-
You can't just change the plug out on the pdu that you have, you would have to completely change out all of the breakers and switching elements in side of it. Because it has to provide protection on both lines, not just one.
Changing the plug was talked about way back when everybody thought you had some mystery load.
A power distribution unit cannot be treated the same as a load, because it provides switching and protection.
As far as the multiple pdus goes you should have both of them running at the same time fed from different circuits obviously.
And then all of your servers that have redundant power supplies hook up one power supply plug into pdu number one and the other power supply plugged into pdu number two.
That way even if 1 pdu goes down completely your servers will still be running off the other pdu, as opposed to everything shutting down and you having to manually move things over.
Sent from my Moto x4 using Tapatalk
-
There are reasons we need this PDU that I'd rather not go into. Originally, we wanted a switched AND metered one, but HPE said they didn't make one that would work with our power supply.
If HPE say that, they are saying they don't have a model that works in North America. That seems unlikely.QuoteI'm wondering though, now that we know they make mistakes, do any of you guys see a Switched AND metered horizontal 2U PDU that will work with my 120-0-120 split phase?
You don't have a 120-0-120 split phase supply. You have a 240 V single phase supply.
Any PDU designed for the North American market that handles a 200-240 V AC single phase supply will work in your situation.
-
240v single phase North American.
That last bit is important when you're looking for stuff so you don't find something like you already have that's intended for Europe.
Sent from my Moto x4 using Tapatalk
-
You can't just change the plug out on the pdu that you have, you would have to completely change out all of the breakers and switching elements in side of it. Because it has to provide protection on both lines, not just one.
Yes, we are aware of this. If it comes down to it though, we have some people on another forum, a real nice one, that are very knowledgeable and can help us modify it. We are in fact discussing it there now, preparing, in case we do need to modify the PDU. Trying to find the breakers that are used now, the proper breakers that will work, etc. We can come close by physically matching the pics, but in the end, we'd need to crack her open and void the warranty to be certain. And there's no sense doing that if we can send it back.
Changing the plug was talked about way back when everybody thought you had some mystery load.
A power distribution unit cannot be treated the same as a load, because it provides switching and protection.As far as the multiple pdus goes you should have both of them running at the same time fed from different circuits obviously.
I wasn't thinking like that, but that's a great idea and we'll do that. Our servers, and the switch all have redundant PSUs. The rest doesn't. The servers and switch are important though, out of most of the equipment.
And then all of your servers that have redundant power supplies hook up one power supply plug into pdu number one and the other power supply plugged into pdu number two.
That way even if 1 pdu goes down completely your servers will still be running off the other pdu, as opposed to everything shutting down and you having to manually move things over.
Sent from my Moto x4 using Tapatalk -
There are reasons we need this PDU that I'd rather not go into. Originally, we wanted a switched AND metered one, but HPE said they didn't make one that would work with our power supply.
If HPE say that, they are saying they don't have a model that works in North America. That seems unlikely.QuoteI'm wondering though, now that we know they make mistakes, do any of you guys see a Switched AND metered horizontal 2U PDU that will work with my 120-0-120 split phase?
You don't have a 120-0-120 split phase supply. You have a 240 V single phase supply.
Any PDU designed for the North American market that handles a 200-240 V AC single phase supply will work in your situation.
Would you like to help me try and find a Switched and Metered one that can handle a similar load or higher than the P9S13A's I was going to purchase? The G2 series. I don't think it was just a 3-phase thing, I think another issue was they were vertical and they didn't make one for our 36-unit one. I really want to stick with the horizontal one, but if it came down to it, I would go for a vertical one, so long as it was for a 36-unit rack, not smaller. If it gave us the Switched and Metered functionality, I'd be okay. I couldn't just now, but I still haven't finished looking. I was looking here:
https://www.hpe.com/us/en/product-catalog/servers/power-distribution-units/pip.models.power-distribution-units.1009830118.html -
240v single phase North American.
That last bit is important when you're looking for stuff so you don't find something like you already have that's intended for Europe.
Sent from my Moto x4 using Tapatalk
See, I see things like 208V NA/JP with an L6-30P . That's gotta be a typo. It's single-phase. That must be a 240VAC North American one. But load capacity is only 5KVA. We're already over that. I don't remember what it was tallied up to, but I can find it real quick. Without the BGA rework station (4800 watts), we're at 12,319 watts total, assuming everything's on at once, which it would never be. So we could subtract some of that and we estimated around 6,360 watts. -
208v single phase is a valid voltage in the US. In a commercial environment with a 3-phase Supply that is what you would get Line to Line.
