$1000 USD CAD and Rendering Workhorse. Getting the Balance right?

[beanflying]

It has been a long long while since I built a PC from scratch (XP days) and have an ASUS I5 Laptop and a couple refurbished PC's without Graphics cards in use currently. I have got to a point where even rendering 1080P is a PITA and CAD models are bogging down and crashing Fusion 360 in some cases on the shack PC. I have avoided capturing 4K off my good drone due to this and is a big part of the upgrade reason. Game playing isn't really a consideration but some performance that way would be a bonus.

So time to spend some $ and build a new one but before I commit to hardware second and third opinions being sought. I have done about as much BS filtered youtube watching as I can handle but the following is what I have come up with for my circa $1-1.2k. You can stick your RGB lights for $ somewhere else too it's a working PC not a showbag

Ryzen 2700X (would consider the 2600X if others thought putting $ elsewhere is better as there is about a $90 differential)
32GB DDR4 3200 Ram (Corsair or Ripjaws or ?)
500 GB (Samsung Evo 970 plus?)
B450 Pro Wifi motherboard (seems to tick all the boxes now and upgrading later) https://www.gigabyte.com/au/Motherboard/B450-AORUS-PRO-WIFI-rev-10#kf
H500 Cooler Master or similar case that is roomy and quiet
Power Supply 5-600W modular leads and quiet

Video cards is where I am getting most lost but an RX 580 8Gb but which brand and spec and should I look at secondhand? Should I look at GTX 1060 or 70's? With the other bits above there is $250-400 USD left to play with for this bit.

[Bicurico]

Cheapest option is buying  HP Z600 workstation for 150 Euro and fitting two Xeon X5670. Make sure you get the later motherboard supporting these and buy one taht already comes with two CPUs.
Then fit a SSD and a Geforce GTX860. Buy memory.
Total cost is around 400 Euro for 24 virtual cores,  24GB RAM, GTX and SSD.
Can't beat this price/performance ratio.
Regards,
Vitor

[beanflying]

Cheapest option is buying  HP Z600 workstation for 150 Euro and fitting two Xeon X5670. Make sure you get the later motherboard supporting these and buy one taht already comes with two CPUs.
Then fit a SSD and a Geforce GTX860. Buy memory.
Total cost is around 400 Euro for 24 virtual cores,  24GB RAM, GTX and SSD.
Can't beat this price/performance ratio.
Regards,
Vitor

Funny you should mention that option I was watching this only a few hours ago https://youtu.be/NT9Uj0sgLR4

I am in this case reluctant to buy yet another used  box that is already maxed out for any future upgrades. It may certainly suit others on a tighter budget. 

[sokoloff]

I just bought two used Dell 9020s, one for here and one for my dad. Dad got the small form factor; I got a mini-tower, because I wanted to get a half-decent graphics card. (I happened to pick an RX580 for a specific compatibility reason. Pick the video card that works well with the application you intend to use; any of them will work with games; sometimes productivity apps will work better with one brand or architecture vs another.)

You can get the very well constructed, few year old Dell (or HP) workstations stupid cheap and they are pretty upgradeable. Get one with an i7-4770 or so, put 32GB of RAM in, a small SSD, and a decent video card and you'll be around $550-650 all-in (at least in the US, where the market is thick with surplus and lease-return hardware).

If you're buying all the parts yourself, you're right to think hard and spend money on cooling and the power supply. I don't feel qualified to comment on the specifics of the latest Ryzen vs latest Intel, etc.

[olkipukki]

Ryzen 2700X (would consider the 2600X if others thought putting $ elsewhere is better as there is about a $90 differential)
32GB DDR4 3200 Ram (Corsair or Ripjaws or ?)
500 GB (Samsung Evo 970 plus?)
B450 Pro Wifi motherboard (seems to tick all the boxes now and upgrading later) https://www.gigabyte.com/au/Motherboard/B450-AORUS-PRO-WIFI-rev-10#kf
H500 Cooler Master or similar case that is roomy and quiet
Power Supply 5-600W modular leads and quiet

Doesn't make much sense to do it right now if you are not in rush...

