Author Topic: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'  (Read 181869 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline iMo

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4798
  • Country: pm
  • It's important to try new things..
Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #850 on: April 06, 2019, 05:44:00 pm »
The graphics in the report shows the events with the trim cutout switches, imho..
First they cutout the trim with the switch, MCAS trimmed once but without actual movement of the trim, then was the trim cutout switch engaged again "ON" (no trim cutout), the MCAS automatic took over the jackscrew, then came to MCAS trimming nose down for 4.5 seconds [why not for 9secs??] (and the trim jackscrew remained in that position till the end), they tried hard with the column for ~6secs and it helped, then again for 6secs and it helped but less, and 3secs later the 6secs long steep dive followed.. It took 24secs from the start of last MCAS trimming till the end..
« Last Edit: April 06, 2019, 06:39:36 pm by imo »
 

Offline ogden

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3731
  • Country: lv
Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #851 on: April 06, 2019, 07:20:21 pm »
then came to MCAS trimming nose down for 4.5 seconds [why not for 9secs??]

Answer is in AOA-L (deg) graph. - After 4.5 secs of final trim that resulted in unrecoverable by pilots 45 degree dive, faulty left AOA indicator reached zero degrees and MCAS decided "everything about flying is good now"... :/

[edit] I think, many from Boeing and FAA shall go straight to jail. Airspeed tubes indicates overspeed, left AOA indicates maximum possible value 75 degrees which together more or less means wings are gone, yet MCAS do not care to abort or look into another AOA sensor. It decides to nose-dive while ground proximity radar is creaming, with one and only input from senor which unfortunately is faulty  :palm:
« Last Edit: April 06, 2019, 07:36:02 pm by ogden »
 

Offline iMo

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4798
  • Country: pm
  • It's important to try new things..
Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #852 on: April 06, 2019, 08:00:29 pm »
Ok, I see the AOA_L started to "work" again during the last MCAS.

From what I see there it also means the "Manual Electric trim" works when the switches are in cutout position. They did 3x manual electric trim and it worked fine while the MCAS had no access to the jackscrew. I've seen somewhere the cutout position means the jackscrew's servo is cut off of electricity.

Btw, when looking at AOA_L and AOA_R waveforms, the left AOA got jammed in top position after the right AOA did a "larger drift up", and started to work again after the right AOA did "a larger drift down". Looks like a sw bug..

« Last Edit: April 06, 2019, 08:14:38 pm by imo »
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • !
  • Posts: 2699
  • Country: tr
Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #853 on: April 06, 2019, 08:32:29 pm »
From what I see there it also means the "Manual Electric trim" works when the switches are in cutout position.

The TB19 says clearly that electric trim does NOT work after cutout:

The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.
 

Offline iMo

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4798
  • Country: pm
  • It's important to try new things..
Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #854 on: April 06, 2019, 08:48:52 pm »
OK, then they switched into "no cutout" position sometime before the last two manual electric trims. And few seconds afterwards the last MCAS fired (still with AOA_L jammed in top). What is the period MCAS checks whether to trim or not?
« Last Edit: April 06, 2019, 08:51:30 pm by imo »
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • !
  • Posts: 2699
  • Country: tr
Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #855 on: April 06, 2019, 09:42:51 pm »
Quote
“In the event of erroneous AoA data, the pitch trim system can trim the stabilizer nose down in increments lasting up to 10 seconds,” says Boeing. “The nose down stabilizer trim movement can be stopped and reversed with the use of the electric stabilizer trim switches but may restart 5 seconds after the electric stabilizer trim switches are released.”

https://airwaysmag.com/industry/lion-air-crash-boeing-warns-737-max-operators-of-potential-trim-fault/
The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.
 

