Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...

[SilverSolder]

Someone I know (female, quiet, hard working, stable citizen etc.) recently had their Facebook account hacked.  The hackers did something that caused Facebook to flag the account with "copyright violation" and terminating it.  Facebook won't reinstate the account, all attempts have lead to a dead end.  A decade or more of photos, conversations...   gone.

Yet another reason to avoid relying too much on cloud services.  Truly, they are fair weather friends only...

[coppercone2]

there is another problem too, license related games. some companies make the DMV look good when it comes to your license. you worried about getting revoked? how about just plain old disappearance and loss of identity?

declared legally dead a year after promise of immortality. 

with the ways things are run in corporate, a license is like being a citizen of a transient revolutionary state which is in the middle of two coups (nazi and also socialist), foreign interference from 4 other terrestrial nations, a foreign galactic superpower (USA government) and also natural disaster prone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Terminal

it's like if you put deep space nine, bejor, cardassia and the worm hole in the trisection between klingons, romulans and federation (the show normal setting is not crazy enough to depict corporate licensing), and a drunk Q is required also. and second worm hole that goes into borg space

and the mad funny thing is that this is about PDF which you can literarly replace with paper. no miniturization and optical tricks like its some IC mask thing, its just fucking paperwork

[Karel]

Someone I know (female, quiet, hard working, stable citizen etc.) recently had their Facebook account hacked.  The hackers did something that caused Facebook to flag the account with "copyright violation" and terminating it.  Facebook won't reinstate the account, all attempts have lead to a dead end.  A decade or more of photos, conversations...   gone.

Yet another reason to avoid relying too much on cloud services.  Truly, they are fair weather friends only...

I tried facebook 15 years ago. After 2 weeks I emptied and canceled my account. Never touched it again.
No whatsapp, instagram or twitter here. Social media is a curse, a tool of hate.
I do use Telegram though for business and to stay in contact with friends and family abroad.
But no "channel subscriptions"...

[Marco]

Whatsapp isn't social media, it's just a messenger.

[Karel]

Whatsapp isn't social media, it's just a messenger.

Whatever. I don't use anything from tech giants.
If it wasn't for OsmAnd which I use for navigating when hiking and traveling, I would replace my iphone with a dumbphone.

[PlainName]

Whatsapp isn't social media, it's just a messenger.

Also sucks all your contacts out of your phone and sends them back to base before you can says "WTF". Doesn't have a desktop (no, a browser running in background forever is not a desktop app), and requires a phone number. Even the browser requires you to keep logging in through that phone number.

OTOH, XMPP has none of that yet still works very well. Whatsapp and the like could have built on that.

[coppice]

Whatsapp isn't social media, it's just a messenger.

The group features of Whatsapp are very much used as social media. Not the wide open kind, but often for quite wide ranging groups.

[SiliconWizard]

Whatsapp isn't social media, it's just a messenger.

The group features of Whatsapp are very much used as social media. Not the wide open kind, but often for quite wide ranging groups.

Yep, that's what I've heard too. I don't use it personally, but it's like everyone who advertises their Whatsapp number does it for making others join their group. Pretty much like small social networks.
Looks like dumbed down Discord actually, in practice.

[SilverSolder]

What is the best messenger type app, for heretics that just want to connect with friends and family without being Borg'd?

[PlainName]

Depends how much they can be bothered to run another client.

Here I run an ejabberd server so we are doing XMPP. On my PC I run MirandaNG which is a cool desktop client, my partner runs pidgin on her desktop and Yaxim on her phone. There are other clients, and you can go federation to connect worldwide if you want.

Main problem with all of these is the client. Once upon a time I could do XMPP, Skype, Twitter, Yahoo, Quakenet, etc., all from this one client, so there was no problem just having it backgrounding in the task tray and anyone could contact me at any time. Now, none of those work except for XMPP because they've all decided to take control of the users, so to do the same now I'd need a separate client for each, and those would probably be browser-based and essentially drag my computer to its knees just so I can be available. Fuck that. I will fire up Skype if someone texts me and says they want to chat, which isn't conducive to ad-hoc chatting which these apps and protocols is supposed to be about.

So the tl;dr is either the people you contact would need to be similarly into none of the popular stuff, or they would need to put up with yet another app running that won't be doing anything most of the time.

[Gyro]

What is the best messenger type app, for heretics that just want to connect with friends and family without being Borg'd?

1. Signal - if you want a secure similar experience to Whatsapp (but including groups). Non-profit, phone number based.

2. If you want a secure bare-bones non Borg'd messenger then the free VSee messenger app, email address based. VSee is a Telemedicine company that provides secure messaging and video consultations for medical professionals. VSee messenger is the free app they provide for users [Edit: patients]. It's nice and basic, no groups, not even emojis (it does provide file transfer though) but clean and reliable.

