Handheld meter robustness testing

[P90]

ignore the troll with the "pee-zee-o"... that's what Gossen support said in regard to your emails to them...       

[Wytnucls]

These are high count very specialized CAT III 600V only meters, with detailed calibration certificates.
Can they be made safer? Possibly, like most other meters. They do come though, with independent testing and meet current regulations.
There is always a premium on price when products are made in Europe and this one also comes with a meaningful 3-year warranty.
As for neodymium susceptibility, it is not very difficult to keep magnets at a safe distance and forego the use of magnetic holders.
It is a small price to pay, as nobody else yet makes a true 300,000 or 1,200,000 count portable meter and may never do.
So, enjoy them while you can, before they disappear completely, under pressure from Asian products.

I'm enjoying it all right.  Next part, we will see just how robust that front end is.   

I doubt the average person would take the time to see if a magnetic strap would effect their new high count, very specialized CAT III 600V only meters, with detailed calibration certificates.   I personally would have never thought they would release such a product.

You're such a drama queen. So concerned with minute safety aspects. This from someone who rides motorcycles, probably without a helmet too. These meters have been around for at least 20 years, how many people were actually hurt by their Gossen magnetic hanger?
if you're so concerned with magnet safety, there is nothing preventing you from contacting the IEC to ask them to change their recommendations.
I guess that you have to find anything contentious with the expensive meters on test, to keep your audience amused, even at times openly disparaging a review made by the owner of this site. By the way, why is his face on the first frame of one of your videos? Riding coattails?
Any electrician worth his salt would know that relays can be affected by strong magnets and Gossen warns about such eventuality.
All I know is that I'm not about to throw my 30M in the garbage on the strength of your 'review'. 
Have fun with the Ultra, but like the Energy, who doesn't know what the conclusion will be already?
As for the price, the Chauvin Arnoux MTX3293, also made in Europe, costs the same as the Gossen and you only get 100,000 count.

http://www.iec.ch/about/contactus/

[3db]

ignore the troll with the "pee-zee-o"... that's what Gossen support said in regard to your emails to them...       

That's not what they publish on their website.
https://www.gossenmetrawatt.com/english/seiten/aboutus.htm

Our Most Important Corporate Goals

Economic success
Long-term assurance of the marketability of our products
Satisfied customers
An intact environment

Our Quality Policy

Fulfilling our customers’ requirements is a duty for us.
We design our products and processes in an environmentaly sound fashion.
Legal and official requirements are complied with and checked on a regular basis.
We demand quality and environmental awareness, as well as reliability, from our suppliers too.

Through conscientious performance of his or her job,
each employee fulfils the goal of satisfying his or her customers.

By continuously improving our processes, we intend to constantly enhance the effectiveness of our IM system.
Error prevention comes before error correction.

So in order to implement company policy lets block email from a customer and not respond to questions. 

3DB

[xrunner]

Yea ... typical corporate mission statement(s). Anyone can make 'em -

http://www.jonhaworth.com/toys/mission-statement-generator

http://cmorse.org/missiongen/

[Fungus]

That's not what they publish on their website.

That's what *everybody* says on their web site, even Batteroo.

[joeqsmith]

These are high count very specialized CAT III 600V only meters, with detailed calibration certificates.
Can they be made safer? Possibly, like most other meters. They do come though, with independent testing and meet current regulations.
There is always a premium on price when products are made in Europe and this one also comes with a meaningful 3-year warranty.
As for neodymium susceptibility, it is not very difficult to keep magnets at a safe distance and forego the use of magnetic holders.
It is a small price to pay, as nobody else yet makes a true 300,000 or 1,200,000 count portable meter and may never do.
So, enjoy them while you can, before they disappear completely, under pressure from Asian products.

I'm enjoying it all right.  Next part, we will see just how robust that front end is.   

I doubt the average person would take the time to see if a magnetic strap would effect their new high count, very specialized CAT III 600V only meters, with detailed calibration certificates.   I personally would have never thought they would release such a product.

