Author Topic: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B  (Read 322783 times)

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Offline tmf

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #575 on: October 17, 2016, 06:27:30 pm »
Nice fast response... always a good sign :)

When you say missing production features, what might some of these be, I think for my case use its not important....

I have run the demo, looks good.

Wish I was closer to you... I am Ottawa Ontario Canada... but if a developer were close I would be more than willing to work with them.

From what I can see the machine mechanically is good, its the software that is very suspect, especially when they need a XY scale factor fudge! mine are like 0.9985 0.9995, ouch!

Richard.

A few things off the top of my head:

* Not very easy to run a partial job, or continue an aborted job.
* Doesn't show status of each placement during the job run. This is tied to the above and is a long running TODO. Just haven't quite gotten to it.
* Does not use fiducial board scaling. I have not really had people report this being an issue, but it might be for people who are running a lot of boards. By scaling I mean that OpenPnP uses the fiducial to find the position and rotation of the board, but it does not adjust the placements based on the distance between fiducials. That would help handle boards that are not made perfectly, so that could be a concern for some users.
* Bottom vision is pretty new and may be somewhat confusing to new users. UI needs work.

In general, OpenPnP is pick and place software imagined by someone who has never touched a real pick and place. That's me :) I saw the need for the software, no one else was writing it and now here we are. It does work, and there are a lot of people using it for production work, but I feel like if you are coming from a commercial pick and place expectation there may be some disappointment. I guess the one major benefit, though, is that it's open source, so if there's something that really bugs you there is at least the possibility that it can be fixed.

Anyway, I will monitor this thread and the other TVM one and gauge interest. If it seems viable, I suppose the bounty funds could be used to fly me to someone who has a machine :)

Also, as for working with a developer nearby - I am completely open to that. If we can find someone who knows Java and is interested in the task I'd be more than happy to guide them remotely.

Jason

Typically I find all boards I have ever used are very accurate across them no scaling needed :-)

Bottom vision is important to place parts accurately so need to watch that one....

It would be interesting to send the 802 commands over ethernet to move say 300mm and see if it really moves 300mm cause if we need to add a fudge factor to openpnp.... damn! why they need it.... no real idea other than they do not have a handle on floating point rounding....

Yes it would be nice to have a list of placed parts and be able to check off already placed or re-place any parts as you can with the current software, that is for sure good.

All these items can be address by bounties, from people like me that are willing to help out financially....

Richard.


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Offline tmf

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #576 on: October 17, 2016, 06:29:39 pm »

Quote
Another thing to note, since the machine is entirely TCP/IP based (correct me if I'm wrong there) I could potentially work with the machine remotely with someone's on site assistance. We could open a port to the machine and I can just connect to it from here.

Camera's are USB....

Willing to help anyway I can....

Richard.
Man of many hats :-)

 

Offline vonnieda

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #577 on: October 17, 2016, 06:47:05 pm »
Nice fast response... always a good sign :)

When you say missing production features, what might some of these be, I think for my case use its not important....

I have run the demo, looks good.

Wish I was closer to you... I am Ottawa Ontario Canada... but if a developer were close I would be more than willing to work with them.

From what I can see the machine mechanically is good, its the software that is very suspect, especially when they need a XY scale factor fudge! mine are like 0.9985 0.9995, ouch!

Richard.

A few things off the top of my head:

* Not very easy to run a partial job, or continue an aborted job.
* Doesn't show status of each placement during the job run. This is tied to the above and is a long running TODO. Just haven't quite gotten to it.
* Does not use fiducial board scaling. I have not really had people report this being an issue, but it might be for people who are running a lot of boards. By scaling I mean that OpenPnP uses the fiducial to find the position and rotation of the board, but it does not adjust the placements based on the distance between fiducials. That would help handle boards that are not made perfectly, so that could be a concern for some users.
* Bottom vision is pretty new and may be somewhat confusing to new users. UI needs work.

In general, OpenPnP is pick and place software imagined by someone who has never touched a real pick and place. That's me :) I saw the need for the software, no one else was writing it and now here we are. It does work, and there are a lot of people using it for production work, but I feel like if you are coming from a commercial pick and place expectation there may be some disappointment. I guess the one major benefit, though, is that it's open source, so if there's something that really bugs you there is at least the possibility that it can be fixed.

Anyway, I will monitor this thread and the other TVM one and gauge interest. If it seems viable, I suppose the bounty funds could be used to fly me to someone who has a machine :)

Also, as for working with a developer nearby - I am completely open to that. If we can find someone who knows Java and is interested in the task I'd be more than happy to guide them remotely.