Offline iMo

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4798
  • Country: pm
  • It's important to try new things..
Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #856 on: April 07, 2019, 06:05:39 am »
Thus another line for their MCAS sw specification -> When the air speed is higher than 300knots and the altitude is lower than 12000feets do not allow MCAS trim..
« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 06:13:40 am by imo »
 

Offline Brumby

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 12300
  • Country: au
Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #857 on: April 07, 2019, 07:28:11 am »
Thus another line for their MCAS sw specification -> When the air speed is higher than 300knots and the altitude is lower than 12000feets do not allow MCAS trim..

I think that is an artificial constraint to limit the impact of the "problem".  I'd prefer the problem gets identified, thoroughly characterised and fixed properly.

Besides, it seems to me that a properly functioning MCAS is more valuable at lower altitudes, so excluding those would be a move in the wrong direction.
 

Offline ogden

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3731
  • Country: lv
Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #858 on: April 07, 2019, 08:38:57 am »
The nose down stabilizer trim movement can be stopped and reversed with the use of the electric stabilizer trim switches

It worked exactly as described. While "05:40:27, the Captain advised the First-Officer to trim up with him", MCAS was already trimming for around 6 seconds. It immediately stopped and manual electric trim-up followed w/o delay.

Thus another line for their MCAS sw specification -> When the air speed is higher than 300knots and the altitude is lower than 12000feets do not allow MCAS trim..

According to flight recorder data first MCAS trimdown (at 05:40:00) was ~250 kts and ASL less than 8000 feets. AGL was around 1500 or so - way too close to ground for diving. Pilots definitely got huge inflow of adrenaline.
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • !
  • Posts: 2699
  • Country: tr
Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #859 on: April 07, 2019, 09:42:57 am »
The nose down stabilizer trim movement can be stopped and reversed with the use of the electric stabilizer trim switches
It worked exactly as described. While "05:40:27, the Captain advised the First-Officer to trim up with him", MCAS was already trimming for around 6 seconds. It immediately stopped and manual electric trim-up followed w/o delay.

Should have kept trimming nose up longer, to 4.6 units, then flip the cutout switch, and from then on manually for the remainder of the flight.
The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.
 
The following users thanked this post: Algu607

Offline tooki

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11600
  • Country: ch
Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #860 on: April 07, 2019, 11:04:18 am »
From what I see there it also means the "Manual Electric trim" works when the switches are in cutout position. They did 3x manual electric trim and it worked fine while the MCAS had no access to the jackscrew. I've seen somewhere the cutout position means the jackscrew's servo is cut off of electricity.
Watch Mentour Pilot's video about runaway stab trim. It's very clear: the cutout switches disable ALL electric control of the stabilizer trim, including the buttons on the yoke.

Edit: If the following post is correct, and I'm understanding it correctly, then Mentour is wrong, and the cutout switches in the MAX don't disable MCAS. This would be a damning revelation, since it'd mean that the only way to kill MCAS would be to turn around and pull the fuses to the stab trim motors.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 12:12:38 pm by tooki »
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • !
  • Posts: 2699
  • Country: tr
Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #861 on: April 07, 2019, 12:26:23 pm »
I feel theres a lot of assumption here, the 737 Max is a plane that might have modifications over previous 737, and unless someone has wiring schematics these are just assumptions.

The pdf in msg #874 is for the 737 MAX: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/lion-air-crash-jakarta-boeing-737-had-prior-instrument-error/msg2325078/#msg2325078 and says it quite clearly:

Quote
The nose down stabilizer trim movement can be stopped and reversed with the use of the electric stabilizer trim switches but may restart 5 seconds after the electric stabilizer trim switches are released. Repetitive cycles of uncommanded nose down stabilizer continue to occur unless the stabilizer trim system is deactivated through use of both STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches in accordance with the existing procedures in the Runaway Stabilizer NNC.

Unless the .pdf is wrong...
« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 12:34:08 pm by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.
 
The following users thanked this post: tooki

Offline ogden

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3731
  • Country: lv
Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #862 on: April 07, 2019, 12:42:31 pm »
I feel theres a lot of assumption here, the 737 Max is a plane that might have modifications over previous 737, and unless someone has wiring schematics these are just assumptions.

