UK forum members, BREXIT?

[retrolefty]

Otherwise it like standing in the door, refusing going out and closing it finally, but instead pissing in the room for owner's appreciation.

Have you met my cat?

 Best post yet on this subject. 

[MT]

Or as George Orwell once said:

I had seen little evidence that the USSR/US/EU (etc) was progressing towards anything that one could truly call democracy. On the contrary, I was struck by clear signs of its transformation into a hierarchical society, in which the rulers have no more reason to give up their power than any other ruling class.

So the problem on the planet is not the elite it's those who "VOTE".

[zapta]

Or as George Orwell once said:

I had seen little evidence that the USSR/US/EU (etc) was progressing towards anything that one could truly call democracy. On the contrary, I was struck by clear signs of its transformation into a hierarchical society, in which the rulers have no more reason to give up their power than any other ruling class.

You are making things up. Orwell talked about the USSR and Socialism.

[VK3DRB]

United they stand, divided they fall.

I wonder if the majority of poms will be saying "It wasn't me." Just like most Aussies say they didn't vote for Rudd. Just like the anti-Vietnam war protesters from the early 70's in the US and Australia are nowhere to be found. Democracy is a failure in some countries when most of the population believe that is fed to them by prostitute politicians whose election campaigns are funded by major corporations, super wealthy and by power lobby groups like the NRA.

I think the poms made a big, BIG mistake. Time will tell.

[mtdoc]

You are making things up. Orwell talked about the USSR and Socialism.

Orwell's work directed it's criticism at totalitarianism in all its forms.

He was a strong advocate for and supporter of democratic socialism.

1984 was primarily a critique of society kept under control by fear with a state of constant surveillance and constant state of war - not unlike what we currently have in the west.

[zapta]

You are making things up. Orwell talked about the USSR and Socialism.

Orwell's work directed it's criticism at totalitarianism in all its forms.

He was a strong advocate for and supporter of democratic socialism.

1984 was primarily a critique of society kept under control by fear with a state of constant surveillance and constant state of war - not unlike what we currently have in the west.

Let Orwel speak for himself. Here is the original. Compare with MT's post.

Since 1930 I had seen little evidence that the USSR was progressing towards anything that one could truly call Socialism. On the contrary, I was struck by clear signs of its transformation into a hierarchical society, in which the rulers have no more reason to give up their power than any other ruling class

[mtdoc]

Since 1930 I had seen little evidence that the USSR was progressing towards anything that one could truly call Socialism. On the contrary, I was struck by clear signs of its transformation into a hierarchical society, in which the rulers have no more reason to give up their power than any other ruling class

Yes. As I said:  Orwell was a supporter of democratic socialism - which of course the USSR was not an example of.

[zapta]

Since 1930 I had seen little evidence that the USSR was progressing towards anything that one could truly call Socialism. On the contrary, I was struck by clear signs of its transformation into a hierarchical society, in which the rulers have no more reason to give up their power than any other ruling class

Yes. As I said:  Orwell was a supporter of democratic socialism - which of course the USSR was not an example of.

He also liked tea without sugar.

[rstofer]

United they stand, divided they fall.

I wonder if the majority of poms will be saying "It wasn't me." Just like most Aussies say they didn't vote for Rudd. Just like the anti-Vietnam war protesters from the early 70's in the US and Australia are nowhere to be found. Democracy is a failure in some countries when most of the population believe that is fed to them by prostitute politicians whose election campaigns are funded by major corporations, super wealthy and by power lobby groups like the NRA.

I think the poms made a big, BIG mistake. Time will tell.

The NRA isn't the big bad wolf it's portrayed to be.  Out of 100 million gun owners in the US, just about 5 million belong to the NRA.  If the others would sign up, the NRA could be a pretty big voting block.   But they won't...

[CatalinaWOW]

I used to be an NRA member.  I left because Wayne LaPierre is a nutcase.  I couldn't support the way the organization was run.  Black helicopters and other horse manure.

