Neoden 4 pick and place

[Natalia]

Hi.I have troubles with coordinate transformation from my data to machine.Can you send me some video how to do it ?

[mrpackethead]

Well on my quest to procure a pnp machine I've come to china and the first of the rank to look at was the N4.

Really nice folks to talk to and they knew what they were talking about.  They went straight for the hard one and ran a job using 0201s and placed a stack of them on one of those sample pcbs
It auto loaded it found the fiduicals.  Fed parts imaged them and that was that.  So functionally it seemed to do the job.    0402 and some .5mm QFPs all worked and I had a decent look at them
All in all this machine actually performed better than I expected

On the down side they need to tidy up the wiring. There are loops of tiny wire on those peel boxes and I can see those getting caught in load/unload operations.  Also the wiring around the head is messy. It's a shame because is just stands out and makes It look silly. Now granted those peelers all work independently so the take up issues that some other machines have.   The. Feeders them self seem sort of cheap. Esp when for the same price you can get a Yamaha styled machine   

It's def a desktop machine and quite cute. It did rattle around a bit but still placed ok
Build wise it doesn't look as good as the YS machines Which are half the price.   Will be interesting to see another two machines this week and compare

I put the N4 as a real challenger.  I think the N5 ( oops did I spill the beans ) will be another advance and they will def improve on what they deliver on today. Overall I had low expectations and I was pleasantly surprised.

FYI I also showed them this blog and they were surprised at the interest.  Hopefully they will post some more answers

As a company Neoden check out as legit. They have offices in several city's in china and a good nber of agents globally.  Proper export licenses and a registered company.  You should be ok

Well my feet are killing me after a day of slog and tommorrow it's more factroy time.  Hope I can find the railway station I need to get off at!

[mikeselectricstuff]

AFAICS NeoDen only need to do a few things to produce a serious killer machine

Support taller parts
Auto nozzle change
Better feeders (24/32mm, easily swappable )
Some software improvements

Once they get it right, as well as having a machine that suppports low-volume users, higher volume users could consider buying multiple Neoden machines instead of a single machine form the traditional suppliers to give improved flexibility and some redundancy.

[Spikee]

AFAICS NeoDen only need to do a few things to produce a serious killer machine

Support taller parts
Auto nozzle change
Better feeders (24/32mm, easily swappable )
Some software improvements

Once they get it right, as well as having a machine that suppports low-volume users, higher volume users could consider buying multiple Neoden machines instead of a single machine form the traditional suppliers to give improved flexibility and some redundancy.

The TVM920 would fit this envelope? it is about 6.5k and is made by the same people that make the cheap (2.3k euro in china TVM820).
There are several videos on youku.

No conveyor but it uses reel feeders, closed loop stepper (have this on my cnc and it is quite good!) design and looks like is is built quite good.
If the conveyor is a must have I'm sure ther is some kind of company that sells them. Just make a autohotkey script and you can do those things.

http://www.soku.com/search_video/q_tvm920?f=1&kb=040200000000000__tvm92&_rp=1460912858843RUDNu9&_rp=1460912858843RUDNu9
Neoden 4 with conveyor and feeders is around 9-10k euro anyway. For that price you kinda want "real" feeders.

[mikeselectricstuff]

AFAICS NeoDen only need to do a few things to produce a serious killer machine

Support taller parts
Auto nozzle change
Better feeders (24/32mm, easily swappable )
Some software improvements

Once they get it right, as well as having a machine that suppports low-volume users, higher volume users could consider buying multiple Neoden machines instead of a single machine form the traditional suppliers to give improved flexibility and some redundancy.

The TVM920 would fit this envelope? it is about 6.5k and is made by the same people that make the cheap (2.3k euro in china TVM820).
There are several videos on youku.