But since it is not using all three lines, it is not a three-phase device.
Therefore it is a single phase device.
Sent from my Moto x4 using Tapatalk
-
208v single phase is a valid voltage in the US. In a commercial environment with a 3-phase Supply that is what you would get Line to Line.
But since it is not using all three lines, it is not a three-phase device.
Therefore it is a single phase device.
Sent from my Moto x4 using Tapatalk
Yes, it's single-phase. So is it a typo? I know 208VAC is a valid option in the US, but I thought that was only for three-phase, not single-phase.
I wish we could do the Intelligent PDUs, but they don't offer something we need. Which really sucks, and leaves us back with the switched, metered, or switched and metered. The only things I can find for Switched and Metered are horizontal, and the only one I see provides less than 5KVA capacity.... -
It looks like the P9S15A is the only single phase option for switched and metered, and it is vertical mounting. It also only says on the specifications "200-208 V input". It doesn't say "200-240 V input". I do not know if 240 V would be a problem for it. HPE technical consultants would have to tell you the answer to that. If you talk to a salesperson they are likely to cover their ass and say "no"...
-
You're only going to get 208 volts with a 3-phase Supply coming into the building.
But just because you have three phase doesn't mean every single device you have has to be three phase.
If something is only using two lines, and NOT all 3, then it is not called a three-phase device, it would be a single phase device.
Yes I know it's weird that even though there are two lines and if there was a third it would be called 3-phase so you would think it would be called two-phase, but no.
Sent from my Moto x4 using Tapatalk
-
See, I see things like 208V NA/JP with an L6-30P . That's gotta be a typo. It's single-phase. That must be a 240VAC North American one. But load capacity is only 5KVA. We're already over that.
Why has it got to be a typo? I don't follow.
About the 5 kVA, that's a North American constraint, governed by the NEC.
If you have a 30 amp circuit the maximum continuous load permitted by the breaker and by the L6-30P is 24 amps. Now 208 V times 24 A is 5 kVA. That's the limit on one circuit, and since you would want one PDU per circuit, that's the limit on one PDU. (Since you have a 240 V supply the limit goes up to 5.7 kVA, but that's still your limit.)
So if your total system load is more than 5 kVA or so, then you need two or more 30 A circuits, and two or more PDUs. That's not only for redundancy, it is also an outcome of the National Electrical Code.
In summary, you can't put 7 or 8 kVA on one PDU, and neither would you want to.
-
It looks like the P9S15A is the only single phase option for switched and metered, and it is vertical mounting. It also only says on the specifications "200-208 V input". It doesn't say "200-240 V input". I do not know if 240 V would be a problem for it. HPE technical consultants would have to tell you the answer to that. If you talk to a salesperson they are likely to cover their ass and say "no"...
Yes, but even the tech people I talk to say no, it's only for 208VAC. So it's listed as Single-Phase. Is it possible in the US to get single phase 208VAC? The tech documents for that PDU give the specs at what voltages it runs at and I think the max where 220VAC, so I don't think it's a typo there. Don't quote me on the tech documents. I'll have to check, but I got one of those co-workers here now and I gotta go and have him double check some of my work. I'll be back later though. -
See, I see things like 208V NA/JP with an L6-30P . That's gotta be a typo. It's single-phase. That must be a 240VAC North American one. But load capacity is only 5KVA. We're already over that.
Why has it got to be a typo? I don't follow.
About the 5 kVA, that's a North American constraint, governed by the NEC.
If you have a 30 amp circuit the maximum continuous load permitted by the breaker and by the L6-30P is 24 amps. Now 208 V times 24 A is 5 kVA. That's the limit on one circuit, and since you would want one PDU per circuit, that's the limit on one PDU. (Since you have a 240 V supply the limit goes up to 5.7 kVA, but that's still your limit.)
So if your total system load is more than 5 kVA or so, then you need two or more 30 A circuits, and two or more PDUs. That's not only for redundancy, it is also an outcome of the National Electrical Code.
In summary, you can't put 7 or 8 kVA on one PDU, and neither would you want to.
The typo thing was a mistake by me. I didn't realize you didn't have to use all three-phases with three phase, so there's still stuff I'm learning about AC, which is good. Well, this really sucks then, because I'm going to have to spend a lot of the cash I just made on 5KVA Switched PDUs. Enough to cover my load, and then enough for redundancy <sigh>. Maybe modifying the current PDU would be the better way to go. A lot of work, I know, and it'd void warranty, but that just might be the best way to go about it.
