REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol

[marmad]

Ah, so you're saying "high" + "enter" means "enter the region above the high threshold" not "enter the region between the thresholds."  That explains why the manual calls it "Windows" (plural) trigger!  Yeah, everything does make sense with that meaning (except the "rising edge of the input" part of the manual.)  Thanks  

It definitively makes more sense when you think of it as 2 Windows with a dead-band - but the definitions are still un-intuitive. When I set a Trigger to happen on a Falling edge - I expect the trigger to take place ON the Falling edge. This doesn't work that way - so the names/terms should be different because they aren't working like every other Falling/Rising edge trigger.

Rigol is also using the same edge icons that they use with triggers that actually trigger on an edge - so not good. They should be different - or the icons should automatically invert depending on ENTER/EXIT selection.

Actually, instead of RISING EDGE, FALLING EDGE, and EITHER EDGE, those terms/icons should be TOPWIN and BTMWIN and BOTH - and then everything works as it should.

TOPWIN and ENTER triggers exactly when the signal enters the top window.
TOPWIN and EXIT triggers exactly when the signal exits the top window.
BTMWIN and ENTER triggers exactly when the signal enters the bottom window.
BTNWIN and EXIT triggers exactly when the signal exits the bottom window.

[Galaxyrise]

Actually, instead of RISING EDGE, FALLING EDGE, and EITHER EDGE, those terms/icons should be TOPWIN and BTMWIN and BOTH - and then everything works as it should.

Yeah, that's why I switched from "rising" to "high".  I like your names better; matches the "WndType" setting name, too.

I've been thinking about it a bit more, and I wonder why the Windows Trigger even has a WndType setting? With a TOPWIN or BTMWIN setting, it's just an edge trigger, isn't it?  What's the use case where someone would rather set that up using a Windows Trigger?

[marmad]

I've been thinking about it a bit more, and I wonder why the Windows Trigger even has a WndType setting? With a TOPWIN or BTMWIN setting, it's just an edge trigger, isn't it?  What's the use case where someone would rather set that up using a Windows Trigger?

Well, it's just the ability to have two different level settings instead of one. The DS2000 has 10 triggers which specify/allow 2 different levels, with 7 of those specifying/allowing a different channel for each level.

BTW, some people might not have noticed this, but there are 3 trigger types which AUTOMATICALLY use both channels (i.e. halving the sample rate) - whether you intentionally want to use both or not.

RUNT, WINDOWS, SLOPE: 2 levels - 1 possible channel can be specified as the trigger source.
DELAY: 2 levels - 2 channels ALWAYS used internally - but can be specified as the trigger source.
PATTERN, DURATION: 2 levels - 2 channels ALWAYS used internally - and can not be specified.
SETUP/HOLD, I2C, SPI, USB: 2 levels - 2 possible channels can be specified as the trigger source.

[van-c]

Perhaps the term "window" refers to a window of time that opens up rather than a geometric window.  WndType determines when the window opens-- not the time at which the signal trigger occurs.  But the trigger can only occur after the window has opened.  Trigger Position determines exactly when the signal trigger actually occurs following the window opening.  Initially, the window is closed.

For example, for the rising-edge WndType, the window opens when the signal level passes above the high trigger level.  If ENTER trigger position is specified, the signal trigger occurs when the rising edge of the signal goes above the high level (which is as soon as the window opens);  if EXIT is specified, the signal trigger occurs after the window opens, but not until the signal passes below the upper level.

For the falling-edge WndType, the window opens when the signal level passes below the low trigger level.  If ENTER trigger position is specified, the signal trigger occurs when the falling edge of the signal goes below the low level (which is as soon as the window opens);  if EXIT is specified, the signal trigger occurs after the window opens, but not until the signal passes above the lower level.

The any-edge WndType and TIME trigger position follow similarly.

Does this make sense?

[marmad]

The any-edge WndType and TIME trigger position follow similarly.

Does this make sense?

