This is one of those cases where not showing a country tag will affect the relevancy of the answers to the question.
I have 2 power cords. They plug into the 110 mains socket on one end.
I just looked it up and, yeah, sure enough the Schuko and Europlug styles do not specify a line vs neutral. Crazy!
I just looked it up and, yeah, sure enough the Schuko and Europlug styles do not specify a line vs neutral. Crazy!In my view this is a safety feature. If the safety of a lightbulb depends on all parts connecting the line and neutral correctly then the safety is easily compromised. Better to build the safety of devices without knowledge on how line and neutral are connected.
For most applications it shouldn't matter
If it has an on/off switch it matters. You switch the hot side so nothing is live on the other side.
You switch the hot side so nothing is live on the other side.
If it has an on/off switch it matters. You switch the hot side so nothing is live on the other side.No. The switch should switch both wires.
If it has an on/off switch it matters. You switch the hot side so nothing is live on the other side.No. The switch should switch both wires.Well, you are free to implement what you want, but this isn't how it is done in the real world. Neutral eventually ties back to Earth ground so if you switch it out you are disabling a potential safety.
You switch the hot side so nothing is live on the other side.
That is a dangerous assumption. You should always unplug something if you are going to service it. If you are not, what do you care that some wires inside the appliance are hot? It is not like any current is going to flow.
If wired correctly the neutral side can act as Earth ground.
Not always.
If wired correctly the neutral side can act as Earth ground.
Not always.Not always WHAT? Please not the use of the word "potential" in my post. My job is not code enforcement but it is to know what the code is.
If wired correctly the neutral side can act as Earth ground.Ah. Now I get it. Trolling. I was there when the electrician installed my new panel. I can assure you my neutral is correctly installed and is tied to ground. If you want to ignore the totality of a posting please just ignore it all.
If wired correctly the neutral side can act as Earth ground.Ah. Now I get it. Trolling. I was there when the electrician installed my new panel. I can assure you my neutral is correctly installed and is tied to ground. If you want to ignore the totality of a posting please just ignore it all.Link the part that says you can use the neutral to act as Earth ground.
It all seems pretty messy from the comfortable viewpoint of the UK.
I know that products these days shouldn't care, but there's still a warm and fuzzy feeling about always having the fuse in the Live.
Would you put the fuse on the ground side?
Would you put the fuse on the ground side?Ground side? I'll assume you meant neutral.
Take a good look at that German Schuko outlet in the picture further up and think again.
Well, you are free to implement what you want, but this isn't how it is done in the real world.
Would you put the fuse on the ground side?Ground side? I'll assume you meant neutral.
Take a good look at that German Schuko outlet in the picture further up and think again.Obviously the discussion applies to systems that are polarized (define hot/neutral). There is good reason to have polarized systems, safety is one. In the US two wire gave way to 3 wire for a reason.
Design rules for appliances are always going to be slightly schizophrenic. They call for both active and return ( or live and neutral) conductors to have equal insulation on them, and that they should both be treated as being live conductors. Then the same regulations say that you should not fuse the neutral, and that there should not be a switch in the neutral side ( double pole switches that are designed to safely switch both conductors are allowed though) in this. Non polarised mains calls for fusing of both active conductors, and for for a switch that is either single pole or double throw. Hard to reconcile them both in a product made for a world market, unless you have 2 versions.
Well, you are free to implement what you want, but this isn't how it is done in the real world.Perhaps not in your world, but on our side of the pond it is common.
Polarized sockets and single wire switching (your world) or unpolarized sockets and double wire switching (my world).
In the US, residential power is 240V single phase with a grounded center tap on the transformer. That center tap is what we call neutral. Most of Europe seems to be 230V. I can't find a transformer configuration to confirm your 'neutral'. Indeed, it would explain the double pole switch and lack of polarization at the plug. Here we have a similar requirement because both legs would be considered 'hot'. I guess we need to make sure we are talking about the same thing here.
I simply stated what is normally considered 'code'. It has nothing to do with repair and everything to do with what can happen while it is sitting there doing nothing. Having live current in an an otherwise idle device can do many things and probably most of them are bad. That is why you switch the hot side. If wired correctly the neutral side can act as Earth ground. Which side would you switch?
