Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B

[harry4516]

after measuring the ficudials the board is synchronized with the upper camera. This works quite well.
If all components are off then I would play with the Camera2 - Nozzle1-Offset settings which should move all components.
...

tested it today, and it works.
I adjusted the Camera2 - Nozzle1-Offset values and now it is perfekt.

Today I placed a lot of SOD-523 diodes. This is a really small case, but Nozzle Nr.1 (Juki 503) picks it up well.

Placement was not so good, so I activated the cam "accurate mode", now it is fine. Of course, that takes a long time, but I'm not in a hurry.

Harry

[ServoKit]

First video of the automated PCB loading and unloading:

https://youtu.be/mseT093Ib80

Write-up follows.

Regards, Axel

[Spikee]

anyone ever try something like a bga package ?

The ones I use are generally low ball count and I place them by hand now. (actually find it easier than qfn as I think it aligns better if it is pretty close to position).

A part like:
http://www2.st.com/content/ccc/resource/technical/document/datasheet/group0/cb/91/ba/7d/0b/c1/4d/f6/CD00147128/files/CD00147128.pdf/jcr:content/translations/en.CD00147128.pdf

WLCP (CS) package

All my boards are prototype runs and it is too much of an hassle and expense to outsource that.
Pretty much all 0402 / 0603 parts and a few ic's. 0.5 mm pitch qfn is normal.

I actually have the liteplacer and it can work quite well. Setup for new parts is super easy. But it needs quite a lot more refinement to be really useful for me.

The neoden 4 looks quite good but when you get all the goodies you want it is a 10k pricetag ex tax. Which is doable ... but it is a Chinese machine.
If it was running open pnp or something like than it would be another story...

So even if this 3k machine just does my qfn's and 0402 somewhat reliable I would be happy, but is that the case?

edit:
found many video's including 0402 placement without vision:
http://www.soku.com/search_video/q_TVM802A?f=1&kb=040200000000000__TVM802A&_rp=1460819713986hCZIRb&_rp=1460819713986hCZIRb

looks good

[rwb]

Great Job Axel!

Can't wait to see how this progresses 

[ServoKit]

Thanks! Printing is next.

Regards, Axel

[uncle_bob]

anyone ever try something like a bga package ?

The ones I use are generally low ball count and I place them by hand now. (actually find it easier than qfn as I think it aligns better if it is pretty close to position).

A part like:
http://www2.st.com/content/ccc/resource/technical/document/datasheet/group0/cb/91/ba/7d/0b/c1/4d/f6/CD00147128/files/CD00147128.pdf/jcr:content/translations/en.CD00147128.pdf

WLCP (CS) package

All my boards are prototype runs and it is too much of an hassle and expense to outsource that.
Pretty much all 0402 / 0603 parts and a few ic's. 0.5 mm pitch qfn is normal.

I actually have the liteplacer and it can work quite well. Setup for new parts is super easy. But it needs quite a lot more refinement to be really useful for me.

The neoden 4 looks quite good but when you get all the goodies you want it is a 10k pricetag ex tax. Which is doable ... but it is a Chinese machine.
If it was running open pnp or something like than it would be another story...

So even if this 3k machine just does my qfn's and 0402 somewhat reliable I would be happy, but is that the case?

edit:
found many video's including 0402 placement without vision:
http://www.soku.com/search_video/q_TVM802A?f=1&kb=040200000000000__TVM802A&_rp=1460819713986hCZIRb&_rp=1460819713986hCZIRb

looks good

Hi

So far the consensus seems to be that, with enough fine tuning, the machine will do 0.5 mm pitch parts. The only thing that the $250K machines could do on a BGA is optically pick up the balls on the bottom of the part. That's not to say that they all *do* pick them up that way. They also are a bit smoother in doing motion. The motion stuff applies equally to a QFN and a BGA so that sort of drops out in this case.

From what I can see here, we may have an "open source" TVM802 driver at some point. That might allow you to enhance all sorts of things ....