Seems like cutout switches operated properly, as described. Following events show that cutout affected both manual electric trim and MCAS as well. Manual electric trim inputs at 05:43:11 means they disengaged cutout switches on purpose - for manual electric trim because were unable to trim using mechanical wheel.

Quote
At 05:40:35, the First-Officer called out “stab trim cut-out” two times. Captain agreed and FirstOfficer confirmed stab trim cut-out.

At 05:40:41, approximately five seconds after the end of the ANU stabilizer motion, a third instance of AND automatic trim command occurred without any corresponding motion of the stabilizer, which is consistent with the stabilizer trim cutout switches were in the ‘’cutout’’ position

At 05:41:46, the Captain asked the First-Officer if the trim is functional. The First-Officer has replied that the trim was not working and asked if he could try it manually. The Captain told him to try.

At 05:41:54, the First-Officer replied that it is not working

At 05:43:11, about 32 seconds before the end of the recording, at approximately 13,4002 ft, two momentary manual electric trim inputs are recorded in the ANU direction. The stabilizer moved in the ANU direction from 2.1 units to 2.3 units.

At 05:43:20, approximately five seconds after the last manual electric trim input, an AND automatic trim command occurred and the stabilizer moved in the AND direction from 2.3 to 1.0 unit in approximately 5 seconds.

Obvious question: why just short manual electric trim inputs if they have to pull-up so hard? They did not feel it working? - Flight recorder shows that manual trim helped, they just had to trim much longer, that would save all those lives lost. Why there is no discussion in audio recording about disengaging cutout switches before last two manual trims and last, critical MCAS trim?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 12:44:27 pm by ogden »
 
The following users thanked this post: tooki

Offline dzseki

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 509
  • Country: hu
Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #863 on: April 07, 2019, 07:30:45 pm »
After the accident it is always easy to say what should have been done. But it was a hot situation, I am not sure how many could keep a cold head at that. Perhaps they were not the world's best pilots, but the report highlighted that they were trying to do the right thing at least, and don't forget that the plane was handicapped... I am also sure they did not want to die.
MCAS as implemented was a disaster waiting to happen if the last crew would have landed safely, Boeing probably wouldn't give a sh!t about it and MAXes would still fly around, as they were safe.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 08:05:23 pm by dzseki »
HP 1720A scope with HP 1120A probe, EMG 12563 pulse generator, EMG 1257 function generator, EMG 1172B signal generator, MEV TR-1660C bench multimeter
 

Offline KL27x

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4108
  • Country: us
Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #864 on: April 07, 2019, 08:03:45 pm »
Quote
Obvious question: why just short manual electric trim inputs if they have to pull-up so hard? They did not feel it working? - Flight recorder shows that manual trim helped, they just had to trim much longer, that would save all those lives lost. Why there is no discussion in audio recording about disengaging cutout switches before last two manual trims and last, critical MCAS trim?
Lots of reasons that I can speculate.
1. A stall at this altitude would result in a complete loss. Trimming up too high/fast while also pulling back on the column can be dangerous. How dangerous is the MAX with no MCAS? No one has really discussed this.
2. Familiarity. Pilots are probably not used to making huge manual trim adjustments. And on a plane this size, w/e changes you do might take awhile until you get the result. By the time you are certain of the result, you might have gone too far.
3. The first officer did the trim adjustment. The captain was flying. The first officer couldn't know how hard the captain was still pulling on the yoke unless he communicated it. And the captain didn't specify how much trim to give. He did not ask for more after the FO gave the trim. Maybe they were preoccupied and not able to communicate fast enough.
4. Training: In their training they might not have encountered such large MCAS trim adjustments. In MP's simulation, the trim wheel just moves a tiny bit every few seconds.  Maybe these pilots undertook similar training. And what got ingrained was what they did under stress.