I like to know where the revenue stream comes from for an app, Signal is non-profit, non company affiliated, donation based. VSee make their money from selling their full services to medical providers. Whatsapp's is the Borg.

I started with VSee, added Signal as it was a bit more mainstream but now their Desktop app no longer works on my Windows7(!) I've gone back to VSee.

Video quality for both apps is fine.

[SiliconWizard]

Yeah, I have Signal too. It's not too bad.

Whatsapp has been part of Meta for a while. I'm sure it's very private and secure - that's definitely Meta's motto.

[SilverSolder]

Depends how much they can be bothered to run another client.

Here I run an ejabberd server so we are doing XMPP. On my PC I run MirandaNG which is a cool desktop client, my partner runs pidgin on her desktop and Yaxim on her phone. There are other clients, and you can go federation to connect worldwide if you want.

Main problem with all of these is the client. Once upon a time I could do XMPP, Skype, Twitter, Yahoo, Quakenet, etc., all from this one client, so there was no problem just having it backgrounding in the task tray and anyone could contact me at any time. Now, none of those work except for XMPP because they've all decided to take control of the users, so to do the same now I'd need a separate client for each, and those would probably be browser-based and essentially drag my computer to its knees just so I can be available. Fuck that. I will fire up Skype if someone texts me and says they want to chat, which isn't conducive to ad-hoc chatting which these apps and protocols is supposed to be about.

So the tl;dr is either the people you contact would need to be similarly into none of the popular stuff, or they would need to put up with yet another app running that won't be doing anything most of the time.

The EU ought to mandate interoperability between communications networks, just like they mandate standard charging ports.   -  Fragmented islands of communications is frankly ridiculous and a big step backwards from the old black bakelite telephone with a rotary dial...

[SilverSolder]

Yeah, I have Signal too. It's not too bad.

Whatsapp has been part of Meta for a while. I'm sure it's very private and secure - that's definitely Meta's motto.

I am beginning to appreciate the French sense of humour! 

[Nominal Animal]

Fragmented islands of communications is frankly ridiculous and a big step backwards from the old black bakelite telephone with a rotary dial...

You forget: those companies are not in the business to sell communications services, they are in the business of selling detailed consumer information and profiles on anyone using that service.

[SilverSolder]

Fragmented islands of communications is frankly ridiculous and a big step backwards from the old black bakelite telephone with a rotary dial...

You forget: those companies are not in the business to sell communications services, they are in the business of selling detailed consumer information and profiles on anyone using that service.

Yes, but who were the geniuses that gave these firms the keys to the communications castle without considering fragmentation as an obvious issue?   

This constitutes political failure to regulate the market at its most obvious.

[BradC]

Yes, but who were the geniuses that gave these firms the keys to the communications castle without considering fragmentation as an obvious issue?   

This constitutes political failure to regulate the market at its most obvious.

What is the other option? Design by committee?

[Nominal Animal]

Yes, but who were the geniuses that gave these firms the keys to the communications castle without considering fragmentation as an obvious issue?   

This constitutes political failure to regulate the market at its most obvious.

What is the other option? Design by committee?

No, just regulate them politically the same way you do all other utilities.  The protocols are equivalent to letting each electricity company decide what frequency and voltage they provide their customers.  The already existing de-facto standard would be XMPP.

[PlainName]

This constitutes political failure to regulate the market at its most obvious.

Had they done that we'd be complaining about the internet being politicised

Besides which, when should they have done it? When someone first writes a few lines and chats with their mates? When more than 100 people use it? When it needs more than one server to handle the traffic? Next you'd be wanting there to be One True OS and every app must conform and run on that.

[coppice]

The EU ought to mandate interoperability between communications networks, just like they mandate standard charging ports.   -  Fragmented islands of communications is frankly ridiculous and a big step backwards from the old black bakelite telephone with a rotary dial...

Comms that doesn't interoperate is a farce, but be careful what you wish for. There are numerous examples around the world of mandated interoperability agreements locking communications into being being eternally expensive.

[SilverSolder]

The EU ought to mandate interoperability between communications networks, just like they mandate standard charging ports.   -  Fragmented islands of communications is frankly ridiculous and a big step backwards from the old black bakelite telephone with a rotary dial...

Comms that doesn't interoperate is a farce, but be careful what you wish for. There are numerous examples around the world of mandated interoperability agreements locking communications into being being eternally expensive.

I we keep it simple, e.g. at the level of SMS, for example, it is hardly asking a lot...

