Author Topic: $1000 USD CAD and Rendering Workhorse. Getting the Balance right? (Read 33514 times)

mnementh · « **Reply #125 on:** July 08, 2019, 04:31:03 am »

Quote from: David Hess on July 08, 2019, 04:11:32 am

Wait long enough and Zen 2 will be out with apparently competitive single thread performance. Even Linus, the other one, ate his words.

Naaahhh... that's all made-up drama just for this video. Linus has literally been VIBRATING about AMD ever since he saw "all the new schizz" at CompuTex. It's been pretty much all he could do for weeks now to NOT shoot his wad all over his 8K Red cameras about what this new family of processors & motherboards is capable of. Over and over again. He's always been a closet AMD gaming fanboy.

But NOW you can see some real figures on JUST WHAT pcie4.0 means as far as SSD throughput. EXACTLY as I said... seriously fast. And you'll no longer have to put up with your 2nd M.2 slot running at half the bandwidth; BOTH can run that fast at the same time with pcie4.0. And SO CAN the ones you plug into a riser card, until you run out of channels that aren't being used by your GPU.

THAT SAID... I can see the X570 board's active cooling being a bit of a headache for bean in a 40° workshop... fortunately it DOES have its own PWM speed control AND PWM tach signal for warning klaxons, just like modern AIO liquid coolers.

mnem

mnementh · « **Reply #126 on:** July 08, 2019, 04:42:04 am »

*waves at eevBlog perusing the thread*

Hi Dave!

mnem

mnementh · « **Reply #127 on:** July 08, 2019, 04:52:17 am »

Quote from: David Hess on July 08, 2019, 04:19:24 am

Quote from: mnementh on July 08, 2019, 04:14:25 am
No, no, no... modern cases put the radiator at the TOP of the box, pulling from the case and exiting upward so the CPU doesn't heat anything up.
But how do I stack things on top of my computer case?

My solution was to put my pictures of my kids on top of the CPU case (thin & vertical) and use the space vacated by them on my desktop for THINGS.

mnem
Of course... YMMV, DQMOT, IIRC, OMFGBBQ, DILLIGAF?

Mr. Scram · « **Reply #128 on:** July 08, 2019, 04:53:47 am »

Quote from: mnementh on July 08, 2019, 03:09:45 am

Oh sweet cheese and crackers...

It's like I'm the ONLY ONE in here who bothered to read the BOM and actually has a clue what is really needed to fulfill it, for Ifni's sake.

You all are building a Dell corporate fleet machine in your head. bean needs a freaking content creation powerhouse CAPABLE of rendering 8K video, because he wants to be able to do 4K video in a reasonable amount of time under warehouse-workshop hostile environment conditions. VERY similar needs to a top-tier 144FPS+ gaming rig, only ALSO needing massive multi-thread processing and oodles of RAM, and the bandwidth to keep it all from gagging on that load.

smeesh.

Though I WOULD recommend one thing for sure, my friend. Budget another $100-150 for a name-brand 120mm by 240mm AIO sealed liquid cooler. Even with the reduced 95W/105W TDP of the 3900X, the Wraith that comes in the box is gonna be howling like a freight train trying to keep your Zen3 cool at 40° ambient; no matter how big the box.

mnem

It appears you have missed the various posts which bothered to look up the actual requirements of the programs beanflying mentioned. Not the minimum or the recommended specifications and definitely not endless baseless speculations, but actual real world and tested configurations. I'm not sure what any of that has to do with Dell machines, but that's how workstations are configured when people aren't dicking around and things need to work out first time.

If heat is a great concern an AIO definitely is an option, but they unfortunately take another significant chunk out of the budget. It should be noted that the better air coolers are also very capable and as reliable as it gets. That may be a way of saving a few dollars.

https://www.anandtech.com/bench/CPUCooling/774

mnementh · « **Reply #129 on:** July 08, 2019, 05:06:08 am »

Nope. didn't miss 'em. I'm just not kidding myself about what bean needs for what he wants to do. I've been doing nothing for months but looking at builds and framerates and render times on just the sort of work he wants to do, and even 2900Xs have a hard time doing some of it in reasonable amounts of time. The bandwidth bottlenecks are part of it, as are all but the most expensive processors.