Maybe other pilots can tell us if these trim number have any meaning to 737 pilots and/or if/where they are displayed. Or do pilots generally make relative changes to the trim without regard to the actual value. Nowhere in the voice recordings do we know of that either pilot mention the absolute trim value (2.1, 2.3 4.5) or quantify trim adjustments in terms of seconds or other units. And nowhere did I read they mention "AOA" or "MCAS" failure/malfunction.

5. Time dilation. In the moment, that ~3 seconds of manual trim might have felt like 10 seconds. And it may have been difficult to read pitch and speed and trim value while the ground was so close.  When too much up trim can result in the plane crashing, and you've never had to correct for such a massive trim down before, it might be hard to do. Like a surgeon does fine cuts for 30 years, but in case of some specific emergency he essentially has to whack his patient with a hatchet. FO even asks permission before attempting manual trim. So it's probably a huge part of his job training to "not actively do anything" that can crash the plane, and that any input he usually makes is typically more gradual/careful in comparison to the hatchet swing this situation calls for... and this situation developed very rapidly/suddenly without much time to really take in the entire gravity. The pilots were probably still relying on thousands of repetitions and habit of their many hours of normal flight, to some extent. As it really is to be expected, that a modern passenger plane can be routinely flown without too much critical thinking on the end of the pilot under 99.99% of circumstances, and under more fortunate conditions there would be more time for rationalization and communication/discussion before performing a more drastic/extreme human action.

Also, the voice transcript makes it sound like the captain did not try to help in the manual trim operation. Maybe he was pulling on the column so hard he couldn't let go with one hand to help, in the way that MP does in his simulation. OTOH, he does call for the FO to help with the manual electric trim button, so maybe his button wasn't working or he felt like it wasn't working. The latter suggests there might be an undisclosed-as-of-yet software/circuitry bug that is perhaps associated with AOA sensor failure.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 12:17:20 am by KL27x »
 

Offline floobydust

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7038
  • Country: ca
Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #865 on: April 07, 2019, 08:27:14 pm »
Boeing farmed out the MCAS software and hardware development to Rockwell Collins.

Safety-critical software sub-contracted out is a known terrible idea. The S/W requirements have to be so well defined and documented to toss over the fence to the coders. They usually know nothing about the system they are working on, or have a proper system simulator for fully testing the code.

The end result is low quality software. Each can assume the other did the testing, which does not happen beyond functionality checks with no regard for undefined scenarios.

"...Collins issued a software update to 737 Max flight-control systems on Jan. 25, designed to change MCAS functionality to improve its safety “when flap position failures are detected". 
Another basic fault missed in the original software?
There was a second Jan. 25 MCAS bug fix issued, but no word on what it covered or whose planes have that update.

The lawsuits will be interesting, joint liability will cost both Boeing and UT.
It looks like if you were involved with MCAS or the AoA sensors, you are liable as a sub-contractor or even parts suppliers are worried.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/boeings-737-max-design-contains-fingerprints-of-hundreds-of-suppliers/2019/04/05/44f22024-57ab-11e9-8ef3-fbd41a2ce4d5_story.html
 

Offline Kjelt

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6460
  • Country: nl
Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #866 on: April 07, 2019, 08:37:54 pm »
Boeing farmed out the MCAS software and hardware development to Rockwell Collins.

Safety-critical software sub-contracted out is a known terrible idea. The S/W requirements have to be so well defined and documented to toss over the fence to the coders. They usually know nothing about the system they are working on, or have a proper system simulator for fully testing the code.

The end result is low quality software.
If the requirements are not crystal clear and unambiguously formulated you get GIGO.
Testing is part if the contract. As we already know by now Boeing had no clue what the input of the MCAS system in ALL possible cases/scenarios was, so the requirements were incomplete, can't blame the SW team for something they did not know.
 