Jason

Typically I find all boards I have ever used are very accurate across them no scaling needed :-)

Bottom vision is important to place parts accurately so need to watch that one....

It would be interesting to send the 802 commands over ethernet to move say 300mm and see if it really moves 300mm cause if we need to add a fudge factor to openpnp.... damn! why they need it.... no real idea other than they do not have a handle on floating point rounding....

Yes it would be nice to have a list of placed parts and be able to check off already placed or re-place any parts as you can with the current software, that is for sure good.

All these items can be address by bounties, from people like me that are willing to help out financially....

Richard.

Agreed - I don't think there are any showstoppers. It was more of just a warning that it may need some work before it completely suits your needs.

I will spend a little time in the next night or two digging up everything I've saved or seen about these machines. I am pretty sure someone did some data captures, and I think someone tried to write a driver. In addition, I think I have some information about the cameras some where. I'll gather this all together and put it in a Google doc or something we can share and edit.

It would be good if you can get in touch with other TVM owners and see who would be interested in assisting the effort. Goal 1 would be for me to be able to visit a machine somewhere. I live in Kansas City, MO and would be willing to drive a couple hours to do this. Barring that, we can do things remotely.

One other note: Depending on how serious folks are about a bounty, if you can gather enough funds to buy me a machine, I will absolutely get it working under OpenPnP. That's a pretty big bounty, but I figured it was worth mentioning :)

Jason
 

Offline ar__systems

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #578 on: October 17, 2016, 08:55:16 pm »
I have a fully functional driver. Did not have time to work on anything beyond that. Someone I shared it with created a github project.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2016, 10:20:51 pm by ar__systems »
 

Offline protoneer

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #579 on: October 17, 2016, 09:26:22 pm »
I have a fully functional driver. Did not have time to work on anything before that. Someone I shared it with created a github project.

https://github.com/TVM802
 

Offline vonnieda

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #580 on: October 17, 2016, 10:17:36 pm »
I have a fully functional driver. Did not have time to work on anything before that. Someone I shared it with created a github project.

I have a fully functional driver. Did not have time to work on anything before that. Someone I shared it with created a github project.

https://github.com/TVM802

There it is! :) I knew I had seen something. Are either of you using this at all currently?
 

Offline protoneer

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #581 on: October 17, 2016, 10:33:56 pm »
There it is! :) I knew I had seen something. Are either of you using this at all currently?

I tried it on my TVM802A but it did not respond at all....

The file below seems to contain the golden nuggets...
https://github.com/TVM802/TMV802-Protocol/blob/master/p1/hal-api.cpp
 

Offline tmf

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #582 on: October 18, 2016, 01:26:16 am »
Can someone post the .exe for windows 7 64 bit and I could try it also....

Richard.
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Offline protoneer

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #583 on: October 21, 2016, 08:20:25 am »
Hi all...

I started working on a API for the TVM802. Is there anybody with a TVM802B that has a bit of NodeJS skills and can help with testing?

Code : https://github.com/TVM802/TVM802-WEB-API

Currently it connects to the machine and toggles the beeper as a test. At this stage I just want to make sure the code works on a "TVM802B" as I have a "A" version.
 

Offline tmf

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #584 on: October 21, 2016, 11:52:58 pm »
Hi all...
I started working on a API for the TVM802. Is there anybody with a TVM802B that has a bit of NodeJS skills and can help with testing?
Code : https://github.com/TVM802/TVM802-WEB-API
Currently it connects to the machine and toggles the beeper as a test. At this stage I just want to make sure the code works on a "TVM802B" as I have a "A" version.

I should help, I have not done NodeJS before but I am a very quick learner and have lots of experience under the belt :-)

Keep up the efforts!

RichardS
Man of many hats :-)

 

Offline nisma

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #585 on: October 26, 2016, 02:33:55 pm »
Hi harry, I have seen you have problems with up looking camera.
Can you publish two images of the problematic part , one as is and the other
Without the red down looking lights. No additional black paper.
If you can use BMP or eventually png that is better as jpeg.
Having this two images I can make a video filter that blacks out the
Green color. Eventually its necessary to disable red down light with
Reed or microswitch , I can say it after seeing image.
 

Offline tmf

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #586 on: October 26, 2016, 02:39:29 pm »
Hi harry, I have seen you have problems with up looking camera.
Can you publish two images of the problematic part , one as is and the other
Without the red down looking lights. No additional black paper.
If you can use BMP or eventually png that is better as jpeg.
Having this two images I can make a video filter that blacks out the
Green color. Eventually its necessary to disable red down light with
Reed or microswitch , I can say it after seeing image.

Should they have a filter that only shows the bright white parts anyway?? This is an idea.