Bob

[Spikee]

what i did with my liteplacer was to let the machine pick it up at the center (via vision) and just let it place according to the pnp location.
That works fine even for 2x2mm dc/dc converters and so. For bga angle and center correction (like you do with a qfn or so) is more than enough.

Since in my opnion some qfn's are more difficult than bga's. The ones I use are 0.5mm pitch anyway.

Any opinions regarding getting the larger B version?
It is about 900 euro more but also has 20 more feeders or so.

[uncle_bob]

what i did with my liteplacer was to let the machine pick it up at the center (via vision) and just let it place according to the pnp location.
That works fine even for 2x2mm dc/dc converters and so. For bga angle and center correction (like you do with a qfn or so) is more than enough.

Since in my opnion some qfn's are more difficult than bga's. The ones I use are 0.5mm pitch anyway.

Any opinions regarding getting the larger B version?
It is about 900 euro more but also has 20 more feeders or so.

Hi

If you *need* the extra feeders, it's a no-brainer. If your usage pattern is such that you do a switch out job once a month on the A model ...I'd say that's not a big need. Others would say it is. The board size difference between the two is not significant in terms of anything I would do on a machine like this. For the guy with a lot of 400 mm long boards .... it's a big deal.

It's not clear if both machines got a nozzle upgrade or if the A still is screw ins and only the B gets "Juki" nozzles.

Bob

[protoneer]

It's not clear if both machines got a nozzle upgrade or if the A still is screw ins and only the B gets "Juki" nozzles.

"A" model still comes with screw nozzles(Received mine a few weeks ago). Not that that is a problem, will upgrade them to Juki when I need replacement nozzles. (I bought plenty of spares before seeing the Juki upgrade option)

I do like the idea that the "B" model's camera is at the back.It opens up more space at the front for feeders and if the bottom camera is not used a lot it is just in the way.

Upgrading the bottom camera is a good idea but might not be compatible with the current software.

[protoneer]

I tried 0.4mm pitch and the results are pretty good!!!     

The MCU in the photo's is a NRF51XX 48-pin QFN with a 0.4mm pitch.

I did it a 40% speed and with the bottom camera set to accurate placement. 

Used a number 1 nozzle from the front stack of the machine.

[ServoKit]

The little pick and place engine that could!

Re. the camera, I think the SW talks to the cameras on the machine, see the serial numbers in the sys config panel. Replacing is likely not an option.

Regards, Axel

[ttsthermaltech]

From the pictures, the placement looks as good, if not better than the landing pads for the QFN. Maybe just the optics on the pictures, but looks really good!

Kudos.

I tried 0.4mm pitch and the results are pretty good!!!     

The MCU in the photo's is a NRF51XX 48-pin QFN with a 0.4mm pitch.

I did it a 40% speed and with the bottom camera set to accurate placement. 

Used a number 1 nozzle from the front stack of the machine.

[rwb]

Yea man really nice to see the machine accuratley placing 0.4mm pitch IC parts! That's really good for a machine in the 3k range!

If it only had 100 feeders 

[protoneer]

From the pictures, the placement looks as good, if not better than the landing pads for the QFN. Maybe just the optics on the pictures, but looks really good!

Yes, I am pretty pleased with it. I must admit that its getting to the stage where the rest of my tool chain is starting to lag. At work we have a really nice microscope that costs more than than a new TVM802B. For that price you can zoom in on the pads of a QFN at 1 feet(30cm). It also has auto-focus allowing you concentrate on the part.

Photos were taken with a $50 usb microscope

[ServoKit]

Detailed write-up of automatic PCB loading:

http://servokit.com/blog/2016/04/17/automated-pcb-handling-with-the-tvm802a-pick-and-place-machine-iii/

Regards, Axel

[uncle_bob]

Hi

The placement on all of the QFN's has looked quite good. Any time you zoom in on a PC board at that level, you begin to see the limits of the fabrication technique on the board. You also start to see the fab limits on the package it's self. If you put solder down, you'll see some limits on your stencils and maybe your printer.