Honestly, not too much. It seems like a convoluted way to describe or think about a trigger. Again, they are using the same icons they use with other triggers to show Edge triggering - and yet it's not triggering on those edges! My previous assertion that Rigol has just mislabeled/mistranslated the selections Rising Edge/Falling Edge seems to fit with two descriptions I Googled of Window Triggers:

Window trigger
This trigger detects the moment when the waveform enters or leaves a voltage range. This allows you to search for overvoltages and undervoltages at the same time. In Figure 10, a 5 volt power supply is monitored with thresholds of 4.5 and 5.5 volts. The window trigger would detect both the positive and negative excursions outside this range. The Direction control specifies whether the trigger operates when the signal enters the window, exits it, or both. The Threshold 1 and Threshold 2 controls define the upper and lower limits of the voltage window.

UppLev / LowLev also work as button names (instead of Rising Edge / Falling Edge) - or Over / Under.

Window triggering lets you define a window on your oscilloscope where the window boundaries are defined by low and high voltage thresholds and either "less than" or "greater than" time. You can then let the oscilloscope trigger when the waveform enters this window, exits this window, or when it is inside/outside of this window for too long or too short of time. This trigger allows you to filter out any noise that may occur on the bus so you can look at long term transient effects.

If Rigol wants to reproduce the Window trigger as specified by most other sources (which is a single defined Window), then the Enter / Exit button names need to be reversed - and the Rise / Fall names should be changed to one of the suggestions previously mentioned.

I'm betting this whole thing boils down to some Rigol employee misinterpreting/mistranslating something from English.

[marmad]

Hello freaks,

first of all, I know this board is discussing about sniffing on the I2C bus then rather of using the DSO. However so many people are there who are using the DSO. So I believe someone can answer my question very quick. I am adding a big sorry to write an off-topic question there.
My question is very simple: It is triggering problem
I am struggling with a measurement problem: I have a big power Generator who is generating 400Volts AC. The armature coil is driven by 15V DC.
Unfortunately sometimes the 400V is going to zero for 10 Seconds. After that, everything is OK for hours or days. I am trying to figure out the reason. For that I am monitoring on channel A the one 230V AC phase and on channel B the 15 DC. However how can I parametrize a trigger?  I want to store the "event" of the two Voltages. At the moment I do not what the reason for the problem is. I do  not know if the 15DC is going to zero or the 400V before.
My idea is to store the event of the power drop-out. The DSO should stop after that event the acquisition.
i can not sit hours or days on the DSO to wait for the drop-out event. The problem is the event is very short, only 10 Sec. It can happen in the middle of the night. 

Thank you so much for our help. Any sorry again for the off-topic story.
 MartyMC

Welcome, Marty!

Some (or all) of this may be obvious, but I'll write it anyway (in case there are others who can benefit):

You'll want to use either Single Shot mode or Frame (Segment) Recording - either one will store the event.
If you use the full 56 M sample size @ 1s/div - you'll get a reasonably detailed view of 14 seconds (7s pre/post trigger). Don't forget to adjust the horizontal trigger position if you want a different division between pre/post-trigger information (e.g. if you only want 1 second pre-trigger, adjust the h.trigger position 6 divs left).
As far as your trigger goes, I assume if the AC goes out, the 15V will go out as well (or vice-versa)? If so, for capture purposes, it doesn't really matter which one initiates the event - as long as you capture enough pre-trigger data to include it. So as long as you calculate the maximum amount of time it takes for an AC dropout to drop the 15V, you can just trigger using a Falling Edge trigger on the 15V. Correct me if I'm wrong with my assumptions - otherwise another option is to use one of the pattern triggers with both channels as sources.

I hope some of this is helpful for you.

[Wim13]

If Rigol wants to reproduce the Window trigger as specified by most other sources (which is a single defined Window), then the Enter / Exit button names need to be reversed - and the Rise / Fall names should be changed to one of the suggestions previously mentioned.

i dont agree, read your post careful,

T2 is a window and T1 is a window,

if rise =true and exit=true,
then the T2 window is all that is >= T2 level
then the T1 window is all that is >= T1 level

so the first event is when a signal enters window T2, then if next sample is bigger
then window T2 is true;

If the signal rises futher: then when input == level T1, it ENTERs window T1.....
if the signal grows further it is still in window T1

Then if the signal goes down....( not rise)... and it crosses the boundery of T1, it EXITs window T1

So in my opinion Rigol is correct, in enter en exit..

