how solar panels work?  Have you take a basic high school physics class?  Where do you think the energy to produce electricity from the solar panels is comming from.  What about suggesting putting wind turbines on every car to produce electricity.  When the car drives down the road the wind turbine will spin to provide power to the car.  Or even better would be gravitty powered cars.  Build every car on top of a hill so the power of gravity will power the car.  All are good suggestions, until put into practice.

[DougSpindler]

Remember the future when self-driving cars would be common?

https://youtu.be/j5RYRwHKqRs

[nctnico]

Remember the future when self-driving cars would be common?

Volkswagen aims at starting the sell self-driving cars in 2022 according to an article I read last week.

[DougSpindler]

Remember the future when self-driving cars would be common?

Volkswagen aims at starting the sell self-driving cars in 2022 according to an article I read last week.

That’s only 40 years after Britain said they would have selfdriving cars. 
And would anytone trust what VW has to say?  Have they ever lied about anything in the past?

[tszaboo]

Isn’t that how solar panels work?  Have you take a basic high school physics class?  Where do you think the energy to produce electricity from the solar panels is comming from.  What about suggesting putting wind turbines on every car to produce electricity.  When the car drives down the road the wind turbine will spin to provide power to the car.  Or even better would be gravitty powered cars.  Build every car on top of a hill so the power of gravity will power the car.  All are good suggestions, until put into practice.

OK, discussion closed, welcome to my ignore list.

[nctnico]

While playing large regions with solar cells does not reduce them to frigid temperatures, taking roughly ten percent of the thermal energy arriving in one zone and transporting it elsewhere could very well have undesirable consequences.  Just about everything else we have done when scaled up to industrial level has proved to have unpredicted gothchas.  Is probably better than petroleum but it is naive to believe that it is perfect.

I don't think it matters. The amount of energy the sun blasts onto the earth and the energy that is radiated into space is huge compared to the amount of energy being used. The image with the red rectangle does make that very clear.

[CatalinaWOW]

While playing large regions with solar cells does not reduce them to frigid temperatures, taking roughly ten percent of the thermal energy arriving in one zone and transporting it elsewhere could very well have undesirable consequences.  Just about everything else we have done when scaled up to industrial level has proved to have unpredicted gothchas.  Is probably better than petroleum but it is naive to believe that it is perfect.

I don't think it matters. The amount of energy the sun blasts onto the earth and the energy that is radiated into space is huge compared to the amount of energy being used. The image with the red rectangle does make that very clear.

Tiny differences do matter.  Just for fun, look at the total transmission of heat to space with 270 parts per million CO2 and compare it to the total transmission with 400 ppm.  Spoiler alert, it is not any where close to the ratio of 270 to 400.  Bring your decimal points, you will need a lot of them.  But that is what global warming is about.  The fact that there are so many decimals involved is why there is so much argument about it, and why it took so long and so much effort to figure it out.  Whether moving a few hundred gigawatts from Africa to Europe matters isn't completely clear one way or the other. 

[SiliconWizard]

Just a quick thought. Solar panels are NOT the only way of extracting energy from the sun's radiated energy, and not even the most effective one, at least for now. It's a shame we focus almost exclusively on that.

[coppice]

While playing large regions with solar cells does not reduce them to frigid temperatures, taking roughly ten percent of the thermal energy arriving in one zone and transporting it elsewhere could very well have undesirable consequences.  Just about everything else we have done when scaled up to industrial level has proved to have unpredicted gothchas.  Is probably better than petroleum but it is naive to believe that it is perfect.

I don't think it matters. The amount of energy the sun blasts onto the earth and the energy that is radiated into space is huge compared to the amount of energy being used. The image with the red rectangle does make that very clear.

So, you're OK with tornadoes? I wonder what other violent weather you'd get taking 10% of all the incident energy on a fairly large area, causing huge temperature differentials around its borders?

[nctnico]

While playing large regions with solar cells does not reduce them to frigid temperatures, taking roughly ten percent of the thermal energy arriving in one zone and transporting it elsewhere could very well have undesirable consequences.  Just about everything else we have done when scaled up to industrial level has proved to have unpredicted gothchas.  Is probably better than petroleum but it is naive to believe that it is perfect.

I don't think it matters. The amount of energy the sun blasts onto the earth and the energy that is radiated into space is huge compared to the amount of energy being used. The image with the red rectangle does make that very clear.

So, you're OK with tornadoes? I wonder what other violent weather you'd get taking 10% of all the incident energy on a fairly large area, causing huge temperature differentials around its borders?

The amount of land in the biggest red rectangle in Nandblog's image is about 50,000 quare kilometers. The desert the square is in is 9,200,000 sq km so compared to the desert alone the size of the biggest red square is less than 0.5%. And you don't have to concentrate the entire installation in one place.

[CatalinaWOW]

The density of power removal can be made low as you point out.  The density at the receiving end is also low.  But the fact remains, you are moving hundreds of gigawatts from one continent to another.  We have always discovered the impact of large scale engineering efforts after the fact because they are not obvious.  Who knew that trading horse for something else could be hard on the earth, or that killing the pests in our houses with DDT would kill birds that didn't even eat bugs.