New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope

[Guni]

http://www.batronix.com/pdf/Rigol/ProgrammingGuide/MSO1000Z_DS1000Z_ProgrammingGuide_EN.pdf

Check "Chapter 1 - To Build Remote Communication"

[ebastler]

Now I noticed some noise on the track. It's still there also with the inputs set to GND... Sometimes I can see little rectangular waves, other times sawtooth, sometimes I see 3mm of noise also in 1V/div. If I do something, then I come back, sometimes track become thin, with only a little, acceptable noise.

Do anyone have a similar problem on his DSO?

Could you post a screenshot or two of the noise that worries you?
That might make it easier for other DS1054Z owners to compare and comment.

Cheers,
Jürgen

[miguelvp]

Is that math function included in the basic package of the DS1054Z?

-Didix

As far as i know it's included, press the math button and check.

[Lightages]

I remember, all math functions are included, but I can't check for you because mine is "upgraded"

[Datman]

Here are some pictures.

In the evening I was thinking that near home (300~500m) there is a FM transmitting antenna on 105MHz and 93.3MHz. It's very powerful: with some FM radios I can't receive some other stations, because signals take input stages into saturation.

However, the track is noisy also with the input coupling selector set to GND: if the problem is due to RF interference, it is a shielding problem near the AD converter, because RF can't enter from the BNC.

As I said, the problem is not stable: sometimes it is there also at 1V/div, then I modify sensitivity, position, timing, I come back to 1V/div and the track now is clean...

Mechanical shocks seem to have no effects (better or worse)

[MAS3]

What firmware is in there ?
It's a new device, does it have the latest firmware ?

[nanofrog]

However, the track is noisy also with the input coupling selector set to GND: if the problem is due to RF interference, it is a shielding problem near the AD converter, because RF can't enter from the BNC.

Does this happen on any other oscilloscope you have?
And/or do you have any metal screen to fully cover the DS1054Z (thinking DIY Faraday screen)?

[Didix]

Is that math function included in the basic package of the DS1054Z?

-Didix

As far as i know it's included, press the math button and check.

I sure would do so if I had one 
I am thinking about buying one - that would be an addtl feature that my 40 yrs old Siemens is not supporting.

-Didix

[miguelvp]

Is that math function included in the basic package of the DS1054Z?

-Didix

As far as i know it's included, press the math button and check.

I sure would do so if I had one 
I am thinking about buying one - that would be an addtl feature that my 40 yrs old Siemens is not supporting.

-Didix

Even old scopes have an add with inverted signal on the 2nd channel, and old analog scopes are actually faster to do this than modern ones because they do it real time in the analog space.

So if you have an A+B and you can set B to be the inverse its the same thing as A-B

[Datman]

Now

However, the track is noisy also with the input coupling selector set to GND: if the problem is due to RF interference, it is a shielding problem near the AD converter, because RF can't enter from the BNC.

Does this happen on any other oscilloscope you have?
And/or do you have any metal screen to fully cover the DS1054Z (thinking DIY Faraday screen)?

No, I haven't any other oscilloscope. I was thinking to buy one in 1986, but my uncle gave me an oscilloscope for some time, then I bought a portable DAT recorder

Now I am 300km from home. If I thought to RF interference before leaving home, I could have taken the scope with me to test it here...
In the evening I could make a test in the cellar or with an aluminum foil. Also another room should be better, because my laboratory room is the more directly exposed to Vatican radio FM antennas.
 You can also see that track is not perfectly aligned with the arrow on the side. I have to say I done first the auto calibration trying solving the noise problem (it could have been a balance problem in the circuits): RF interference could have given problems also during calibration, giving offset errors!

[Datman]

About firmware: I thought also to a firmware bug, but it seems an interference, internal or external.
I waited 50 days to have the scope, because the Italian seller was waiting from Rigol. After received the scopes, they sent me it in 24 hours, then it should have the latest firmware. It also seemed to me the last.

[ebastler]

Here are some pictures.

In the evening I was thinking that near home (300~500m) there is a FM transmitting antenna on 105MHz and 93.3MHz. It's very powerful: with some FM radios I can't receive some other stations, because signals take input stages into saturation.

However, the track is noisy also with the input coupling selector set to GND: if the problem is due to RF interference, it is a shielding problem near the AD converter, because RF can't enter from the BNC.

