When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?

[ahbushnell]

Which one and according to which regulations will this be installed and tested for functioning properly / safely? High voltage DC contactors are expensive and bulky so car manufacturers are not going to install these if they don't have to.

You really need to look at some teardown video's and talk to people designing such cars ... instead of spouting FUD ...

There IS a HV contactor in the batteyr pack. It will be shot open under certain conditions. It is an explosive charge to guarantee the thing opening and potential arcs/sticky contacts being extinguished and remediated. It has its own redundant backup , even if the local 12 volt system fails and there is a catastrophic short on the high voltage bus and the pack is somehow damaged : the contactors chemical charge WILL still fire fromt he embedded supercap in the contactor.

Just like you have a mechanical clutch in a mechanical engine you have an 'enable' pin to the inverter driving the propulsion motor. set the enable to low ( by clicking the stalk on the steering wheel in neutral ) and the motor goes in coast. This is a hard-wired , not software controlled gating on the power mosfets. Even in case of a cut control wire the system ios designed to fail-safe. ( meaning motor switched to coast ).

I have the impression that you think that these newfangled electric cars are designed by a bunch of muppets ...

This probably could have been said without the attack mode.  But I think it sounds correct to me. 

[nfmax]

And how many time had people mixed up the accelerator pedal with the brake?  Or an older driver is backing out of a parking space and mows down a bunch of people after mistaking D for the letter R.

...which is why you should always reverse into a parking bay, and move out of it forwards.

[jh15]

A recent software update to my model S added a feature to help prevent that.
     If the car senses objects in front and someone mashes the gas instead of the brake, the acceleration is greatly limited. Prevent the crashing through a store window effect.

[free_electron]

Teslas seem to have a couple of "hack through the cables here" points for firemen to disconnect the power in an emergency, but they don't seem to have taken them very seriously. The labelling isn't good, and there is weak information on the car about what the emergency services need to do with those disconnect points. The Prius has been around a long time, and I think is the most mature family of cars with high voltage high current systems on board. How well do they handle high voltage isolation in an emergency.

Ever seen the firemen training video and documentation ? afaik Tesla is the only company to have such video and docs...
Loops are clearly labeled with bright orange labels. Pop a piece of plastic , snip-snip and you are safe. The contactors are open.




https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/pdfs/first_responders/2016_Models_S_Emergency_Responders_Guide_en.pdf

first two videos were shot in the factory .

[DougSpindler]

Free electrobn nice explanation.  Le me share with you the disadvantage of the design.  Mt wife was involved in a minor accident on the freeway in a Chevy Volt in late afternoon.  Airbags deployed and if what you are saying is correct the explosive charge disconnected the high voltage/drive train batteries.  No one was hurt.  The ICE car involved in the accident was damaged, but could be restarted and driven to the side of the freeway.  Her car could “start”, could be shifted into gear and wound not move.  There was no indication the drive train batteries were not disengaged.  Traffic on the freeway retuned to normal freeway speed with her disabled car in one of the middle lanes.  Batteries were fully charged so it could be moved.  All she could do is abandon the car and leave the emergency flashers on.  Highway patrol and towruck were on the way.  Just before it was completely dark, the 12v battery died which now left a dark disabled car in a lane of traffic.  This was an accident waiting to happen.  Luckily it’s didn’t.

While I understand the need to  disconnect the HV batteries in probably most accidents, there are times when this might not be the ideal solution. 

Do you know about the design of the Toyota where the California Highway Patrol Officer was killed with the stuck accelerator pedaL. Any idea why he could not shift the car into neutral or power the car off?  As a recall he was on the phone with the emergency operator saying he could not do either.  Seems crazy, but sounds like that was Toyta’s design.

[coppice]

Teslas seem to have a couple of "hack through the cables here" points for firemen to disconnect the power in an emergency, but they don't seem to have taken them very seriously. The labelling isn't good, and there is weak information on the car about what the emergency services need to do with those disconnect points. The Prius has been around a long time, and I think is the most mature family of cars with high voltage high current systems on board. How well do they handle high voltage isolation in an emergency.