Just wait and see how much and how long to wait new Ryzen 7 3nnnX (about to release on 7th of July) will available in your country.

I would say very likely you will able to buy Ryzen 27xxx cheaper after 37xxx release and a mass adoption.

[wraper]

Cheapest option is buying  HP Z600 workstation for 150 Euro and fitting two Xeon X5670. Make sure you get the later motherboard supporting these and buy one taht already comes with two CPUs.
Then fit a SSD and a Geforce GTX860. Buy memory.
Total cost is around 400 Euro for 24 virtual cores,  24GB RAM, GTX and SSD.
Can't beat this price/performance ratio.
Regards,
Vitor

I don't see value in that. Poor performance for what it is and power burner.

[David Hess]

Since your slowest applications make good use of multiple cores, I agree that the Ryzen 7 is your best choice.  I am considering a similar system to replace my Phenom 2 940 but will probably go with the more efficient but slower Ryzen 7 2700 which is 65 watts instead of the faster 2700X which is 105 watts.

[Mr. Scram]

The new Ryzen generation is about to be released and the performance increase should be notable. Even if you don't care about that there may be discounts on the outgoing generation.

[Bicurico]

Cheapest option is buying  HP Z600 workstation for 150 Euro and fitting two Xeon X5670. Make sure you get the later motherboard supporting these and buy one taht already comes with two CPUs.
Then fit a SSD and a Geforce GTX860. Buy memory.
Total cost is around 400 Euro for 24 virtual cores,  24GB RAM, GTX and SSD.
Can't beat this price/performance ratio.
Regards,
Vitor

I don't see value in that. Poor performance for what it is and power burner.

OP wants a workstation for CAD (= typical single core application) and rendering (= typical multi core application).

Having a HP Z600 with 2x X5670 will give you 12 cores with HT = 24 logic cores. Ideal for rendering.

This will render faster than a current Core i7 CPU with 4 cores = 8 logic cores, even if they have faster clock and increased performance.

Note that some professional CAD software is not certified for non-Intel CPU's! And yes, some CAD/CAM/CAE applications will not work correctly on AMD processors.

I had issues with customers in the past, so I do stick with Intel processors. Preferrably Core i7. Even with Xeon processors there have been issues.

Same with graphics cards. The nvidia Quadro range is not faster than similar GTX cards - they are just certified for certain CAD/CAM applications. You pay this certification and the fact that the driver/card may unlock some special functionality, that only applies to a given CAD application.

If OP wants to do real professional work with commercial CAD/CAM applications, then he should by all means ask the software provider for the recommended workstation!

Failure in doing so will result in random crashes/freezes and/or lower than expected performance.

If OP wants to run open source, freeware or cracked CAD/CAM applications, then yes, he can try to build his own machine.

Regards,
Vitor

[wraper]

Cheapest option is buying  HP Z600 workstation for 150 Euro and fitting two Xeon X5670. Make sure you get the later motherboard supporting these and buy one taht already comes with two CPUs.
Then fit a SSD and a Geforce GTX860. Buy memory.
Total cost is around 400 Euro for 24 virtual cores,  24GB RAM, GTX and SSD.
Can't beat this price/performance ratio.
Regards,
Vitor

I don't see value in that. Poor performance for what it is and power burner.

OP wants a workstation for CAD (= typical single core application) and rendering (= typical multi core application).

Having a HP Z600 with 2x X5670 will give you 12 cores with HT = 24 logic cores. Ideal for rendering.

This will render faster than a current Core i7 CPU with 4 cores = 8 logic cores, even if they have faster clock and increased performance.

It's slower than 8 core ryzen, eats more than 3x as much electricity and single core performance is important even for rendering. And if you want, you can even use ECC RAM on Ryzen given that you select motherboard that supports it. Not to say Ryzen 3000 series will be released in a week and apparently there is quite significant performance boost.