In the US, residential power is 240V single phase with a grounded center tap on the transformer. That center tap is what we call neutral. Most of Europe seems to be 230V. I can't find a transformer configuration to confirm your 'neutral'. Indeed, it would explain the double pole switch and lack of polarization at the plug. Here we have a similar requirement because both legs would be considered 'hot'. I guess we need to make sure we are talking about the same thing here.The common installation here in Sweden is 230V three phase, neutral and ground arriving at the house (230V between phase and neutral, 400V between phases). Installations in the house is either three phase for some appliances (stove, heater) and single phase for normal outlets and lights (split over the three phases). Fuses and switches on the live side only. Outlets are non polarized (German Schuko). Most home appliances are double insulated and most likely witch both leads.
I simply stated what is normally considered 'code'. It has nothing to do with repair and everything to do with what can happen while it is sitting there doing nothing. Having live current in an an otherwise idle device can do many things and probably most of them are bad. That is why you switch the hot side. If wired correctly the neutral side can act as Earth ground. Which side would you switch?
If, as you say, your job is to know what the code is and you say that "neutral can act as earth ground" you are terrible at your job. There is nothing in modern US code that says you can ever treat neutral as ground or safe.
Yes, it is normal and allowed to only switch the live wire on polarized equipment. But double insulated equipment can and does switch both side (if it has a switch at all). That does not mean that "neutral side can act as ground" which that is a dangerous, irresponsible, and incorrect thing to say.
If wired correctly the neutral side can act as Earth ground.Ah. Now I get it. Trolling. I was there when the electrician installed my new panel. I can assure you my neutral is correctly installed and is tied to ground. If you want to ignore the totality of a posting please just ignore it all.
So no, it cannot act as a ground conductor because that is not wired correctly.
So no, it cannot act as a ground conductor because that is not wired correctly.So in my example of it sitting in a flooded basement you are saying the neutral cannot be acting as a ground?
I simply stated what is normally considered 'code'. It has nothing to do with repair and everything to do with what can happen while it is sitting there doing nothing. Having live current in an an otherwise idle device can do many things and probably most of them are bad. That is why you switch the hot side. If wired correctly the neutral side can act as Earth ground. Which side would you switch?
If, as you say, your job is to know what the code is and you say that "neutral can act as earth ground" you are terrible at your job. There is nothing in modern US code that says you can ever treat neutral as ground or safe.
Yes, it is normal and allowed to only switch the live wire on polarized equipment. But double insulated equipment can and does switch both side (if it has a switch at all). That does not mean that "neutral side can act as ground" which that is a dangerous, irresponsible, and incorrect thing to say.Again, someone that wants to pull a few words out of context to prove their point. If I go into my basement and find my circular saw half submerged in water from overnight flooding you are telling me the neutral CANNOT be acting as ground because that would be a "dangerous, irresponsible" thing for it to be doing?
So no, it cannot act as a ground conductor because that is not wired correctly.So in my example of it sitting in a flooded basement you are saying the neutral cannot be acting as a ground?
Not particularly more than the ground itself. I don't see why you're bringing flooding into a wiring discussion - unless you're really enjoying arguing.
Design rules for appliances are always going to be slightly schizophrenic. They call for both active and return ( or live and neutral) conductors to have equal insulation on them, and that they should both be treated as being live conductors. Then the same regulations say that you should not fuse the neutral, and that there should not be a switch in the neutral side ( double pole switches that are designed to safely switch both conductors are allowed though) in this. Non polarised mains calls for fusing of both active conductors, and for for a switch that is either single pole or double throw. Hard to reconcile them both in a product made for a world market, unless you have 2 versions.
You're mixing up appliances and installations. There is no disconnect in the codes.
For appliances, it makes perfect sense to treat live and neutral the same, as in some areas of the world the plug can be rotated 180 deg without problem, and also, you never know which dork changed the plug at some point.
For installations, it's a different story, as they should be done by professionals, and switching and fusing only the live makes sense to avoid a ton of copper in the house.
Wiring a wall outlet is one thing. Manufacturing a powercord is another. I dont see any reason to make a power cord in both straight and crossover. But apparently in europe this makes the cord safer.
I don't think he is confusing appliances and installations.
If the mains plug, is non-polarised then it makes sense to assume that either active conductor is phase.
If there's a polarised mains plug, then it's perfectly reasonable to assume that live and neutral are correctly wired up and the fuse and switch should always be on the phase side.
I don't think he is confusing appliances and installations.
