EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[Galenbo]

Depends, in many countries the use of the title engineer is protected

Not in our country, and around.
Only the personal abbreviations like ir. ing. dr. Msc. Meng. etc are protected.

Ont he other side, the word Architect is protected, even in a combination expression like interior architect.
But everybody uses it. Software architect, career architect, interior architect, garden architect.
Nobody cares.

[Fungus]

Hey. As this Batterizer unfolds more and more and more as a scam, I saw one claim which was still not debunked :

Frankie RoohparvarChairman & Inventor, Holds over 500 US patents

That does not sound very plausible to me. It means you write one patent each and every week for 10 years.
Yeah. Let's google that :

Nah, it's true, we looked them up earlier in the thread. He used to work at Micron in a team and every random thought the team had was patented.

They're mostly junk though. Really obvious, basic stuff. Most people around here will have 20 thoughts like those every single day, we just don't have a patenting department following us around to record them and try to get them past patent examiners.

[Galenbo]

... He used to work at Micron in a team and every random thought the team had was patented.
They're mostly junk though. ...

Looks like they did a DoS attack on the Patent services :-)

[Fungus]

As if a bunch of startup guys can outdo the big hitters who've been perfecting boost converters for 50+ years? 

Hmm.. This is actually plausible. Startup guys can outdo the big hitters sometimes provided they do things right.

Sure, in fields where a new technology appears and the big hitters didn't respond yet.

Designing DC boost converters in a field where the big hitters have been hitting each other for 20 years? Not so much.

(eg. Linear Tech., Analog Devices, TI, etc.)

[lpickup]

I think Bob underestimated the pluckiness of journalist Hannah Francis actually going to to the trouble to find and talk to several university experts...

I think 95% of this forum underestimated Hannah.

[neotesla]

I think 95% of this forum underestimated Hannah.

Guilty as charged.
Good article (apart from a blooper about DJ not being an engineer)

[SL4P]

I'm still laughing at the comparisons of the Batteriser to the marketing of fake boner pills. Well done, Hannah.

That was pretty funny! 

Haang on... Does that mean my vibrating massager will run EIGHT times as long?
Maybe we should ask Boob Ropahrvar?

[FrankBuss]

I didn't read the FCC report, I really just looked at the pictures, but the frequency emissions appear to have been taken at a distance of 3 metres?

So what happens when its a matter of centimetres from the device its installed in?

FCC requires only 3 m for the tested class: http://www.interferencetechnology.com/radiated-emission-measurements-at-1351030-meters/
But I guess it wouldn't be much different in the centimeters range, because the Batterise is so small, but might depend on wires in the device etc., too. Of course, no problem for a 1k resistor

[samgab]

Addressing Battered-Kanga-roo's claims that devices use 20% or less of a cell's capacity. They featured an Apple wireless keyboard as an example device in their slick marketing videos.
At my work they have some Macs, and they use Energizer Industrial Alkaline AA cells in the wireless keyboards and mice.
So when I noticed one pop up with a message saying "only 6% battery capacity remaining" in the Magic Mouse, I took the cells home and ran discharge tests on both cells at a very low discharge rate (0.05A) down to 0.5V to see how much capacity was really remaining in the cells when they came up with that message. Was there really 80% of their total capacity still remaining? I also discharged a brand new cell of the same make and model to compare the capacity of a new cell discharged at the same constant current rate to 0.5V.
This is an example of the cells:


Here is the discharge curve of a new cell (2477mAh):


And here is the discharge curve of the two cells I took out of the Magic Mouse which showed 6% capacity remaining (393 and 325mAh):


So here is the relative capacity remaining in the cells vs new:


so about 13-15% remaining capacity in the used cells when the mouse still registers as having 6% left usable capacity.
I'd've liked to have used all the usable capacity in the mouse until it turned off and then tested remaining capacity, but someone at work would have thrown the cells away before it got to that point. So I'm breaking with my normal pattern of only using LSD NiMH cells, and I've put some of the same Energizer Industrial Alkaline AA cells in a Magic Mouse at home which I'll use until it turns itself off, then I redo the discharge test on this pair to see how much capacity is really remaining in the cells.

You DON'T need a Batteriser to do this test, and to disprove their claims, because their claims are dependant on how much of a cell's usable capacity is utilized by a device. They claimed initially that "every battery you ever threw away had as much as 80% of the capacity still remaining". This is clearly not the case, as we all knew of course. But the Roopedoopedoovarhar brothers and Co. keep saying that you can't refute their claims without actually having a Battery-iser to test, when that obviously isn't the case.