A good air cooler is also additional money. You CAN buy an all-in-one like mine for as little as $60. I was recommending something like Corsair's Non-RGB 120x240mm cooler, which is more like ~~$90~~ now $75. I think for bean's situation, there simply is no contest for that kind of money.

Cheers,
mnem

beanflying · « **Reply #130 on:** July 08, 2019, 05:24:29 am »

There is of course the mission critical use case of the Roasting of the Bean. Today is sample roasting day, then the next few spent slurping and tasting. Requires the use of maybe an Itel Atom on W7 (overkill) but the Ryzen might nearly be up to the task

mnementh · « **Reply #131 on:** July 08, 2019, 05:28:40 am »

I'll send you my old 1055T to use as a hotplate AND do the spreadsheet. I'm sure you could while away hours figuring out just the right workload to produce a perfect roast while at the same time not shutting down or failing to update results.

mnem

Mr. Scram · « **Reply #132 on:** July 08, 2019, 05:31:11 am »

Quote from: mnementh on July 08, 2019, 05:06:08 am

Nope. didn't miss 'em. I'm just not kidding myself about what bean needs for what he wants to do. I've been doing nothing for months but looking at builds and framerates and render times on just the sort of work he wants to do, and even 2900Xs have a hard time doing some of it in reasonable amounts of time. The bandwidth bottlenecks are part of it, as are all but the most expensive processors.

A good air cooler is also additional money. You CAN buy an all-in-one like mine for as little as $60. I was recommending something like Corsair's Non-RGB 120x240mm cooler, which is more like ~~$90~~ now $75. I think for bean's situation, there simply is no contest for that kind of money.

Cheers,
mnem

Unfortunately, we haven't seen any of the information you say you've dug up in those months. Meanwhile, actual benchmarks and requirements for the programs the computer is intended for were posted in the posts discussing them. We can be very sure Puget systems isn't kidding anyone about the tailor made workstations they build every day and the research they put into that. They provide a good example of how you substantiate claims with evidence on top of "having done the research" and "working in the business".

mnementh · « **Reply #133 on:** July 08, 2019, 05:40:25 am »

You offered someone else's research based on a web search instead of your own advice. I offered my own advice based on months of my own research trying to grok exactly the kind of knowledge bean asked for. Let's see who comes out closer to right in the end.

Cheers,

mnem
*toddles off to ded*

beanflying · « **Reply #134 on:** July 08, 2019, 08:07:40 am »

Backwards Compatibility of Ryzen 3

I won't be going there but you can run a 3900X on a B350 with some pain. Unlike Intel changing sockets every time the wind changes.

mnementh · « **Reply #135 on:** July 08, 2019, 01:31:00 pm »

Yeah, we've known that since like January; one of the first leaked tidbits. Also note the RAM speeds Linus was talking about above; you're going to be wanting DDR4-3800 min, DDR4-4000 preferably. NOW you see why I was suggesting to START with 16GB, expand to 32GB later. Even 16GB of DDR4-4000 is gonna hurt. And your cheap MBs are NOT gonna play well with that RAM; AMD redesigned the memory controllers, chipset and the board layout to actually be able to go there reliably.

Cheers,

mnem

wraper · « **Reply #136 on:** July 08, 2019, 01:57:40 pm »

I intended to stay silent, but cannot stop from face palming from what's happening here. ^FYI Ryzen 3000 series drop infinity fabric frequency by half if you go over 3733 MHz RAM. All your super fast RAM will do is reducing performance for a lot of money. Also all those ultra high clocked RAM are not JEDEC compliant and are just non IC mfg binned and overclocked 2133 MHz chips. As for performance, going above 3200MHz barely gives any performance increase on 3000 series. Not that it even mattered that much with previous models in anything other than games. As of suggested AIO coolers, not only they are not better in cooling or more silent than high end air coolers, they also sometimes leak and if that happens destroy your MOBO, GPU and possibly set PSU on fire.