[mtdoc]

I believe the Brexit vote result has far broader implications than I've seen discussed here. The neoliberal economic polices of the political class (from both the left and the right) and their corporate backers have been gutting the working and middle class for the past 30 years primarily by moving manufacturing to low wage and environmental-regulation-free developing countries. 

The coordinated actions of the central bankers have served those same interests by punishing savers - encouraging borrowing and consumption of cheap consumer goods - all to the benefit of the financiers and trans-global corporate profits.  Distract the masses with cheap gadgets and entertainment. Bread and circuses.

The EU and EMU have been a central front in this program.  While their formation had good intent - a peaceful and united Europe to prevent a replay of the horrors of the last century's wars - it has more recently been used by the Troika as a tool to keep the neoliberal economic program from falling apart.

Without the ability to independently value their own currency, the southern European countries have had no tools to counteract the fallout from the borrow and spend mentality sold to them - turning them into debt serfs or essentially slaves of the Troika. The single currency was destined to cause failure of the EMU and EU eventually. This Brexit result only pushes up the timetable.

The Brits were smart enough to avoid that pitfall by staying out of the EMU but that has not protected them from the loss of manufacturing and now they've been faced with another side effect: The fallout from the endless middle east wars - with refugees on the doorstep and Muslims radicalized from decades of war and destruction.

All of this exactly mirrors the plight of the working and middle class here in the USA just as the Brexit vote is also mirrored by the Sanders and Trump phenomenon here.

All 3 of these things - Brexit, Sanders and Trump are signs that the establishment elites are loosing control. The are reaping what they have sown.

Many people are putting down their smartphones and waking up to what has been done to them.  They may not understand exactly what has happened but they know they've been wronged and they are ready to do whatever it takes to disrupt the status quo - even if it means short term economic pain.

It's unfortunate that history has demonstrated that these type of transformations are never smooth and without turmoil (and often war). Displaced workers blame outsiders and clever politicians can feed on that natural human tendency. Unfortunately in doing so they give safe harbor to racists and xenophobes which while usually small in number are loud enough to allow unfair generalizations to be made about all those who rail against the status quo. The politicos are quick to exploit such divisions in Goebble - esk fashion - whipping up political tribalism and nationalist sentiments.

We live in dangerous times.

[jitter]

Britain needs two more voting rounds:

1. Shall we have a vote for another vote in which we vote for "Remain" or "Leave".
2. Shall we "Remain" or "Leave", this time I really mean it after I Googled for "What is EU", "What it means to leave the EU" and the "£350m for the NHS" is not going to happen.

We voted.
It's DONE.

Oh no, the hard part is only just about to start... 
With such a small win for the Leave-camp, there's definitely going to be opposition from the Remain-camp; you're at the beginning of a long and winding road, and that's with the EU just sitting there and waiting  .

But that's not to say that the rest of the EU will have it easy either. There will be other proponents to leaving the EU that might feel more self assured to let their voices be heard now.
You know, as the inhabitant of a small country, I'm a bit suspicious towards the big countries like Germany and France. We don't feel treated equally, so for the EU to have a chance to survive, it might be good to overthink the current structure...
Unions only last as long as people feel content about them. It's clear some don't, and that's not just the British. But then those with the power will really be reluctant to give it up, ah well, l'histoire se répète... as the French say.

[vodka]

All the treateds ot trade that have Uk are with EU, when you had decided to exit EU all the trateds are nulls and have to negociate since 0, not only with EU else  with at all world(Usa,Canada, China).

Enjoy TTIP when the EU hands over your sovereignty to US corporations.

The EU has no deal with China   

I already have all the maple syrup I can eat

i  will certain enjoy ,  i will have table saw machine for 300-400 € and not as here that are beetween 1000-2000€ besides  the others tools that here i can't find or are very expensives.


The new train  silk route. Yiwu(China)-Madrid(Spain)
http://www.elperiodico.com/es/graficos/sociedad/tren-mas-largo-china-espana-7438/

[Corporate666]

Nah. Obama explicitly stated that if the UK leaves then all our trade deals will be at the back of the queue. So we will see what happens after the EU drunker Juncker manages to rattle off a scrawled signature signing away the rest of Europe to the globalist corporations despite all your concerned citizens and MEPs being totally against TTIP.

