NEW Next Gen 2 Series Tektronix Oscilloscope

[radar_macgyver]

I wonder if maybe in Dave's update rate shootout video, the holdoff was accidentally turned on? It may also behave that way due to immature firmware. The inability to decouple record length from horizontal scale indicates that the firmware needs work.

[EEVblog]

Persistence isn't going to help you if the scope doesn't capture the glitch in the waveform to begin with, and that's what's happening here.

I agree with the first part--and using your test the Siglent SDS1104X-E has 10-15k wfms/s actual throughput, with the burst rate up to 22k and about 15ms dead time every 50ms.  Its not a million wfms/s, but it is pretty good at even rare glitches.  But in your video you note a little flicker or glitch on the Tek that doesn't show up very well and I'd want to know if the persistence or color grading settings could do a decent job of making it show up with just standard edge triggering.

I happen to show that here:

[EEVblog]

I wonder if maybe in Dave's update rate shootout video, the holdoff was accidentally turned on?

Yes, but it was only 2.2us so I could get a stable display.

[Fungus]

FWIW there's a nice video showing the new Micsig in use here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/micsig-new-oscilloscopes-on-website/msg4228507/#msg4228507

(...just so you can compare UI, etc., with this new Tek. The Tek will certainly have more features).

Note that it has auto-probe detection. 

There doesn't seem to be much difference between this and the existing blue Micsigs, mostly color and little joysticks. If you prefer rotary knobs to joysticks then get the existing model. OTOH notice how little he actually needs to touch the joysticks in the entire video.

[bdunham7]

I happen to show that here:

I don't see any intensity variation--is this scope not DPO or color graded?  Or is that somewhere in the settings?

I think you should put the Combiscope into the digital mode and do an actual head-to-head comparison of their glitch capturing capabilities. 

[rsjsouza]

FWIW there's a nice video showing the new Micsig in use here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/micsig-new-oscilloscopes-on-website/msg4228507/#msg4228507

(...just so you can compare UI, etc., with this new Tek. The Tek will certainly have more features).

Note that it has auto-probe detection. 

There doesn't seem to be much difference between this and the existing blue Micsigs, mostly color and little joysticks. If you prefer rotary knobs to joysticks then get the existing model. OTOH notice how little he actually needs to touch the joysticks in the entire video.

For years I have been willing to give Micsigs a try (lack of funds unfortunately are very real).

The UI on this scope is quite good and responsive; The cursors at 25:40 and the trigger setting at 28:00 are incredibly smooth - it would give Tek a run for its money. Also, the text and hex decoding display are quite interesting, despite the bugs - which Micsig directly addressed in the comments on the video. Apart from Keysight (and perhaps R&S), which seems to be paying attention to the independent folks in the new media, I haven't seen Tek come down from their ivory tower and provide a comment on a random video from a lone guy (they might have, but I haven't seen it yet).

My fingers have much less control with finger-operated joysticks when compared to rotary buttons, but they have one more degree of freedom and can be much more versatile - not to mention this can be a real trendsetter, since the younger generations are much more familiar with those due to the gaming consoles - and it has real buttons, which are great to switch channels.

[2N3055]

It doesn't have zone triggers... scopes much less expensive come with it... And that is useful feature I use all the time..

[David Hess]

How is this thing ever going to catch runt pulses ? or glitches ? it almost looks like they are doing software triggering ...
that the screen freezes when you are zooming on or out, ok , but not when you change trigger level ! if i slide that trigger level up or down the machine should keep capturing .. that's how you seek out glitches in the first place. play with the trigger level until it traps something that is not normal. you do not know what you are looking for in the first place. it is an abnormality. so you need to bank on repetitive , fast and reliable acquisition to fish for it. This scope is sleeping 90% of its time , and completely dead if you do anything on screen.

...

They have a powerful FPGA and multicore processor. why is this not handled in the hardware fabric ?

...

The acquisition system should run independent of the visualization system.

The pattern of measured triggers indicates that it is operating with segmented memory.  So the acquisition hardware triggers and records separate short acquisition records until the total acquisition memory is filled, and then all of the records in the acquisition memory are processed by the CPU which is where the long delay between bursts of acquisitions occur.

So the acquisition system runs independently of the visualization system, but not at the same time.  (1) This is equivalent to "Fast Frame" on the old TDS series of oscilloscopes and what modern oscilloscopes call segmented memory.  Having them operate at the same time for gapless triggering requires double buffering, and requires the CPU to keep up with the acquisition system which is not easy; how much CPU is required to digest more than 1 GB/second per channel?  It is a lot.  Some modern DSOs manage it but they have massive CPU processing resources.

Personally I would rather have the acquisition hardware deliver histograms to the CPU when gapless acquisition is required, which is more like the old TDS "Insta View" or "Digital Phosphor" mode where the display record and acquisition record were the same thing.  This minimizes the memory transfer and processing demands on the CPU with only a small demand on the hardware.

(1) They may be operating at the same time, but the acquisition hardware stops while the acquisition record is transferred to the CPU.

