Neoden 4 pick and place

[JohnT]

I'm thinking of purchasing Neoden 4 for low volume inhouse manufacturing but have zero experience working with PNP machines. This thread has been awesome at answering a lot of questions and overall adding to my understanding of what is involved.

One question that I'm having difficulty answering is regarding footprints that may not be available in the 'Footprint Library' (see attached image). An example footprint might be an SD card holder or USB micro B connector. This would be the footprint used by the imaging algorithm to locate the center and rotation offsets of the currently picked part. How does one go about setting up a custom footprint? Is a foot print necessary even? Any advice and/or input would be helpful.

Thanks,

~John

[mrpackethead]

If you follow teh paypal link it goes to yet another name, which has no reference to SmallSMT in it...

@ICHAN

SmallSMT machine looks good but no real user so far reporting their experience, and reading the other thread - sending money to a personal account in china is a big NO to me.

You can use paypal too!
And real user reports are on our website.

How did you pay your NEODEN machine?

This was my Payment for my TM240A Neoden machine in 2013!
Looks like a personal account in China !?!

"PAYMENT: Bank Wire Transfer
SWIFT Code: ABOCCNBJ110
Bank account number: 6228480323024499713
Bank name: AGRICULTURAL BANK OF CHINA,ZHEJIANG BR.
Beneficiary's address: No. 11, Xiyuan eight road, West Lake science and Technology Park, San Dun, Hangzhou
Receiver name: Weng Guofu (?
Phone Number: 13958891178"                              

Best regards
Michael

[mikeselectricstuff]

I'm thinking of purchasing Neoden 4 for low volume inhouse manufacturing but have zero experience working with PNP machines. This thread has been awesome at answering a lot of questions and overall adding to my understanding of what is involved.

One question that I'm having difficulty answering is regarding footprints that may not be available in the 'Footprint Library' (see attached image). An example footprint might be an SD card holder or USB micro B connector. This would be the footprint used by the imaging algorithm to locate the center and rotation offsets of the currently picked part. How does one go about setting up a custom footprint? Is a foot print necessary even? Any advice and/or input would be helpful.

Thanks,

~John

Don't know about N4 specifically, but P&P vision generally only cares about a few simple parameters like part X/Y size for vision, height (for vision focus  and placement height) and a few other things like nozzle type and speed.
Vision will typically just use the overall outline and not need to know about individual pad locations, though oddball parts may need some tweaking. 

[JohnT]

Don't know about N4 specifically, but P&P vision generally only cares about a few simple parameters like part X/Y size for vision, height (for vision focus  and placement height) and a few other things like nozzle type and speed.
Vision will typically just use the overall outline and not need to know about individual pad locations, though oddball parts may need some tweaking.

That method seems to make perfect sense and I’d be surprised if the N4 designers deviated too much from the typical implementations. Even non-rectangular footprints (ex. SOT-23-3) could be best fit into a rectangle. Thanks for your help.

Out of pure curiosity it would be nice to see exactly what's inside the N4 Footprint Library file(s). At this point my guess is that it’s a CSV with all the parameters that you mentioned. If anyone on this thread has access to the files, please share. Either an example file, a screen capture or a cut/paste.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Don't know about N4 specifically, but P&P vision generally only cares about a few simple parameters like part X/Y size for vision, height (for vision focus  and placement height) and a few other things like nozzle type and speed.
Vision will typically just use the overall outline and not need to know about individual pad locations, though oddball parts may need some tweaking.

That method seems to make perfect sense and I’d be surprised if the N4 designers deviated too much from the typical implementations. Even non-rectangular footprints (ex. SOT-23-3) could be best fit into a rectangle. Thanks for your help.

Out of pure curiosity it would be nice to see exactly what's inside the N4 Footprint Library file(s). At this point my guess is that it’s a CSV with all the parameters that you mentioned. If anyone on this thread has access to the files, please share. Either an example file, a screen capture or a cut/paste.

SO23-3 is a bit of an oddball - as the body is black you tend to image just the pads, but triangular outlines can be harder to interpret correctly for rotation than rectangular ones - these are parts that are more likely to need tweaking for reliable placement

[GPA611]