[marmad]

If Rigol wants to reproduce the Window trigger as specified by most other sources (which is a single defined Window), then the Enter / Exit button names need to be reversed - and the Rise / Fall names should be changed to one of the suggestions previously mentioned.

i dont agree, read your post careful,

T2 is a window and T1 is a window,

So in my opinion Rigol is correct, in enter en exit..

  Read my post again carefully - notice the bold section above. All other descriptions of Window triggers online talk about it as ONE window - in the middle. My final point addressed that: if Rigol wanted their trigger to follow the standard description of a Window trigger.

Otherwise, if they want to define it as two windows with a dead-band (as mentioned before), they just need to change the name/icons of Rising and Falling (which are a mistake).

[Wim13]

Well some google, lots of different window systems are used:

on the ni site : Window Triggering: A window trigger occurs when a signal either enters or leaves a window you specify.

and that says it all, the window you specify...,

But i found this strange: see picture, i does not use T2 for trigger in this picture,
just using T1..., i think this is not correct..

[marmad]

on the ni site : Window Triggering: A window trigger occurs when a signal either enters or leaves a window you specify.

The pertinent bit here is "A window" - in other words, a single window - which is how everyone (but Rigol) defines a Window trigger.

But i found this strange: see picture, i does not use T2 for trigger in this picture,
just using T1..., i think this is not correct..

I'm telling you - they have the wrong name for the buttons! In your image, if instead of "Rising Edge" Icon button it was labelled "TopWindow" or "Over" or "Above", then the trigger would make perfect sense to what it's doing: Exiting the Top/Over/Above section.

[marmad]

I've now officially changed the names in the new (currently beta) version of RUU so that the trigger actually makes sense

[Pasky]

Question on the usage of the DS2072.  I've found one thing extremely annoying issue, but perhaps there's a course/fine setting for the position knob that I'm unaware of.  When changing the vertical scale on the channel, I find it extremely annoying turning the position knob to find my signal again.  When I want to look at a 5V dc signal, and have it set to 50mV, I find myself turning the vertical positioning knob for what seems like forever.  Is there any way to do this faster?  I know you can press the knob button to get to 0V, but even that can take forever going from 0V to 5V in such tiny increments.  Thanks.

[marmad]

Question on the usage of the DS2072.  I've found one thing extremely annoying issue, but perhaps there's a course/fine setting for the position knob that I'm unaware of.  When changing the vertical scale on the channel, I find it extremely annoying turning the position knob to find my signal again.  When I want to look at a 5V dc signal, and have it set to 50mV, I find myself turning the vertical positioning knob for what seems like forever.  Is there any way to do this faster?  I know you can press the knob button to get to 0V, but even that can take forever going from 0V to 5V in such tiny increments.  Thanks.

Well, it would be impossible to look at a 5V DC signal centered on the screen at the 50mV setting; the offset isn't big enough:

500uV/div to 50mV/div: ± 2V
51mV/div to 200mV/div: ± 10V
205mV/div to 2V/div: ± 50V
2.05V/div to 10V/div: ± 100V

...but I understand your frustration. The problem is that there's no way to change the point you scale from to the trigger level (like you can for horizontal position). A slightly-quicker workaround is to turn the scale up to the highest level (10V), move the signal all the way down (which, at 10V, is only 6 divs below screen edge: -100V), then turn the scale back to what you want (e.g. 200mV), then slightly up or down from there. This works fairly well for factors up to about 25x - but bigger ones require a lot of spinning the knob again.

Do you have the NI-VISA drivers installed and run Windows? If so, I could make you a tiny utility that will move it for you based on the trigger level.

[Pasky]

Yes I do actually and I use your software already, it's such a god send to capture the wave forms so easily so I can share them with my friends and other experts online.  If you could make that tool, something as simple as entering the voltage positioning manually on the PC, I'd be forever grateful, or even add it to your existing software would be awesome as well, no need to have two pieces of software open.