No conveyor but it uses reel feeders, closed loop stepper (have this on my cnc and it is quite good!) design and looks like is is built quite good.
If the conveyor is a must have I'm sure ther is some kind of company that sells them. Just make a autohotkey script and you can do those things.

http://www.soku.com/search_video/q_tvm920?f=1&kb=040200000000000__tvm92&_rp=1460912858843RUDNu9&_rp=1460912858843RUDNu9
Neoden 4 with conveyor and feeders is around 9-10k euro anyway. For that price you kinda want "real" feeders.

The main thing about the conveyor is it allows you to do longer boards automatically, though I wouldn't be surprised if the software support for this isn't ideal - it ought to be possible to give it one file with all parts and fids, and it should split it into the required sections and handle sequencing ( including prompting for nozzle changes).
 

[Spikee]

So what they really need to do is add some script running ability or even better just convert it to openpnp or something like that.
Since automatic nozzle change and those things is really easy with those JUKI nozzles can be done really easy.

[AaiRIz]

Hello Friends, I read the threads and find one major problem with N4 about it's feeders. So, I have one question about feeders. That, Can we place original Yamaha Feeders into N4? Is it possible? And if it is possible then can anyone provide the price for original Yamaha or Other best feeder's price (8mm, 12mm, 16mm) ??

Thanks,
-Rahul

[Kjelt]

Since automatic nozzle change and those things is really easy with those JUKI nozzles can be done really easy.

Do you need a special holder/adapter for this? Can you give an example or link to such autochange nozzle holder?

[mrpackethead]

Hello Friends, I read the threads and find one major problem with N4 about it's feeders. So, I have one question about feeders. That, Can we place original Yamaha Feeders into N4? Is it possible? And if it is possible then can anyone provide the price for original Yamaha or Other best feeder's price (8mm, 12mm, 16mm) ??

Thanks,
-Rahul

I'm not saying its impossible, but it would be a *LOT* of work.  The N4's feeders are electric, the Yamaha are pneumatic.  The N4's are much smaller.. It would require a *LOT* of messing around.

[Spikee]

Since automatic nozzle change and those things is really easy with those JUKI nozzles can be done really easy.

Do you need a special holder/adapter for this? Can you give an example or link to such autochange nozzle holder?

Just have a stationary object that goes on top op the plastic ring on the JUKI nozzle, and pull the pnp head up.
If this is not possible than a stationary object with a bit of a incline is needed so it pull's itself off.

[Kjelt]

Sorry  don't understand I have not an example of this mechanism can you explain in more detail?
If you look at the connection it is something similar to pressure connectors probably with rubber rings against leakage. And the eject mechanism is probably something similar as with pressure connectors or garden hose connectors that you have to mechanically pull the ring up in order to release the connector (nozzle)
So as far as I understand the holder of the nozzle needs some sort of electronic and mechanical mechanism to eject the nozzle (release) and to lock the new nozzle.
Or if the holder has a seperate second vaccuum tube connection to hold the nozzle with vacuum than there is a need for an extra controlled vaccuum valve.
Or does it not work like this? 

[Spikee]

Like this:

[H.O]

A couple of guys on the OpenPNP user group have reverse engineered the JUKI nozzle holder. Its principle is very similar to pneumatic/hydraulic quick connects. There's a springloaded ring holding the balls in place, this ring has to be pulled back for the nozzle to eject. Here's a link to the thread.

The Samsung CP45 nozzles (which I believe is what is being used on the N4) works in a similar manner but here the balls retaining the nozzle in the holder is held in place by rubber band instead of the metal ring so the nozzles snap in and out out of the holder with a little bit of force (not much is needed).

[AaiRIz]

I'm not saying its impossible, but it would be a *LOT* of work.  The N4's feeders are electric, the Yamaha are pneumatic.  The N4's are much smaller.. It would require a *LOT* of messing around.

Thanks for the ans.,
But, My main purpose of the question was, about changing to a similar type branded feeders. So we can directly switch to a branded and reliable one....... Is it possible ?? Any other good brand was making this electrical type reliable feeders ?

[Kjelt]

Like this: 

A great a picture shows more then thousands words  Thanks, so the coupling detaches easily (auto)mechanically with a vertical pull force and attaches with a push force. Nice. Should be easy doable.

