Surely it counts for 'something' TheSteve.
It illustrates that it can successfully pick the component
Determine its alignment on the head, and modify to 'zero'
Rotate it as required
and finally,
Place it in the desired position on the board
Agree that it says nothing for the placement pressure, or component's paste displacement, but surely it's a big achievement just getting this far. Those factors are largely handed over to the quality of the stencil and paste applicator.
Have you guys tried placing any 0201's yourself yet?
What is the finest component that you've tried to date TheSteve?
I don't think placing them on double sided tape really counts for anything.
There's one video from Neoden here:
...placing 0201's, albeit on double sided tape.
Pity they couldn't be bothered to get a decent photo...
Pity they couldn't be bothered to get a decent photo...
I love the loose screw rolling around.
We use mainly 0603 and don't have plans to go smaller. Without an independent Z speed adjustment anything smaller will take forever as you'll need to also slow the pick and X/Y. The machine is anything but gentle when placing parts otherwise. Even with 0603 sized parts it's very easy to see the difference between paste and tape. So having used the machine I still think them showing 0201 with tape doesn't really count.
0603 used to seem small. and then 0402 did.. and then ...
0603 used to seem small. and then 0402 did.. and then ...
No kidding. The margins are so small now. I have been moving toward smaller and smaller parts and each move requires some learning on the assembly side. They all look big in CAD on my 30" monitor. In assembly it looks like dust.
@TheSteve - do you mean that the Neoden4 does not appear to implement S-Curve deceleration to minimize jerk in the head movements? I would imagine that if they didn't implement some form of this the simple stand that they provide would not be sufficient to prevent the machine from shaking heavily and walking all over the room when running at full speed.
@TheSteve - do you mean that the Neoden4 does not appear to implement S-Curve deceleration to minimize jerk in the head movements? I would imagine that if they didn't implement some form of this the simple stand that they provide would not be sufficient to prevent the machine from shaking heavily and walking all over the room when running at full speed.
At full speed I am sure the machine can easily move itself around. What I am saying(and that has been said before) is that the X/Y/Z speeds are all set by a single parameter. So if you want it to place a part at a slower speed you have to slow down all aspects of the placement for that component, which includes the X/Y speed and the pick speed.
We finished the job today, the machine do about 300 panel (1200 board) while the rest 4800 board done by the other machine (for almost two months). The last three days we run the machine for about 12 hours/day in 8+4 hours overtime with 2 hours off time in between.
Two days ago the machine suddenly stops and hung in the middle of the work, restarting the machine giving an error "camera initialization failed" - found the bottom camera connector dislodged, perhaps caused by vibration, everything back to work after reconnecting it.
After running this machine for about 1 week, i can say that the machine is very much worth it for the money spent. First thing that need to be improved on this machine is not the software, but the feeders - they spits many chips daily! (please do not ask the percentage as i do not have numbers in detail).
I have a simple 100 board job to do, will gonna play with the feeders on this job.
-ichan
Ichan what speed were you using... 60% or faster?
I had a 12mm feeder with parts jumping out, it was ok after switching feeder, 99% sure the problem was with the peel box, but did not switch one at a time to verify if it was feeder or peel box
TankSparks, i use feeder speed 100% for all 1206 and 50% for the others, general speed setting is on 100%. The machine shaking a little.
The last job is time constrained, i have to run the machine as fast as possible no time to try to switch feeders - i let the spitted parts handled manually.
Problems with feeders i found, started from the most happen:
1. Spitted parts. Mostly on thick 8mm plastic tape where the white plastic base need to be removed to accomodate the thick tapes. SOT23 in plastic tape is thin enough, no need to remove the base - but they also spitted frequently, seems the bang-bang action of the peeler is the cause (i never like picking SOT23). Happen also on wider plastic tape (ic) but can be reduced by using some weight tension.
2. Mylar cover not peeled. Most of the time because the mylar shifted to the left (never found to the right) on the peel box plastic gear.
