UK forum members, BREXIT?

[Simon]

Well I voted leave ...well now we are out we have only ourselves to blame...The euro was the biggest fucking disaster ever... and had a British passport yet she was denied benefit so I sure hope migrants aren't getting a better deal than this.

What a surprise. I previously saw you as somebody from the top-3 PolCo guys/girls/trans/... of this forum, and in my simplification of the happening they al vote Remain.

And not a lot of people seem to realise that the Chinese put 100% import duty on everything they buy in so what are we playing at? No doubt somebody is gaining let me guess some big businessman that are importing this crap and then selling it to us for inflated prices that is why the government is weak on these things because big business speaks louder than those who elect them.

Sounds like you suddenly even prefer the self-proclaimed strong-negotiator that promises to make his country great again :-)

Actually 25% of the green party voted leave some of us do think for ourselves, some of those in ukip voted to remain beleive it or not. Now I am not talking about "making my country great again", I am talking about making the best possible future for us.

I cound't care less about your attitude towards me (heaven forbid i be seen to ban you for having a go at me) but you seem to be getting a bit hot under the collar in this thread. As you should know, as a rule we don't do politics on this forum for a reason, this is so big i guess we make an exception, but discussing politics should not be exchanged for "anything goes" I haven't forgotten some of your past posts - You've been warned!

Oh and what exactly is: top-3 PolCo guys/girls/trans ?

[Delta]

  Is that what you class as "plenty of evidence".

WTF is it then? Is it OK to behave in this way?

Over 17,000,000 people disagreed with your opinion on the EU.  That does not make them racist.  You epitomise the Liberal Elite that is incredibly out-of-touch with the people they are meant to represent.

And 16,141,241 voters agreed. You are behaving as though the result were 99% to 1% not 51.9% to 48.1%

Not all the 17 (and almost a half) voters who backed Leave are racist, it would be madness to suggest that but the fact of increased clearly racial attacks citing the referendum result does not make me feel comfortable.

But what of immigration? - no I am not "out of touch"; it is clearly a sensitive issue even without overt racism.

But we failed to control non-EU immigration which is about half of all immigration. Why? there is a points system to ensure only those workers we need are allowed in.

Could it just be that we actually need these people?
Could it be that we will continue to do so even after leaving the EU?

No of course it is not acceptable to behave in that manner, don't be ridiculous.  That sort of shit is appalling.

What I meant (as I'm sure you know) is that it is also ridiculous to insinuate that 17.5M people who disagree with you are all nasty bigots based on 100 cases of "racism" (as a pedant I hate the conflation of xenophobia and racism) reported on social media.

[MT]

So I did and my observation is you constantly derail this thread,

You have merely observed what fits your ad hominem bullshit talk agenda. You like other figures look for easy stuff to get deliberately butt hurt on.

often with brainwashed comments particularly hateful towards Russia. You openly called Russia the enemy.

Well ,your reply is pretty brain dead but no, not russia, but Putin yes he's a dangerous individual behaving like a tsar now about creating a big presidential army! Had no idea you was such a Putin/Trump butt licker/apologists, but those often lurk in the shadows when one least expect it. Cant see you whine about forum user Aspis Russian /Putin comments? perhaps because we have the same view on Putin?

You also post seemingly funny pictures but in a context where they may be taken offensively by parts of the audience.

You are allowed to close your eyes when such pictures pops up, such as this one!

I think you do it deliberately to shape the reader's mind.

It never struct me that people on this forum are so stupid as you portray them to be it's actually possibly to bend their minds!
Thanks for the tip mate! You really came out as ""being supreme" everyone else!

What are you doing on this forum? Do you have an agenda? If not, my advice is the same as that of other people have given you - consume less propaganda and stop derailing this thread, which is otherwise is conducted in a civilized manner given the sensitivity of the topic being discussed.

What are you doing in this forum and in this thread? No one forces you to read it? Dont see you have contributed much to the debate.
Whats your agenda except for lame ad hominems? Propaganda is from friend Trump and Putin and some others, derailing has already
been tried out early on by the racist card players and even Hitler was mentioned i recall  where where you then and crying your crocodile tears?