Offline KL27x

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4108
  • Country: us
Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #867 on: April 07, 2019, 08:48:12 pm »
^I agree.
Quote
Boeing farmed out the MCAS software and hardware development to Rockwell Collins
In addition is seems strange that a billion dollar airplane manufacturer has to subcontract such a simple software problem on their own plane and FCC. Did Boeing really fire every engineer who could do such things? Or did they subcontract the entire system (perhaps to Rockwell Collins) from the get go, decades ago?

As for the manual trim locking up, and "the same (adequate) system used on 737 for 50 years?" The MAX engines give the plane way more nose up force, putting increased forces on the stabilizer/elevators, for one thing. MCAS for another. Boeing exec states plane crashes are usually due to multiple problems, and in this case Boeing may be holding a bag containing several of these problems.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 02:27:26 am by KL27x »
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • !
  • Posts: 2699
  • Country: tr
Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #868 on: April 07, 2019, 08:58:02 pm »
MCAS = Multiple Crashes Assured System
MCAS = May Crash Aircraft Sometimes
« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 09:02:08 pm by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.
 
The following users thanked this post: Yansi

Offline BBBbbb

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 289
  • Country: nl
Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #869 on: April 08, 2019, 01:58:20 pm »
Somewhat related, and a real SW screw up:
https://twitter.com/ChinaAvReview/status/1114802018919411712
 

Offline iMo

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4798
  • Country: pm
  • It's important to try new things..
Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #870 on: April 08, 2019, 03:55:38 pm »
4. Training: In their training they might not have encountered such large MCAS trim adjustments. In MP's simulation, the trim wheel just moves a tiny bit every few seconds.  Maybe these pilots undertook similar training. And what got ingrained was what they did under stress.
Frankly, to see a mechanical wheel in a cabin of a high tech plane in 2019 is something weird. I do understand it is a simple and proven technology, and there are many mission critical systems which still works in a mechanical manner, but messing with the wheel under +/-2G is something highly questionable. The guy in the video had problems with the wheel even happily sitting in a simulator without any stress in life or death situation. Imagine 1Gp-p in all three axis with ~-2-3secs periods for 5minutes and finally -1 to -2G in last seconds.. See the graphs in the report.

I think the jackscrew itself (not counting the MCAS) is a single point of trouble. I doubt there is an another system in modern airplane which is not backuped with something automatic.
Imagine the screw breaks (as it happened due to missing lubrication in past), or the servo get jammed in an fatal position, etc. There should be a hydraulic, or pneumatic system (pyro generator?) which sets the stabilizer into a neutral position upon single button push..
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 03:58:23 pm by imo »
 

Offline tooki

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11600
  • Country: ch
Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #871 on: April 08, 2019, 06:04:31 pm »
Well, technically, it wasn’t the screw that failed on Alaska 261, it was the nut that rode up and down the screw.

Indeed it’s a single point of failure, but then again, screws are fundamentally reliable things. Any automatic backup is likely to be less reliable than the screw and nut.

It might require careful gearing to maintain sync, but I suppose one could have two redundant jackscrews, each of which is sufficient to support the horizontal stabilizer on its own.
 

Offline floobydust

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7038
  • Country: ca
Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #872 on: April 08, 2019, 06:51:58 pm »
Quote
Boeing farmed out the MCAS software and hardware development to Rockwell Collins
In addition is seems strange that a billion dollar airplane manufacturer has to subcontract such a simple software problem on their own plane and FCC. Did Boeing really fire every engineer who could do such things? Or did they subcontract the entire system (perhaps to Rockwell Collins) from the get go, decades ago?

"Boeing ...changing culture from quality of product to bottom-line-only, and from engineering-focused family to an executive-and-worker style hierarchy. Boeing stopped being a company where decisions were made based on the best engineering opinion available, and started resembling more like an MBA-management style of company, or a GE Jack Welch style of management company."