[Wim13]

I've now officially changed the names in the new (currently beta) version of RUU so that the trigger actually makes sense

Nice, but the point i wanted to make in my last post, T2 is totaly useless, is does nothing
also in your picture above, it makes no difference whatever you set T2 to, it will always trigger..

So the bug is that there is no T2 window, only a T1 window..

[marmad]

Nice, but the point i wanted to make in my last post, T2 is totaly useless, is does nothing
also in your picture above, it makes no difference whatever you set T2 to, it will always trigger..

So the bug is that there is no T2 window, only a T1 window..

Huh?    I don't understand what you mean. In my image, everything works exactly as it should with the name changes I've used.

[Wim13]

Nice, but the point i wanted to make in my last post, T2 is totaly useless, is does nothing
also in your picture above, it makes no difference whatever you set T2 to, it will always trigger..

So the bug is that there is no T2 window, only a T1 window..

Huh?    I don't understand what you mean. In my image, everything works exactly as it should with the name changes I've used.

Nothing wrong with your post or image, but something wrong with Rigol..

Try to use level T2 for something you measure...., you will see that is does nothing..
it has no infuence on the measurement

Edit: if you select type down, then T1 is useless
if you selct type rise , then T2 is useless

[marmad]

Try to use level T2 for something you measure...., you will see that is does nothing..
it has no infuence on the measurement

Sorry, man - it works fine on my DSO. See attached images.

[Wim13]

test the following, in your top picture change the level of T2, see if something changes..
you can even turn it of the screen .. and nothing changes..

[marmad]

test the following, in your top picture change the level of T2, see if something changes..
you can even turn it of the screen .. and nothing changes..

Why would it? That wouldn't make any sense: it's not related to the Top Window - it's only related to the Bottom window. My first image has the DSO set to trigger when entering the *top* window.

[Wim13]

test the following, in your top picture change the level of T2, see if something changes..
you can even turn it of the screen .. and nothing changes..

Why would it? That wouldn't make any sense: it's not related to the Top Window - it's only related to the Bottom window. My first image has the DSO set to trigger when entering the *top* window.

So what is then the use of using two levels, if ONLY ONE is been used...

[marmad]

Edit: if you select type down, then T1 is useless
if you selct type rise , then T2 is useless

Forget thinking about them as RISING EDGE and FALLING EDGE - that's a mistranslation by Rigol. It's TOP WINDOW / BOTTOM WINDOW - or ABOVE / BELOW.

So what is then the use of using two levels, if ONLY ONE is been used...

Window trigger
This trigger detects the moment when the waveform enters or leaves a voltage range. This allows you to search for overvoltages and undervoltages at the same time. In Figure 10, a 5 volt power supply is monitored with thresholds of 4.5 and 5.5 volts. The window trigger would detect both the positive and negative excursions outside this range. The Direction control specifies whether the trigger operates when the signal enters the window, exits it, or both. The Threshold 1 and Threshold 2 controls define the upper and lower limits of the voltage window.

[Wim13]

Yes , i know the definition, but my point is that it is NOT WORKING, in the RIGOL

According to the definition, the signal has to cross T2 ( in rise) to trigger the first event,
and then crossing T2 triggers...

BUT in the RIGOL trun T2 down to the signal so, it does not cross T2, just T1, and it still works..., that is NO window......

[marmad]

Yes , i know the definition, but my point is that it is NOT WORKING, in the RIGOL

According to the definition, the signal has to cross T2 ( in rise) to trigger the first event,
and then crossing T2 triggers...

BUT in the RIGOL trun T2 down to the signal so, it does not cross T2, just T1, and it still works..., that is NO window......

No, it seems you don't understand the definition - otherwise you would understand it's working. The signal NEVER has to cross T2 - unless you tell it you want to trigger when it enters or exits the bottom window - or -  either window. The attached image shows trigger on ENTER EITHER WINDOW:

[Wim13]

Well oke, no problem,  then we differ from opinion about that.......