[XynxNet]

The EU is the [...] anti-democratic organisation.

I'am alway baffled by this argument.

Every EU citizen has two ways of representation.
EU parliament (with represantatives you voted in) and council which consists of the government represantatives of each country (democratically elected according to your country's rules). Each of these two bodies can veto every decision.

So please talk to your democratically elected government or your member of eu parialament, if you feel misrepresented. It's not some anonymous eu bureaucrat making those decisions, but people you/we voted in.

How EU decisions are made.

[Fraser]

OK, this thread is starting to head where I feared it might, things getting bitchy.

OK, how about floating blue sky thinking ideas on correcting the situation in the EU rather than nit picking over the BREXIT referendum.

For starters, why did an intelligent country decide to 'risk all' and leave the EU ? What on earth could cause such a sea change in public opinion within a country. This was not a few peeved MEP's here, it was half of the flipping country. We ARE NOT racists or isolationists so those options is shelved OK?

From my understanding of the situation, the following occurred.....

1. The U.K. Joined with its friends in Europe in a Common Market. Nothing bad about that right ?
2. Over the years the Common Market evolved into the EU and there was a desire for all members to become one big happy family with a common currency and common central 'Government'. AKA a superstate. Ooooops this is not what the UK signed up to or want so they decline the EURO and resist central Governance.
3. The U.K. Holds discussions with the EU and is basically told to get with the program and become fully integrated into the EU. This creates a core difference of opinion between the UK and the EU leadership.
4. Instead of being good Diplomats and smoothing ruffled feathers, the EU leadership chose to get dictatorial and play hard ball with the U.K. This was not the action of a friendly EU leadership wishing to retain the UK within its ranks. Some members of the EU leadership come across as positively hostile to the UK.
5. The U.K. Is a very reserved and traditional country that does not wish to be absorbed into a Superstate. It does not mind a close friendship and trade with the EU but it still wants its independence. Is that so wrong provided it contributes to the EU ?  The EU claim to want the UK in their project yet remain hostile at meetings that could have reduced UK fears of absorption into the 'collective'.
6. After many years of various disagreements with the EU,the U.K. Government offer their population a Referendum on EU membership. The EU leadership realises the potential nightmare that could unfold if the UK were to leave their project and move to assess the likelihood of such occurring. The risk analysis team believe the UK is not serious about leaving so no significant action is recommended.
7. Cameron enters into negotiations with the EU leadership in the hope of obtaining enough reform within the EU to keep his countries population content to stay within the EU. Cameron is treated with disdain and the EU leadership make no real effort to allay the fears that Cameron presents and no meaningful reassurances for the UK come out of the talk. Many in the UK population turn more hostile towards the EU leadership and suspect they have anterior motives for their 'hard ball' tactics. BREXIT sees a surge in support.
8. The EU leadership watch the developing situation in the U.K. But still believe the U.K. Population will not have the guts to vote to leave. There is a level of arrogance in the EU leadership that is hard to miss or understand. They act like they cannot be resisted or ignored.
9. The U.K holds its referendum and the population are so concerned about the EU's apparent contempt for the UK and its wishes, that more than half the country vote to leave. A nightmare for the EU leadership comes to pass and they were unprepared.
10. Much rhetoric follows. What a mess.

Could this not have all been avoided if there were better people at the top of the EU who were better Diplomats and able to negotiate without insulting their adversaries ? I believe so.

The EU leadership played into the hands of those in the UK who said that the EU did not have our best interests at heart.

BIG MISTAKE.

The U.K. Made its position clear and were ignored. Do not blame us for voting to leave what we see as a hostile organisation.

So much more could have been done to prevent this.

