REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol

[mohandes]

hi to all guru
any people here have SDS2072 and DS2072 ? i want if have it take photo in test with same wave in both and set here.
regards

[Teneyes]

Hi All, 
In the past when I would insert a USB stick with a DS2000 '.GEL' file the DSO would display the version number and prompt "OK" to install ,but now It will only prompt if it is a new FW version. see Pix.
Has anyone else seen this?
When I go back to older version (boot/help), I do not get the update prompt just the 'USB device detected'.

  Also
Has anyone ever seen  all:
       100M
       200M
       300M Bandwidth  options displayed like in Pix

[ted572]

Hi All, 
In the past when I would insert a USB stick with a DS2000 '.GEL' file the DSO would display the version number and prompt "OK" to install ,but now It will only prompt if it is a new FW version. see Pix.
Has anyone else seen this?
When I go back to older version (boot/help), I do not get the update prompt just the 'USB device detected'.

  Also
Has anyone ever seen  all:
       100M
       200M
       300M Bandwidth  options displayed like in Pix

     Teneyes:

Re. first item (with USB Drive inserted: Yes I see this also now.

Re. second item (with 100MHz, 200MHz, and 300MHz:  Yes you will have this if you install the 100MHz BW, 200MHz BW, and them the 300MHz BW Options in that order.  What I like about this is having the standard 20MHz BW Limit, plus !00MHz BW Limit, and possibly 200MHz BW Limit available if 300MHz is installed.  Had you noticed the added BW Limit functions?

Do you have a DS2000 (non A version?), and if so is the 300MHz Option working OK for you?  Please see 'marmad's post in Reply #2524 at >  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg467738/#msg467738
Have you experienced this?  I have a DS2000 (non A) and I had NOT seen this issue, so I'm wondering if he may have had something else wrong, such as having settings with Power Up set for 'Last', rather than 'Default', which can result in getting into a loop of unsuccessful reboots if you experience a lockup, or an insidious fault condition.

Anyway I removed the 300MHz BW Option for now until I hear more about this form either 'marmad' or others.

The DS2000A is fine with the 300MHz BW Option, and I thought that the DS2000 (non A) was also OK now starting with Firmware v.3 until I saw 'marmad's' post.


    marmad:

I would appreciate hearing more from you on the issues you had. Have you learned anything else since your experiences with the DS2000, FR v.3, and the 300MHz BW Option?

   Thank you for any information you can add since your post in Reply 2524, Ted552

[marmad]

    marmad:

I would appreciate hearing more from you on the issues you had. Have you learned anything else since your experiences with the DS2000, FR v.3, and the 300MHz BW Option?

   Thank you for any information you can add since your post in Reply 2524, Ted552

To clarify some things (and I posted this over at the 'Sniffing' thread, too):

First of all - in respect to using the "300MHz" BW option - it makes NO difference if you have a DS2000 or DS/MSO2000A - other than you have the 50 ohm input impedance choice. Aside from that, as far as I've seen, Rigol did not make any major changes to the front-end.

Secondly, to all the people who believe they are magically getting a perfectly-capable "300MHz" DSO just because they put in some option codes: look at all the DSO models from highly-respected test-equipment manufacturers (Agilent, Hameg, Tektronix, etc) - do you see any 2GSa/s DSOs with a higher than 200MHz BW? No, you don't - because there are mathematical reasons why it doesn't really work well. Rigol (and the other Chinese companies) have not invented some new wonderful method for squeezing more BW out of less sample rate - they are, in fact, delivering DSOs that will have problems reproducing those kind of BW waveforms accurately at certain settings (i.e. both channels on) - period.

As long as you understand these problems, fine. But again: they are identical for both DS2000 and DS2000A - it doesn't matter which model you have.