[wraper]

And yes, some CAD/CAM/CAE applications will not work correctly on AMD processors.

Examples please.

Same with graphics cards. The nvidia Quadro range is not faster than similar GTX cards - they are just certified for certain CAD/CAM applications. You pay this certification and the fact that the driver/card may unlock some special functionality, that only applies to a given CAD application.

Not the same at all. I'm not aware of any CAD that does not work or limits it's performance on non server CPU.

[mnementh]

Y'all know I just rebuilt my AM3 beast in a new case with a modern GPU... Well, that was in preparation for doing a complete update to modern hardware.  I wanted to break the pain up into manageable chunks. 

However my ensuing research showed me just how abysmally far behind the times my machine still is.  Which is to be expected; it's a 10 year old platform. With all I've done so far, it is barely an entry-level gaming rig, and render times are horrifying compared to modern hardware; just as you're finding now.

Don't get me wrong; with the additional $50 outlay for my current FX-8350 (4GHz\8-Core) processor, I DID achieve my modest objective of 1080P/60FPS on my STEAM flight sims while leveraging my investment in RAM and MB a little longer by pretty much maxing out my aging chipset. I don't regret a penny spent so far. 

All that said, I've determined that right now is the WORST possible time to be buying a new MB, especially AMD. The new 570x chipset MBs will be shipping in a few weeks, which will be the first pcie4.0 optimized AM4 boards. They will NOT support 1st Gen Ryzen, but are optimized for Zen2 architecture. On top of this, we don't know yet what families of RAM they will be optimized for. We expect faster DDR4, but possibly DDR5 on the horizon.

Along with this, I'm reading lots of press from chip manufacturers, indicating another quantum jump in RAM manufacturing process is about to go live due to simple turnover; new hardware, new processes being implemented just because the old machinery is outdated and worn out. I'm expecting RAM prices to drop like 2008 again; with 32/64GB Quad-channel builds becoming cheap as chips.

If you're NOT going Threadripper, then you want to wait for the 570x boards to come out so you know what RAM to buy. For a media-rendering build you for sure want the bandwidth of pcie4.0 and Zen2 family processors. But wait... Current market news indicates you're going to be looking at all of $40-60 more for all this quantum-leap in bandwidth, so older chipsets will be heavily deprecated quickly.

If you're looking for absolute best bang/buck, again I'd wait because the bottom is about to fall out from under the current 470/350 chipset boards, and especially 1st Gen Ryzen builds because no pcie4.0 and in some cases not even nvme. You'll be able to pick up current flagship MBs much cheaper and get into a lower level Zen2 CPU which will serve well for a few years, and still remain relevant with a later CPU upgrade. Don't look at ANY board without at least one, preferably 2 nvme capable slots and at least quad-channel 4 RAM slots, as you'll soon be able to double up whatever RAM you buy now for a song.

This is where I'm at right now... As much as I wanna see triple-digit framerates on my new 32in 1440P gaming monitor; I really think the best thing for me and you to do is wait a few months.

mnem
*sent by tickling my Android phone's most tender bits* (then edited for clarity here)

[wraper]

If you're NOT going Threadripper, then you want to wait for the 570x boards to come out so you know what RAM to buy.[/b][/i] For a media-rendering build you for sure want the bandwidth of pcie4.0 and Zen2 family processors. But wait... Current market news indicates you're going to be looking at all of $40-60 more for all this quantum-leap in bandwidth, so older chipsets will be heavily deprecated quickly.

They won't come with DDR5 for sure since there are no modules yet to begin with. It doesn't even need to be X570 since memory controller is built in into CPU. Motherboard specs are already available BTW https://www.amd.com/en/chipsets/x570. Unless for extremely fast NVMe SSD, pcie4.0 has barely any advantage. But even current ones are extremely fast. So you need to do very specific tasks with top notch SSD to feel any difference.

quad-channel RAM, as you'll soon be able to double up whatever RAM you buy now for a song.