3. Tape does not feed. Only one cause, blocked reel.
What "strength" values that you use?
-ichan
TankSparks, also what values that you use for pick and place "delay"? What units are they, milisecond?
-ichan
Just what percentage of parts are placed properly at the speed you're running?
We had no problems with the sot23 transistors.
Feeder strength 50, peel strength 80,
pick delay 30 and place delay 30, it appears to be milliseconds. I set it to 500 for testing and looked like 1/2 a second.
How is everything in planet Neoden? Everything going well.
Too well lastly, 100 simple board in 15 board panel finished in a blink of eye, which make me missed to take any photo or video of it...
Slowing the machine down and put some delay on picking surely calm down the feeders.
Still can not found my CAN Analyser tool, will Saleae works too sniff CAN bus?
-ichan
For those running the machine on 120 VAC the fuse in the IEC socket should be 5 amps. Our fuse blew as they shipped our unit with the 220 VAC fuse which is 3 amps.
Re CAN: IIRC, CAN analyzer is in Saleae SW. Just try it wirh a 5$ Saleae clone, thereis nothing to lose
Hello Friends,
1st post in This EEvblog. read almost all the discussion in N4 PNP machine. we are thinking to buy the PNP machine for startup. I do not a familiar with the PNP machines because do not work on any PNP before.
I want to ask to MR.
@ICHAN & @TheSteve about N4 PNP machine. That, Can you prefer me about buying this machine? or you prefer any other PNP ? your answer was great help to me for buying my 1st PNP.
Thanks.
Hello AaiRIz!
It will be very difficult if there is no previous experience. A lot of time will be spent in vain. You must pass the practice and study for a while. Or have a specialist who will do the training. N4 has a lot of ignoring industry standards and feature innovative solutions and restrictions. It also needs to want to examine and apply.
I bought Microchip CAN Analyser about a year ago, hasn't use it yet and now it is hidding from me
.
I have Saleae Logic Pro 8 on my bench, will try it soon. The objective is to find how to command the feeder so i can use it on the other machine.
-ichan
I want to ask to MR. @ICHAN & @TheSteve about N4 PNP machine. That, Can you prefer me about buying this machine? or you prefer any other PNP ? your answer was great help to me for buying my 1st PNP.
The short answer is YES.
If you do (or plan to) do a small assembly business then Neoden 4 is the right choice, mine already pay itself for about 25% of it's own cost only in 3 weeks.
If you only do your own prototype and have limited budget then i think QIHE TVM802A/B will fit better.
SmallSMT machine looks good but no real user so far reporting their experience, and reading the other thread - sending money to a personal account in china is a big NO to me.
Charmhigh is a new player, they usually on hobby cnc router business.
QIHE TVM920 may become the nearest competitor of Neoden 4, but seems at $6500 no feeders included will mean the price can be higher then N4 and without conveyor.
Borey Tech machines are interesting but limited information out there.
-ichan
@ICHAN
SmallSMT machine looks good but no real user so far reporting their experience, and reading the other thread - sending money to a personal account in china is a big NO to me.
You can use paypal too!
And real user reports are on our website.
How did you pay your NEODEN machine?
This was my Payment for my TM240A Neoden machine in 2013!
Looks like a personal account in China !?!
"PAYMENT: Bank Wire Transfer
SWIFT Code: ABOCCNBJ110
Bank account number: 6228480323024499713
Bank name: AGRICULTURAL BANK OF CHINA,ZHEJIANG BR.
Beneficiary's address: No. 11, Xiyuan eight road, West Lake science and Technology Park, San Dun, Hangzhou
Receiver name: Weng Guofu (
?
Phone Number: 13958891178"
Best regards
Michael
How did you pay your NEODEN machine?
Attached is the bank info part of the Proforma Invoice of the machine purchase.
Michael, you should register a company account soon, for your own good - not only me who says NO, since the last two years our central bank will reject any bank wire transfer to a personal account in China. Guess why...
-ichan