[joseph.anand]

I think Bob underestimated the pluckiness of journalist Hannah Francis actually going to to the trouble to find and talk to several university experts...

I think 95% of this forum underestimated Hannah.

Yes one of the most neutral and factual technology related article I have read in a newspaper. I'm having a feeling she actually checked with real EE Professors before getting in touch with Dave.

[ez24]

I also downloaded a brand new cell of the same make and model

I think we all would be more interested in your tele-transporter than a battery.

[drussell]

They claimed initially that "every battery you ever threw away had as much as 80% of the capacity still remaining". This is clearly not the case, as we all knew of course. But the Roopedoopedoovarhar brothers and Co. keep saying that you can't refute their claims without actually having a Battery-iser to test, when that obviously isn't the case.

This is reverse-talking, meaningless, misleading marketing-hype-type doublespeak.  Technically it is correct.  If you have 1000 batteries which are all completely dead, with 0 capacity left, 0 volts measured across the terminals, they still all have up to 80% of their original capacity left.  Misleading?  Of course!  True?  Unfortunately, technically, yes.  You never even have to see one with 80% capacity left for the statement to be true.  0 < 80 a thousand times over is still always true.  You can twist words around to make it sound like you're saying just about anything when you're technically not.  Very misleading weasel words, but it's done all the time!

Of course we can refute their claims without having an actual Batteriser to test but they have a vested intrest in trying to obfuscate the truth and mislead and confuse as many people as possible. 

That'll only work for so long, though, unless this becomes vaporware.  Sooner or later they'll have to actually start shipping some of their product and it will be obvious that they haven't lived up to their misleading marketing hype.

I can't wait!  This is going to be great! 

[Rasz]

"sheep psychology"

duh, Sheep Shearing!

I think 95% of this forum underestimated Hannah.

Guilty. I was pleasantly surprised she actually did the research, reached out to independent professors etc instead of reprinting PR bullshit most "news" outlets did.

[drussell]

I don't think this actually got posted, sorry if it is a dupe:

I didn't read the FCC report, I really just looked at the pictures, but the frequency emissions appear to have been taken at a distance of 3 metres?

So what happens when its a matter of centimetres from the device its installed in?

FCC requires only 3 m for the tested class: http://www.interferencetechnology.com/radiated-emission-measurements-at-1351030-meters/
But I guess it wouldn't be much different in the centimeters range, because the Batterise is so small, but might depend on wires in the device etc., too. Of course, no problem for a 1k resistor

Yeah... Remember that those part 15 FCC rules and tests to that end are only really intended to prevent excessive radiated emissions from doing things like interfering with radio and TV reception or otherwise causing general havoc in surrounding electonics and have nothing to do with something like a Batteriser generating and conducting or radiating undesired noise into whatever product they are installed in.  (Those FCC rules even state that your product must "accept any interference received, including that which may cause undesired operation")

I'm sure, though, that the radiated emissions from any boost converter, especially something like a Batteriser would be significantly higher at, say 1.5 A than they are at 1.5 mA... Who knows what they'll actually be like in real world, typical operation and how they will affect operation when put into some random device that may well have even been intentionally designed without a switching power supply and are assuming it will have a nice, clean, DC battery supply... 

Batteroo/Batteriser are essentially claiming to be able to do a better job of understanding almost every device's power requirements and doing a better job of re-engineering the power supply of that device for maximum performance than the original designers in almost every case. 

That is just complete hogwash. 

[samgab]

I also downloaded a brand new cell of the same make and model

I think we all would be more interested in your tele-transporter than a battery.

lol, oops, it was late. *discharged* fixed...

[SL4P]

Could someone that has been across all the claims, bs and fog of marketing-speak, please put together an easy to read matrix of claims vs actual posted/observed/claimed results?
Batteriser are welcome to contribute with evidence supported claims.

e.g   FCC, UL, date, chemistry, technology, fansite claims on one edge, and responders/ refuters along the other - with results at the meeting points...

This will clearly reveal truths, doublespeak, viable science and straight out falsehoods in an easy to understand format...  it's what Boob Ropahrvar should already have on his desk.

[Halcyon]

Nothing from the Batteroo Fan Boy (I'm starting to think he might be Roohparvar's little nephew perhaps?). Anyway, I'm just waiting for the "What would she know, she's just a journalist and you guys are all poopy heads!"