Quad channel RAM is only for threadripper. Usual Ryzen has 2 channels, don't confuse that with RAM slots.

[beanflying]

Seems a short delay until the new processors hit the market is warranted  Some of the bigger local suppliers are out of 26 and 2700X processors but unsure if that means sold out or they have run them out prior to the release of the new ones. 

The Motherboard I linked above looks like it will cope with some upcoming Ryzen processors and more memory so it is likely a safe thing should I decide I need a boost in a year or so. https://www.gigabyte.com/au/Motherboard/B450-AORUS-PRO-WIFI-rev-10#support-cpu

Delaying indefinitely because new box/board/processor in coming is and will always be true but at some point you just need to bit the bullet and do it. 

[beanflying]

Cheapest option is buying  HP Z600 workstation for 150 Euro and fitting two Xeon X5670. Make sure you get the later motherboard supporting these and buy one taht already comes with two CPUs.
Then fit a SSD and a Geforce GTX860. Buy memory.
Total cost is around 400 Euro for 24 virtual cores,  24GB RAM, GTX and SSD.
Can't beat this price/performance ratio.
Regards,
Vitor

I don't see value in that. Poor performance for what it is and power burner.

OP wants a workstation for CAD (= typical single core application) and rendering (= typical multi core application).

.....

Double checked and Fusion 360 uses as many cores as it can. 'Modern' CAD btw is certainly not a single core use case, load up a decent size model on an I3 or I5 and see my level of pain 

As to 'certified' GPU's it will be worth a look but I couldn't find anything specific. DaVinci Resolve compatibility/optimisation is more important in my case.

[wraper]

Delaying indefinitely because new box/board/processor in coming is and will always be true but at some point you just need to bit the bullet and do it. 

But buying one week before release of next generation (which on top of that offers huge performance boost) is not wise in any circumstances unless you need it today.

[olkipukki]

Double checked and Fusion 360 uses as many cores as it can. 'Modern' CAD btw is certainly not a single core use case, load up a decent size model on an I3 or I5 and see my level of pain 

It depends... 
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/what-cpu-single-vs-multi-core-in-real-life-(no-games)-future/msg2043952/#msg2043952

As to 'certified' GPU's it will be worth a look but I couldn't find anything specific. DaVinci Resolve compatibility/optimisation is more important in my case.

I would say your above spec just around minimum if you are after 4K stuff in smooth and comfortable workflow; both Fusion and DaVince VRAM hunger...

AMD will release Navi GPU on same day as CPU, so you have another reason to wait 

[beanflying]

Interesting figures on Solidworks. I did some research on the Fusion forum and all the staff seem to say it helps. Still going to be a major step up from what I currently have to play with.

Going back to late last year a few of the Youtube video heads I have followed over time that seemed happy with the Ryzens on Adobe/DaVinci https://youtu.be/Tdoys_HDZYU and it's not what I do for $ it's what I do for fun.

More power More speed always but I have sort of set a budget - Subject to change 

[mnementh]

If you're NOT going Threadripper, then you want to wait for the 570x boards to come out so you know what RAM to buy.[/b][/i] For a media-rendering build you for sure want the bandwidth of pcie4.0 and Zen2 family processors. But wait... Current market news indicates you're going to be looking at all of $40-60 more for all this quantum-leap in bandwidth, so older chipsets will be heavily deprecated quickly.

They won't come with DDR5 for sure since there are no modules yet to begin with. It doesn't even need to be X570 since memory controller is built in into CPU. Motherboard specs are already available BTW https://www.amd.com/en/chipsets/x570. Unless for extremely fast NVMe SSD, pcie4.0 has barely any advantage. But even current ones are extremely fast. So you need to do very specific tasks with top notch SSD to feel any difference.

quad-channel RAM, as you'll soon be able to double up whatever RAM you buy now for a song.