[Additional]:
Now, in terms of the continual hanging problem - I haven't seen it happen again since I removed the 300MHz option and downgraded to v.2 - then upgraded back to v.3 later after my work was done. But I was working with Roll mode and some rather atypical settings - so it's possible that the same settings with v.3 but without 300MHz would also cause the hanging - I just haven't been able to reproduce it since. So at this point, it's unknown if it's just a bug that exists in v.3 with certain settings - or is linked to 300MHz option being installed. But I have to say, before I ever began using the 300MHz option, the DS2000 crashed or hung fairly infrequently - but it's happened many more times with it installed. But more info is definitely needed to pinpoint the source of this problem.

[Orange]

If you  install the 300MHz option on a DS2000, your scope's rise-time is indeed lowered, however you also gain a fair amount of overshoot on pulses. The overshoot measured with a TEK 284 (70 pico sec. step) was in the order of 15%. So I decided that this is not acceptable for me, and turned it off.

The front end of a DS2000 is simply not designed to cope with this. Therefore Rigol has limited the bandwidth of the first preamp.
I don't know about the DS2000A models, I never measured them.

[ted572]

Install - Uninstall Rigol's Options using UltraSigma

[darrylp]

If you  install the 300MHz option on a DS2000, your scope's rise-time is indeed lowered, however you also gain a fair amount of overshoot on pulses. The overshoot measured with a TEK 284 (70 pico sec. step) was in the order of 15%. So I decided that this is not acceptable for me, and turned it off.

this 15% more overshoot is from the 200MHz set DS2000,  but until you know what the rise signal should look like ( measured on a much higher bandwidth scope ) then maybe seeing an overshoot increase is actually right ?   the lower bandwidth just wouldn't have the ability to capture it ?

[ted572]

    marmad:

I would appreciate hearing more from you on the issues you had. Have you learned anything else since your experiences with the DS2000, FR v.3, and the 300MHz BW Option?

   Thank you for any information you can add since your post in Reply 2524, Ted552

[Additional]:
Now, in terms of the continual hanging problem - I haven't seen it happen again since I removed the 300MHz option and downgraded to v.2 - then upgraded back to v.3 later after my work was done. But I was working with Roll mode and some rather atypical settings - so it's possible that the same settings with v.3 but without 300MHz would also cause the hanging - I just haven't been able to reproduce it since. So at this point, it's unknown if it's just a bug that exists in v.3 with certain settings - or is linked to 300MHz option being installed. But I have to say, before I ever began using the 300MHz option, the DS2000 crashed or hung fairly infrequently - but it's happened many more times with it installed. But more info is definitely needed to pinpoint the source of this problem.

Thank you very much 'marmad' for the detailed information you provided.  I'm very grateful for all the work you have done with the DS2000, etc. and so generously shared with us.

    Thanks again, Ted572   

[Orange]

If you  install the 300MHz option on a DS2000, your scope's rise-time is indeed lowered, however you also gain a fair amount of overshoot on pulses. The overshoot measured with a TEK 284 (70 pico sec. step) was in the order of 15%. So I decided that this is not acceptable for me, and turned it off.

this 15% more overshoot is from the 200MHz set DS2000,  but until you know what the rise signal should look like ( measured on a much higher bandwidth scope ) then maybe seeing an overshoot increase is actually right ?   the lower bandwidth just wouldn't have the ability to capture it ?

Not in this case; the Tek 284 has no overshoot and a rise time of 70 ps.

[Teneyes]

this 15% more overshoot is from the 200MHz set DS2000,  but until you know what the rise signal should look like ( measured on a much higher bandwidth scope ) then maybe seeing an overshoot increase is actually right ?   the lower bandwidth just wouldn't have the ability to capture it ?

Not in this case; the Tek 284 has no overshoot and a rise time of 70 ps.

I wish to point out something that is important to this discussion.
A Rigol DSO user must be aware of the SInx/x interpolation

Below I show you 2 displays, and ask "Which is Better??? "

Check out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibbs_phenomenon

[Teneyes]

"Which is Better??? "

As you can see by the flat traces that I manually created the data for the waveforms and re-loaded the sample data into the DSO and the DSO created the Traces, always with SinX/X interpolation.