Hello guys,

As another (proud) owner of Neoden4 I would like to share my experiences from this machine as this is the main goal of this thread.
We got the machine in February, 2016. Since then we have a few hundreds of PCBs already populated on it. Because this is our first machine I can’t compare it to any similar product but it looks suitable for the needs of our business – which is quite a niche one and the quantities are in the range of 5-10 boards up to 100-200 per order.
The problems we faced so far with ND4 are the following:
-   Initially, after the installation we detected that two of the feeders don’t work – after opening them we found that the problem with the first one was mechanical – simply the upper part of the motor wasn’t put properly and there was a friction b/w both parts. With the second one there was a cable problem.
-   After couple of weeks of exploitation two of the nozzles stopped working – by consulting with Neoden the problem was located in the control board which is on the top of the nozzle-head. It seems that the step-motor driver for this side was gone. We got very quickly a replacement of this board and the problem was solved. However we had some period when the machine was operating only with two of the nozzles – a little slower but still functional.
-   Another issue we faced during the installation of few extra feeders which were purchased recently. All of them were supposed to come with address #50, however some of them came with different addresses (like 2,7,8.. etc.) which cost us some time to figure out what is going on. Talking to Neoden they told me that each feeder should come with a label with its address however our feeders were w/o such labels. So we need to ‘discover’ the address of each of them.

One point I can’t find in this thread – this is about the maintenance of the machine. I understand that just cleaning the axis from dust and putting some oil on them regularly is enough. Are there any other actions that need to be done? 


BR,
George

[Ichan]

About footprint, i don't really know how and when exactly the footprint definition used sometimes i just left it empty and got no proplem.




The footprint definition itself is only the rectangular boundary and thickness of the component.




Some people asking me about the price detail of the machine, for that just see it on their aliexpress store:

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/group/NeoDen4/231675_504814084.html

I was  quoted the same prices as on that store.

-ichan

[mikeselectricstuff]

Talking to Neoden they told me that each feeder should come with a label with its address however our feeders were w/o such labels. So we need to ‘discover’ the address of each of them.

Can the end-user program the address of a feeder?

[Ice-Tea]

I was  quoted the same prices as on that store.

-ichan

What about feeders?

[wraper]

What about feeders?

Neoden4 automatic pick & place system with vision, special version with
conveyor for pcb, incl built-in pc with monitor, keyboard and mouse, preinstalled
software, 5-lane vibratory stick feeder (2x8, 1x14, 2x16 pin SO), tray
holder, 8 tape feeders (5x8, 2x12, 1x16 mm tape) and pedestal

Accessories
NEODEN4-8 Tape Feeder 8mm 70,00
NEODEN4-12 Tape Feeder 12mm 80,00
NEODEN4-16 Tape Feeder 16mm 90,00
NEODEN4-24 Tape Feeder 24mm - available on request

Prices in EUR ex VAT from neodentech.eu

[Ice-Tea]

Heh... Was looking there yesterday, never found it or saw it. Thanks!

[GPA611]

Talking to Neoden they told me that each feeder should come with a label with its address however our feeders were w/o such labels. So we need to ‘discover’ the address of each of them.

Can the end-user program the address of a feeder?

Yes, quite easily from the GUI –> System Setup -> Modify Feed ID  and then a dialog window appear where can be specified the new feeder address.
So it turns that the feeders itself contain their address where the feeder-connectors are equal. This means that feeder #1 can be connected to a connector in the middle of the row and it will respond again. Even more if you have two feeders with the same address connected – both of them respond 

BR,
George

[mrpackethead]

That seems pretty spendy.. You can pick up 8mm Yamaha CL feeders or about $60.00.  they are not genuine yamaha feeders but pretty good and seem reliable.

What about feeders?

Neoden4 automatic pick & place system with vision, special version with
conveyor for pcb, incl built-in pc with monitor, keyboard and mouse, preinstalled
software, 5-lane vibratory stick feeder (2x8, 1x14, 2x16 pin SO), tray
holder, 8 tape feeders (5x8, 2x12, 1x16 mm tape) and pedestal

Accessories
NEODEN4-8 Tape Feeder 8mm 70,00
NEODEN4-12 Tape Feeder 12mm 80,00
NEODEN4-16 Tape Feeder 16mm 90,00
NEODEN4-24 Tape Feeder 24mm - available on request

Prices in EUR ex VAT from neodentech.eu

[wraper]

Heh... Was looking there yesterday, never found it or saw it. Thanks!

That from a quote I received from them.

[Ichan]

What about feeders?

There feeder prices on the store link i mentioned before, easy to find if you sort it by price ascending, like picture below.

That seems pretty spendy.. You can pick up 8mm Yamaha CL feeders or about $60.00.  they are not genuine yamaha feeders but pretty good and seem reliable.

Remember that Yamaha CL feeder is simple pneumatic feeder, no motor, no electronics - should be low in cost but will need external air compressor.

-ichan

[JohnT]

The footprint definition itself is only the rectangular boundary and thickness of the component.



-ichan

Thanks for posting the image. Was the Footprint List displayed when the 'Footprint Library' button was pressed? Can the existing footprints be edited, and more importantly, can new custom footprints be added to the list?