Quad channel RAM is only for threadripper. Usual Ryzen has 2 channels, don't confuse that with RAM slots.

You're absolutely correct on the Quad-channel architecture; that was a simple conflation error. I've just jumped back into it after almost a decade away, so lots and lots of new tech and terminology swirling around the old grey matter.

However, discussion I've read suggesting the possibility of DDR5 support says it would need power supply changes that current chipsets can't provide.

If AMD IS thinking that far ahead, there WILL have to be hardware support on the MB, even though the memory controllers are in the CPU.

Delaying indefinitely because new box/board/processor in coming is and will always be true but at some point you just need to bit the bullet and do it. 

But buying one week before release of next generation (which on top of that offers huge performance boost) is not wise in any circumstances unless you need it today.

Yeah; that is where I was going with my little dissertation.  We're on the cusp of not just an incremental update, but a generational one. This is NOT the time to be jumpy unless you have mission-critical downtime on the line, in which case you'd be buying a turnkey solution with "here yesterday" shipping. 

mnem
"Hasta Lasagna, Baybee!" ~ The Pastanator

[wraper]

However, discussion I've read suggesting the possibility of DDR5 support says it would need power supply changes that current chipsets can't provide.

RAM voltage has nothing to do with chipset.

[mnementh]

However, discussion I've read suggesting the possibility of DDR5 support says it would need power supply changes that current chipsets can't provide.

RAM voltage has nothing to do with chipset.

Oh FFS... the VRM ICs come in families just like the chipset. It IS part of the chipset specification. Now you're just picking nits.    What I've read indicates that DDR5 support will require lower voltages and even tighter ripple tolerances that the currently popular IC families just can't provide with any stability. There WILL have to be different hardware on the MB to even consider DDR5.

We DO know that AMD has been deeply involved with several major RAM manufacturers in developing this new release. That does lend some grain of credibility to the suggestion that DDR5 support is just around the corner as well.

mnem
 

[wraper]

However, discussion I've read suggesting the possibility of DDR5 support says it would need power supply changes that current chipsets can't provide.

RAM voltage has nothing to do with chipset.

Oh FFS... the VRM ICs come in families just like the chipset. It IS part of the chipset specification. Now you're just picking nits. 

Now you are inventing stuff. First of all, it's not like each generation of chipsets come with their own VRM controllers. Although CPU/SoC VRM controllers generally are compliant with Intel/AMD spec (often compatible to both) which changes from time to time. RAM VRM controller usually is a separate dumb chip like RT8120 which is quite typical for Ryzen boards. And even if what you said above was true, nothing prohibits configuring it with lower output voltage.

[tszaboo]

Cheapest option is buying  HP Z600 workstation for 150 Euro and fitting two Xeon X5670. Make sure you get the later motherboard supporting these and buy one taht already comes with two CPUs.
Then fit a SSD and a Geforce GTX860. Buy memory.
Total cost is around 400 Euro for 24 virtual cores,  24GB RAM, GTX and SSD.
Can't beat this price/performance ratio.
Regards,
Vitor

I would go for a Z620 at least. With 2x4 cores. Or a Z420 with 6 cores. Clocks go higher, which matters, and the Z600 is getting old, reliability is questionable. The Z620 is about 5 years old, so leasing companies are duping it on ebay.

[mnementh]

Now you are inventing stuff. First of all, it's not like each generation of chipsets come with their own VRM controllers. Although CPU/SoC VRM controllers generally are compliant with Intel/AMD spec (often compatible to both) which changes from time to time. RAM VRM controller usually is a separate dumb chip like RT8120 which is quite typical for Ryzen boards. And even if what you said above was true, nothing prohibits configuring it with lower output voltage.