I would agree that most likely something gets into the signal path well behind the inputs, near the A/D converter. The fact that you can get the same amplitude of the noise/interference signal at either 5mV/div or 1V/div is consistent with that assumption. It probably also makes no difference at all whether you switch the 20 MHz bandwidth limit on or off? The 125 MHz frequency you see seems not directly related to the FM frequency. It might be a subharmonic of the 1 GHz or 500 MHz sampling frequency?

My own DS1054Z certainly does not show this kind of behaviour. Testing yours in a location away from the FM transmitter sound worthwhile -- you probably don't have to travel 300 km, but a few km might already make a difference? If that reduces or removes the noise, I would agree with your conclusion that proper shielding of a scope should take care of such interference. But will another DS1054Z fare better in that respect? Having Radio Vatican in your backyard is an untypical challenge, which Rigol may not have considered when designing the scope ;-)

I think it is worthwhile to check the firmware version. My scope did not come with the latest firmware when I received it a month ago. When you go to Utility - System - System Info, it should display the software version 00.04.02.SP4. Rigol did fix a jitter issue in that latest firmware, by changing the PLL operating parameters. While I don't have a theory how that would impact your noise issue, it is certainly an improvement worth trying. The firmware is officially available here: http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0, so installing it should not affect your warranty.

By the way -- the built-in screenshot function of the DS1000Z series is really nice and simple. Just plug a FAT32-formatted USB stick into the front USB connector, and each time you press the green "print screen" button, the scope will store a screenshot on the stick.

[Datman]

I remember firmware is sp4. I'll check this evening.

[Didix]

Is that math function included in the basic package of the DS1054Z?

-Didix

As far as i know it's included, press the math button and check.

I sure would do so if I had one 
I am thinking about buying one - that would be an addtl feature that my 40 yrs old Siemens is not supporting.

-Didix

Even old scopes have an add with inverted signal on the 2nd channel, and old analog scopes are actually faster to do this than modern ones because they do it real time in the analog space.

So if you have an A+B and you can set B to be the inverse its the same thing as A-B

Correct, my old scope has an ADD.
But what I finally need is to measure two signals at different positions in my circuit, where (at least) one of the signals needs to be measured floating.
As much as I understand I cannot do this with my only two channels that are referenced to common ground.
So I guess the best would be to have an 4 channel scope and measuring differential A-B and C-D.
Well, so the question is still open:
Is that math function where I can do (differential A-B and C-D) included in the basic package of the DS1054Z?

-Didix

[nanofrog]

In the evening I could make a test in the cellar or with an aluminum foil.

Metal window screen would be better, as you'd be able to see through it while the scope is on (quick & easy way to determine if it's RF).  No leakage issues at any rate this way vs. aluminum foil (due to access for viewing & operation during test).

[electr_peter]

But what I finally need is to measure two signals at different positions in my circuit, where (at least) one of the signals needs to be measured floating.
As much as I understand I cannot do this with my only two channels that are referenced to common ground.
So I guess the best would be to have an 4 channel scope and measuring differential A-B and C-D.
Well, so the question is still open:
Is that math function where I can do (differential A-B and C-D) included in the basic package of the DS1054Z?

From using the scope and reading manual I would say you can do only one pair (A-B or C-D), but not both because only one math channel is available. Maybe you can capture signals on 4 channels, stop scope, calculate math, add reference traces for both combinations and go from there.

Anyway, depending on what you do with differential measurements, real differential probes (either high V or high BW) are the way to go.

[Didix]

But what I finally need is to measure two signals at different positions in my circuit, where (at least) one of the signals needs to be measured floating.
As much as I understand I cannot do this with my only two channels that are referenced to common ground.
So I guess the best would be to have an 4 channel scope and measuring differential A-B and C-D.
Well, so the question is still open:
Is that math function where I can do (differential A-B and C-D) included in the basic package of the DS1054Z?

From using the scope and reading manual I would say you can do only one pair (A-B or C-D), but not both because only one math channel is available. Maybe you can capture signals on 4 channels, stop scope, calculate math, add reference traces for both combinations and go from there.

Anyway, depending on what you do with differential measurements, real differential probes (either high V or high BW) are the way to go.

For my current application it would be ok to measure one signal differential (A-B) and the second signal referenced to ground (C only).
As I understand you have done differential measurements?

To get back to my original but yet unanswered question  : 
Is that math function included in the basic package of the DS1054Z?