If the mains plug, is non-polarised then it makes sense to assume that either active conductor is phase.
If there's a polarised mains plug, then it's perfectly reasonable to assume that live and neutral are correctly wired up and the fuse and switch should always be on the phase side.
Unfortunately, this is a only in dream world.
In the real world, a UK consumer would buy a 230 V appliance from Amazon (or another online dealer) and get it delivered with a Schuko (CEE 7/4) cable, because that's how appliances are delivered these days (don't tell me it's illegal in the UK, because that's moot).
He will then go to his local electric shop and buy one of those nice cigar-box sized, 3-prong, UK-type plugs, cut off the Schuko and do the wiring of the plug himself.
Few people will have any idea of polarity, but there's always a little cardboard sign saying green/yellow must go to earth, making certain they don't kill themselves.
That's the reality.
First, sorry, I was improving my post as you posted.
Second, I'm not talking about cr*p from Amazon, I'm talking brand products. Siemens, Bosch, Miele...).
If the mains plug, is non-polarised then it makes sense to assume that either active conductor is phase.
If there's a polarised mains plug, then it's perfectly reasonable to assume that live and neutral are correctly wired up and the fuse and switch should always be on the phase side. When designing an appliance one must assume the installation is wired correctly and one can't be held liable for a shock/fire due to a faulty installation, i.e. reversed phase and earth conductor. I doubt anyone designing something with a 3 phase + neutral plug, would presume phase and neutral are interchangeable and consider switching two of the phases and the neutral.
In the real world, a UK consumer* would buy a 230 V appliance from Amazon (or another online dealer) and get it delivered with a Schuko (CEE 7/4) cable, because that's how appliances are delivered these days (don't tell me it's illegal in the UK, because that's moot).
He will then go to his local electric shop and buy one of those nice cigar-box sized, 3-prong, UK-type plugs, cut off the Schuko and do the wiring of the plug himself.
If not s/he probably will just go and buy a pre-made lead because most people are too lazy and too deskilled to wire a plug and the chances are a prefabricated lead costs less than a plug.
QuoteIf not s/he probably will just go and buy a pre-made lead because most people are too lazy and too deskilled to wire a plug and the chances are a prefabricated lead costs less than a plug.
Unless it's a fixed lead.
If the mains plug, is non-polarised then it makes sense to assume that either active conductor is phase.
If there's a polarised mains plug, then it's perfectly reasonable to assume that live and neutral are correctly wired up and the fuse and switch should always be on the phase side. When designing an appliance one must assume the installation is wired correctly and one can't be held liable for a shock/fire due to a faulty installation, i.e. reversed phase and earth conductor. I doubt anyone designing something with a 3 phase + neutral plug, would presume phase and neutral are interchangeable and consider switching two of the phases and the neutral.It would seem that way but let me offer you a counter example.
If you are in France and plug in a piece of equipment which uses a Schuko to IEC lead you will almost certainly end up with live and neutral swapped in the equipment, despite the polarised plug.
The reason is that all of the Schuko to IEC leads that I have ever encountered (I suspect even those bought in France1) are wired to the German pattern which puts the live on the left of the socket and the French put it on the right (as viewed looking into the socket as installed).
In fact the French "normes" only require the live on the right if the earth pin is at the top of the socket - if the socket has been inverted there is no convention.
Also - and, OK, I don't think this is entirely a fair criticism - if you use one of the Schuko to UK adapters in France you will find the British plug goes in upside down and live and neutral will be swapped - putting the fuse on the neutral side is not all that great for safety.
[1] I'm not sure whether any of the many Schuko to IEC leads that I possess were bought in France, I suspect that they were all bought in the UK or that I acquired them in equipment where they were an "extra" because the box contained both a European and a UK lead. BUT all the ones that I have seen on sale in France look to be the usual Chinese imports and I doubt they do a French specific version but just ship the CEE 7/7 hybrid plug.
If something is designed to be safe and work properly in one location, one shouldn't expect it to do so elsewhere. Fine for appliances designed to work across Europe, then I concede that it's good practise to design for non-polarised, single phase mains, otherwise it's silly. For example, I use US appliances here in the UK, via a transformer. The line frequency is 50Hz, rather than 60Hz, which isn't good for the transformers. I accept that there's a risk of overheating and I'm probably voiding any warranties by operating the equipment outside its specification.