You're such a drama queen. So concerned with minute safety aspects. This from someone who rides motorcycles, probably without a helmet too. These meters have been around for at least 20 years, how many people were actually hurt by their Gossen magnetic hanger?
if you're so concerned with magnet safety, there is nothing preventing you from contacting the IEC to ask them to change their recommendations.
I guess that you have to find anything contentious with the expensive meters on test, to keep your audience amused, even at times openly disparaging a review made by the owner of this site. By the way, why is his face on the first frame of one of your videos? Riding coattails?
Any electrician worth his salt would know that relays can be affected by strong magnets and Gossen warns about such eventuality.
All I know is that I'm not about to throw my 30M in the garbage on the strength of your 'review'. 
Have fun with the Ultra, but like the Energy, who doesn't know what the conclusion will be already?
As for the price, the Chauvin Arnoux MTX3293, also made in Europe, costs the same as the Gossen and you only get 100,000 count.

http://www.iec.ch/about/contactus/

Strange you would bring up helmets and assume I would not use one.  But because you brought it up, we are required to wear a helmet that is in current cert and a shield along with other requirements.

I doubt the Metrahit Ultra M248B has been in production 20 years. 

You know, I don't know why YT picked Dave's face for the icon.  I normally leave these at what ever defaults they come up with.  I assume they have some algorithms that make the selection.

In a way, I would say I am riding Dave's coattail. Had he not reviewed the couple of Gossens I doubt I would be looking at one now.   But my reviews are always going to dig into more details and I am always going to be checking for their failure point.  It's been like that for some time and not something new to this Gossen.  I find it interesting how my views of this particular meter are in such a contrast with Dave's, which is why I added  some snips.  I will say that it has taken me longer to review it because it has had so many problems that I normally don't see.   Certainly not something I would have anticipated with the price of the meter. 

I have not ran the Gossen yet and can't predict the results.  I've seen meters I thought would fail really low do very good.  Other I would think would survive well have done poorly. 

[OldNeurons]

For your information, here is an e-mail that I sent to GMC some days ago, and the reply, from GMC Germany I assume, and  forwarded by GMC France.

My E-mail:

=========================================================================
De : ..................................................
Envoyé : mercredi 24 mai 2017 22:33
À : GMC-I Service GmbH; FR, Info
Objet : Metrahit Ultra M248B issue

Dear Madam, dear Sir,

I was close to buy one of the model mentioned in the subject, and, when looking at some reviews on the web, I found this:








...

No need to say that I have postponed my purchase.

According the author of these videos, he wrote a letter to your company, but did not receive yet any reply.

I doubt that this is an isolated issue affecting only that unit.

Before I take any decision, I would like to know:

1) If this is an isolated problem.
2) What are the models in your products list which are affected by these issues.
3) Do you intend to solve these issues ?

Regards.
=========================================================================




GMC Germany reply, forwarded by GMC France:

=========================================================================
Bonjour monsieur ..........,

Au nom de l’équipe GMC Instruments, je vous remercie pour l’attention que vous portez à nos produits.

Vous trouverez ci-dessous la réponse que le responsable de l’activité multimètres a donné à vos questions. J’espère qu’elles répondront à vos attentes. Si tel n’est pas le cas, n’hésitez pas à nous demander toute précision que vous jugerez nécessaires.

Bien cordialement,

Bruno COMBY
Managing Director

GMC Instruments France SAS

 

No need to say that I have postponed my purchase.

We regret that you postpone your purchase, because METRAHIT ULTRA is a robust precision multimeter despite the behavior reported by Smith in the EEVBLOG. 

 

According the author of these videos, he wrote a letter to your company, but did not receive yet any reply.

Yes, Joe Smith wrote a letter to the subsidiary in the USA. He targeted to receive a description of the interface protocol in order to calibrate the device by himself, which the subsidiary refused to release. This leaded to contrary positions and a not answering to his letter. 