Black Phoenix · « **Reply #137 on:** July 09, 2019, 04:54:57 am »

Quote from: wraper on July 08, 2019, 01:57:40 pm

I intended to stay silent, but cannot stop from face palming from what's happening here. ^FYI Ryzen 3000 series drop infinity fabric frequency by half if you go over 3733 MHz RAM. All your super fast RAM will do is reducing performance for a lot of money. Also all those ultra high clocked RAM are not JEDEC compliant and are just non IC mfg binned and overclocked 2133 MHz chips. As for performance, going above 3200MHz barely gives any performance increase on 3000 series. Not that it even mattered that much with previous models in anything other than games. As of suggested AIO coolers, not only they are not better in cooling or more silent than high end air coolers, they also sometimes leak and if that happens destroy your MOBO, GPU and possibly set PSU on fire.

Totally right. I find the sweet spot about Ryzen in the 3000MHz, 3200MHz. Corsair LPX or Crucial Ballistix. No need to Spend more.

Regarding the PC Config, I recomment something like this: (A 1200$ without Monitors and Keyboards/Mouse):

Quote

PCPartPicker Part List: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/JPWMRJ

CPU: AMD - Ryzen 7 2700X 3.7 GHz 8-Core Processor ($254.99 @ Newegg)
CPU Cooler: be quiet! - Shadow Rock Slim 67.8 CFM Rifle Bearing CPU Cooler ($49.80 @ OutletPC)
Motherboard: Gigabyte - X570 AORUS ELITE ATX AM4 Motherboard ($199.99 @ Amazon)
Memory: Corsair - Vengeance LPX 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3200 Memory ($69.99 @ Newegg)
Memory: Corsair - Vengeance LPX 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3200 Memory ($69.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Corsair - MP510 480 GB M.2-2280 Solid State Drive ($64.99 @ Newegg Business)
Storage: Seagate - BarraCuda 4 TB 3.5" 5400RPM Internal Hard Drive ($79.99 @ Newegg)
Video Card: Asus - Radeon RX 580 4 GB Dual Video Card ($159.99 @ Newegg)
Case: Fractal Design - Define R5 (Black) ATX Mid Tower Case ($129.99 @ Newegg Business)
Power Supply: Corsair - RMx (2018) 850 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply ($129.99 @ Newegg Business)
Total: $1209.71

I added a GPU because in the main configuration the OP posted, the CPU in question doesn't have IGU, so a GPU is needed. I put a normal gaming GPU as reference, it should work with CAD if it have OpenGL available. But if the OP can, search for good deals in FirePro/Quadro Used Models.

Plus this config is Linux Compatible, so if the OP instead of Windows want to use Linux it will work without any problems.

mnementh · « **Reply #138 on:** July 09, 2019, 05:54:49 am »

"Should work".

Somebody else who didn't read the original BOM, has no idea what is really needed. Here we go again.

Both of you are building yesterday's budget gaming rig, NOT a next-gen content creation rendering machine.

wraper, even with you on ignore I can't get away from your inane drivel. If you'd actually BOTHERED to listen to the video you snapshotted, you'd realize he was saying the EXACT OPPOSITE. He is saying that up til NOW, this has been the case... but with the new 3xxx processors and X570 MBs, 3800MHz will be not only possible, it will be the baseline of performance. That DDR4 3600 (not 3200) will be the VALUE config, with high-end power users able to go DDR4-4200 and even OC to 5GHz plus.

THAT, BTW, is the neighborhood of what bean is building.

And again... the video supported my argument that pcie4.0 is a big deal, and in EXACTLY the way I described it. Shocking.

Your arguments against liquid cooling... partcularly AOIs, are utter infantile feces-flinging. Seriously. No nicer way to put it. You just propagate ignorance when you post crap like that. * But hey, keep dragging your friends in here to post irrelevant stuff like the above.