 
1.  In the first display the sample data is at one level and then jumps to  the Higher level in one sample period (500ps).
 NOTE how the SinX/X interpolation displays  a pre and post step ringing.

To explain in more detail. I saved a waveform file from the DS2000 (at 140pts/disp)) to a USB Stick.
I then transfered this file to a PC. I then used a Hex Editor to put in the Sample data into the files that I wanted the DSO to Display. , There is NO real voltages measurement Data.
I set the first 70 data samples for 1 div above the bottom of the display
then
I set next 70 data samples for 1 div below  the top of the display.
I then loaded the waveform file into the DSO (w/USB)
The ringing you see is the result of the DSO trying to make a sine wave with the SinX/X interpolation function. between the 140 Data Points at 500ps intervals


2. In the second display the step change of level was created for a smoothly change to resrtiction the SinX/X effect.
   See the Dot Samples in this Display.
You can see the Dots are a gradual curve at the bottom and top of the Step change in the Sample Data.

I think a lot of the overshoot when displaying a step change is the SinX/X function. A user has to look at where the sample dots are to determine if there was a real indication of overshoot.
The #1 display shows a 10% overshoot when there was absolutely Zero overshoot !

As for the Front end BW of the DS2000 we know that there is a Programmable BW Amplifier that has the selections of 20,100,200,350,650 and 750 MHz so I assume 300MHZ option opens up the BW to 350MHz

[Teneyes]

I hope the last 2 posts were Helpful. I'm not getting any questions or comments??

See pix for OLD wfm data for #2 display.  x'1B'=1 div,   x'B1'= 7 div

[miguelvp]

I think you explained it so well, no one has questions 

I agree on the phantom ringing, and dot mode usually shows you what is real vs what is extrapolated in vector mode.

[Orange]

"Which is Better??? "

As you can see by the flat traces that I manually created the data for the waveforms and re-loaded the sample data into the DSO and the DSO created the Traces, always with SinX/X interpolation.

 
1.  In the first display the sample data is at one level and then jumps to  the Higher level in one sample period (500ns).
 NOTE how the SinX/X interpolation displays  a pre and post step ringing.

To explain in more detail. I saved a waveform file from the DS2000 (at 140pts/disp)) to a USB Stick.
I then transfered this file to a PC. I then used a Hex Editor to put in the Sample data into the files that I wanted the DSO to Display. , There is NO real voltages measurement Data.
I set the first 70 data samples for 1 div above the bottom of the display
then
I set next 70 data samples for 1 div below  the top of the display.
I then loaded the waveform file into the DSO (w/USB)
The ringing you see is the result of the DSO trying to make a sine wave with the SinX/X interpolation function.


2. In the second display the step change of level was created for a smoothly change to resrtiction the SinX/X effect.
   See the Dot Samples in this Display.
You can see the Dots are a gradual curve at the bottom and top of the Step change in the Sample Data.

I think a lot of the overshoot when displaying a step change is the SinX/X function. A user has to look at where the sample dots are to determine if there was a real indication of overshoot.
The #1 display shows a 10% overshoot when there was absolutely Zero overshoot !

As for the Front end BW of the DS2000 we know that there is a Programmable BW Amplifier that has the selections of 20,100,200,350,650 and 750 MHz so I assume 300MHZ option opens up the BW to 350MHz

I  made test already a year ago; see post
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol%27s-internal-i2c-bus/msg247223/#msg247223

first picture.

This is NOT due to Sin X/ X interpolation. Besides that, the sin interpolation is only done between sample points.....
The first picture in this post was done running the scope bandwidth at 200MHz. you can already see how much overshoot it has. Test done at 300MHz show even more overshoot. NOT due to sin interpolation.
Another point is that if this was due to sin interpolation you would see the same overshoot/undershoot on the start of the pulse. This is clearly not the case on picture from my earlier post.

I'm not sure why people want to believe that that a $850 scope can measure 300MHz without severe signal distortion.....

For people that doubt my signal generator, it was checked with other equipment (1 GHz sampling system).
I have seen similar responses from a guy from Finland and those screen shots look very similar also with the same generator a Tektronix 284.