RichardS
Man of many hats :-)

 

Offline tmf

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #587 on: October 27, 2016, 03:56:39 am »
I placed about 1000 small SMT leds today and used vision on them all, these are very tiny leds, so vision is best, I used quick vision and about 5 times out of 1000 the image it took was mis-read and the led place either totally rotated 180, or off by 10mm, you could see the camera misread the image and then the placement so astray.... :-( anyone know tips to perfect the camera?

RichardS
Man of many hats :-)

 

Offline tmf

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #588 on: October 27, 2016, 02:58:03 pm »
Question:

Down camera, should part #'s on back of IC be in focus?

or Should the pads be better focused?

Just trying to tweak the cameras for better operation.

RichardS
Man of many hats :-)

 

Offline ar__systems

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #589 on: October 27, 2016, 03:54:13 pm »
pads should be in focus
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #590 on: October 27, 2016, 05:07:51 pm »
Question:

Down camera, should part #'s on back of IC be in focus?

or Should the pads be better focused?

Just trying to tweak the cameras for better operation.

RichardS
Down-facing  camera is usually only fo rfiducials, so should focus on the PCB surface
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Offline tmf

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #591 on: October 27, 2016, 06:22:16 pm »
right duh! :palm: (as dave would do)
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Offline vonnieda

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #592 on: November 01, 2016, 10:16:57 pm »
Hi folks, just wanted to let you know that we've begun an effort to support the TVM802A/B and TVM920 machines in OpenPnP. If that is a topic that interests you, please come join the discussion at https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/openpnp/735aZn-GFRw.

Thanks,
Jason
 

Offline nisma

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #593 on: November 04, 2016, 11:32:24 am »
Hi, i want know the max depht of Z and the distance between the center of the ball bearings of the Z cam wheel.
It is possible to get this info from some owner of 802 ?
Thanks
 

Offline tmf

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #594 on: November 04, 2016, 12:24:02 pm »
35mm between and Z max of 20mm which the software has limited to 16mm right now. And the diameter of the rollers that push down are 17mm, I suspect these measurements do not need to be overly exact....

Hi, i want know the max depht of Z and the distance between the center of the ball bearings of the Z cam wheel.
It is possible to get this info from some owner of 802 ?
Thanks
Man of many hats :-)

 
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Offline nisma

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #595 on: November 04, 2016, 12:52:41 pm »
35mm between and Z max of 20mm which the software has limited to 16mm right now. And the diameter of the rollers that push down are 17mm, I suspect these measurements do not need to be overly exact....

Hi, i want know the max depht of Z and the distance between the center of the ball bearings of the Z cam wheel.
It is possible to get this info from some owner of 802 ?
Thanks
The distance should be precise, ideally with caliper. It can be measured with rollers and then removing the roller diameter.   For now i assume radius of 17.5mm .
 

Offline tmf

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #596 on: November 04, 2016, 01:02:43 pm »
I have calipers, measured the DIAMETER again and its 16.99mm

center to center is 51.3-16.99 = 34.31

35mm between and Z max of 20mm which the software has limited to 16mm right now. And the diameter of the rollers that push down are 17mm, I suspect these measurements do not need to be overly exact....

Hi, i want know the max depht of Z and the distance between the center of the ball bearings of the Z cam wheel.
It is possible to get this info from some owner of 802 ?
Thanks
The distance should be precise, ideally with caliper. It can be measured with rollers and then removing the roller diameter.   For now i assume radius of 17.5mm .
Man of many hats :-)

 

Offline glenenglish

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #597 on: November 06, 2016, 09:23:54 am »
Rather than hacking/rev eng the existing board/ controller, how about just putting some new code in it ?

That's what i am going to do with the TVM920..... the hardware is not sophisticated, nor has many layers than STM32 pinouts (TVM92) cannot be figured out in a few minutes...

I am not going to even bother with trying to use the existing code in the microcontroller PCB.
IMO you just inherit all the issues.... but I have a very bold POV.

I have no idea what controller is in a 802B....

glen
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #598 on: November 06, 2016, 10:16:33 am »
That's probably the best approach as you could spend a lot if time reversing the protocol to find it has inherent priblems. Also you don't know if it will change in future versions. The functionality is simple enough that writing from scratch may be quicker than reversing anyway.
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Offline vonnieda

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #599 on: November 06, 2016, 04:41:43 pm »
Reverse engineering the stock controller has the primary benefit of remaining compatible with the stock software should other options not work out, or if you just want to do some testing. For OpenPnP, I strongly support a reverse engineered solution so that OpenPnP can work out of the box with the TVM machines. It will give people the option of trying a new software stack without irreversibly modifying their machines. On top of that, the work is already quite far along.
 


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