Cheers,

mnem
*edited to reduce aggro tone*

Black Phoenix · « **Reply #139 on:** July 09, 2019, 06:19:34 am »

Sir,

Can you use Xeons, yes you can, can you use ECC memory, yes you can. Can you buy old workstations that were decommissioned from a company? Yes you can but if they were decommissioned it's because they are using new stuff that its better. It's the value/perfomance better? Probably depends, of how much you paid.

I deployed exactly the same configuration at my last work but with an Ryzen 1700X back when I was in Portugal with an equivalent Motherboard with proper VRMs with a AMD FirePro V7100 for CAD Working.

The advantages in extra speed in memory are negligible after certain threshold. Plus Memory speed without proper timings its worse that lower speed but tighter timings.

PCIE Gen4 yes is a great deal, no denial, and PCIE Gen5 going to be released next year even more. Although the only hardware released that pings the advantage of PCIE4 currently are some NVME SSDs released this year in Computex.

Current Graphic Cards don't tap the full advantage of PCIE Gen3 16x speed.

For a production environment the use of Water Cooling is basically a risk to be taken. Did you see any company using PCs water cooled, Custom loop builds or AIO even? If it fails is basically production time lost and lost of hardware, specially if the AIO have defects (Enermax AIOs with corrosion, Corsair Pumps failing, etc... If you want I can link recall docs for what I'm saying). A Custom loop should be drained and clean each year, an AIO are good for around 4 years, they are made to be throw away when the pump fails. Never had a Fan in a AirCooler fail in the last 10 years, saw some AIOs fail because of evaporation of the liquid through the rubber tubes:

Quote

Finally, tubes are generally made of either FEP or EPDM rubber. The more rigid tubes tend to be FEP, which has excellent reduction of permeation, but less flexibility during installs. Kinking an FEP tube will result in cracking the inner PTFE coating, which results in permeation and poor cooling ability. EPDM tubes have the opposite set of pros and cons: They won’t really get damaged if bent and are more flexible, but it requires an expensive R&D process to get the compound to a point of resisting permeation. Ultimately, all tubes will exhibit the effects of age and will slowly lose fluid to natural processes. It’s just a matter of how long they last. Most CLCs are rated for use in the 4-6 year range, though it’s around years 4-5 that noise begins to get more noticeable. This is because enough of the fluid has permeated the tubes to allow for more air in the line, which gets sucked through the pump and causes gurgling. Users can mitigate this by mounting the tubes down in a vertical CLC install.

https://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/2926-how-liquid-coolers-work-deep-dive

An air cooler with good fans just need a blow with compressed air, and it's good as new. If you want to use water in your own computer for your own production, yes go ahead. But in a deployment of 40 machines no thank you I will not do it.

beanflying · « **Reply #140 on:** July 09, 2019, 06:53:22 am »

I did put in the original post both a CPU and GPU with the GPU (likely an RX 580 at the time) in particular being up for discussion so it was in a separate paragraph from memory. Given the release prices of the new 5700's I would expect maybe a small bump in quantity and reduction in second hand pricing locally so I will be sitting on my hands for a bit for a GPU purchase.

For a processor the 3700X is where I am going and it is still with the budget. To me it is well worth the $80USD premium over the 2700X for punch and the drop in power.

Re memory. Bad idea to go 4 slots of 8Gb so I am going 2 slots of 16Gb and given the law of diminishing returns on $ for speeds over 3200 it is about where I want to go. 3-6 months or a year down the track most likely a different answer but to balance the budget this makes sense to me at this time.

Black Phoenix · « **Reply #141 on:** July 09, 2019, 07:06:29 am »

Quote from: beanflying on July 09, 2019, 06:53:22 am

I did put in the original post both a CPU and GPU with the GPU (likely an RX 580 at the time) in particular being up for discussion so it was in a separate paragraph from memory. Given the release prices of the new 5700's I would expect maybe a small bump in quantity and reduction in second hand pricing locally so I will be sitting on my hands for a bit for a GPU purchase.

For a processor the 3700X is where I am going and it is still with the budget. To me it is well worth the $80USD premium over the 2700X for punch and the drop in power.