Funny how alignment continues to work well even though the feeder footprint definition is left blank. Perhaps for rectangular parts the length and width are determined dynamically (based on the captured part image) if a footprint definition has not been selected. I'd be concerned that alignment may become temperamental at times without an assignment.

~John

[mikeselectricstuff]

Funny how alignment continues to work well even though the feeder footprint definition is left blank. Perhaps for rectangular parts the length and width are determined dynamically (based on the captured part image) if a footprint definition has not been selected. I'd be concerned that alignment may become temperamental at times without an assignment.

All you need for alignment is centre and rotation. Size will be used for things like rejecting out-of-tolerance sizes (usually a mis-pick), and deciding if a part can be imaged in one shot or needs multiple offset views to make up the whole image.
Height/thickness is more important, for placement height and also vision focus position.

[JohnT]

All you need for alignment is centre and rotation. Size will be used for things like rejecting out-of-tolerance sizes (usually a mis-pick), and deciding if a part can be imaged in one shot or needs multiple offset views to make up the whole image.
Height/thickness is more important, for placement height and also vision focus position.

Ah, this is all beginning to make sense. Part boundaries are found using image processing techniques (thresholding etc.), one or more edges are best-fit to a line for use in rotational alignment and the centre is found perhaps as the average x,y of the part boundaries. The secret recipe of how all of this has been implemented in software is irrelevant for the end user, what matters is the outcome and the iterative tweaks we make to get proper centring based on those outcomes.

There is a SMT micro B USB port in my design that may fit into the oddball category. By tweaking the part height I'd expect the centre to be found reliably (if the above spiel is correct) but rotational offset may prove tricky as the part outline (see link to part drawing below, with flange) deviates from a rectangular outline. I'd likely initially set the part height so as to focus on the PCB-part interface plane and see how things turn out. Have you had experience PNPing these types of parts? Any advice/cautions would be helpful.

Link to part drawing: http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/154/10118192-793027.pdf

[mikeselectricstuff]

Any tweaks will be very machine specific,so it will be trial and error. Over time you will get to know how to deal with oddities

[timbo73]

Another newbie question:

what's the reason why these low-end-but-machine-vision-supported PnP machines with ~50um resolution steppers w encoders typically don't claim to be able to  place parts with 0.35mm pitch pads? If it's not due to XY accuracy, presumably it's the place head that cannot drop the part consistently, or is it something else?

Thanks!

[alexanderbrevig]

I'm a newbie too at this but I will hazard a guess and say that it has to do with repeat-ability and margins of error. If you say you can place 0.35mm pitch then you must be able to do it, each time - every time. Maybe call it a clearance? They could probably get the machine to place a 0.35mm pitch part for a demo, but I'm glad they don't advertise it until it is reliable.

BTW; Mike, as a viewer of your channel - may I suggest that you share your experiences with PnP machines? What statistics are important (parts per hour, or percentage error or number of feeders etc). A beginners guide to pick and place is something I'm sure at least ten of us would watch Full disclosure: I am in the market for one...hehe
I know you have some videos that touch on the subject and I've seen them all more than once 

[ar__systems]

They actually have 25-30um resolution, and pretty good repeatability. But there are other factors that degrade reliability of placement. First of all, accuracy of visual system might not be sufficient for smaller pitches. Second, the vibration causes parts to drift about while on the nozzle, and by the time it travels from camera to the destination it can be no longer aligned properly.

[timbo73]

They actually have 25-30um resolution, and pretty good repeatability. But there are other factors that degrade reliability of placement. First of all, accuracy of visual system might not be sufficient for smaller pitches. Second, the vibration causes parts to drift about while on the nozzle, and by the time it travels from camera to the destination it can be no longer aligned properly.

OK, thanks. I figured it must be the nozzle/z-travel related. For neoden 4, I don't see how camera accuracy could be a factor, otherwise it would be useless at aligning 0201s etc.

Cheers, Tim.

[mikeselectricstuff]

For fine pitch parts, rotation step size becomes an issue as it needs to have enough resolution to rotate the largest part by a small enough fraction of the pitch at the outer edge

[Ichan]

Thanks for posting the image. Was the Footprint List displayed when the 'Footprint Library' button was pressed? Can the existing footprints be edited, and more importantly, can new custom footprints be added to the list?

Funny how alignment continues to work well even though the feeder footprint definition is left blank. Perhaps for rectangular parts the length and width are determined dynamically (based on the captured part image) if a footprint definition has not been selected. I'd be concerned that alignment may become temperamental at times without an assignment.

YES for all three questions.

My best guess is the footprint boundary definition helps the image recognition processing not to calculate the whole image, just limited to the boundaries.

I got new software by email from Tony, will try it today.

-ichan