Author Topic: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope  (Read 2059522 times)

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Offline metrologist

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3150 on: November 11, 2016, 12:31:32 am »
I can't recall ever using a trig out from a scope anyway. Is this something other's use or useful in a particular application? I'm not seeing it...

It's for linking multiple devices together. If you've never done that then you probably never used it.

On the DS1054Z it also outputs 'fail' pulses when you're doing pass/fail testing. You could use it to sound an alarm or something.

Thanks, but I understand that. Normally I would not use a scope as a trigger since it is a device that is already being triggered. I'd use whatever triggered the scope to trigger whatever else I wanted triggered. I probably just have not gotten into a situation that would require a signal from the scope. Perhaps something more complicated like with the advanced triggers would apply.
 

Offline metrologist

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3151 on: November 11, 2016, 12:37:01 am »
I just wish Rigol had included the jitter in the trigger output specifications.  To do otherwise is misleading.

Do they even publish a trig out spec?
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3152 on: November 11, 2016, 03:41:32 am »
I just wish Rigol had included the jitter in the trigger output specifications.  To do otherwise is misleading.

Do they even publish a trig out spec?

Not really.  All they say is:

A signal which reflects the current oscilloscope capture rate can be output from
[Trigger Out] connector each time a trigger is generated by the oscilloscope. If this
signal is connected to a waveform display device to measure the frequency, the
measurement result is equal to the current capture rate.


At least to me, that description does not match the concept of "trigger output" but Rigol does things their own way.  There is nothing about delay, jitter, or even signal levels.  Will it drive TTL levels into 50 ohms?  Who knows.
 

Offline MrWolf

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3153 on: November 11, 2016, 01:21:30 pm »
OMG then I basically wasted about 400€ on Z...   :palm: Now looking at Pico specs...
https://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope/2000/picoscope-2000-specifications
Horizontal - Sample jitter:
"3 ps RMS typical" for 2208B and "30 ps RMS typical" for even most basic 100€ model!
Is it same "jitter spec" I assume? Edit: not same
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 01:41:31 pm by MrWolf »
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3154 on: November 11, 2016, 01:24:23 pm »
OMG then I basically wasted about 400€ on Z...   :palm: Now looking at Pico specs...
https://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope/2000/picoscope-2000-specifications
"3 ps RMS typical" for 2208B and "30 ps RMS typical" for even most basic 100€ model!
Is it same "jitter spec" I assume?

No it's not.. Those are specs for scope timebase... Not trigger..

 

Offline MrWolf

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3155 on: November 11, 2016, 01:35:03 pm »
No it's not.. Those are specs for scope timebase... Not trigger..

Ok, any idea what is the same timebase spec for Z? I'm not Pico salesman I'm just trying to understand what I did buy...
Currently I have Z(ero) trust in it above 25MHz...
Yesterday did read 1-70 pages of this thread - already gearing up to buy 100MHz lowpass filters... (+100EUR).
 

Offline ProBang2

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3156 on: November 11, 2016, 02:13:45 pm »

[...] Yesterday did read 1-70 pages of this thread [...]

The pages 1 - 115 don´t matter anymore. Problems were solved with the last update.
Major themes of the last 12 pages:
- Should I do the update?
- How to update?
- How to hack the scope?

So, calm down and have fun with your new toy. You will be impressed for sure.
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3157 on: November 11, 2016, 02:19:19 pm »
No it's not.. Those are specs for scope timebase... Not trigger..

Ok, any idea what is the same timebase spec for Z? I'm not Pico salesman I'm just trying to understand what I did buy...
Currently I have Z(ero) trust in it above 25MHz...
Yesterday did read 1-70 pages of this thread - already gearing up to buy 100MHz lowpass filters... (+100EUR).

What are you talking about...

When you buy 100MHz scope that means BANDWIDTH of 100MHz..  Meaning signals with frequency spectrum of max 100MHz.

That means clean sine-wave of 100MHz or 10MHz signal with 10 harmonics with spectrum up to 100Mhz..

You cannot expect to see clean 50 MHz squarewave on any 100Mhz scope from ANY manufacturer... You need at least 7th harmonic  to see  edges start to resemble square, 9th harmonic even better... So that would mean for 50MHz squarewave you need scope that has 350-500MHz analog bandwith and then Nyquist up twice to 700-1000MS/sec (1GS per channel).

If you use DS1000Z on a single channel, it will have 1GS/sec, so it is more than capable of quality sampling of 100MHz bandwith...
And is as good as any 100MHz bandwith scope in that regard..
 

Offline MrWolf

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3158 on: November 11, 2016, 02:27:33 pm »
You cannot expect to see clean 50 MHz squarewave on any 100Mhz scope from ANY manufacturer..

I dont care about square. I do care about phase shifts between more-less pure sine waves on all channels at the same time (at 250MS/s max then).
What is expected jitter?
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3159 on: November 11, 2016, 02:50:26 pm »
There is no jitter  on screen..

 Jitter is on trigger out bnc connector on the back of the scope...

What you see on the screen is fine...
 

Online Fungus

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3160 on: November 11, 2016, 02:55:35 pm »
What is expected jitter?

On-screen jitter should be zero.

What frequencies will you be looking at? Some of the old curmudgeons around here would probably recommend a minimum sample-rate to frequency ratio, just to be sure the sin(x)/x interpolation works beautifully.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 03:02:08 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline TurboTom

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3161 on: November 11, 2016, 06:59:33 pm »
Oh well, I hope I didn't confuse the newbies too much with my testing of the trigger output characteristics of the Rigol scopes...

Fungus is spot-on, in everyday's use, this trigger out jitter is completely irrelevant. It only comes into play if you want to synchronize some other test equipment on the trigger event of the Oscilloscope (like for example an external logic analyzer).

To understand why there is that trigger out jitter on oscilloscopes with an all-digital trigger, let me try to give a simplified explanation: Let's only focus on the "traditional" edge trigger. In case of the classic analog oscilloscope, the trigger circuitry consists of a comparator which has fed the (amplified/attenuated) input signal to its non-inverting input while the inverting input is connected to an adjustable DC voltage which defines the trigger level. Let's assume the timebase is in "hold" mode, i.e. waiting for the trigger signal. Now whenever the input signal exceeds the preset trigger leve, the comparator's output will change state from logical 0 to logical 1. This will start the time base and initiate the sweep. This was for "positive" trigger edges, in case of negative edge selected, the signal of the comparator is inverted.

Fortunately, in the digital world, the situation is more comfortable and we don't only see the signal "after" the trigger event (which was possible on analog scopes to some degree as well due to analog delay lines before the vertical signal was fed to the deflectrion plates of the oscilloscope's cathode ray tube) but we can rather have the trigger event right in the center of the screen. This is arranged by sampling the input data to memory all the time and only "looking" at the memory contents right at the time the trigger event is recognized by a digital magnitude comparator (the digital resemblance of an analog comparator).

Now the problem is the following: The sampling engine (ADC, buffer addressing and transfer logic) is screaming along, let´s say at 1GHz (1G sample per second) while the remaining logic cannot run at this speed. Let's assume, the FPGA (the component the trigger logic is implemented in) can run at 125MHz (1/8 the sampling frequency). In order to keep up with the speed of the sampling engine, the trigger logic will have to be parallelized, i.e. there are eight magnitude comparators that look at eight samples of the input signal at one time. If the cicuitry identifies a trigger event in one of the samples, it "knows" how to map the recorded samples on the screen since it can identify which one of the eight magnitude comparators provided the relevant information. Yet, the trigger out line will only be switched after all eight "bins" have been analyzed since the FPGA core can only react synchronously to its main 125MHz cycle. And this means that the "real" trigger event has happened somewhere within this interval which happens to be 8ns in case of the figures assumed in this example, which correlates to the jitter of the trigger out measurements found on the DS/MSO1000Z and DS/MSO2000 oscilloscopes.

The jitter of the displayed waveform on the screen will be much less and should be in the ballpark of plus or minus half a sampling cycle, i.e. +-500ps in case of the DS1000Z with one channel active, if no other waveform approximation is being done before processing the trigger.

The sampling clock PLL-loop related jitter that was a problem with the DS1000Z and DS2000 series several years ago (which was a design flaw and has been corrected with a firmware update a long time ago) manifested itself as a waveform jitter on the screen if the viewed portion of the waveform was displayed after a considerable delay time after the trigger event, i.e. after many periods of the internal sampling clock of the oscilloscope had passed. It just looks the same as if the measured signal had some phase jitter, and that's basically the problem in this case, for one cannot be sure if the problem lies in the measured signal or if it's a defective oscilloscope. Only a known accurate low phase-noise source permits to evaluate the accuracy of the oscilloscope's internal clock(s). But once again, this problem had been solved and unless some firmware update should "break" the fix again, was an issue of the past.

I hope this helps to enlighten the situation a little.

Cheers,
Thomas
 

Offline metrologist

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3162 on: November 11, 2016, 07:22:13 pm »
Good explanation. How does the circuit know which of the 8 magnitude comparitors sampled the event if they are all looking at the signal at the same time? Seems they'd have to be sequenced at the sampling rate and not parallel.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3163 on: November 11, 2016, 07:33:53 pm »
Good explanation. How does the circuit know which of the 8 magnitude comparitors sampled the event if they are all looking at the signal at the same time? Seems they'd have to be sequenced at the sampling rate and not parallel.

Yes, they're sequenced/multiplexed.

Watch this video at 21:00 to see why that doesn't matter on a bandwidth-limited signal with sin(x)/x reconstruction:



 

Offline metrologist

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3164 on: November 11, 2016, 07:52:45 pm »
I'll have to watch that later, but there has to be a clock that multiplexes them at the sampling rate (1GHz). It seemed from the description that the trigger circuit does not run that fast.
 

Offline TurboTom

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3165 on: November 11, 2016, 08:19:54 pm »
I may not have been completely clear about the trigger engine: The input data is first sampled into memory (or a fast buffer) at 1GSa/s -- this has to be arranged in rather fast / patially parallel logic. After that, the parallel trigger engine looks at bunches of eight samples and processes them in parallel at 125MHz (in the given example). Since evey single of the eight  trigger magnitude comparators is processing one memory location, the trigger point can be clearly located within the bunches of eight. But since the processing (and trigger output control) takes place at the digital logic speed (125MHz), the jitter of 8ns exists at the trigger output. At least, that's the way I would explain the results of my tests.

I'm aware of the reconstruction options of the sampled signal by sinx/x approximation but I doubt that this can efficiently be done before the trigger stage, I'ld rather say at best a linear approach might be possible to reduce trigger jitter of the displayed waveform if it's done "on-the fly". Yet it's much more likely that there is some post-trigger processing and sinx/x approximation taking place to just shift the trace to be displayed on the screen a few dots left or right to minimize trigger jitter with reference to the pre-determined trigger point. Anyway, this only needs to be done at the waveform display speed and not at the speed the frontend is racing along.

Cheers,
Thomas
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3166 on: November 11, 2016, 09:25:36 pm »
I will that add that without additional hardware like a variable delay line, it does not matter if the FPGA knows the exact trigger position or not because it can only create a trigger output signal aligned with its own internal clock signal.  So it does not matter if sin(x)/x reconstruction happens before the trigger qualifier or not; a more accurate determination of the real trigger point will not make the trigger output more precise.

GPS receivers which include a 1 pulse per second output have the same problem.  They use a basic digital clock of about 20 to 40 MHz (*) so while every second they may have calculated the 1 pulse per second timing to within nanoseconds limited by the various errors, the output pulse will be off by 10s of nanoseconds because it is always aligned with the processing clock.  A GPS receiver intended for timing will report the difference between GPS time and output pulse so an external device can take this into account.  Some receivers phase lock their processing clock to GPS time so they can produce the pulse in exactly the correct spot.

It would be interesting to see if the delay to the trigger output depends on the trigger type.  Edge triggers are the simplest to implement but what about the advanced triggers?

On the subject of the jitter caused by Rigol's mistake in the sampling clock PLL, was it significant or not?  Well, let me put it this way.  I ran the same exact test on my delayed sweep analog oscilloscopes at 5us and beyond and they had no visible jitter despite using a completely analog sweep delay which is to be expected; their typical delayed sweep jitter specifications are 1:20k to 1:50k while the Rigol was displaying something like 1:2k to 1:5k or an order of magnitude more jitter.

(*) A higher frequency of operation would just waste power.
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3167 on: November 11, 2016, 09:56:48 pm »
I just tried and for all other complex trigger types except "timeout"  "trig out" pulse relative to trigger event spread is cca 5ns..
Funny enough, for said "timeout" there is no jitter at all....

 

Offline David Hess

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3168 on: November 12, 2016, 12:08:34 am »
I just tried and for all other complex trigger types except "timeout"  "trig out" pulse relative to trigger event spread is cca 5ns..
Funny enough, for said "timeout" there is no jitter at all....

I am not sure what "cca" means but was the latency different?
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3169 on: November 12, 2016, 12:22:43 am »
I just tried and for all other complex trigger types except "timeout"  "trig out" pulse relative to trigger event spread is cca 5ns..
Funny enough, for said "timeout" there is no jitter at all....

I am not sure what "cca" means but was the latency different?

Sorry for that, cca is circa , approximately....  No it was pretty much same, except for that "timeout" trigger..
 Go figure...
 

Offline TurboTom

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3170 on: November 12, 2016, 01:24:01 am »
I did the same test with my new test setup that uses the second scope for actually measuring the delay/jitter: I found basically similar jitter figures in all trigger modes of the DS1000Z (that I tested) asin edge trigger mode, also in timeout mode. The funny thing is that if the timeout delay gets really close to the edge of the pulse (i.e. the scope gets close to not triggering anymore), the jitter gets lower, albeit at much reduced waveform display frequency. This may actually be related to only the same few first (or last) comparators of the "bin of eight" causing the trigger, hence narrowing down the possible times from trigger event to the generation of the trigger out pulse.

I didn't find similar effects with the other trigger modes (but I might not have tested long enough). Runt trigger resulted in higher jitter (about twice the others) but I guess this was related to amplitude noise in the relative small runt window that I used to trigger on one of the small peaks of a cardiac pulse (and the comparably soft slopes).

Cheers,
Thomas
 

Online Fungus

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3171 on: November 12, 2016, 12:16:54 pm »
I'll have to watch that later, but there has to be a clock that multiplexes them at the sampling rate (1GHz). It seemed from the description that the trigger circuit does not run that fast.

That would be impossible. The ADC places data into a buffer for processing. The trigger logic has to process that buffer mathematically, looking for rising edges (or whatever the trigger condition is). The exact amount of latency/jitter will depend on the hardware but some latency/jitter is inevitable.

nb. The on-screen display is completely different than the trigger output. The screen display doesn't work in real time, it can easily display the sampled data at the exact point computed by the trigger logic. A screen latency measured in milliseconds doesn't matter.

I will that add that without additional hardware like a variable delay line, it does not matter if the FPGA knows the exact trigger position or not because it can only create a trigger output signal aligned with its own internal clock signal.  So it does not matter if sin(x)/x reconstruction happens before the trigger qualifier or not; a more accurate determination of the real trigger point will not make the trigger output more precise.

This too.

In theory it can be fixed, sure, but in the real world there will be hardware limitations holding back the firmware developers (especially on budget hardware like this).

You want better results? Spend more money...



« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 12:30:19 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline MrWolf

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3172 on: November 15, 2016, 09:03:03 am »
Oh well, I hope I didn't confuse the newbies too much with my testing of the trigger output characteristics of the Rigol scopes...

Don't worry. Newbies are already confused.  I went to anaphylactic shock because I already had discovered that it pulls channels phase diff data out of its well ventilated rear. Waveform averaging was on (1024 wfms). Wave was steady. But phase diff number jumped around by about 5 degrees much faster than averaging settle time. So currently my only option is get a magnifying glass and phase diff data from waveform by cursors.
 

Offline Karel

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3173 on: November 15, 2016, 03:08:13 pm »
Oh well, I hope I didn't confuse the newbies too much with my testing of the trigger output characteristics of the Rigol scopes...

Don't worry. Newbies are already confused.  I went to anaphylactic shock because I already had discovered that it pulls channels phase diff data out of its well ventilated rear. Waveform averaging was on (1024 wfms). Wave was steady. But phase diff number jumped around by about 5 degrees much faster than averaging settle time. So currently my only option is get a magnifying glass and phase diff data from waveform by cursors.

I guess you hit this bug: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/msg862373/#msg862373

 

Offline Mitsch

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3174 on: November 21, 2016, 08:47:06 pm »
Could somebody please give me feedback about the firmware? My Rigol will arrive tomorrow... On the first page there is firmware 04.04 mentioned (Sept/2016) on the Rigol Page I only see 04.02 from 2015? Does this already fix the Jitter-Bug?

Where do I get the latest firmware? And why is it not longer on the Rigol Homepage? I think it was there, because the QnA Post said so...

Thank you very much in advance!

With kind regards,
Mitsch
 


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