Neoden 4 pick and place

[skywave]

Hi There,

I'm thinking of buying a Neoden 4. My boards are pretty small, do you have any specs:
- on the minimum fiducial size that can be used
- if it can be close to the pcb edge
- if the machine can handle well white pcbs? (since it seems there is no setup available for the cameras)

My concern is if that one of the points above can't be solved by the new Neoden 4, then it's useless for me to buy one.

Maybe one of you guys have already tested this, or the guys from Neoden could help me (anyone reading this?)

Best Regards

[mikeselectricstuff]

Hi There,

I'm thinking of buying a Neoden 4. My boards are pretty small, do you have any specs:
- on the minimum fiducial size that can be used
- if it can be close to the pcb edge
- if the machine can handle well white pcbs? (since it seems there is no setup available for the cameras)

My concern is if that one of the points above can't be solved by the new Neoden 4, then it's useless for me to buy one.

Maybe one of you guys have already tested this, or the guys from Neoden could help me (anyone reading this?)

Best Regards

Why would this matter ? you'd normally put FIDs on the panel borders

[TheSteve]

The machine expects the board reference to be your first part which is an absolute value from 0,0. The fiducial points are then are then a relative value from the first part. This isn't out preferred way of doing it. We have experimented with using the board bottom left corner or fiducial points as the start as well. You just create a new part at the top of the list and then tell the machine to skip it when placing.

[elmood]

TheSteve: Okay, but what happens to the rest of the parts in the chiplist? Do their coordinates get changed from the imported values? When I tested it and then tried to "align" them, it used the points as absolute coordinates.

[TheSteve]

You want all of the parts relative to whatever you picked as 0,0. I believe there is a button in the upper right of the screen that is slightly cutoff. If you click it it changes everything to absolute values - uncheck it!

[elmood]

Oh! I don't see any partially cutoff button... do you mean in the chiplist area? What's it called? That sounds like exactly what I'm after!

[Smallsmt]

Normally the imported pnp data will be referenced to a user defined PCB origin.
Take care to define the origin in your CAD system near the PCB outline or use one edge.
So the exported data is not in the middle of nowhere.

Fiducials always depend on the PCB origin so this need to be set first.

@skywave
I think white PCB will be a problem for the machine we have a switch to invert the image before alignment so white pcb will work!

Does anyone know how much pcb space the conveyour need to hold the pcb?

If the conveyour covers the edge of the pcb no fiducial recognition is possible if the fiducial was placed there!

The common fiducial size should be 1mm circle having a 3mm circle openening for the soldermask
look here for an example : http://www.smallsmt.biz/home/know-how/mark-detection-demo/

[elmood]

Smallsmt: I measured that approx. 0.200" would be needed to fully clear the rails on each side. I have a few older designs that will need some parts skipped due to this restriction, but normally it's not a problem. I don't put rails on boards because in the past the PCBA would do this to their specification. I guess now that I'm the PCBA I should do this.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I think white PCB will be a problem for the machine we have a switch to invert the image before alignment so white pcb will work!

Why would solde mask colour matter ? Fids should be clear of mask so it aligns to the copper.

[mrpackethead]

I think white PCB will be a problem for the machine we have a switch to invert the image before alignment so white pcb will work!

Why would solde mask colour matter ? Fids should be clear of mask so it aligns to the copper.

absolutely!   There are masks that will completely obscure the copper,   So unless you had X-ray vision, you might be completely stuffed.

[Smallsmt]

The PCB color is a problem if the color is white you will receive a black image for the copper and white for the PCB so you need to invert the image if the vision system use over saturation.

Without solder mask opening you receive reflections around the center mark point and that's bad for the vision too.

But there are different technologies for image recognition so it is maybe no problem.

[mikeselectricstuff]

The PCB color is a problem if the color is white you will receive a black image for the copper and white for the PCB so you need to invert the image if the vision system use over saturation.

It would only be an issue if your camera has auto-gain, where the white outside the FID area pushes the gain down. The actual fid will always be copper against bare PCB, and the camera image should mask out anything outside the fid area.

[TankSparks]

Hi,  I'm the owner of the Neoden 4 TheSteve is referring to.  I spent hours playing with the software, 
I recently sent Neoden instructions on how to use their machine.

As far as I know No training video or manual shows the setup for relative x,y and fiducial data

Here is what I came up with
Setup for No rails using x,y data from cad and fiducials

copy and paste your x,y data in a working sample csv file that already has other basic info.   You can also do import but it has to be in a specific format (haven't tried it yet)

uncheck manual in top right corner.  Manual is for absolute values, normally done if you have no x,y data

See picture
1)  For it to work X value(284.93) for Left top  board must be the same as the Left bottom board

I this example picture the align button was used for Left top,  this will cause part placements to be off, do not use the align button
?
To make it work you can not use the align button for top left board.     I typed in the same x value as the bottom board.   I also manually calculated value for y. My boards were 50.8mm high.  so I added 50.8 * 2( for 2 boards) for the y value.   So Left top should be 285.95(same as bottom) , 247.90  (bottom plus board height).   These are absolute values so it will know where to look for the board and check fiducials.