I really gotta go though. I'll be back later. -
Yes, but even the tech people I talk to say no, it's only for 208VAC. So it's listed as Single-Phase. Is it possible in the US to get single phase 208VAC?
Yes, 208 V AC single phase is a standard supply voltage in commercial premises.Maybe modifying the current PDU would be the better way to go. A lot of work, I know, and it'd void warranty, but that just might be the best way to go about it.
Bear in mind that if you do that you would have to install a 40 amp circuit to plug it into and you wouldn't have any redundancy. But other than that it might work if fitted with 2-pole breakers. -
In a business environment every time you try to save money by not doing something correctly, Murphy’s Law gets reinforced big time. Granted there are degrees of correctness, but blatant disregard for tried and true power wiring is not recommended.
Things that you can get away with on the bench for short term testing seldom work out when put in service 24/7 unattended especially when it is your source of income.
You can’t afford pissed off customers, nobody wants a service that’s unreliable (even if it is cheaper than other options).
-
Yes, but even the tech people I talk to say no, it's only for 208VAC. So it's listed as Single-Phase. Is it possible in the US to get single phase 208VAC?
Yes, 208 V AC single phase is a standard supply voltage in commercial premises.Maybe modifying the current PDU would be the better way to go. A lot of work, I know, and it'd void warranty, but that just might be the best way to go about it.
Bear in mind that if you do that you would have to install a 40 amp circuit to plug it into and you wouldn't have any redundancy. But other than that it might work if fitted with 2-pole breakers.
I got a few seconds here, yes, I got the double-pole 40-amp breaker which I can return, if need be. But I was thinking about what you said, "About the 5 kVA, that's a North American constraint, governed by the NEC."....would modifying the current PDU (which I do like because of the fact that it can handle higher loads) violate the NEC because it'd be using the 40-amp breaker? I understand that 30-amp breakers the max would be 24-amp. And I understand why. But what I was saying was could HPE make a PDU for 240V North America that provides a higher load using something like double-pole 40-amp breakers? Or is that against NEC? I can check the NEC when I finish up here. But once I'm done here, I want to get some work done for my start-up business. -
In a business environment every time you try to save money by not doing something correctly, Murphy’s Law gets reinforced big time. Granted there are degrees of correctness, but blatant disregard for tried and true power wiring is not recommended.
Things that you can get away with on the bench for short term testing seldom work out when put in service 24/7 unattended especially when it is your source of income.
You can’t afford pissed off customers, nobody wants a service that’s unreliable (even if it is cheaper than other options).
I agree. But is there really anything wrong with modifying this PDU if they won't accept the return, and then buying the same, modifying that for redundancy, instead of buying something like 6 of the P9S13A's? When I did a quick price check, the price of those P9S13As where more than the P9S16As.
Once this guy leaves, I'll go through the numbers again, figure out exactly what our load is, what will need to be ran off the PDUs, what won't. For my workbench, I wanted to purchase a switched and metered PDU (doesn't have to be HPE) that was around 10-foot tall, but I can't seem to find one. A general power strip I can find. Right now, that's what I have, just a general power strip. -
Look on ebay for PDUs, there are tons of perfectly good used ones that are cheap compared to new. It's not like they're something that tends to wear out.
-
But what I was saying was could HPE make a PDU for 240V North America that provides a higher load using something like double-pole 40-amp breakers?
It seems that they could, but they don't. For higher loads they seem to prefer three phase supplies, probably because that is what will be found in data centers. If they made a high power 240 V single phase PDU for North America they would have no sales because no customers would have a need for it.
Your existing P9S16A PDU is designed to handle 32 A and is fitted with two 16 A single pole breakers. If you were to replace the single pole breakers with double pole breakers rated for 16 A continuous, and if you were to plug the PDU into a 40 A 240 V circuit (using 8-gauge wire for the circuit and using plugs rated for 32 A continuous) then I suppose, theoretically, it would work.
But since you would be going off script, you would have to absorb the risk of things going wrong and would void any warranty support. -
Now that many of us on this forum have spent countless hours advising Spork about powering his secret project, I would like to make a guess as to what this project might be.
My guess: Spork is turning his basement into a node for a VPN. If so, his revenue will depend on up time and throughput but the IT administrators want control of things like powering down servers and routing data. But a power outage won’t be the end of this business model because the customers can be automatically connected via another node. The VPN saves a ton of money by not needing to be located in expensive data centers plus they have a continuous tech on site. It could be a nice steady source of income that may grow. Worst case the VPN goes out of business leaving Spork with a sizeable investment not yet amortized.