Fraser

[vodka]

Scottish nationalists pose brexit block from parliament

Scottish chief minister, Nicola Sturgeon, said the Scottish Parliament could block the exit of the UK EU.

https://www.rt.com/uk/348432-sturgeon-england-scotland-border/

[MK14]

Scottish nationalists pose brexit block from parliament

Scottish chief minister, Nicola Sturgeon, said the Scottish Parliament could block the exit of the UK EU.

https://www.rt.com/uk/348432-sturgeon-england-scotland-border/

You are using RT as a source ?

Realistically it is NOT going to happen. I.e. They will NOT be able to block it.

The whole of the UK has voted.

Everyone, including them, need to abide by the majority.

They already (somewhat recently) voted to STAY in the UK. So they have to abide by their decisions.

It was a UK wide vote (Brexit), NOT separate cities/countries.

[rch]

MT,

I am sad that you resorted to posting an image of the pond life that is Saville. Poor taste mate. He does not represent what it is to be British or anything about our culture. He is hated throughout the UK for what he did. No one is defending his actions. Every country has child molesters, he was sadly in a unique position to take advantage of celebrity and avoid detection.

Fraser

But of course he was extravagantly loved for 40 years.    And he *boasted*  during those years and in his books how he took advantage of young female fans (without actually mentioning the bedbound and 10 year old ones).   And anyone who criticised him was vilified by the tabloid press, as an intellectual snob, and as having no sense of fun.

[Simon]

Can this thread calm down before I lock it! sounds like the referendum campaign all over again - Bollocks

[Fraser]

What could be done to resolve this situation?

Well if the EU really wanted the UK to stay and return stability to the project they could come out and publicly say they want to work with the U.K. To address the concerns of over half its population. Maybe not all concerns can be addressed, but it is far better than the current and somewhat childish 'attitude' that we are witnessing from some EU leaders.

The U.K. Government could then propose another option for the UK and hold another referendum. I believe the UK would likely vote to stay if the EU leadership were shown to be less dictatorial and hostile towards the UK and its people.

It ain't over until the fat lady sings

With regards to Scotland and a Veto...... I think not. Their veto only applies to minor EU related proposals and nothing as major as a departure from the EU.

Parliament can vote to not leave the EU though. We may yet see that happen. The EU leadership could help by being more friendly though !

The benefits of this action would be stability in World markets and hopefully a happy EU 'family'

At the end of the day, the British 'Lion' has roared and people have realised that we are really pi**ed off with the EU leadership. If the UK is really welcome in the EU, the 'Big Cat' can be calmed !

Fraser

[Simon]

What could be done to resolve this situation?

Well if the EU really wanted the UK to stay and return stability to the project they could come out and publicly say they want to work with the U.K. To address the concerns of over half its population. Maybe not all concerns can be addressed, but it is far better than the current and somewhat childish 'attitude' that we are witnessing from some EU leaders.

The U.K. Government could then propose another option for the UK any hold another referendum. I believe the UK would likely vote to stay if the EU leadership were shown to be less dictatorial and hostile towards the UK and its people.

It ain't over until the fat lady sings

With regards to Scotland and a Veto...... I think not. Their veto only applies to minor EU related proposals and nothing as major as a departure from the EU.

Parliament can vote to not leave the EU though. We may yet see that happen. The EU leadership could help by being more friendly though !

The benefits of this action would be stability in World markets and hopefully a happy EU 'family'

At the end of the day, the British 'Lion' has roared and people have realised that we are recalled pi**ed off with the EU leadership. If the UK is really welcome in the EU, the 'Big Cat' can be calmed !

Fraser

To be fair a lot of the out vote was just racist. I doubt many of the outers had even heared of TTIP

[vodka]

Scottish nationalists pose brexit block from parliament

Scottish chief minister, Nicola Sturgeon, said the Scottish Parliament could block the exit of the UK EU.

https://www.rt.com/uk/348432-sturgeon-england-scotland-border/

You are using RT as a source ?


Realistically it is NOT going to happen. I.e. They will NOT be able to block it.

The whole of the UK has voted.

Everyone, including them, need to abide by the majority.

They already (somewhat recently) voted to STAY in the UK. So they have to abide by their decisions.