Outsourcing became the new mantra. Huge problem is that outsourcing manufacturing is different than engineering.
You can't treat knowledge-workers, skilled labour as if they are parts. Outsourcing safety-critical software and hardware is different than outsourcing nuts and bolts, rivets.

I can see Boeing's engineering moving (necessarily) at a turtle's pace, but it seems to have been moving at a dinosaur's pace, compared to competitor Airbus.
Instead of cleaning up the in-house processes 'oiling the machine', getting barriers to engineering out of the way, they just farmed out development.
This is a popular management fad for many years now. I've never seen it work.
 
The following users thanked this post: MT

Offline djacobow

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1154
  • Country: us
  • takin' it apart since the 70's
Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #873 on: April 08, 2019, 07:07:58 pm »
Quote
Boeing farmed out the MCAS software and hardware development to Rockwell Collins
In addition is seems strange that a billion dollar airplane manufacturer has to subcontract such a simple software problem on their own plane and FCC. Did Boeing really fire every engineer who could do such things? Or did they subcontract the entire system (perhaps to Rockwell Collins) from the get go, decades ago?

"Boeing ...changing culture from quality of product to bottom-line-only, and from engineering-focused family to an executive-and-worker style hierarchy. Boeing stopped being a company where decisions were made based on the best engineering opinion available, and started resembling more like an MBA-management style of company, or a GE Jack Welch style of management company."

Outsourcing became the new mantra. Huge problem is that outsourcing manufacturing is different than engineering.
You can't treat knowledge-workers, skilled labour as if they are parts. Outsourcing safety-critical software and hardware is different than outsourcing nuts and bolts, rivets.

I can see Boeing's engineering moving (necessarily) at a turtle's pace, but it seems to have been moving at a dinosaur's pace, compared to competitor Airbus.
Instead of cleaning up the in-house processes 'oiling the machine', getting barriers to engineering out of the way, they just farmed out development.
This is a popular management fad for many years now. I've never seen it work.

To be fair, it's not like Rockwell Collins doesn't have a solid reputation and history developing avionics for airliners. It actually seems to me rather reasonable that an aircraft manufacturer would buy from a company that specializes in avionics. Now, folks are right that a system like MCAS, designed to protect the airplane, is probably harder/more risky to farm out than, say, nav equipment, which has pretty much nothing to do with the airframe.

Does Airbus not farm out work to subcontractors?
 

Offline KL27x

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4108
  • Country: us
Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #874 on: April 08, 2019, 07:27:53 pm »
Quote
I think the jackscrew itself (not counting the MCAS) is a single point of trouble. I doubt there is an another system in modern airplane which is not backuped with something automatic.
Imagine the screw breaks (as it happened due to missing lubrication in past), or the servo get jammed in an fatal position, etc. There should be a hydraulic, or pneumatic system (pyro generator?) which sets the stabilizer into a neutral position upon single button push..

I don't see how a hydraulic or pneumatic system would be able to move the stabilizer with the jackscrew still linked to the stabilizer. There would need to be an explosive bolt linkage or something. The problem is MCAS uses the stabilizer in a way where a malfunction can put it in an extraordinarily unusual position before the pilots might be able to react, whether that's due to insidious onset or due to protocol that is too slow for the situation or whether it's just unreasonable to expect a human pilot to be ready to decisively react to runaway trim within a few seconds, at all times. The reason the stabilizer is moved with a jackscrew rather than hydraulics, to begin with, is that under ordinary conditions, you want the stabilizer to stay where it was in case of any failure. If it were moved by hydraulics, then a leak of the hydraulic fluid would leave the stabilizer flopping in the breeze, and the elevators, say they're on an isolated hydraulic system, would have no effect. Move the elevator up, and the entire stabilizer would just flop down and vice versa.