-
Now that many of us on this forum have spent countless hours advising Spork about powering his secret project, I would like to make a guess as to what this project might be.
My guess: Spork is turning his basement into a node for a VPN. If so, his revenue will depend on up time and throughput but the IT administrators want control of things like powering down servers and routing data. But a power outage won’t be the end of this business model because the customers can be automatically connected via another node. The VPN saves a ton of money by not needing to be located in expensive data centers plus they have a continuous tech on site. It could be a nice steady source of income that may grow. Worst case the VPN goes out of business leaving Spork with a sizeable investment not yet amortized.
I wish I could say yes or no. I have a gentleman working with me now, and he's good, but he doesn't even know the grand scheme, just the stuff he needs to work.
Originally, I designed something, years ago, and I believed in open hardware / open software. I thought that by releasing our invention open hardware / open software, people would come together and work on it as a team, much like they did with the original open-source PS3 Toolchain. I developed the circuit board, released under a GPL license, he programmed the microcontroller.
Then the next thing I know, he's selling a slightly modified version on his site. Turns out we had different ideas of what the purpose of the open hardware / open software was. Unfortunately, under the license I had used, he was fully within the rights to legally do what he did. However, his run has ended and he made a little bit of money I'm guessing, but that was it. He couldn't improve the design any, because he didn't really know it.
I've spent a lot of years learning more, a lot more. Reading various books on circuit design, saving up money to purchase expensive software, talking to various companies who are interested in selling what we're working on, etc.
Anyway, I wanted to apologize for my absence. It seems there's something more wrong with me then just stress. Yesterday, my wife came home from work at 0945 to meet her mother and give her a gift for her sister. She couldn't wake me up. For some still unknown reason, she didn't call for help or anything and just left me and gave our daughter to her mother to watch.
I passed out the night before for a couple hours. When I woke, I knew my sugar was off and thought I fixed it. I slept over 15 hours the other night!!!! When I finally woke up at around 1330, I realized something was really wrong. I wanted to sleep SOOOOO bad, but saw coffee next to the bed and drank it. It had enough sugar in it to get me out of bed and I measured my sugar level. It was soooo low, the meter wouldn't recognize it. I spent all day yesterday trying to stabilize. I've had hypoglycemia for a while, but I've never had an issue (until recently) of my sugar going too high. And usually, I was good just eating three squares a day, but now, that doesn't appear to be enough.
Lost a lot of weight real quick like (2 - 3 lbs a week). Gotta pee all the time. And what feels like my right kidney is freaking killing me! So I go into the docs today at 1440 to get looked at, yet again. -
Spork,
You need to stop stressing out so much and reflect upon priorities in life. Tell your wife and kids that you love them and thank them for their support; in other words try to turn the situation into the best possible scenario even if it isn’t fully what you want. I sincerely wish you the best with your project.
-
Spork,
You need to stop stressing out so much and reflect upon priorities in life. Tell your wife and kids that you love them and thank them for their support; in other words try to turn the situation into the best possible scenario even if it isn’t fully what you want. I sincerely wish you the best with your project.
I think that advice could be applied to everyone and I think it's excellent advice. Sometimes, as technicians, programmers, etc., we're working on the job and we're so close to finishing something, we want to just finish that last little bit. Next thing we know, it's 0300 and the wife and child(ren) are in bed.
I always try to put my family first, my wife and daughter. I have work to do, I always will. Even if this business fails, there will still be work that needs to be done, but I set rules. 1) I don't work when I'm watching my daughter. Sometimes, I'll cheat a little and send an e-mail or check the forums, but just real quick like. When my wife gets home, I try not to work (unless it's something I consider very important) until her and my daughter take their daily nap together. I make sure we have daddy / daughter time, daddy / mummy time, and daddy / daughter / mummy time. I think the middle one is just as important, taking your wife out to dinner and grabbing a baby sitter or something.
Anyways, thanks for the advice Gregg. -
As stated previously, here is the drawing I created to submit to the local code enforcement office. He was nice and said he wasn't going to make me get a permit. I still have to pay for inspection though and he gave me a list of numbers to call to find an inspector. Once the rough wiring is done, I'll have them come up. The code enforcer that I talked to is the one who will do the final inspection.
Glad I can start working now!
-
Nice diagram.
If you are buying new Romex for this installation rather than using existing stock you might try to obtain cable with black, red and ground cores rather than black, white and ground cores. This will avoid the need to use black electrical tape.