[H.O]

It's pretty clear that the nozzles in the video above, linked to by Spikee is using magnets to be held in place on the shaft, you can see the nozzle "jump" as the motorshaft moves down into the nozzle. The JUKI nozzles pictured earlier does, to my knowledge and as I wrote earlier, not release by simply pulling on them.

[ar__systems]

It's pretty clear that the nozzles in the video above, linked to by Spikee is using magnets to be held in place on the shaft, you can see the nozzle "jump" as the motorshaft moves down into the nozzle.

Second that.

The JUKI nozzles pictured earlier does, to my knowledge and as I wrote earlier, not release by simply pulling on them.

That depends on how the receiving end is implemented. For example on TVM802B, which uses JUKI nozzles that are on the right, there is no locking of any kind. The nozzles can be just pulled out. They are only held in place by friction created by the o-ring that goes into the little groove.

[mrpackethead]

I'm not saying its impossible, but it would be a *LOT* of work.  The N4's feeders are electric, the Yamaha are pneumatic.  The N4's are much smaller.. It would require a *LOT* of messing around.

Thanks for the ans.,
But, My main purpose of the question was, about changing to a similar type branded feeders. So we can directly switch to a branded and reliable one....... Is it possible ?? Any other good brand was making this electrical type reliable feeders ?

The QiHe920 machine uses Yamaha CL feeders...  THe electric ones are much more expensive and hoenstly on a machine like a N4, there is no issue with using the pneumatic.

[TheSteve]

We haven't used our machine for a few weeks. Built 10 panels today, ~ 5000 parts and it was pretty smooth. I believe the machine did drop one 0603 resistor, or it stayed on the nozzle and then fell off. We are slowly increasing the speed, running it at 60% now. Also further tweaking the feeders for smoother operation.

[TankSparks]

Neoden 4 with LED strip lights installed.  Very helpful to see and doesn't effect camera.

[timbo73]

Nice! Where did you put the strips?

[TheSteve]

They run down both sides attached to the metal frame and there is a strip that runs across the plastic cover just behind the hinge.

[GPA611]

Neoden 4 with LED strip lights installed.  Very helpful to see and doesn't effect camera.

  It looks fantastic! Can you provide some more pictures of the details?   

[timbo73]

Well on my quest to procure a pnp machine I've come to china and the first of the rank to look at was the N4.

Any hint when "neoden 5" might arrive? And how did the other vendors check out?

[timbo73]

Full disclosure: I am the author of OpenPnP.

If ya'll are serious about retrofitting a Neoden 4 with new software, please check out OpenPnP. OpenPnP is a working, Open Source pick and place platform that can be used for nearly any machine.

I don't know of anyone who has done a Neoden 4 retro fit with it yet, but others have done TM-240 (older Neoden machine) retros. We also recently have a Zevatech retrofit and there are numerous examples of people DIYing their own machines with OpenPnP.

Now, OpenPnP doesn't have all the features that the N4 software currently has - the biggest two being bottom vision and conveyer support. Bottom vision is my current focus and will be the next major feature release. Conveyer support is on the list but pretty far down, since few people (in the area OpenPnP usually serves) need it.

Anyway, I thought I'd mention it because there's really no need to develop a new solution from scratch. OpenPnP has a completely modular model for machines and it can be adapted to run nearly anything. I personally think the N4 is a great candidate for a retro fit. It's an incredible hardware platform but it really needs better software to make it shine.

So, if anyone would like to talk about doing a retrofit of this machine with OpenPnP, please come check us out! We have an active mailing list and IRC channel which you can find at http://openpnp.org/. I will personally devote time and resources to helping make it happen.

Hi Jason,

I'm close to pulling the trigger on the neoden 4 (though wondering if neoden 5 is worth the wait, given feeder issues). If I do, are you still interested in checking one out in the flesh, with the goal of getting it to run openPNP? We won't be running it much over the summer, so if you have the time, we have the place

Tim.