Re memory. Bad idea to go 4 slots of 8Gb so I am going 2 slots of 16Gb and given the law of diminishing returns on $ for speeds over 3200 it is about where I want to go. 3-6 months or a year down the track most likely a different answer but to balance the budget this makes sense to me at this time.

Sorry didn't saw the GPU on the bottom, just read in the diagonal.

Sensible choices and reasoning.

I gone with the 2700X and a X570 to give upgrade in the future, with a proven CPU currently plus an motherboard with good VRM to support the 3000 series including the 16c/32t 3950x to be release in the future this year.

The reason for the 4x8GB was also for the price in question of the kit, compared with the equivalent in 2x16GB 3200MHz ( $139.98 vs $154.99), giving more financial headroom for the graphic cards and also taking use of the dual memory channel capabilities of the CPU, specially the last one since the 20 dollar difference is easily achievable.

wraper · « **Reply #142 on:** July 09, 2019, 08:20:10 am »

Quote from: mnementh on July 09, 2019, 05:54:49 am

wraper, even with you on ignore I can't get away from your inane drivel. If you'd actually BOTHERED to listen to the video you snapshotted, you'd realize he was saying the EXACT OPPOSITE. He is saying that up til NOW, this has been the case... but with the new 3xxx processors and X570 MBs, 3800MHz will be not only possible, it will be the baseline of performance. That DDR4 3600 (not 3200) will be the VALUE config, with high-end power users able to go DDR4-4200 and even OC to 5GHz plus.

You can use such frequencies but it does not add performance. Did you even try looking on performance graph?

. Not to say using highly overclocked RAM in anything real work related is plain stupid. Such modules run overvolted and it's simply not reliable enough. Rather than spending on such stupid RAM and other stuff which does not add performance, you can just buy 12 core CPU.
EDIT: and BTW nothing from that was from any video. If video used slide provided by AMD, it does not make it origin.

beanflying · « **Reply #143 on:** July 09, 2019, 08:27:50 am »

Moving right along and back somewhere closer to the Topic I opened. Wendell is an acquired taste but worth a look or listen instead of the overclock or die squad.

Interesting thoughts and performance tests on the 3700 and 3900X on Resolve and Premier vs Intel.

Black Phoenix · « **Reply #144 on:** July 09, 2019, 10:04:55 am »

Wendell is one of the best in the Business for information, he had lots and lots of AMD and Linux combined.

Him and Gamers Nexus, the two youtube channels that I recommend if you want unbiased and thoroughly researched topics with data to backup, compared with money spenders / attention seekers like Linus Tech Tips: His videos are fun to watch but most of the times the technical aspect of the newer videos left a lot to desire.

I hope that now that Antony is there doing the most technical videos now that the information of his channel will improve to the old times of the Linus Tech Tips Group.

Mr. Scram · « **Reply #145 on:** July 09, 2019, 10:41:20 am »

Quote from: mnementh on July 09, 2019, 05:54:49 am

"Should work". Somebody else who didn't read the original BOM, has no idea what is really needed. Here we go again. Both of you are building yesterday's budget gaming rig, NOT a next-gen content creation rendering machine.

wraper, even with you on ignore I can't get away from your inane drivel. If you'd actually BOTHERED to listen to the video you snapshotted, you'd realize he was saying the EXACT OPPOSITE. He is saying that up til NOW, this has been the case... but with the new 3xxx processors and X570 MBs, 3800MHz will be not only possible, it will be the baseline of performance. That DDR4 3600 (not 3200) will be the VALUE config, with high-end power users able to go DDR4-4200 and even OC to 5GHz plus.

THAT, BTW, is the neighborhood of what bean is building.

And again... the video supported my argument that pcie4.0 is a big deal, and in EXACTLY the way I described it. Shocking.

Your arguments against liquid cooling... partcularly AOIs, are utter infantile feces-flinging. Seriously. No nicer way to put it. you just show your ignorance when you post crap like that. But hey, keep dragging your friends in here to post irrelevant stuff like the above. It helps to spread the ignorance around.