Unfortunate that our leader is a bit of a f-ing moron on some issues, like this one.

It was said as a way to exert pressure... to threaten the UK into not leaving.  The UK ought to move to the top of the list.  They are our oldest and staunchest ally and one of the largest economies in the world.

The special relationship doesn't mean much if the USA kicks the UK while they are down.  A very very sweetheart of a trade deal should be announced and quickly implemented - a trade deal that surpasses any other trade deal we have with anyone else.

That's just basic common sense.

[Simon]

Well I voted leave for better or worse. It was actually partly out of frustration with the ignorance of people don't seem to know how things work. Everything is Europe's fault well now we are out we have only ourselves to blame! I am afraid that if I made the wrong decision it is the fault of the in campaign because instead of playing things in the usual political way of just making counterclaims and telling more lies they should have done things differently. It is well known that there is a lot of ignorance about how things actually work so if the in campaign was so fucking keen why weren't they organising public meetings and lectures for people like myself who genuinely wanted to know what was going on. Instead no they just did like the out campaign told lies and delivered loads of leaflets and try to counteract the claims of the out campaign.

I have had 2 versions of every argument told to me so I have basically been given no information at all. I don't even know what I need to start searching for I don't know what the EU does. I know very little. I have been told that we have the 4th loudest voice in the EU and this is because we are the 4th biggest contributor. Well this unsettles me for starters if this is a democratic thing why is it that the more you pay the more you can say and the more you can have it your way? Why do we have countries in the union that are not on an equal footing with the original founding countries? I did not vote out because of immigration I am well aware that the UK government already has full control over immigration and if we are having problems it's their own sorry fault. Of course the in campaigners were very quick to tell us just how many people have emigrated from the UK to Europe well as it actually happens a lot of those are pensioners, their health care costs I believe are paid by the UK so they are not a burden on the countries they land in and they are pouring money into the economy they live in because they buy houses and they spend their pensions that are drawn from the UK in those countries.

I spent 14 years in Italy so I got to see a little bit of the other side. The euro was the biggest fucking disaster ever. When I lived in Italy and they had the lira the exchange rate to the pound which my English grandfather would watch very carefully as his pension came from England would vary wildly over a few weeks from 2500 lira to the pound to 3200 lira to the pound that's a variation of around 10 to 15% either way from the mean and we are whingeing about a 10% change that reverted to 4.5% 6 hours later after we have taken one of the most momentous decisions in history? Some people need to get a fucking grip. Of course once countries like Italy had locked themselves into a Euro well they're stuck and we saw that with Greece. Italy like many other countries I believe Greece Spain and Portugal and probably more wanted to join the euro for some on earthly reason but because their economies were not up to par with say France and Germany they had to pay a fee to join. I never quite got the point of paying a fee to join something you're not up to joining. I assume this was some sort of insurance policy well unfortunately insurance is gambling and I think they gambled the wrong way Europe that is or maybe it's just worse for the countries affected and Europe is gaining gain it's so complicated nobody understands it.

During my time in Italy it became extremely clear that any migrant that made it Italy would have preferred the UK. I don't know why this is maybe it's true that we are lenient with benefits I sure hope we are not because when we returned to the UK my sister was denied jobseekers allowance because "she did not have any ties in the country" she only had what was left of her family at the time of the ruling had already joined a social club and helped raise money in the community and with myself was part owner of a house in England never mind the fact she was born in this country and had a British passport yet she was denied benefit so I sure hope migrants aren't getting a better deal than this. A colleague I worked with from Romania kept asking me to help him get to England and I kept saying why? You are a printer there are no printing jobs in the UK he wanted to come back with me and start our own printing business yet I knew that unemployment was already high here and yet they still wanted to come. This man had initially paid £10,000 for a fake British passport but in his case he got conned he paid his money and never saw the passport. So Italy was his next port of call it easy to get into and the local police were well aware he was an illegal migrant and could not care less. Once you are in a country in the EU it is easier for you to move around within the EU so you find the weakest country to enter.......