[coppice]

The EU ought to mandate interoperability between communications networks, just like they mandate standard charging ports.   -  Fragmented islands of communications is frankly ridiculous and a big step backwards from the old black bakelite telephone with a rotary dial...

Comms that doesn't interoperate is a farce, but be careful what you wish for. There are numerous examples around the world of mandated interoperability agreements locking communications into being being eternally expensive.

I we keep it simple, e.g. at the level of SMS, for example, it is hardly asking a lot...

SMS is actually a good example of what I was referring to. Originally most GSM phones interoperated just fine for boice, because they had to connect to the global PSTN to be useful. SMS didn't. In many countries you could only SMS to another phone on the same network. Then governments stepped in, reasonably saying this was dumb, and pushing the networks to interoperate. So, they formed working groups, set fees for exchanging SMSes, with no tit for tat arrangements in the pricing. Now, SMS was locked in by agreements with the government to be damned expensive forever. Needless to say, in markets where this happened SMS volumes were always low.

[SilverSolder]

The EU ought to mandate interoperability between communications networks, just like they mandate standard charging ports.   -  Fragmented islands of communications is frankly ridiculous and a big step backwards from the old black bakelite telephone with a rotary dial...

Comms that doesn't interoperate is a farce, but be careful what you wish for. There are numerous examples around the world of mandated interoperability agreements locking communications into being being eternally expensive.

I we keep it simple, e.g. at the level of SMS, for example, it is hardly asking a lot...

SMS is actually a good example of what I was referring to. Originally most GSM phones interoperated just fine for boice, because they had to connect to the global PSTN to be useful. SMS didn't. In many countries you could only SMS to another phone on the same network. Then governments stepped in, reasonably saying this was dumb, and pushing the networks to interoperate. So, they formed working groups, set fees for exchanging SMSes, with no tit for tat arrangements in the pricing. Now, SMS was locked in by agreements with the government to be damned expensive forever. Needless to say, in markets where this happened SMS volumes were always low.

Yes, but today SMS is (usually) cheap, and it works!  What they choose to charge is not really related to what it does...

[coppice]

The EU ought to mandate interoperability between communications networks, just like they mandate standard charging ports.   -  Fragmented islands of communications is frankly ridiculous and a big step backwards from the old black bakelite telephone with a rotary dial...

Comms that doesn't interoperate is a farce, but be careful what you wish for. There are numerous examples around the world of mandated interoperability agreements locking communications into being being eternally expensive.

I we keep it simple, e.g. at the level of SMS, for example, it is hardly asking a lot...

SMS is actually a good example of what I was referring to. Originally most GSM phones interoperated just fine for boice, because they had to connect to the global PSTN to be useful. SMS didn't. In many countries you could only SMS to another phone on the same network. Then governments stepped in, reasonably saying this was dumb, and pushing the networks to interoperate. So, they formed working groups, set fees for exchanging SMSes, with no tit for tat arrangements in the pricing. Now, SMS was locked in by agreements with the government to be damned expensive forever. Needless to say, in markets where this happened SMS volumes were always low.

Yes, but today SMS is (usually) cheap, and it works!  What they choose to charge is not really related to what it does...

What you charge DETERMINES what something does in practice. Something everyone should be familiar with in regard to what has happened to perceptions of good uses for energy in the past 3 years, where it has been priced out of various otherwise desirable things.

[SilverSolder]

The EU ought to mandate interoperability between communications networks, just like they mandate standard charging ports.   -  Fragmented islands of communications is frankly ridiculous and a big step backwards from the old black bakelite telephone with a rotary dial...

Comms that doesn't interoperate is a farce, but be careful what you wish for. There are numerous examples around the world of mandated interoperability agreements locking communications into being being eternally expensive.

I we keep it simple, e.g. at the level of SMS, for example, it is hardly asking a lot...

SMS is actually a good example of what I was referring to. Originally most GSM phones interoperated just fine for boice, because they had to connect to the global PSTN to be useful. SMS didn't. In many countries you could only SMS to another phone on the same network. Then governments stepped in, reasonably saying this was dumb, and pushing the networks to interoperate. So, they formed working groups, set fees for exchanging SMSes, with no tit for tat arrangements in the pricing. Now, SMS was locked in by agreements with the government to be damned expensive forever. Needless to say, in markets where this happened SMS volumes were always low.

Yes, but today SMS is (usually) cheap, and it works!  What they choose to charge is not really related to what it does...

What you charge DETERMINES what something does in practice. Something everyone should be familiar with in regard to what has happened to perceptions of good uses for energy in the past 3 years, where it has been priced out of various otherwise desirable things.

Yes, but the cost of providing the energy went up (a lot)...   The cost of providing a simple interoperability interface should not be too bad.   Maybe everyone could code to some preferably open source API.