Cheers,

mnem

The only reason there's a video card with 8 GB added is currently DaVinci, of which it's specifically stated that it really appreciates a video card with 8 GB of VRAM if you want to do 4K color grading. Puget benchmarks also indicate that the very best card for DaVinci is NVIDIA RTX 2080 Ti, better than any Quadro card. I doubt that's within beanflying's budget though and it should be noted that this doesn't appear to take the recent releases into account. The video posted seems to indicate that the new AMD cards could mean a significant improvement. Apparently Fusion 360 doesn't really care about whether it's running on a consumer or professional card. From a technical point of views it's vastly different from the classic CAD applications like AutoCAD and even those are being modernized. beanflying has also indicated that he'd like to be able to play a game every now and then. It does show that building what you call a "gaming rig" is appropriate for the situation. Which card exactly depends on the budget and how important DaVinci is compared to other tasks.

There's zero evidence for PCIe 4.0 being an upgrade with real world benefits. Without any evidence presented that topic is dismissed. It'd be appreciated if you could dial back the attitude towards other people in this thread. People are spending time and effort helping beanflying making a solid choice and they may actually know what they talking about. Let's have some fun rather than endlessly bickering.

beanflying · « **Reply #146 on:** July 09, 2019, 11:05:55 am »

As I am fairly badly colourblind and lack a $1k+ monitor there is little to be gained with looking to hard on grading but a better monitor is planned after the box. The more I look at it the RX580 is the low point and new fits in well for the budget. A lot of what I have been looking at is filtering out 100-200+FPS BS on cards with game X down to some real numbers and productivity.

Much as I have set a budget I only have to justify changing it to myself and my Cal gear is testament to not being bound by $ for a result. Does Beanflying need a 2060super or an RX 5700

Mr. Scram · « **Reply #147 on:** July 09, 2019, 11:12:48 am »

Quote from: beanflying on July 09, 2019, 11:05:55 am

As I am fairly badly colourblind and lack a $1k+ monitor there is little to be gained with looking to hard on grading but a better monitor is planned after the box. The more I look at it the RX580 is the low point and new fits in well for the budget. A lot of what I have been looking at is filtering out 100-200+FPS BS on cards with game X down to some real numbers and productivity.

Much as I have set a budget I only have to justify changing it to myself and my Cal gear is testament to not being bound by $ for a result. Does Beanflying need a 2060super or an RX 5700

Judging by the video posted a few posts back you need an RX5700 XT and a 3900X.

That combination somewhat surprisingly absolutely smokes anything and everything when it comes to DaVinci Resolve.

Black Phoenix · « **Reply #148 on:** July 09, 2019, 11:42:40 am »

Quote from: Mr. Scram on July 09, 2019, 11:12:48 am

Judging by the video posted a few posts back you need an RX5700 XT and a 3900X. That combination somewhat surprisingly absolutely smokes anything and everything when it comes to DaVinci Resolve.

Times two...

Quote from: beanflying on July 09, 2019, 11:05:55 am

As I am fairly badly colourblind and lack a $1k+ monitor there is little to be gained with looking to hard on grading but a better monitor is planned after the box. The more I look at it the RX580 is the low point and new fits in well for the budget. A lot of what I have been looking at is filtering out 100-200+FPS BS on cards with game X down to some real numbers and productivity.

In terms of monitors, one that I used also a lot, price performance for a cheap 24'' IPS Panel is the BenQ BL2423PT. I'm the kind of person of multi displays instead of a Big Curved One. Other than that the typical Dell Ultrasharp with their excellent colour reproduction is also a great monitor to use. All of these ones are 60Hz refresh rate.

olkipukki · « **Reply #149 on:** July 09, 2019, 01:00:33 pm »

Quote from: mnementh on July 09, 2019, 05:54:49 am

That DDR4 3600 (not 3200) will be the VALUE config, with high-end power users able to go DDR4-4200 and even OC to 5GHz plus.

Who are these guys? Gamers?


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Author Topic: $1000 USD CAD and Rendering Workhorse. Getting the Balance right? (Read 33514 times)

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