Ever seen the firemen training video and documentation ? afaik Tesla is the only company to have such video and docs...
Loops are clearly labeled with bright orange labels. Pop a piece of plastic , snip-snip and you are safe. The contactors are open.

The existence of those videos shows there is a problem. As electric cars progress in the market do you really expect every emergency services worker in the world to have studied and remembered every car maker's video about how to make their cars safe, and be conversant with the procedure when the time comes, even for a model they rarely encounter?

If you look at review videos of Tesla cars, when they look at these accident related issues, the reviewers never seem too clear what the services people are supposed to do. It doesn't seem like these things are labelled all that well in practice.

[jh15]

When the Prius came out years ago, like windbag cables, important wires were colored, and way back then EMTs were at least meducated about high voltages.

I had my Tesla S a year when they came to fix a body shop repair in my driveway. I had always noticed right off when new, opening the froot (frunk in USA), a bright orange tag, like tags on airplanes to be paid attention to before takeoff.

While the car was torn apart, it looked like the relatively small gauge wires were to be cut there.

Internal to the battery is a major contractor I can here click, but also a pyrotechnic fuse.

I don't have the ludicrous mode, but I understand it lets you abuse  the battery for a short time where it would normally blow. I think a disclaimer to battery life involved. So a computerized fuse.
    A normal fuse has lots of problems in fast blow, overload time, and especially aging to engineer into a product.

So you have a muscle car, how much can you run it to its limit? Hopefully for enough chicks before you marry and need more seats.
Near Maine? I'll give you a ride and dare you not to buy a real EV soon.

[vk6zgo]

And how many time had people mixed up the accelerator pedal with the brake?  Or an older driver is backing out of a parking space and mows down a bunch of people after mistaking D for the letter R.

...which is why you should always reverse into a parking bay, and move out of it forwards.

Sorry, but that is one of my pet hates!

It wastes time, irritates everybody else who is trying to use the carpark, & is likely to cause "young drivers" to do antisocial things.
Us "older drivers" just sit there & grind our teeth!

But then, UK drivers always do strange things, like parking on the "wrong side " of the road (facing oncoming traffic).
They come to Australia, forget where they are, do that, & get a ticket!

As far as mixing up things, I must admit I once did that with a Renault R25 "T bar" automatic which I had only owned for a day.
The scale under the "T bar" was different to all the others I had driven, in that all the positions were squashed up at one end.
The R25 tried to go forward, but I always apply the brake before I select reverse "just in case".
Idling engine versus four wheel disc brakes?-----no contest!

But mixing the brake & accelerator pedals? That is something only a very inexperienced driver would do.
Even if we lost half our marbles, us "old farts" have "body memory" -- the pedals are like a body extension.

What did happen quite a bit was with people changing from a manual to an auto car, back in the days when manufacturers liked to put a huge brake pedal on their automatics, to allow drivers to use "left foot braking".

You would see someone indicate a turn then come to a screeching halt.

Normal procedure with a "stick shift" when I learnt, was to change down a gear before turning, so the driver would press what felt like the clutch, while putting their hand down to where the gear stick
should be.----SCREEECH!!!!

[free_electron]

Chevy Volt ...
Toyota ...

no comment. i don't know how those things are built . they may use different or similar. i don't know.
All i know is that my cars ( mine (x) and my wife's (s) ) have a HV contactor and pyrotechnic fuse. Something goes wrong : clip the cable.
In extreme situations it deactivates itself ( pyrotechnics)

Firemen go through regular training and EV's is one of them. As more and more of these cars hit the road they need to keep up too. Times change... Actually they don;t ... the first cars were always electrics ... until some guy figured out how to get repeat sales of some sticky goo he found in his backyard ...

[drussell]

...which is why you should always reverse into a parking bay, and move out of it forwards.

Sorry, but that is one of my pet hates!

It wastes time, irritates everybody else who is trying to use the carpark, & is likely to cause "young drivers" to do antisocial things.
Us "older drivers" just sit there & grind our teeth!

You have to either back into a parking stall or you have to back out.

Please explain how other drivers backing into a stall is more problematic for you than them backing out...   

[vk6zgo]

...which is why you should always reverse into a parking bay, and move out of it forwards.

Sorry, but that is one of my pet hates!