It was a UK wide vote (Brexit), NOT separate cities/countries.

I  too see other media as  Libertaddigital a  anti-Putin newspaper
http://www.libertaddigital.com/internacional/europa/2016-06-26/los-nacionalistas-escoceses-plantean-bloquear-el-brexit-desde-su-parlamento-1276577152/

[vodka]

What could be done to resolve this situation?

Well if the EU really wanted the UK to stay and return stability to the project they could come out and publicly say they want to work with the U.K. To address the concerns of over half its population. Maybe not all concerns can be addressed, but it is far better than the current and somewhat childish 'attitude' that we are witnessing from some EU leaders.

The U.K. Government could then propose another option for the UK and hold another referendum. I believe the UK would likely vote to stay if the EU leadership were shown to be less dictatorial and hostile towards the UK and its people.

It ain't over until the fat lady sings

With regards to Scotland and a Veto...... I think not. Their veto only applies to minor EU related proposals and nothing as major as a departure from the EU.

Parliament can vote to not leave the EU though. We may yet see that happen. The EU leadership could help by being more friendly though !

The benefits of this action would be stability in World markets and hopefully a happy EU 'family'

At the end of the day, the British 'Lion' has roared and people have realised that we are recalled pi**ed off with the EU leadership. If the UK is really welcome in the EU, the 'Big Cat' can be calmed !

Fraser

Investigating possible fraud in the request for a new referendum

The press has reported that there are many signatories from foreign countries such as North Korea.

http://www.libertaddigital.com/internacional/europa/2016-06-26/investigan-posible-fraude-en-la-peticion-de-un-nuevo-referendum-1276577151/

[MK14]

I  too see other media as  Libertaddigital a  anti-Putin newspaper
http://www.libertaddigital.com/internacional/europa/2016-06-26/los-nacionalistas-escoceses-plantean-bloquear-el-brexit-desde-su-parlamento-1276577152/

I have seen the story about it on the BBC, and agree the basic story is VALID.

But worry about RT, as I think I have heard rumors that it is Russian and potentially a propaganda machine. I.e. Can't necessarily be trusted.

[MK14]

Investigating possible fraud in the request for a new referendum

The press has reported that there are many signatories from foreign countries such as North Korea.

http://www.libertaddigital.com/internacional/europa/2016-06-26/investigan-posible-fraude-en-la-peticion-de-un-nuevo-referendum-1276577151/

The basic concept was SILLY anyway.
If 25,000,000 in the UK voted for OptionA

And 20,000,000 in the UK voted for OptionB
OptionA wins the majority.

In the next few days, you could easily have up to 20,000,000 people proposing a 2nd vote and/or referendum.

But it is getting silly. The vote has officially happened, and people need to accept the result and move on.
It is obvious that there could be many millions of unhappy voters (as regards Brexit) in the UK, since they were in a minority.

But such is life!

[Delta]

Scottish nationalists pose brexit block from parliament

Scottish chief minister, Nicola Sturgeon, said the Scottish Parliament could block the exit of the UK EU.

https://www.rt.com/uk/348432-sturgeon-england-scotland-border/

Haha, best of luck with that one, Sturge!  She is like a spoilt child, you lost your own referendum two years ago, Nic!

[Marco]

Funnily enough it seems that there is now plenty of evidence that there was not just "concern about immigration" but out and out racism behind the Leave vote.

What is racism any way? The belief that groups of people with a common phenotype and geographic origin can have genetically determined predispositions which make them less able to contribute to certain types of societies than others? (Potentially from inbreeding.)

Or is racism the kind of mindset which would even ask the question and is the only way to be non racist to never even allow such to be countenanced? Rhetorical question of course, it's the latter and I have already exposed myself as a racist :/

The sad thing is that leaving the EU might not reduce immigration. It might even increase it if large numbers rush to "get in before the doors close".

Only from the EU and only the people who can hold a steady job would have much benefit from it, because the rest would be deported after a while. This final boost of selective immigration would help the post brexit UK economy. Just like the rest of the high employment rate eastern European immigrants were a boon.