I don't know why they don't simply have you enter board size instead of having to calculate

When doing align for bottom left board it must be the first part in your component list  (you can even create a fake part and select skip and give it location 0,0 then align on bottom left corner of board,  I'm assuming that is where your 0,0 is.   There method may have the advantage if you have no idea where 0,0 is.

At bottom of screen Enter 2 Fiducial values relative to your board 0,0   

I do not see these instructions anywhere.    So a lot of time was wasted before I was able to figure this out on my own.

Finally we got to do a real production run.   

[Smallsmt]

Mike the camera has auto gain but our vision system use Overexposure to receive a bw picture to recognize the shape of the object.

It is very fast and reliable system.

[elmood]

Smallsmt: If you are not talking about the Neoden 4 it might be better to start a new thread.

[Smallsmt]

Sure but I tried to explain how fiducial recognition works!

[thommo]

Elwood
Sorry it took so long, but this is a link to one of the Neoden4 tutorials I referred to earlier - hope it helps. (And yes, don't forget to uncheck the 'manual' button)

[elmood]

Hey thommo:

I had some success last night! I'm now able to export a workable file from my program that loads right into the machine and works with minimal extra setup. The feeders are still a bit of a pain to configure, and I don't have any multi-nozzle optimizations done yet. But I was able to place some parts. There are a few weird things like having to manually start the vibration feeder in the manual setup menu... there's no way for a job to start it by itself. Also, the footprint library contains width, height and thickness for the parts, but I can't figure out what the machine actually does with this data... Neoden says that the height is used to protect the nozzle, but the setting doesn't appear to affect the height setting in the actually feeder config panel.

BTW for those of you testing, I found that putting some spray glue on a blank PCB makes a good tacky surface for trying out placements. I was able to rerun the job many times. Also I really like the step run option to test each part one at a time. Things go so fast that it's somewhat impossible to troubleshoot otherwise. One other kind of strange drawback I ran across is that the downlooking camera cannot see the rearmost feeder locations... getting in there with a flashlight is probably the only way to confirm the correct alignment of the nozzle on the feeder.

Does anyone have suggestions for making reusable trays for larger parts? I want something with a solid bottom on it so I can use it for all different kinds of chips. The black plastic waffle trays are really only good for one size of chip.

I'll post a picture of the very first finished board hopefully by end of week! I know others here already have machines are not that impressed anymore, but it does feel like science fiction having robots building boards in a small shop like mine! 

[mikeselectricstuff]

Also, the footprint library contains width, height and thickness for the parts, but I can't figure out what the machine actually does with this data... Neoden says that the height is used to protect the nozzle, but the setting doesn't appear to affect the height setting in the actually feeder config panel.

Height should be used to offset the pick height from the imaging height for optimum focus, and the placement height.

BTW for those of you testing, I found that putting some spray glue on a blank PCB makes a good tacky surface for trying out placements

A better option is the thin-film double-sided tape, used among other things for tacking carpet down. Just lay it gently over the PCB without pressing down too hard, to make it easier to peel off

[Royce]

I'll post a picture of the very first finished board hopefully by end of week! I know others here already have machines are not that impressed anymore, but it does feel like science fiction having robots building boards in a small shop like mine! 

These reports are really helpful. I'm quite a ways from purchase, but when the times comes, having this type of record online will be invaluable.

[mrpackethead]

For me at least, i think the reports in this thread have pretty much put me off buying a Neoden System,  it just seems there are way too many issues that you have to compensate for.

[sedelman]

@mrpackethead I have come to the same conclusion. What I can distill from this thread is that the machine is mechanically built well, but the software and documentation leave a lot to be desired.

I recently came across the official spec sheet for the Juki KP620/Zevatech PM575 and it lists an assembly reliability of 100 DPM or 100 parts per million placed (99.99%). This is a 15 year old model but somehow I am not convinced this brand new Neoden4 can even come close. Please someone correct me if this sentiment is not deserved.

I would love to hear more about the successes that @TheSteve has had with the Neoden4. As far as I can tell, he is the only one on this thread that actually has the machine working in a production environment. So far, we have only seen carefully choreographed assembly videos from Neoden. It would be great to see an actual panel with multiple PCBs being populated start to finish from an actual end user.

[TankSparks]

From my testing its seem part thickness you enter does not effect pick height or placement height.   The good thing is  the 3mm or 4 mm spring travel in the nozzle seems to do a pretty good job, so I think pick and place height is not very critical.   

[rwb]

@elmwood Thanks for posting up all the pictures of the Neoden 4!

It's great to see so many people have purchased the Neoden 4 machine which means we should have a really good idea of how capable and reliable the machine is in the not so distant future.

Seems that software is not as user friendly as it should be but it's still all new so there is time for improvement.

Everybody please keep the feedback and multimedia coming for all of us who are interested in small scale PCB production 

[mrpackethead]

@elmwood Thanks for posting up all the pictures of the Neoden 4!

Everybody please keep the feedback and multimedia coming for all of us who are interested in small scale PCB production 

I wonder if we should start a thread for a general topic rather than Neoden4 specific?