It wastes time, irritates everybody else who is trying to use the carpark, & is likely to cause "young drivers" to do antisocial things.
Us "older drivers" just sit there & grind our teeth!

You have to either back into a parking stall or you have to back out.

Please explain how other drivers backing into a stall is more problematic for you than them backing out...   

Simple, several cars are driving around in a parking area looking for a stall.
Normally, the front one sees a spot, & drives into it, whilst the others drive on to the next spot, where the process is repeated.

Now the other scenario, several cars are driving around in a parking area looking for a stall.
The first driver sees a spot, then drives past, & reverses into it.

The drivers following cannot see the stall, so assume the car will continue.
Suddenly, they are confronted by (almost always) a ginormous SUV or "people mover" reversing at them.

The driver usually stuffs it up on the first attempt, & takes several "goes" at it, before getting into the stall.

Reversing out?
The driver checks before reversing, & doesn't back up when there are cars approaching.(often, if there is one, it will stop & allow the reversing car out, in the hope of taking the stall just vacated.
The main lane around the car park is wider than a car space, so the manoeuvre is easier than backing into a narrow stall.

[nctnico]

Chevy Volt ...
Toyota ...

no comment. i don't know how those things are built . they may use different or similar. i don't know.

And that is where the problem is: are these systems mandatory or not? How about regulations where the driver has to be able to shut the engine down?

[ez24]

Run away car syndrome applies to both ICEs and EVs

The accident you are describing is a repeat of the one that happened with Toyota.  Can’t remember if it was the driver or passenger but one was a California Highway patrol officer.  He was on the phone with Highway Patrol dispatch saying the car he was in was out of control.  The accelerator was stuck and there was nothing they could do.  They could not turn the car off as it was a push button car.  They gear shift leaver was locked in drive and could not be disengaged.  The brakes could not slow the car down.  The Highway patrol officer was telling the dispatcher everting they were tying to do to stop the car as the car just kept in accelerating.  I think the car finally got up to around 120 mph when they lost control of the car and the Highway patrol officer and the companion in the car drove off the road and were killed.

This incident lead to the Toyota recall about 10 year ago.  Remember Toyota said it was loose the floor mat that caused the accelerator pedal to get stuck.  But in reality wasn’t it faulty software?

Please correct any inaccuracies in my story.

I live near the place of the accident.  The freeway the HP driver dead-ended at the bottom of a hill and he drove straight into a river bed (trees).  I believe three or four were killed.  Before this happened the same thing happened to me in my Tacoma.  Without thinking I reached down and pulled up the floor mat. I felt the accelerator pedal sticking down.  I removed the mat and never gave it another thought.  If the driver had pushed the button for several seconds (3 ?), the motor would have turned off, or pull up the accelerator, or taken another freeway (Hwy 8 )   FYI he was driving a loaner car while his was being serviced.  I think it was a Lexus.

I see the biggest failure is not telling drivers how to turn off the engine in an emergency.

[nfmax]

...which is why you should always reverse into a parking bay, and move out of it forwards.

Sorry, but that is one of my pet hates!

It wastes time, irritates everybody else who is trying to use the carpark, & is likely to cause "young drivers" to do antisocial things.
Us "older drivers" just sit there & grind our teeth!

You have to either back into a parking stall or you have to back out.

Please explain how other drivers backing into a stall is more problematic for you than them backing out...   

Simple, several cars are driving around in a parking area looking for a stall.
Normally, the front one sees a spot, & drives into it, whilst the others drive on to the next spot, where the process is repeated.

Now the other scenario, several cars are driving around in a parking area looking for a stall.
The first driver sees a spot, then drives past, & reverses into it.

The drivers following cannot see the stall, so assume the car will continue.
Suddenly, they are confronted by (almost always) a ginormous SUV or "people mover" reversing at them.

The driver usually stuffs it up on the first attempt, & takes several "goes" at it, before getting into the stall.

Reversing out?
The driver checks before reversing, & doesn't back up when there are cars approaching.(often, if there is one, it will stop & allow the reversing car out, in the hope of taking the stall just vacated.
The main lane around the car park is wider than a car space, so the manoeuvre is easier than backing into a narrow stall.