[Delta]

To be fair a lot of the out vote was just racist. I doubt many of the outers had even heared of TTIP

"a lot"?  Would you care to quantify that please?  This is an engineering forum after all.

[MT]

I  too see other media as  Libertaddigital a  anti-Putin newspaper
http://www.libertaddigital.com/internacional/europa/2016-06-26/los-nacionalistas-escoceses-plantean-bloquear-el-brexit-desde-su-parlamento-1276577152/

I have seen the story about it on the BBC, and agree the basic story is VALID.

But worry about RT, as I think I have heard rumors that it is Russian and potentially a propaganda machine. I.e. Can't necessarily be trusted.

RT is indeed a Putin machine.
But the Putin propaganda apparatus is mainly for internal use to keep the people in order, most outside Russia just chuckles when they try to export it.

[vodka]

For starters, why did an intelligent country decide to 'risk all' and leave the EU ? What on earth could cause such a sea change in public opinion within a country. This was not a few peeved MEP's here, it was half of the flipping country. We ARE NOT racists or isolationists so those options is shelved OK?

You know how many debt have the UK, almost 90%

http://www.datosmacro.com/deuda

What do you happen if the world owner order their sheepdogs that don't borrow any pound to UK?

They are very disappointed with you , and when the mafia bosses are angry,are very dangerous

[MK14]

RT is indeed a Putin machine.
But the Putin propaganda apparatus is mainly for internal use to keep the people in order, most outside Russia just chuckles when they try to export it.

Thanks for the clarification.
Sometimes (but very rarely), people have linked to it (or similar), because they (the Russians), have invented some super-duper mega new weapon. With phenomenal destructive powers, and they are boasting about it on one of these sources.
Then technical people, tear it to pieces and say it is complete nonsense, and couldn't work like that in a million years.
These days, North Korea sometimes takes the biscuit/lead, in such claims.

[Simon]

To be fair a lot of the out vote was just racist. I doubt many of the outers had even heared of TTIP

"a lot"?  Would you care to quantify that please?  This is an engineering forum after all.

I can't quantify, but most times i have heared from someone about leaving the EU it was because of immigration with many being very derogatory about non british people. I'm not in a position to poll the whole country myself. The fact is if people got off their asses they could do all of those low skilled jobs that immigrants do but no one in their right mind would employ a british worker over say a polish person. The only good and conciencus assembler we have on the shop floor at work is polish and he is more qualified in poland than anyone else. I came back to the UK at 24 with no valid UK qualifications, yet i have a job, granted poorly paid but i work as a design engineer and all I'm qualified to do is stack shelves, jobs are there, but many people can't be assed to work and usually it is these that are rascist and regard immigration as the root of all evil.

Many of us had sound reasons for voting out. But no one will ever convince me that the out campaign won because people voted with their heads. the majority of the out vote in my opinion was based on "fuck those foreigners stealing the jobs we can't be arsed to do".

[Marco]

What do you happen if the world owner order their sheepdogs that don't borrow any pound to UK?

Print money, unlike the Greeks they own the printing press for their debts. They can inflate it away.

There are costs to doing so, but those costs can be lower than repaying it without inflation.

[MK14]

Print money, unlike the Greeks they own the printing press for their debts. They can inflate it away.

There are costs to doing so, but those costs can be lower than repaying it without inflation.

It is a bit like "closed loop" vs "open loop".

Printing money/inflation (closed loop), causes reasonably quick corrections, so that things sort of are automatically controlled.

But being tied to the Euro (open loop), means that if things go very badly wrong, the costs can keep on skyrocketing (hence open loop), since there are only limited mechanisms to rein in the excessive spending/borrowing etc. Until things go really REALLY bad! (E.g. Greece).

[Tepe]

So please talk to your democratically elected government

In my country the electorate does not elect the government - it elects the parliament. Furthermore, the government is supposedly executive, not legislative. I do agree with our British friends that there is indeed a democratic problem.