I doubt that this is an isolated issue affecting only that unit.

Before I take any decision, I would like to know:

1)      If this is an isolated problem.

It is true, we recognized a sensitivity of the METRAHIT ULTRA to electromagnetic interferences (susceptibility) too. This can be recognized for strong electric fields. Joe Smith tested with 10V/m, a relatively high field strength leading to the observations he made. We usually test with 3V/m which does not affect the METRAHIT ULTRA. Please observe that the device is nevertheless compliant to all relevant ISO standards. Furthermore this can be observed only in the lowest DC measuring range, the 300 mV range we has to be selected manually, i.e. not in AUTO range mode. 

Nevertheless we started in our R&D a process to improve the immunity of the METRAHIT ULTRA against electrical fields.

We cannot reproduce the observed emission problem at 1.2 GHz. The peak reported in the video is approx.. -90dBm equal to 1pW. We could not find this peak. I might be a resonance problem due to the size of Joe’s cake box. A low level emission below the sensitivity of our test instruments could become larger because of resonance effects in the cake box.      

2)      What are the models in your products list which are affected by these issues.

The other multimeters in our portfolio do not show the same sensitivity as the METRAHIT ULTRA. The problem is solely a subject of METRAHIT ULTRA.

3) Do you intend to solve these issues ?

Yes, we already started activities to improve the EMC of the METRAHIT ULTRA.

[tautech]

WOW. 
Gossen are watching closely and won't/can't trouble themselves to offer Joe a reply. 

Time to pull the pulser out and see really what this meter can handle. 

[2N3055]

So basically, while Joe is right, meter is EMC sensitive more than we would like to admit (so we started process to improve it) we are royally pissed at Joe that he published this information to the public... And we don't speak to anybody that we don't like , even if the bought a 850 USD meter from us..... How dare he...

LOL

[jordanp123]

If I'm reading this correctly, they didn't like the fact that he simply asked for calibration information and then blacklisted him after that ?

[tautech]

So basically, while Joe is right, meter is EMC sensitive more than we would like to admit (so we started process to improve it) we are royally pissed at Joe that he published this information to the public... And we don't speak to anybody that we don't like , even if the bought a 850 USD meter form us..... How dare he...

LOL

They clearly identified Joe as some motorcycle racing upstart , probably with zero letters behind his name  and not worthy of wasting ink on. 
One can only hope they see the error of their ways and join up and jump in soon with something concrete about improving their Ultra...........free shields maybe ?

Joe, which other manufacturers have never bothered to offer a reply to your comms ?

[MacMeter]

Thanks "OldNeurons", for saving me the time, that was a good message you sent. Corporations these days are usually a lot more aware of their online presence, and how important customer feedback and reviews can effect their bottom line. Funny their stating disappointment with you "delaying" your purchase, then at the end admitting there will be a V2.

Be nice if they offered an update for all those with a V1. If it's not a safety issue, then I assume not, but the issue of safety has been brought up, in regards to what mode the meter may or may not be in depending on the state it was last in, set by the relay. Unless that condition just means an inaccurate reading, in which safety could be argued, perhaps?

[Fungus]

Yes, Joe Smith wrote a letter to the subsidiary in the USA. He targeted to receive a description of the interface protocol in order to calibrate the device by himself, which the subsidiary refused to release. This leaded to contrary positions and a not answering to his letter.

Ouch! Whoever wrote that is going to get a roasting when the boss finds out. 

[MacMeter]

Yes, Joe Smith wrote a letter to the subsidiary in the USA. He targeted to receive a description of the interface protocol in order to calibrate the device by himself, which the subsidiary refused to release. This leaded to contrary positions and a not answering to his letter.

Ouch! Whoever wrote that is going to get a roasting when the boss finds out. 

"Roasting", they are probably tied up right now, getting the GRILL starter treatment! 