And? How does your diagram in any way negate what I just said? Or do you just HAVE to be right, so you just can't even consider the possibility?

mnem
 

[wraper]

Now you are inventing stuff. First of all, it's not like each generation of chipsets come with their own VRM controllers. Although CPU/SoC VRM controllers generally are compliant with Intel/AMD spec (often compatible to both) which changes from time to time. RAM VRM controller usually is a separate dumb chip like RT8120 which is quite typical for Ryzen boards. And even if what you said above was true, nothing prohibits configuring it with lower output voltage.

And? How does your diagram in any way negate what I just said? Or do you just HAVE to be right, so you just can't even consider the possibility?

mnem
 

It perfectly negates what you said that RAM voltage is chipset dependent because of "special kind" of VRM controllers  . Here is an example when it's just a dumb VRM. If motherboard has ability to change voltage, it just tinkers with feedback divider.

[wraper]

Here it is on 5 year old Z97 mobo with DDR3. One of my Ryzen mobos has exactly the same chip.

[mnementh]

It perfectly negates what you said that RAM voltage is chipset dependent because of "special kind" of VRM controllers  . Here is an example when it's just a dumb VRM. If motherboard has ability to change voltage, it just tinkers with feedback divider.

You said "special". I was talking about BETTER. But hey, feel free to counter with obtuseness and attacking made up arguments.

Cheers,

mnem
This is where I sometimes put some pithy remark.

[wraper]

It perfectly negates what you said that RAM voltage is chipset dependent because of "special kind" of VRM controllers  . Here is an example when it's just a dumb VRM. If motherboard has ability to change voltage, it just tinkers with feedback divider.

You said "special". I was talking about BETTER. But hey, feel free to counter with obtuseness and attacking made up arguments.

WHERE you said anything about BETTER? You simply said that VRM cannot do voltage for another type of RAM because VRM is chipset specific. FYI there were examples in the past how same chipset was used on motherboards with different RAM types. Say AMD 790X based motherboards came with DDR2 memory (1.8V) and later appeared motherboards based on it but with DDR3 RAM (1.5V) once AM3 CPUs hit the market.
EDIT:
You later also said:

currently popular IC families just can't provide with any stability.

Which is baseless claim. And I repeat again, RAM VRM controller has nothing to do with chipset. So this point is moot.

[nctnico]

But DDR4 and DDR5 aren't DDR3. These memories run at several GHz and very low voltages. The voltage ripple requirements are much more tight compared to the older type of memories. It is definitely not just a matter of changing a voltage divider!

* I'm currently working on a SoC design which uses DDR4 memory. These things aren't funny but hard core RF design.

[wraper]

But DDR4 and DDR5 aren't DDR3. These memories run at several GHz and very low voltages. The voltage ripple requirements are much more tight than for the older type of memories. It is definitely not just a matter of changing a voltage divider!

There is 0.1V difference with DDR4. I did not say that particular controller should be used with DDR5. What I said that RAM VRM usually is dumb and has nothing to do with chipset.

[mnementh]

It perfectly negates what you said that RAM voltage is chipset dependent because of "special kind" of VRM controllers  . Here is an example when it's just a dumb VRM. If motherboard has ability to change voltage, it just tinkers with feedback divider.

You said "special". I was talking about BETTER. But hey, feel free to counter with obtuseness and attacking made up arguments.

WHERE you said anything about BETTER? You simply said that VRM cannot do voltage for another type of RAM because VRM is chipset specific. FYI there were examples in the past how same chipset was used on motherboards with different RAM types. Say AMD 790X based motherboards came with DDR2 memory (1.8V) and later appeared motherboards based on it but with DDR3 RAM (1.5V) once AM3 CPUs hit the market.
EDIT:
You later also said:

currently popular IC families just can't provide with any stability.

Which is baseless claim. And I repeat again, RAM VRM controller has nothing to do with chipset. So this point is moot.

I said no such thing...

What I've read indicates that DDR5 support will require lower voltages and even tighter ripple tolerances that the currently popular IC families just can't provide with any stability. There WILL have to be different hardware on the MB to even consider DDR5.