Quote
It might require careful gearing to maintain sync, but I suppose one could have two redundant jackscrews, each of which is sufficient to support the horizontal stabilizer on its own.
If you had two jackscrews working in parallel, you'd have two points of failure. If one screw stuffed, then it could jam and prevent the other from working. And the forces would be even higher trying to manually trim the thing. But... explosive bolts? :)

Quote
Indeed it’s a single point of failure, but then again, screws are fundamentally reliable things. Any automatic backup is likely to be less reliable than the screw and nut.
+1. There have been several warplanes that have returned home using the stabilizer to control the plane after the hydraulics/elevators failed.

I kinda doubt any plane would have a backup to the jackscrew, anymore than they have a backup if the wings fall off. The fact there's a backup (manual trim wheel) to the motors/electrical turning the jackscrew is great that it's there, at all. But apparently the manual trim might not even work under a high stabilizer loading, which an unusually high stabilizer load is what you get with the the new engine placement plus the abnormal MCAS response plus pilots not wanting the plane to crash.

Others have inquired, and I'm also curious about it, whether under such a high load if it's possible the motors won't even move the stabilizer. The report suggests that the pilots pressed the trim up button for 3 seconds at one point... but it only moved the stabilizer by 0.2 degrees. Math says 3 seconds should move it roughly 0.7 degrees! Maybe something was slipping, whether a belt/pulley or an actual clutch. Going back a few posts, this is another potential reason the pilots made only a small correction... because they realized the trim wasn't moving and something was slipping. And they were just smoking a belt/pulley or whatnot. In the original Jakarta crash a similar event was recorded. The last correction attempt before the crash was only a very small correction at the jackscrew. This might not have been due to switching pilots prior to this. Perhaps by this point, the belt that had already corrected this unusual condition 20 times had already started to fail, heating and stretching and smoking, having been pushed beyond its maximum expected load and duty cycle. So by the end, the motor is turning but the trim isn't moving, because the belt has become too loose and/or is melting at the surface. And now the jackscrew does what it's supposed to do. What it was designed to do. To stay put.

It's feasible that the pilots realized exactly what was happening, by the end, and that they knew exactly what had to be done. That their only hope was to temporarily reduce stabilizer load in order to trim the plane back up to stop losing altitude. But at the altitude they were at, they needed the speed of the motors to have any hope to trim the plane in time.... and hopefully not burn out the belt in the meantime, hence why they are not spamming the trim up button the entire time for naught. So when they finally attempted this, letting go of the yoke, MCAS decided to fire again at that moment just as they are pressing the up trim. Or maybe they were already too low/lost by the point they tried this. This would explain the severe downward angle at the end of each crash, in the last attempt to move the damn stabilizer. They might have realized they were stuck between a slow but sure death and a fast and nearly certain one with at least a sparkle of hope.

The trim wheel, itself, would most likely have a separate belt and pulley directly to the jackscrew. Then the motor has its own shorter belt and pulley. The manual method might be too slow, but if the motor belt is smoked, the manual trim wheel procedure might be the better chance. Ideally you could use both, but I think the speed of the motor would be too high to do both, simultaneously.

So ideally, perhaps. 1. Cut stab trim 2. Let go pressure on the yoke 3. Both pilots manually crank the wheel. 4. When static friction is broke and the wheel starts to turn, press trim up button while putting stab trim back on, and letting go the handles when the motor kicks on. 5. Resume pulling back on yoke. 6. cut stab trim when the the stabilizer is corrected. 7. Clip a few trees 8. Don't stall the plane during or after the hard nose up maneuver. (I think this last part is going to be extremely difficult after/during step 7, esp on a plane that is aerodynamically unstable in the specific way that the MAX is reported to be).

Yeah, that sounds pretty complicated. It would help if the pilots had telepathy and a third arm. And there might be a helpful other step, to cut back throttle to 50% in situation like this, where the plane is losing altitude and gaining speed. The higher speeds made this problem worse. Then putting throttle back up somewhere between 1 and 7, depending on the delay.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 09:57:00 pm by KL27x »
 
The following users thanked this post: tooki


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf