Covid 19 virus

[iMo]

.. our government has categorically stated it is impossible: they are bound by law to not do that, that they do not have the legal right to reinstate border controls.  ..

Is it a Finnish law or an EU law? EU countries like Czechia, Slovakia, Poland have closed their borders without any problems.

[Cerebus]

This is pretty much in line with what I'm experiencing currently. Flu like symptoms for the past couple of days. Now I start to develop a cough and my lungs start to feel watery.

In mid March in Europe you may feel similar symptoms with a) cold (because people underestimate the still low temperatures while sunny days already), b) flu - because the flu season, c) hay fever - allergy season starts - people with pollen allergies and asthma, d) others. Thus only a test will tell you more..

In general I tend to keep away from threads like this because I suffer from hysteria induced narcolepsy, but a real quick FYI:

Coarsly chop up onion, put in handkerchief, crush onion, inhale the sulfur goodness. No magic bullet (duh), but useful tool. The main component in this case being the anti-inflammatory one. Also anti-viral, but lets work under the assumption that the preventative ship has already sailed. You want to reduce or inhibit the inflamatory response induced by the viral infection making friends with your immune system.

If that folk remedy were to damp down the inflammatory response, if, then it would be exactly the wrong things to do. The inflammatory response is exactly evidence that your immune system is responding as it is supposed to.

Ninja-ing your local friend asthma patient's inhaler and huffing that also works /some/ but in general is frowned upon. Plus those are typically corticosteroids, so not the best match IMO as treatment in the early stages. AFAIK they are useful at the later stages though. Aaaanyways, trying not to get into it. Short version: inhale an onion and with a bit of luck enjoy the reduced discomfort. Cheap, easy, scalable, no substitute for proper medical care, but better than nothing in a situation where the relevant medical resources are somewhat strained. Good luck!

The normal, typical asthma inhalers are short acting beta2-adrenoceptor agonists  not corticosteriods. These 'reliever' inhalers - colour coded blue in the EU - typically contain salbutamol/albuterol but some use formoterol/eformoterol - those are the two commonest, there are others. These are only taken in immediate response to asthma symptoms and are the only asthma treating drug that is likely to offer some symptomatic relief in ARDS.  The dose delivered by a pocket inhaler is unlikely to be effective, both because of dose and delivery mechanism. People with ARDS probably are being treated with sympathomimetics like this, but by nebulisation of a solution with oxygen (producing a fine cloud of droplets that can be inhaled). Typical dose of salbutamol from a pocket inhaler 200ug, typical dose from nebulisation 2mg repeated every 15 minutes until an effective response is seen.

Sometimes atropine analogues are also given as relief medication (e.g. ipratropium bromide aka atrovent). Green colour coded asthma inhalers contain long acting beta2-adrenoceptor agonists and are given as preventative treatment on a regular basis to people with more serious cases. Brown colour coded inhalers are corticosteroids designed to damp down the immune response and prevent asthma symptoms from occurring in the first place when used on a regular basis. Use of corticosteriods would be specifically contraindicated in the presence of infection unless concomitant therapy was given for the infection. Some inhalers contain a mixture of types of medication (e.g. Symbicort, a long acting beta2 agonist (formoterol) with a corticosteroid (budesonide)) - there is no standard colour coding for combination inhalers.

Best you stick to not giving pharmaceutical/biomedical advice as you clearly don't know what you're talking about. Kindly remember that "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing".

[SilverSolder]

Does a tin foil hat provide any form of protection against this?

It is not a conspiracy theory, it is just a consequence of their actions.

They believe, like the worker movement in 1918 in Finland believed, that Finland is doomed unless it merges with a larger union.  They aren't evil, or conspiring; just ignorant and wrong.  They genuinely believe that unless they replace Finns with humanitarian immigrants, something bad will happen to everyone; that it must be done for the world to be safe.  Sometimes that bad thing is genetics ("we need better genes", even though most humanitarian immigrants suffer from consanguinity more than Finns), sometimes it is the aging population ("we need someone to wipe our bums when we are old", even though employment rate among the immigrants is significantly lower than average, and raw numbers indicate each humanitarian immigrants is financially a negative net loss on average for the society), sometimes it is "white man's burden" (the tar in most slave ships was produced in Finland), sometimes international obligations, sometimes something else.

Did you know that Finns are basically what remains of the hunter-gather population all over Europe, up till agriculture came along?  (See e.g. this, a report by Swedish archaeologists, using bog corpses dating back 5000 years.)  No, neither do Finns.  We are still taught in school that we displaced Sami people, coming from a bend somewhere in the river Volga.  And that we should be ashamed for our history.  Being a proud Finn is worse than announcing oneself as a reborn Adolf Hitler.  Try waving a Finnish flag on a sunny non-national holiday, and you will be spat on.

Fifteen years ago, at Helsinki University, I took the mandatory Swedish class.  The lecturer asked the students how they identify themselves: as Helsinki'ers, as Finns, or as Europeans.  95% of the students -- everyone except me -- said they identify themselves primarily as Helsinki'er, then as an European, and laughed the idea of identifying as a Finn.  That is how deeply self-loathing is ingrained in current youth.  (Me, I'm a barrel-raised woodland creature, and as basic [in the derogatory sense] a finn as you can get.)

Everything I am saying here is easily verifiable.  I am not implying that there is someone wringing their hands together, cackling evilly, with a plan on how to replace the population in Finland with immigrants.  I am just saying that the current actions inevitably lead to that.

The most important of those actions, in the current pandemic, and pertinent to this thread, is their absolute refusal to even consider reinstating border controls.

The reason for that is that while the majority of Finns have clamored for border controls ever since 2015, and returning humanitarian immigrants to the safe EU countries they came from, our government has categorically stated it is impossible: they are bound by law to not do that, that they do not have the legal right to reinstate border controls. 

If they now reinstated border controls, even for curbing the spread of the pandemic, they would immediately prove they have lied to Finnish citizens for years.

So, instead of doing the sane thing and protect everyone living in Finland by instating health inspection based border controls,
our beloved leaders are still claiming it would be illegal for them to do so.

The only reason to do so, is 1) to avoid being exposed as a liar, and 2) to avoid risking their long-term desire, of Finland being a haven for humanitarian immigration.

This is not a conspiracy theory, or any theory at all, because the first reason is a consequence of the second, and there are no other reasons stated by our politicians in the media (or even in private).

My take on it is - there is nothing wrong with being proud of your country and flying your flag.  But that must never become a reason to sh!t on other people or countries,  and you must never lose sight of the fact that you are not perfect.  (I have been to Finland, and liked it!)

[Nominal Animal]

.. our government has categorically stated it is impossible: they are bound by law to not do that, that they do not have the legal right to reinstate border controls.  ..

Is it a Finnish law or an EU law? EU countries like Czechia, Slovakia, Poland have closed their borders without any problems.

I have no idea, and the media is unwilling to ask such questions.

Searching Finlex, I'd say they are lying, but that too would make me a conspiracy theorist, wouldn't it?

My take on it is - there is nothing wrong with being proud of your country and flying your flag.  But that must never become a reason to sh!t on other people or countries,  and you must never lose sight of the fact that you are not perfect.  (I have been to Finland, and liked it!)

I absolutely agree.

While I rail against things like Finns not recognized as indigenous, it is not that I want some "privilege"; I just want us to look at history honestly, and learn from it, instead of using fictitious history as a political tool.

The "non-indigenousness" of Finns has been used as a political tool for over a hundred years, and even in the face of archaeological DNA evidence, there seems no end to it.  It is at the core of the beliefs that lead to the emotional need for Finland to be part of or replaced by something bigger.  I mean, respected researchers have rejected the DNA evidence, and instead state that linguistic theories are more reliable, because those theories can be used in guilting people to follow some political ideology/agenda or other.

[iMo]

Finland may close their borders anytime, as they wish. There cannot be such a law which forbids that. An EU country still may decide on its borders even it is a part of Schengen Area (26 countries incl. Finland).

[Nominal Animal]

Finland may close their borders anytime, as they wish. There cannot be such a law which forbids that. An EU country still may decide on its borders even it is a part of Schengen Area (26 countries incl. Finland).

Yes, I agree.  However, the reason why Finland hasn't instated even spot health checks, or tracked people who came from the infection hotspot, is as I explained above.  It skirts dangerously close to political discussion, but my point is, Finland is hurting in this pandemic because of really odd politics.

[Siwastaja]

Finland may close their borders anytime, as they wish. There cannot be such a law which forbids that. An EU country still may decide on its borders even it is a part of Schengen Area (26 countries incl. Finland).

The government could legally do that, but the current government seems to be preoccupied on giving public statements that sound like they are still talking from the opposition to their voters, instead of understanding they are the ones leading now. Instead of taking any action, there is a lot of talk about far-away goals. And a lot of lying that they "can't" do something when it's matter of not wanting to do it; even if it's something that's rational, and have the people's support behind.

Actually, the current government has the habit to dismiss any legal options by lying about any action being "against international agreements", of course never specifying which mystical agreement they refer to. Further, the government has the option to change laws (including withdrawing from any international agreement); that's what they technically exist for. But this isn't understood here, neither by the government itself, or the media.

The number of infections went down today here, due to the new policy of practically next to no testing. It's not necessarily a bad idea to decide not to test - but then it needs to be clearly stated that the situation is not under control, as it's unknown how many infections we have.

[Nominal Animal]

Off topic story and joke time.

The reason there is no "Finnish Supremacy" movement is that the entire idea is utterly absurd to even the most ardent fennophile.

(Even the "Soldiers of Odin" and the banned "Nordic Resistance Movement" here are nordic, inclusive of Swedes and Norwegians and Danes, not fennocentric.  The closest thing that comes to it is the Greater Finland meme.  The actual movement is basically about cultural preservation among Finnic peoples.  The map meme is absurdist, related to Help Helper, Spurdo Spärde, and so on.)

An old joke describes the typical Finnish mentality to the teeth:

An American, a German, a Swede, and a Finn are on a safari in Africa.  They come across a big elephant, with huge tusks.
The American thinks, "If I could get that in a zoo in America, I'd be a millionaire within a year!"
The German thinks, "The sheer amount of power in that animal!  If I could tame it, I could build a bridge in a day!"
The Swede thinks, "Just think of the number of likes I'd get on instagram if I could get a selfie with her on the background!"
The Finn thinks, "I wonder what that elephant thinks of me."

If you walk around in Finland, and see a Finn looking at you with their brow furrowed, there is a 90% chance they are wondering what you think of them.  They don't speak to you first, because they are ashamed of their accent, and don't want to bother you.  The 10% chance is that they just have a resting bitch face, and weren't actually looking at you.

I'm not kidding here, by the way.  Younger folks in cities are much more social (I blame social media), but in general, the above applies.

[Siwastaja]

.. our government has categorically stated it is impossible: they are bound by law to not do that, that they do not have the legal right to reinstate border controls.  ..

Is it a Finnish law or an EU law? EU countries like Czechia, Slovakia, Poland have closed their borders without any problems.

Lying and manipulation doesn't need to follow such logic. This is of course sad from the health of democracy viewpoint...

[nctnico]

Off topic story and joke time.

The reason there is no "Finnish Supremacy" movement is that the entire idea is utterly absurd to even the most ardent fennophile.

I have visited Finland (Helsinki) several times for work. One of the Finnish people told me that Finland is the land of lost wars. Still there is quite a bit to be proud of for the people of Finland. Just start with Nokia.

[SiliconWizard]

The "non-indigenousness" of Finns has been used as a political tool for over a hundred years, and even in the face of archaeological DNA evidence, there seems no end to it.  It is at the core of the beliefs that lead to the emotional need for Finland to be part of or replaced by something bigger.  I mean, respected researchers have rejected the DNA evidence, and instead state that linguistic theories are more reliable, because those theories can be used in guilting people to follow some political ideology/agenda or other.

This is not specific to Finland, by the way. This has been used in other countries as well.

[paulca]

Do we have to be careful using other people's hot snot?

[Nominal Animal]

Although this is semi-off topic, I think I should point out the main reason some Finns, like me, complain about the so-called "population replacement program".  It is not so much about that happening, but it happening because the people making it happen think they are doing something completely different.  It is a derisive term.

You see, on one hand, immigration to Finland is non-trivial.  You are required to prove you can provide for yourself and your family.  A friend who had worked for years at an University as a researcher, paying their taxes and everything for years, lost their job due to organizational changes, and got a whole month to leave Finland.

On the other hand, if you declare yourself as an asylum seeker on the border, you can stay in Finland for as long as you like, and get all the benefits citizens get plus extra on top (from nonprofits and for-profit companies dealing with humanitarian immigration to Finland).  When you get the decision that you do not actually qualify as a refugee according to UN definition (like the vast majority does), you can simply refile your asylum request.  Furthermore, the judicial system has decided not to try and deport those asylum seekers convicted of violent crime.

(Part of that could be that unlike Sweden and Norway, Finland does not have repatriation agreements with the countries most of these immigrants originate from.  Part of it could be the weird Finnish type of corruption; a lot of the judges and prosecutors belong to Demla, an originally communist and social democrat organization established in 1954 devoted to "social justice", now claiming to be "apolitical".  Anecdotal statistics of known members indicates their actions have a heavy political bias.  Of course, I do believe they themselves believe they are doing the right thing, and therefore do not consider it corruption at all.  A similar bias exists in Finnish media, who like to tout themselves as the most Free in the world, while admitting freely that they feel their task is to be the gatekeeper, to select what the Finnish populace should hear about, and what should not be talked about.)

In general, Finns view ordinary work-related immigration favourably, but the humanitarian immigration much less favourably.  According to a 2010 poll, 60% of Finns were in favour of stricter humanitarian immigration controls, and 41% were in favour of relaxing work-related immigration rules.  So, it is not like Finns view all immigrants negatively, it is the disparity between the rules, and the consequences of those disparities, that many Finns object to.

When we look at population statistics, if the current trend in humanitarian immigration continues in Finland, Finns will be a minority by somewhere between 2040 and 2100.  (Humanitarian immigration to Finland has occurred in steps in a very short interval, all from 1990 onwards, so it is difficult to extrapolate the trend from the data.)

The reason I call the humanitarian immigration efforts in Finland "a population replacement program" is because of that is what it leads to, even if/when the people behind it have different purpose in mind.  It is a "program" because none of the politicians in charge take responsibility for it, and claim that these policies are dictated by law and by international agreement; that their hands are tied.

It is completely uninteresting and unimportant to discuss which policy is preferable/good/bad/whatever, because there is no objective right or wrong in politics.  It's up to those in Finland to discuss and agree what they want to do and how, just like it should be everywhere else, in my opinion.

My intention in this thread (and in some other threads where I've brought up some aspects of this) is to highlight the machinery and methodology these politicians use to make people believe their political choices are self-evident truths bound by law and international agreement.

I probably should use some less loaded term instead of "population replacement program", but all the other ones I could think of are just as loaded on the other side -- like "humanitarian immigration", when it really is about 90% misusing the UN refugee programs to gain a financial advantage; they aren't being that humanitarian towards the actual refugees who could use that help instead.

This is related to the topic at hand in that the main tool used by some politicians in their drive wrt. immigration, is now endangering a the population in Finland, as travel restrictions are kept off the table.  The rapid growth in the number of infected proves the danger.  The fact that testing is now stopped (for all except health services personnel, and politicians of course), proves just how far they are willing to go.

Because of these reasons, I believe Sweden will be the hardest hit in Europe (fraction of population infected), followed by Finland.  (In Finland, I expect Helsinki, Turku, Tampere and Oulu to be the hardest hit, with everywhere else having much lower fraction of infected.)
This largely depends on what kind of restrictions on travel each country sets (internally), though.

[not1xor1]

here? Where? You didn't set your country code 

   Presently just outside of Orlando, Florida, USA in a town called "Christmas".

so one might wish you "good There and Happy New Year" 

[not1xor1]

So the novel coronavirus is NOT like a flu. For one, it seems to be gradual over a few days and then develop into ARDS (acute respiratory distress syndrome).

This is pretty much in line with what I'm experiencing currently. Flu like symptoms for the past couple of days. Now I start to develop a cough and my lungs start to feel watery. I got pneumonia before when swimming in too cold water so I'm familiar with the feeling (which was much worse than it is now though).

That is what kills people.

I hope not; I'd like to stick around for a bit longer. Needless to say I'm staying at home.

here you get examination if your temperature is higher than 37.5°C
if you can't breath, feel lack of oxygen, then you should get a swab

besides that it will take time to manage and check all the data, but unless I misremember, severe cases are just 10%
most people get along with mild symptoms and some do not even realize he/she got the virus

in any case we should take care of every life rather than of the fucking markets

[not1xor1]

This age discrimination reminds me of Soylent Green. https://www.theage.com.au/world/europe/italy-may-abandon-over-80s-to-their-fate-as-crisis-grows-20200315-p54a75.html

Maybe age discrimination is legal in Italy. It certainly is not in Australia except by the insurance industry. If the Chinese can build a hospital in six days, why can't the Italians?

pure bullshit
there is no age discrimination but it is like war
when resources are limited a doctor might chose to devote them to people more likely to recover and that doesn't depend on age (a 101 old chines man fully recovered and suffered only quite mild symptoms) but on general health conditions

e.g. a 30 years old may be affected by a last stage cancer and other pathologies, while an 80 years old one may just have the virus

[not1xor1]

Still, making the choice of who lives and who dies based on age, is age discrimination by definition

there is no case of age discrimination, just fake news

[paulca]

but it is like war

The first casualty is the truth?  Plausible, but we were already dealing with the mainstream press.  If you want the hyperbole look there, extrapolate back to reality.

[not1xor1]

but it is like war

The first casualty is the truth?  Plausible, but we were already dealing with the mainstream press.  If you want the hyperbole look there, extrapolate back to reality.

just fake news...
there are plenty of that even here...
people who speak about unlikely protective masks, unlikely remedies and so on
enough is enough

The sad truth is rather that Germany even stole a large quantity of protective masks bought from China and unboarded in Amburg just because they were in transit there and they have forbidden individual protection devices export.

The same thing happened to me.
I had ordered respiratory masks (3M aura FFP3 grade) for other purposes in mid February from Conrand. They were "soon available". But at the beginning of March they deleted my order because of the export ban.

[not1xor1]

As for expectations that the virus will become less potent with hotter weather and higher humidity... That did not work well in tropical hot Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand, in warm Hong Kong, California, or in countries of Southern Hemisphere, including Australia.

just see this:

A significant number of infectious diseases display seasonal patterns in their incidence, including human coronaviruses. We hypothesize that SARS-CoV-2 does as well. To date, Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19), caused by SARS-CoV-2, has established significant community spread in cities and regions only along a narrow east west distribution roughly along the 30-50 N” corridor at consistently similar weather patterns (5-11 degrees Celsius and low specific and absolute humidity). There has been a lack of significant community establishment in expected locations that are based only on population proximity and extensive population interaction through travel. We have proposed a simplified model that shows a zone at increased risk for COVID-19 spread. Using weather modeling, it may be possible to predict the regions most likely to be at higher risk of significant community spread of COVID-19 in the upcoming weeks, allowing for concentration of public health efforts on surveillance and containment.

[CatalinaWOW]

All of this talk about what you can or can't do in various countries is not entirely correct.  A business leader I respected highly created a slogan "YAGOTTAWANNA"  which is probably easily understood by most English speakers. 

The company involved responded to an urgent need by building an office building in 30 days, from ground breaking to occupancy.   Far less than the usual 6 months to a year for similar buildings.  It involved breaking a lot of rules, ignoring inspection requirements, equal opportunity bidding, competitive bidding, minority preferances and any number of other regulations.  That 30 day interval is not the limit on how quickly it could have been done, but reflects the time frame of the requirement.  Greater need would result in greater speed, though I am not sure that here in the US we could match the Chinese result.
 (Also not sure what the specs on that Chinese hospital were.  Military field hospitals can go up in a matter of hours.)  But that building was built correctly and is still in use a quarter century later.   There were consequences, fines, post construction demonstration of code compliance and many, many instances of retaliatory go slow on subsequent building projects.  But the need was met and the costs were just what it took to get it done.

The same thing applies to the current COVID crisis.  Leaders who are willing to accept the consequences will take action.  If the actions result in a clear success the consequences will be small and well worth it.  If the results are middling anything could happen.  And obviously if the actions don't lead to success, or even make things worse there will be severe repercussions.   

The courage and wisdom of our leaders is being tested, and in many cases there are failures in both categories.  In my country the problem is not just at the top.  Too much attention is being paid to gaining political points and not enough to identifying the situation and then selecting and implementing responses.

[not1xor1]

bullshit... or more precisely cow shit and urine... as coronavirus cure 

Hindu group touts cow urine elixir for coronavirus

 

[nctnico]

The NL goes into lockdown for the next 3 weeks. This causes long lines with people who want to get some weed while they still can:

[DrG]

........
The same thing applies to the current COVID crisis.  Leaders who are willing to accept the consequences will take action.  If the actions result in a clear success the consequences will be small and well worth it.  If the results are middling anything could happen.  And obviously if the actions don't lead to success, or even make things worse there will be severe repercussions.  ......

Strongly agree. I would add that NON-ACTION is a huge part of the analysis.

.....The courage and wisdom of our leaders is being tested, and in many cases there are failures in both categories.  In my country the problem is not just at the top. .....

Again, I strongly agree, but there is and has been a HUGE problem at the top and it can not be understated. The relevant SMEs referred to this as the one we were expecting. They have been routinely discounted by many who, through denial or arrogance, refused to listen.

You must know Fauci and while I do not know him personally, I have attended his talks many times over many years. So often in the last two months, he has appeared almost as an Island in a sea of chaos.

In contrast to the "Top's", denials, chronic bungling, chaotic miscommunications, walk backs of what was said only a few hours earlier, and the stark contradictions voiced  by people who actually are SME or listen to those with SME. Despite all of this, we are seeing many Governors putting operations in place and explaining exactly what they are doing and why. We are seeing the medical Institutions putting sound judgement into action. We are seeing a a coalescence of rationality. While it may never be complete, I believe it will become dominant.

..... Too much attention is being paid to gaining political points and not enough to identifying the situation and then selecting and implementing responses.....

Again, I agree, but that is the norm for pretty much everything in the age of media over exposure. In this thread, I have been critical of some of the specific missteps made "at the top". Yes, criticism suggests blame, but, in my view, it is warranted here and now. It is part of the consequences that you speak of and those consequence will be felt forward...in November.

[mrflibble]

First of all, thanks for your reaction. It did make me reread my own post and realize that I wrote either too much or not enough, depending on how you look at it. Just enough to potentially cause trouble, and not nearly enough to clearly convey things without risk of miscommunication. I mostly intended it as a "hey are you aware of xyz" and mostly expect others to do their own check & double checking. Case in point, rereading it, the tongue in cheek way in which I worded the bit about the corticosteroids was a bad plan. And the way you describe how it's probably used in relation to ARDS is indeed how I understood it as well, at the stage where they are on the ventilator. Anyways, so either I write a whole lot more to cover everything, or a whole lot less. To make it a responsible post is going to take too bloody long, working out notes, hunting down references etc. Nope, not that invested. So deleted my post because it was a bad idea.

The one thing that does puzzle me a tiny wee bit is:

If that folk remedy were to damp down the inflammatory response, if, then it would be exactly the wrong things to do. The inflammatory response is exactly evidence that your immune system is responding as it is supposed to.

This is indeed true. Unfortunately what is also true is that too much inflammation, is well, too much. I believe the phrase we're looking for here is "fatal inflammatory response". It's a common theme in entirely too many pathologies... So maybe I don't understand you correctly?  To keep it within the current context, read for example this one:

https://www.virosin.org/fileZGBDX/journal/article/vs/newcreate/0216.pdf

Anyways, thanks for the sanity check.