So as far I'm concerned this myth has been busted for the DS2000 series 

[Orange]

This is NOT due to Sin X/ X interpolation. Besides that, the sin interpolation is only done between sample points.....
The first picture in this post was done running the scope bandwidth at 200MHz. you can already see how much overshoot it has. Test done at 300MHz show even more overshoot. NOT due to sin interpolation.
.......
So as far I'm concerned this myth has been busted for the DS2000 series 

Thanks Orange.
I think you tested on the DS2072 Non-A , with older Firmware
My displays indicate nothing about the Analog specifications of the DSO.

Yes the vector display follows thorough the sample points and (SinX/X is used between data points)

I may have missed the post, is there any difference in the front end of the DS2000A to improve the spec.? (higher BW)  Although the latest FW allows the option for DS2302 (300MHz), was there any changes to the frontend in the DS2000A hardware for a faster response (with what overshoot??)

Besides Rigol sales , I doubt anyone has both DS2000 and DS2000A to do a test with same pulse.
and with only a few sample points/div  I think it would be hard to determine any difference when testing at the limits of the DSO specifications.

Just thinking,why I like 1ns/div?   I am old  and slow to multiple by 2, for 2ns/div   

Well that's a good question. I would assume that Rigol has adapted the front-end of the new DS2000A to compensate for the excessive overshoot with the 300MHz model. But I don't know for sure, I don't own one.

Reading lately other attempts of using the old firmware I think Rigol has changed the boot loader on the very latest production.  A new patched firmware is needed to get the serial number out of the 'dark places' of the scope.
Hopefully the guy's that did the patch of the firmware are still reading this, and will consider a newly patched firmware based up-on 3.01SP1

[marmad]

Well that's a good question. I would assume that Rigol has adapted the front-end of the new DS2000A to compensate for the excessive overshoot with the 300MHz model. But I don't know for sure, I don't own one.

Comparing pictures of the front ends from original DS2000 to HW v.2/early Model A show very little change (aside from the 50 Ohm impedance switch), although it's possible they've made further changes since.

[othello]

Hello All,

Can anyone be so kind and advise if i should upgrade to new firmware on my Rigol DS2202 ? It still has the original firmware and works fine as far as i can see. Now there are multiple firmware versions available but not sure if there is any advantage in upgrading. I do not wish to cripple what works with newer firmware so please feel free to let me know if it's worth the hassle.

Current firmware:

SW Version: 00.00.01
HW version: 1.0

Thank you !

[othello]

@ Othello
     You may wish to check the full firmware Version (see 3rd post here for -  F7 F6 F7 Util)
if you are at 00.00.01.00.05 then Yes update FW
See bug list ( post #3). you can always go back.

Thank you, i've updated to the latest firmware. I saw there was some known issue with CAN but i don't have that feature so it's no problem. Everything went smooth !

[Teneyes]

On a lighter side
A Rigol tames a wild One      yes wild

[marmad]

On a lighter side
A Rigol tames a wild One      yes wild

Nice - it got me wondering just exactly how you set up that shoot 

[chickenHeadKnob]

@Teneyes: I am guessing you live in the toronto area. Smartest Racoon's in the world, probably an urban sub-species by now. They got that way from the evolutionary pressure of having to figure out how to break into peoples garbage. Not sure what that says about Rigol. Maybe a future Rigol hacker enhancer in the making?

[marmad]

@Teneyes: I am guessing you live in the toronto area.

I think he's about 4000km west of Toronto.

[Rory]

@Teneyes: I am guessing you live in the toronto area.

I think he's about 4000km west of Toronto.

And about a kilometer higher in elevation too. Lovely place, wondering if we have time to visit next month.

[Sparky]

On a lighter side
A Rigol tames a wild One      yes wild

Very fun Teneyes!  Thanks for the post!    I hope your DS2000 didn't get too banged up by the furry admirer! 

[Teneyes]

Rigol appreciates