I hope that people will now take more of an interest in their country because what is scandalous is that more people turned out for this vote which is about something that they cannot directly control and turned out to vote for their own local MP you know the person they can actually make an appointment with to talk to to tell their views to and hope that under the influence of their constituent views will make decisions in their best interests. What likelihood have I speaking to my MEP or any other member of the European Parliament? But alas I fear that we will just go back to blaming another political establishment and not doing anything about anything. We supposedly live in a democracy and we only get things done when we shout about it. The very distasteful thing I found about the campaign was amount of people that were treating the vote on the EU as a vote of confidence in our own government. Granted we can have a nasty bastard as Prime Minister but we had one of those already and if people don't like something they should protest.

[VK3DRB]

I used to be an NRA member.  I left because Wayne LaPierre is a nutcase.  I couldn't support the way the organization was run.  Black helicopters and other horse manure.

Wayne LaPierre's annual salary is close to $US 1 million. Some people would kill to earn that much.

[Howardlong]

Simon

What that tells us is that everyone has their own reasons for voting the way they did.

There is a rather ugly trait from many people who should know better who have been prejudging and stereotyping what they see as a Leave voter, generally along the lines of accusations of racism, bogotry, xenophobia, being ignorant, uneducated, gullible, or any combination of those things. All of which I find interesting because such prejuducial mantra isn't what I would expect from some of those spewing the vitriol. When challenenged it's, "Oh, I don't mean you"... errrr, well, who did you mean?!!

Certainly in my own case, my own concerns were over increased federalisation, fiscal parity and continued expansion into fiscally incompatible states, and nobody can explain what the benefit of any of that is other than for the self serving EU gravy train.

The EU in its original form, the EEC, or Common Market, was meant to create a common trading area, but along the line it has been successively morphed into something quite different, and something that is out of control, accountable only to itself, and is apparently unstoppable. If that is what the EU's idea of reform is, I don't want it thank you.

If the remain campaign had offered any evidence that the EU is capable of reform away from their current super state mentality, I am sure many would have thought differently.

Regarding the lies, it was hardly difficult to be able to see that things like claiming all the £350m pw going to the EU was going to be put into the NHS was bollocks. There have been a few others presented like this, somewhat repetitively, but I think it's rather naive to suggest that a voter couldn't see through it. I could equally well spell out plenty of lies from the remain side, such as the denials that Turkey was to join, or that the EU is capable of reform, or that the UK could negotiate anything more than tiny breadcrumbs.

This fella pretty much explains my view in general as far as I'm concerned:

[G7PSK]

I also voted to leave partly due to the fact that I saw voting in forty odd years ago as a mistake I could rectify, but I was for in until we started to get threatened by the likes of Obama, and like many other British people and probably other nationalities as well once threatened we dig our heels in and do the opposite. 

[Howardlong]

I also voted to leave partly due to the fact that I saw voting in forty odd years ago as a mistake I could rectify, but I was for in until we started to get threatened by the likes of Obama, and like many other British people and probably other nationalities as well once threatened we dig our heels in and do the opposite.

Indeed, having someone from the outside telling you how to vote is hardly going to be treated with anything other than to question their motives. Almost certainly Obama would have been reading from something heavily based on a Cameron prepared text.

What's more interesting is that I saw it merely as preaching to the converted, but you saw it as a threat. As I said, we all had our own reasons.

[Simon]

I was pretty astonished by Obama's claim. One of my reasons for voting out was because I don't want his trade deal he can keep his flipping trade deal. America does not like buying from the outside why should we buy from America? At work we designed a system for a customer that customer has now sold the widest system our system goes on to America. The Americans only want half system because they have decided to supply their own version of the other half yet I have a connector dealer wanting to sell me cheap shit connectors from America because that is the only way of them being cheaper than the nice connectors made in Europe. Why should I have to buy American connectors when the Americans won't buy the system the connectors go on?