[samgab]

Nothing from the Batteroo Fan Boy (I'm starting to think he might be Roohparvar's little nephew perhaps?). Anyway, I'm just waiting for the "What would she know, she's just a journalist and you guys are all poopy heads!"

lol, or one of his alter egos, ie: "Daisy Datez" 

[Halcyon]

It's a good thing they had their "special" non-conductive coating on the Batteriser. By the looks of the FCC test, they tore the outer label off the battery. The regular "un-coated" batteriser would have just shorted out.

[Someone]

NIDA is a rather exclusive and well regarded organisation

Yes indeed. Many try and and don't make it in each year, let alone finish. If I really was a graduate of NIDA's full course I'd be a hell of a lot better on camera than I am, by maybe 10 orders of magnitude!

That doesn't really matter when you've already made it as a media personality

I'm sure, though, that the radiated emissions from any boost converter, especially something like a Batteriser would be significantly higher at, say 1.5 A than they are at 1.5 mA... Who knows what they'll actually be like in real world, typical operation and how they will affect operation when put into some random device that may well have even been intentionally designed without a switching power supply and are assuming it will have a nice, clean, DC battery supply... 

It will depend on the design of the switching convertor, if there is proportional current control (not just constant on time or pulse dropping) and those emissions are proportional to current through the switching node then it would likely fail the FCC compliance even with a benign 0.5A resistive load. If they ship units it could make for a hilarious report to the FCC from a studious person with enough space and a spectrum analyser.

I'd really like to get my hands on one of these if they ship, we have all the automated equipment to measure the power supply performance and an EMC chamber.

[EEVblog]

Could someone that has been across all the claims, bs and fog of marketing-speak, please put together an easy to read matrix of claims vs actual posted/observed/claimed results?
Batteriser are welcome to contribute with evidence supported claims.
e.g   FCC, UL, date, chemistry, technology, fansite claims on one edge, and responders/ refuters along the other - with results at the meeting points...
This will clearly reveal truths, doublespeak, viable science and straight out falsehoods in an easy to understand format...  it's what Boob Ropahrvar should already have on his desk.

At what point in the campaign though?
One of the more intriguing/confusing parts of this whole campaign is how their claims have changed/backtracked over time as they have been taken to task for various claims.

[Spudgun]

Adding to their arsenal.....

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/batteroo-adds-former-battery-company-technologist-environmental-advocate-to-advisory-board-300145134.html

[edy]

Adding to their arsenal.....

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/batteroo-adds-former-battery-company-technologist-environmental-advocate-to-advisory-board-300145134.html

What an interesting article. So they added a couple of more big shots. This is starting to look like a heavy-weight team of experts who obviously must know what they are doing. Just what is going on here? How do you add people to your board and what does that even mean to the company? Are they going to make money from shares or salary? Act as advisors?

I like how they quote Blomgren (Eveready Senior Technology Fellow? What is that?):

"I have been pleasantly surprised at the depth of understanding of the Roohparvar brothers regarding the Batteriser development,"

And then...

While their approach can work for any type of battery, the alkaline cell is particularly sensitive because of its steeply decreasing voltage during discharge.  The battery industry has never clearly explained this fact to the consumer, but battery experts have been well aware of the problem and the great waste encountered, especially when devices use relatively high cut-off voltages.

Then they quote Lilienfeld, the environmental expert as saying:

"Given the ability of Batteriser to significantly reduce battery discards, the savings to both the environment and people's wallets is enormous,"

Now this is all coming from PR Newswire which is simply regurgitating a media press release provided them by Batteroo.... obviously it is going to contain the same over-exaggerated claims they have been mentioning previously.

Wow! This is only getting better. Can't wait for the season finale! : popcorn:

[edy]

And they go on to say in the PR release:

Batteriser, currently the only device of its kind, has been tested and proven compatible on a variety of battery-operated home and office gadgets, including wireless keyboards, noise cancelling headphones, Xbox and Wii controllers, TV remote controls, walkie-talkies, digital scales, electric toothbrushes, toys, portable radios, flashlights, and blood pressure monitors.

What about GPS units? Forgot the most important one?

Well if they have done all that testing where is it. I hope these guys Blomgren and Lilienfeld know who they are associating with, lest they get sucked down the same hole once it all implodes in on itself.

[Nerull]

This thing is starting to remind me of the Firepower scam. An obvious scam from day one - a magic fuel saver pill you dropped in your gas tank - still managed to bring on high profile investors and secure the backing of the Australian government, including the PM. The "inventor" was receiving enough money to buy himself a few sports teams before the company folded with no product and he fled the country.