[3db]

That's not what they publish on their website.

That's what *everybody* says on their web site, even Batteroo.

Actually it's not.
I didn't see it on the Fluke corporate site.
There again I've noticed that you don't really read posts fully.

3DB
P.S.  Loved your meter review   

[OldNeurons]

Yes, Joe Smith wrote a letter to the subsidiary in the USA. He targeted to receive a description of the interface protocol in order to calibrate the device by himself, which the subsidiary refused to release. This leaded to contrary positions and a not answering to his letter.

Ouch! Whoever wrote that is going to get a roasting when the boss finds out. 

If you red the reply carefully, you observed that the reply of GMC Germany was forwarded to me by the Managing Director of GMC France.
Personnaly, I was surprised to receive a so quick and frank reply, and would like to thanks GMC for that. It's not common these days ...

I also appreciate Joe's work, and I will let him to give us more details about his discussions with GMC USA.

[bitseeker]

It'll be interesting to see how this plays out with GMC. By point of comparison, when the Keysight U1270 series was demonstrated to have an EMI issue that affected displayed measurements, they offered to replace the problem DMM with either a corrected version of the same model or the next higher model (U1280 series), even if the affected meter was out of warranty.

[Muttley Snickers]

Likewise, I almost purchased one of their 30M meters recently which was discussed elsewhere on the forum, I was familiar with the product but not comfortable with the pricing of the additional accessories such as the communications interface, in the end I passed on it, no big deal.

A different enigma altogether, I'm also keen to find out what happened to that Testo video which showed where their multimeters were prone to magnetic fields and in particular the supplied hanging strap, the video has been removed along with the comments, sorry I can't link from this device but it was discussed in mailbag #986 from memory.

[Fungus]

Whoever wrote that is going to get a roasting when the boss finds out.

If you red the reply carefully, you observed that the reply of GMC Germany was forwarded to me by the Managing Director of GMC France.

Internal power struggle at GMC? 

[The Soulman]

I'm curious now if there is a shield under that plastic cover in the first picture. 

The second picture looks like the shields shown on Dave's Xtra.  Makes sense they would keep them all the same.  Maybe they felt it was not worth the cost to tool one for the BT model.   

My metrahit 2+ appears to have the exact same shield as in the first photo and it hasn't a second shield underneath it, it must be some special plastics.

Always wondered what those randomly placed holes where for, now I know. 

Edit: after 1 minute of google I've found this material:
https://www.rtpcompany.com/products/emi-shielding/
The shield/cover is probably made out of something like that.

Attached are Photo's of the cover/shield from my metrahit 2+

[joeqsmith]

Yes, Joe Smith wrote a letter to the subsidiary in the USA. He targeted to receive a description of the interface protocol in order to calibrate the device by himself, which the subsidiary refused to release. This leaded to contrary positions and a not answering to his letter.

Ouch! Whoever wrote that is going to get a roasting when the boss finds out. 

If you red the reply carefully, you observed that the reply of GMC Germany was forwarded to me by the Managing Director of GMC France.
Personnaly, I was surprised to receive a so quick and frank reply, and would like to thanks GMC for that. It's not common these days ...

I also appreciate Joe's work, and I will let him to give us more details about his discussions with GMC USA.

I am not sure what details you are looking for.  I basically read the email chain out loud.   

Gossen did write.  They basically sent the same letter you posted minus this:

Yes, Joe Smith wrote a letter to the subsidiary in the USA. He targeted to receive a description of the interface protocol in order to calibrate the device by himself, which the subsidiary refused to release. This leaded to contrary positions and a not answering to his letter. 

I have no idea if anyone at Gossen was provided with the original email chain or if they came to this conclusion on their own or were told this by the rep.  To me, that's not as important as they actually propagated this story to another potential customer without verifying their information. 