[David Hess]

If I had to chose I'd rather have x10 probe detection than 50 ohm input.

are you saying this thing cannot detect a 1:10 probe ? that would be another colossal mistake

It has no probe detection hardware.  The excuse they gave is to make it thin, but I think that is bullshit.  The old TDS hardware used a flexible printed circuit laminate to add the required connections.

For the same reason I think using membrane buttons on the front panel was about cost and not depth or environmental reasons.

[David Hess]

In my experiments I showed that a pass through 50-Ohm termination can get around the lack of input termination. It is not the most convenient solution, but it works.

Doesn't the 14pF input capacitance cause VSWR issues, or did you insert a 3dB pad to minimise them?

Most oscilloscopes up to 500 MHz have the same high impedance input capacitance in both 50 ohm and 1 megohm input modes.  It makes little practical difference up to at least 300 MHz even with an external 50 ohm feedthrough termination.

There are some exceptions like the old Tektronix 485 which used a transmission line relay to switch the input between the 1 megohm amplifier and the 50 ohm amplifier, but that was because at the time they could not make a 1 megohm input amplifier that operated faster than 250 MHz.

[nctnico]

If I had to chose I'd rather have x10 probe detection than 50 ohm input.

are you saying this thing cannot detect a 1:10 probe ? that would be another colossal mistake

It has no probe detection hardware.  The excuse they gave is to make it thin, but I think that is bullshit.  The old TDS hardware used a flexible printed circuit laminate to add the required connections.

But that 'standard' has been abandoned by Tektronix a long time ago. Adding their current probe interface would add a lot of cost (also for powering probes). If you watch the interview with Dave and the guy from Tektronix, you'll notice that Tektronix has been interviewing their customers about what they want from a low cost oscilloscope. A probe interface / probe detection appearantly wasn't high on the list. And I tend to agree; the simple ring around a BNC is as good as useless. Either have nothing or go all the way.

[David Hess]

Dave: does the button have any tactile feel at all? Can you tell if there is a snap dome behind it?

There is definite sharp snap like it's a dome. And you can feel the back pressure as you release it, so feels like a metal dome to me. But could just be a really snappy feeling embossed membrane.
The smaller buttons seem to require more force than the larger wide button which work across most of the width, so not a round dome under them.

I did not see in the videos, but when the oscilloscope is on the stand, can you activate the buttons without pushing it over or sliding it?  Or do you have to reach around and grip it with your hand to keep it from moving?  I noticed that the buttons are all placed close to the edge allowing this.

[David Hess]

If I had to chose I'd rather have x10 probe detection than 50 ohm input.

are you saying this thing cannot detect a 1:10 probe ? that would be another colossal mistake

It has no probe detection hardware.  The excuse they gave is to make it thin, but I think that is bullshit.  The old TDS hardware used a flexible printed circuit laminate to add the required connections.

But that 'standard' has been abandoned by Tektronix a long time ago. Adding their current probe interface would add a lot of cost (also for powering probes). If you watch the interview with Dave and the guy from Tektronix, you'll notice that Tektronix has been interviewing their customers about what they want from a low cost oscilloscope. A probe interface / probe detection appearantly wasn't high on the list. And I tend to agree; the simple ring around a BNC is as good as useless. Either have nothing or go all the way.

But they gave the reason of it adding too much to the thickness.

Maybe they should not have abandoned such an easy to implement interface that added so much.

[thm_w]

Dave: does the button have any tactile feel at all? Can you tell if there is a snap dome behind it?

There is definite sharp snap like it's a dome. And you can feel the back pressure as you release it, so feels like a metal dome to me. But could just be a really snappy feeling embossed membrane.
The smaller buttons seem to require more force than the larger wide button which work across most of the width, so not a round dome under them.

I did not see in the videos, but when the oscilloscope is on the stand, can you activate the buttons without pushing it over or sliding it?  Or do you have to reach around and grip it with your hand to keep it from moving?  I noticed that the buttons are all placed close to the edge allowing this.

Its in Daves earliest vid, with the sticky rubber on the base, the buttons can be pressed with no sliding.

[Someone]

It doesn't have zone triggers... scopes much less expensive come with it... And that is useful feature I use all the time..

Well it does have mask testing, which is around "half" the functionality of "zone" triggering:
https://www.tek.com/en/video/how-to/2-series-mso---mask-testing

[Someone]

I did not see in the videos, but when the oscilloscope is on the stand, can you activate the buttons without pushing it over or sliding it?  Or do you have to reach around and grip it with your hand to keep it from moving?  I noticed that the buttons are all placed close to the edge allowing this.

That's shown in one of Teks short videos on the scope:
https://www.tek.com/en/video/how-to/2-series-mso---top-5-reasons-you-need-one

[tautech]

It doesn't have zone triggers... scopes much less expensive come with it... And that is useful feature I use all the time..

Well it does have mask testing, which is around "half" the functionality of "zone" triggering:
https://www.tek.com/en/video/how-to/2-series-mso---mask-testing

Would that equate to 25% of zone triggering when 2 trigger zones were used ?
I doubt it.

[Someone]

It doesn't have zone triggers... scopes much less expensive come with it... And that is useful feature I use all the time..