The disaster in our steel industry demonstrates what we need to do. And on this point in particular I got opposing arguments from both sides so I decided out then there is no excuse for a sporting import duties on goods that require it. I'm not saying I think everything should have import duties but when you are getting cheap shit from China it should be made to be expensive shit so that whoever buys it learns a sharp lesson and it makes better quality product made in our own country more viable. I'm not particularly a fan of protectionism but what do you do about economies that are able to produce much cheaper then you simply because there everything is worthless? If you have equal economies competing in the sale of the product the Best product will win because the price will depend on the product. But when you are talking China is not a lot you can do except slap great big import duty on it.

And yes I voted out despite the fact that the whole reason I am selling micro currents for Dave is that it is easier for me to sell them into Europe being in the EU than it is for Dave. But I think there are bigger things to worry about than a little bit of short term gain.

[pelule]

but I was for in until we started to get threatened by the likes of Obama, and like many other British people and probably other nationalities as well once threatened we dig our heels in and do the opposite.

As I previous to the voting mentioned, the voting will be emotionel at the end.

[Simon]

And not a lot of people seem to realise that the Chinese put 100% import duty on everything they buy in so what are we playing at? No doubt somebody is gaining let me guess some big businessman that are importing this crap and then selling it to us for inflated prices that is why the government is weak on these things because big business speaks louder than those who elect them.

[diyaudio]

If UK exit Putin will have a bottle of champagne

Why should we care? We are not at war with him. Ohh he took an Island with an important naval base and a near 100% ethnically Russian population and helped a Russian region in Georgia.

We Who?I just mentioned a fact! Ooh, Putin shoot down a airliner full of Dutch people, why should you care/ be bothered by such a little pesky thing.. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36350520

In the mean time we threw tons of money at the Ukraine to destabilize a government and subsequently coming very close to putting a bunch of genocidal neo-nazis into power. For what? To create a money pit the EU is somehow obligated to pour billions into year after year? (Mark my words, we will bail the IMF out in the Ukraine soon. My country's annoying little referendum delayed it a bit, but they will get the money train back on the rails. There is no alternative.)We bombed Lybia to hell and all the EU got out of it was a massive increase in boats with refugees. Our "allies" are a much bigger danger to us than Putin.

The reason EU+ US bombed the pants of Gaddafi was because the dude was about to commit mass murder but WE then after his death deliberately forgot to seize all the European made armory we had sold to the sleazebag. Here the list for you to study:
http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/mar/01/eu-arms-exports-libya

But heey, you might like Gaddafi since EU made a deal with the dude to stop immigrants from Africa..How sad that "WE" then bombed the shit out of the dude..

War in Ukraine are "big elephant politics" way above your ideas about neo natzi government, btw majority of those loose nazi cannons are integrated into the Ukraine army(how convenient). If you haven't noticed yet "fascism" is popular these days, both in us europe/us and surprise Russia! Yeah Putin is really a fascist if you look into what he says and his actions! How strange for a dude with sovjiet KGB background but with Russia nothing is impossible even civil war and if its going to be nasty and very dangerous, it's all west's fault as he like to say!

do actually believe what you read from the bbc? theguardian? and then propagate those as facts? 

[rch]

The EU in its original form, the EEC, or Common Market, was meant to create a common trading area, but along the line it has been successively morphed into something quite different, 

That's a big part of our (the UK's) problem.   It was sold to *us* by *our* politicians as merely a common trading area, but the people who started it had a mission to unify Europe so as to prevent future wars.   Anyone who thinks a new world war couldn't start in Europe only has to look at the Balkans.   Since the EU was mis-sold to us as merely for free trade, it is not surprising some of us are increasingly disillusioned, but the founding states definitely had more in mind.  FWIW, I am with them in wanting a unified Europe, even if it means compromises.

[Simon]

my hope is that we can now negotiate the trade that we originally thought we were buying into without all the other crap. My hope is that now we have to debate stuff in our own government instead of argue it in europe poeple will hear about what is going on and take an interest.