Thanks for the fast response.  I don't think calibration would be a problem.  To be clear I am looking for companies that have the tools required to align the products without the need to ship it back to the factory.  As I understand it, Gossen will sell these tools and I assume there are labs in the US that have invested in them. 

The last one I sent before they blocked:

I am not asking anyone to share tools, I am asking for a company in the US that can perform an alignment. 

 

My next attempt to go through another source that was bounced back to the original person who blocked:

I am trying to determine if Gossen has anyone in the US that can perform an alignment of their handheld meters if they no longer pass calibration or do they need to be returned to Germany for alignment?

Their email responses were cherry picked from the information that had been provided.  They make sure to talk about 10V/m and cookie cans but completely ignore the fact that you can't put your hand next to the meter or that something as simple as a magnetic strap can cause the relay to change states and they don't detect it, resulting in the meter displaying very low voltage levels in the AC mode.   

I received a second email from their service department.  This was actually very helpful and included detailed information regarding the commands used to communicate with the meter.  There was nothing proprietary that I could see in the document and I'm not sure why they just don't make it public.  They asked that I contact the US rep if I had further questions.   You can be certain that will not happen any time soon. 

I responded to the original email asking how they concluded I was trying to calibrate the meter myself.  I also asked technical questions concerning how the meter behaves (mentioned earlier).  I provided them with the link to the YT Playlist I created for this meter and offered to provide them with the original email chain if they had not actually received it.   

As of yet I have not heard back from them. 

My plan is to start running the transient tests in the next few days.  Again, this may permanently damage the meter beyond hope of repair.  So if there is anything people want to know feel free to ask now.   

[joeqsmith]

So basically, while Joe is right, meter is EMC sensitive more than we would like to admit (so we started process to improve it) we are royally pissed at Joe that he published this information to the public... And we don't speak to anybody that we don't like , even if the bought a 850 USD meter form us..... How dare he...

LOL

They clearly identified Joe as some motorcycle racing upstart , probably with zero letters behind his name  and not worthy of wasting ink on. 
One can only hope they see the error of their ways and join up and jump in soon with something concrete about improving their Ultra...........free shields maybe ?

Joe, which other manufacturers have never bothered to offer a reply to your comms ?

To be honest, I really have only written the companies that I perceived as offering higher quality products.  I have written BK, Fluke, Klein Tools, HIOKI, Extech (as well as Ruby),  TPI, Brymen and of course GMC.   Of these only HIOKI never responded.  Too bad really as I have used their products and they really off some great products.  Expensive, but great!  Worth the price!

Brymen has had the most open communications of all the companies.  Actually, Extech and BK have also been very helpful in answering technical questions.     

[joeqsmith]

Yes, Joe Smith wrote a letter to the subsidiary in the USA. He targeted to receive a description of the interface protocol in order to calibrate the device by himself, which the subsidiary refused to release. This leaded to contrary positions and a not answering to his letter.

Ouch! Whoever wrote that is going to get a roasting when the boss finds out. 

"Roasting", they are probably tied up right now, getting the GRILL starter treatment! 

Again, I am not sure how they came up with that little story.  Maybe the rep was asked and this was what was told.   Don't know, don't care.  It's an internal problem with the company and I am very surprised they would make a statement like this to another customer. 

[joeqsmith]

I'm also keen to find out what happened to that Testo video which showed where their multimeters were prone to magnetic fields and in particular the supplied hanging strap, the video has been removed along with the comments, sorry I can't link from this device but it was discussed in mailbag #986 from memory.

Wonder if they latched like the Ultra.   I'm interested if you ever find the video that shows the problem.

[xrunner]

It's almost a wonder that these test equipment manufacturers don't make special tamper proof screws for their equipment like Apple does (except for the battery and fuse compartments of course). You know if you've ever fixed one like I have they have those teensie pentalobe screws. Of course it all gets defeated, but still it's amazing they don't try to block the "normal" users from getting inside, and only give the entry tools to certified repair or cal centers.

But, I'm glad they don't do it.