The microscope is *not* the only part of the tool chain this stuff pushes. You are getting to "as good as it gets" for most fab shops at 0.4 mm. I hesitate to use the term "state of the art". There are finer pitch things out there. A lot of pretty capable groups are still challenged by 0.5 mm.

Bob

[ar__systems]

Any opinions regarding getting the larger B version?
It is about 900 euro more but also has 20 more feeders or so.

They have differences other than just the number of feeders. In other words you can't just buy A and upgrade it into B. They are substantially different in the construction.

First of all, B has a slot in the plate for spent tapes on the Left feeder block to be routed. Camera location is different. A has a built-in tray for chips. They have different nozzles.

[uncle_bob]

Any opinions regarding getting the larger B version?
It is about 900 euro more but also has 20 more feeders or so.

They have differences other than just the number of feeders. In other words you can't just buy A and upgrade it into B. They are substantially different in the construction.

First of all, B has a slot in the plate for spent tapes on the Left feeder block to be routed. Camera location is different. A has a built-in tray for chips. They have different nozzles.

Hi

Is there any reason to believe that one machine is more accurate than the other one? This is in the context of doing tight pitch parts using the camera.

Bob

[Spikee]

TVM802A is 2.3k euro on taoboa. I wonder how much it would take for a agent to ship it here.
That would save you a few hundred bucks.

[uncle_bob]

TVM802A is 2.3k euro on taoboa. I wonder how much it would take for a agent to ship it here.
That would save you a few hundred bucks.

Hi

No matter how cheap the shipping, there still is likely to be a tax / customs man getting his charges on the deal

I suspect that if a dozen or two people could all agree on a delivery point and organize a group order ... the machines would be amazingly affordable. It's not going to work very well for a US to Europe sort of group. It might well work for a group of people within a 4 hour drive of some central point in the EU.  The hardest part is always organizing the whole thing and tending to all the details.

Bob

[Spikee]

For company use you pay the tax but get it back

[uncle_bob]

Hi

Ok so I'm wandering around the internet and up pops the fact that there are *four* flavors of the TVM802:

TVM802A
TVM802B
TVM802C
TVM802D

It is *abundantly* unclear to me exactly what the difference between the A and the C ( or the B and the D) actually is. This is compounded a bit by the fact the info on the C shows pictures labeled "TVM802A".  Likewise, the TVM802D pictures show a machine labeled "TVM802B".  Does anybody have an idea of what's going on ?

Bob

[ar__systems]

Is there any reason to believe that one machine is more accurate than the other one? This is in the context of doing tight pitch parts using the camera.

I don't think so. They should be about the same.

[harry4516]

someone tried 0402 parts already ?
I placed a lot of SOD523 diodes today and it worked very well. SOD523 are not much bigger than 0402, I will give it a try in my next board.

Regarding A,B,C,D type: I have got all the leaflets from the manufacturer and they show only A and B machines.

Harry

[uncle_bob]

someone tried 0402 parts already ?
I placed a lot of SOD523 diodes today and it worked very well. SOD523 are not much bigger than 0402, I will give it a try in my next board.

Regarding A,B,C,D type: I have got all the leaflets from the manufacturer and they show only A and B machines.

Harry

Hi

I just noticed the C and D go up today. The pictures don't show C and D markings on the units. I'd bet they are something new. Pricing on each of them is just slightly higher than the A or B.

Here's a link to a search that turns up a bunch of TVM802C's.

http://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?catId=0&initiative_id=SB_20160417172144&SearchText=TVM802C

Everything I see in those offers is a TVM802A. I may have missed something subtle. I'd bet the "real" copy for the other machines is still in the works. It's pretty odd that they have them up for sale, but no information on what they are.

Yes, for about $3,300 (plus shipping) I *could* find out the answer ... sorry ... not doing that just to find out.

=====

Edit 4/10/2016:

Well I decided to take the lower cost option and contacted the company. Their reply:

The C and D are the same as the A and B. The name change is simply a way for them to differentiate the product sold directly by them from the product sold by dealers.

... not very exciting. I was hoping for a raft of new features 


Bob