Well it does have mask testing, which is around "half" the functionality of "zone" triggering:
https://www.tek.com/en/video/how-to/2-series-mso---mask-testing

Would that equate to 25% of zone triggering when 2 trigger zones were used ?
I doubt it.

... depends if the zones are set for positive/negative masking, could equally be 100% or 0% which is why I said "half". "zone" triggers are a refinement/extension of mask testing with more features, absolutely comparable.

[David Hess]

During the event I asked them multiple times about the waveform update rate and they didn't answer that question. When watching Dave's first impression video, I found out why, the Tek person talking to Dave in that video said it was something like 5k waveforms per second, then followed with something like "it's not a fast scope" 
for 2k$    their competition being the RTB2000, which can do 300k, why is Tektronix so far behind in this regard? how fast do their 3 and up series update?

The low performance is consistent with market segmentation and a portable design which is power limited.

[free_electron]

If I had to chose I'd rather have x10 probe detection than 50 ohm input.

are you saying this thing cannot detect a 1:10 probe ? that would be another colossal mistake

It has no probe detection hardware.  The excuse they gave is to make it thin, but I think that is bullshit.  The old TDS hardware used a flexible printed circuit laminate to add the required connections.

For the same reason I think using membrane buttons on the front panel was about cost and not depth or environmental reasons.

all they need is a metal ring or , like you said a small flex. probe detection is a single pin around the bnc

[David Hess]

It has no probe detection hardware.  The excuse they gave is to make it thin, but I think that is bullshit.  The old TDS hardware used a flexible printed circuit laminate to add the required connections.

For the same reason I think using membrane buttons on the front panel was about cost and not depth or environmental reasons.

all they need is a metal ring or , like you said a small flex. probe detection is a single pin around the bnc

Detection of probe attenuation for the readout might be obsolete, but powering an active or differential probe sure is not.  Of course Tektronix could hardly support their obsolete but more suitable older probe interface, so they painted themselves into a corner there.

[mikeselectricstuff]

It has no probe detection hardware.  The excuse they gave is to make it thin, but I think that is bullshit.  The old TDS hardware used a flexible printed circuit laminate to add the required connections.

For the same reason I think using membrane buttons on the front panel was about cost and not depth or environmental reasons.

all they need is a metal ring or , like you said a small flex. probe detection is a single pin around the bnc

Detection of probe attenuation for the readout might be obsolete, but powering an active or differential probe sure is not.  Of course Tektronix could hardly support their obsolete but more suitable older probe interface, so they painted themselves into a corner there.

It's a pity that there was never a cross-manufacturer standard for probe interfaces. Nowadays USB is the obvious way to power a probe as pretty much all scopes from the last 10+ years have a USB A connector

[2N3055]

It doesn't have zone triggers... scopes much less expensive come with it... And that is useful feature I use all the time..

Well it does have mask testing, which is around "half" the functionality of "zone" triggering:
https://www.tek.com/en/video/how-to/2-series-mso---mask-testing

Beauty of zone triggers is that it is easy and fast to use. Most of the time you can just set one of advanced and conditional triggers and get same result. But zone trigger is by definition one standard trigger + a conditional fly/no fly zone that you simply drag on the screen..

Mask testing is something else, and is more connected with that glitch hunting discussion we have elswhere..

[David Hess]

Detection of probe attenuation for the readout might be obsolete, but powering an active or differential probe sure is not.  Of course Tektronix could hardly support their obsolete but more suitable older probe interface, so they painted themselves into a corner there.

It's a pity that there was never a cross-manufacturer standard for probe interfaces. Nowadays USB is the obvious way to power a probe as pretty much all scopes from the last 10+ years have a USB A connector

Probe attenuation readout was the only thing supported by multiple manufacturers.  It might be a coincidence, but Tektronix stopped supporting it not long after they sold off their cable manufacturing infrastructure in the 1990s so could not longer make their own probe cable with the extra wire for the readout connection.

USB might not be quite as good as the LEMO connector for probe power that Tektronix originally used, but their new DSO also lacks any USB sockets on the front panel.  Lack of support for active probes and 50 ohm termination seems odd for a 500 MHz DSO, but they got the bandwidth for free.

I happen to show that here:

DSOs should have a real advantage for glitch hunting, but as you showed, some are much better than others.  The trend as processor performance has increased is to do the glitch hunting during post-processing, but this Tektronix DSO apparently does not even support that.

Analog CRTs with higher acceleration voltage show rare events better, but at a completely different level of performance, the microchannel plate CRTs used in the Tektronix 2467, 7104, and 11302 would show the glitches with no problem at all at normal intensity, and that was one of their big applications.  A variable persistence (but not bistable!) analog storage CRTs could do it also.

[David Hess]

Well it does have mask testing, which is around "half" the functionality of "zone" triggering:
https://www.tek.com/en/video/how-to/2-series-mso---mask-testing

But mask testing is done during post-processing (at least on this DSO) so it does not help capture the glitch and you still have to wait.  It is not a replacement for low blind time or glitch triggering done during acquisition.