-Didix

[electr_peter]

For my current application it would be ok to measure one signal differential (A-B) and the second signal referenced to ground (C only).
As I understand you have done differential measurements?

Yes, I have measured differential signals. Add math channel of 2 signals and see combined result. Scope runs slower with math on though.

To get back to my original but yet unanswered question  :
Is that math function included in the basic package of the DS1054Z?

Yes, basic scope has a math features. Only advanced triggering and decoding are an option.

[Didix]

For my current application it would be ok to measure one signal differential (A-B) and the second signal referenced to ground (C only).
As I understand you have done differential measurements?

Yes, I have measured differential signals. Add math channel of 2 signals and see combined result. Scope runs slower with math on though.

To get back to my original but yet unanswered question  :
Is that math function included in the basic package of the DS1054Z?

Yes, basic scope has a math features. Only advanced triggering and decoding are an option.

Thanx a lot, Peter! I really appreciate such constructive contributions 

-Didix

[miguelvp]

I would suggest you get the manual for the DS1054Z to see how many channels you can mix in the math functions.
That said, for what you want to do, your current scope should work as well without the math overhead because it's all done in the analog domain.

So if the device under test has a common ground with the scope via the home mains then you can setup channel 2 as inverted polarity and add ch1 + (inverted ch2) which will give you A-B in the screen.

If the DUT is floating and has no common ground (you can measure voltage between the scope ground and the device ground to make sure there is no voltage at all) you can use one of the probe's ground clips to ground your DUT in reference to the scope.

But make sure there is no voltage across the ground of the device and the ground of the scope or you'll let the magic smoke out from the device or from the scope.

The 2nd probe (inverted ch2) added to the grounded ch1 will give you A-B.

So you can use your current 2 channel scope if you know what you are doing. Having more channels you still have to know how you are hooking things up.

[Datman]

Hw is 0.1.1; sw is rev.4. What is your Hw version?
Ch1 is very clean; at 10mV (but set to gnd) I begin to see various sinusoidal and other noises.
Ch2,3,4 have some digital noise still at 10V/div

P.s.: not all the forums are the same: here are you used to have a discussion for each topic, or a long discussion for all topics about a device? It seems the second... Is it so?

[KNA]

Those who got a new DS1054Z in the last couple of weeks, what firmware and hardware versions did you receive?

Were you still able to "upgrade" to all options? I read that 00.04.02.04.07 the "upgrade doesn't work https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/is-ds1054z-with-firmware-00-04-02-04-07-hackable/

Cheers!

[justinDavidow]

Those who got a new DS1054Z in the last couple of weeks, what firmware and hardware versions did you receive?

Were you still able to "upgrade" to all options? I read that 00.04.02.04.07 the "upgrade doesn't work https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/is-ds1054z-with-firmware-00-04-02-04-07-hackable/

Cheers!

I'm presently on 00.04.02.SP3 with board version 0.1.1 after purchasing in Canada in early-mid Jan 2015, and all options upgrade without a problem.

[ebastler]

Were you still able to "upgrade" to all options? I read that 00.04.02.04.07 the "upgrade doesn't work https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/is-ds1054z-with-firmware-00-04-02-04-07-hackable/

Not sure why there is so much confusion around this. The firmware version you mentioned is the latest one (which the scope indicates as "00.04.02 SP4" in the system information). The key generator for upgrades still works fine with that version.

Some "failed" upgrade attempts have been reported which were traceable to mis-typed serial numbers, or to the online keygen not always refreshing properly. It seems advisable to poll the keygen a couple of times and check whether you get consistent output.

Cheers,
Jürgen

[Howardlong]

Were you still able to "upgrade" to all options? I read that 00.04.02.04.07 the "upgrade doesn't work https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/is-ds1054z-with-firmware-00-04-02-04-07-hackable/

Some "failed" upgrade attempts have been reported which were traceable to mis-typed serial numbers, or to the online keygen not always refreshing properly. It seems advisable to poll the keygen a couple of times and check whether you get consistent output.

Cheers,
Jürgen

The DS1074Z-S I purchased for my nephew last week was shipped with firmware 4.00, and I noticed that applying an upgrade key via SCPI via either the LAN or USB resulted in an error on the screen, although I discovered later that the upgrade did actually work if I looked on the option screen.

Once the firmware had been updated to 4.02 SP4, the error no longer appeared.