Car parks are inevitably a mix of people driving cars and people walking to & from them. It is much more dangerous to hit a pedestrian than to hit another car. The problem with the backing out is that the first move a car makes is in reverse, and rear visibility is worse than forward. Not only is there a risk of the driver not seeing the pedestrian, the pedestrian is less likely to see the driver and realise the car is about to move.

This is one of the (very few) cases where 24-hour running lights actually improve safety, as they give a hint the car may be about to move. Using indicators (turn or hazard) also helps.

[Red Squirrel]

I always back into a space.  I hate backing OUT of a space.  Too hard to see if cars are coming and if the car has been parked for a while the windows will be full of snow/frost etc.  Yeah you should take it off but impossible to get it super clear so visibility is always going to be poor.   When backing in, any residual snow/frost etc will hopefully have melted by the time you get there from wherever you drove from.

[coppice]

A problem with backing into spaces is the back of the car is then against a wall or another car, and you can't get the stuff you are carrying in and out of the back of the car.

[free_electron]

Chevy Volt ...
Toyota ...

no comment. i don't know how those things are built . they may use different or similar. i don't know.

And that is where the problem is: are these systems mandatory or not? How about regulations where the driver has to be able to shut the engine down?

I don't think the clutch in a ICE is regulated as a safety feature.. what with automatic cars ? Most shifters these days are electric. ( paddle flaps)
What about cars that use electric-start-stop. ( they even stop the motor at red lights and restart when you go ... )  ?

Are those systems regulated ?
i don't know , maybe they are ... Maybe it's up to the car manufacturer ?

There will be interlocks int he system to prevent stuff from happening.

[free_electron]

...which is why you should always reverse into a parking bay, and move out of it forwards.

in ,many places that is illegal ! you need to park nose-in.

two reasons :
- scanning of license plates. Only the REAR license plate is the true plate holding the expiration sticker and / or certificate tag. The front one doesn't. Many places don't require a front one.
- emergency towing. Handbrakes work only on rear wheels. if a car needs to be moved : lift its rear wheels of the ground and roll it out. If a car is parked in reverse this becomes a problem.

[boffin]

Well, in the case of EV parking spots, I always back in, because my charging port is at the rear.

Wait a minute, I pretty much always back in anyway.

[IanMacdonald]

Please explain how other drivers backing into a stall is more problematic for you than them backing out...   

Because if it's a van or hatchback you can't unload it. 

Of course an 'executive' would never think of that. They assume the only things you need to take out of a vehicle are your Rolex and your Armani briefcase.

[DougSpindler]

In some cities such as Washington DC one must back into a space, it's the law.  Other states you pull straight in.  If I'm not mistaken bank robbers always back into parking spaces.

[ahbushnell]

...which is why you should always reverse into a parking bay, and move out of it forwards.

in ,many places that is illegal ! you need to park nose-in.

two reasons :
- scanning of license plates. Only the REAR license plate is the true plate holding the expiration sticker and / or certificate tag. The front one doesn't. Many places don't require a front one.
- emergency towing. Handbrakes work only on rear wheels. if a car needs to be moved : lift its rear wheels of the ground and roll it out. If a car is parked in reverse this becomes a problem.

In the mountains of southern California they like people to back in.  That's because if there is a wild fire and a bunch of people leave at the same time it's easier to pull forward then to back into a stream of cars. 

[ebastler]

Could somebody please elaborate on the matter of backing into a parking space vs. pulling in straight ahead? Eight consecutive posts about this existential question are really only scratching the surface... Any anecdotes, case studies, personal experience please?

 

[coppice]

Could somebody please elaborate on the matter of backing into a parking space vs. pulling in straight ahead? Eight consecutive posts about this existential question are really only scratching the surface... Any anecdotes, case studies, personal experience please?

 

Sounds like someone backed out of the bed the wrong way this morning.

[DougSpindler]

Could somebody please elaborate on the matter of backing into a parking space vs. pulling in straight ahead? Eight consecutive posts about this existential question are really only scratching the surface... Any anecdotes, case studies, personal experience please?

 

Why do some people drive on the left side of the road and others drive on the right.  Isn't in the politicians who decide?