We DO know that AMD has been deeply involved with several major RAM manufacturers in developing this new release. That does lend some grain of credibility to the suggestion that DDR5 support is just around the corner as well.

mnem
 

BETTER. Jeezus.

Furthermore, this was JUST CONJECTURAL DISCUSSION. One of THOUSANDS of conversations I read in the last several months while looking into my next step. However, the folks talking were pretty convincing in their conjecture, and I was passing it on as JUST THAT: Discussion I'd read. And yes, I'd love to give you the link to that discussion so you can go there and troll them instead of me, but I've spent more than an hour in the last two days looking, and now I've gotten to the point where I'm all out of GAF.

FFS, this is NOT an engineering thread... it is casual conversation about where to go with bean's next build. Get some effing perspective man. If I AM WRONG, it's not even ME... it's other people. And you are NOT this guy:



You don't need to protect this little corner of the internet from me; please, just get over yourself. Please go stalk someone else.

mnem
Why does every effing random conversation in here have to turn into legal discourse... 

[olkipukki]

Interesting figures on Solidworks.

SolidEdge 

I did some research on the Fusion forum and all the staff seem to say it helps. Still going to be a major step up from what I currently have to play with.

Yes, indeed, but I would prefer, for example, 6 core 4GHz each than 12 - 2.4Ghz

[olkipukki]

I would go for a Z620 at least. With 2x4 cores. Or a Z420 with 6 cores. Clocks go higher, which matters, and the Z600 is getting old, reliability is questionable. The Z620 is about 5 years old, so leasing companies are duping it on ebay.

IMHO,
It will over budget or close to max, 2x E5-26n0 (where n>4) min 3GHz and at least 64GB RAM can last 3-5 years more.
HDD/SSD and video card come with Z620 go straight to the bin, so new M.2 SSD(+adapter?)/video card for OP's tasks anyway.
Well, assuming old-new stuff do not cause any problems.

In our days, native M.2 must by default for any workstation-type workloads

[beanflying]

Interesting figures on Solidworks.

SolidEdge 

I did some research on the Fusion forum and all the staff seem to say it helps. Still going to be a major step up from what I currently have to play with.

Yes, indeed, but I would prefer, for example, 6 core 4GHz each than 12 - 2.4Ghz

Oopsy I had my Autodesk fanboy hat on  Most definitely not that either they still have a way to go to make up for past sins across their software.

Brought a one month bandaid for the Cancer that is upgraditus for my shack HP 8300 work station. Sub $20 USD delivered from locally Quadro 600. No powerhouse but about all it is worth spending on it.

[KC0PPH]

Looks like the thread got derailed.

My workstation is:

AMD Threadripper 1950X
Asus ROG Motherboard
64 Gb RAM
512 M.2 SSD
1TB Spinny HD
EVGA RTX 2070 Graphics Card

The TR is a bit overkill however 1950X is a good option as they have come down in price. It is amazing the power it has doing tasks that are optimized for multi core
The Motherboards are expensive and if you wanted similar performance that will last a decade I would go with a top of the line Ryzen CPU.

As for RAM 16 GB is enough if your not using a lot of VM's. Buy a single 16Gb stick and put it in if you are using Ryzen or 2 8Gb if you are using TR as you can always double your RAM to 32Gb. You get max performance with 2 sticks in Ryzen and 4 sticks in TR, however you can leave room to upgrade later. Looking back 64Gb was stupid to get, although its nice to run 3 VM's with 16gb dedicated to each.


The graphics card is overkill for most applications. You could easily spend half of what I did and still not suffer any in what you want to do. Eventually I want to get an actual workstation graphics card as NVidia limits performance inside VM's (AMD Does not FYI). This point is what I have heard. I run a lot of applications in VM's and do not seem to run into any issues.

Point to story

If the $1200 is a hard limit then get a Ryzen processor, dont skimp on the Motherboard, get 16 gig of ram, 1 500gb M.2 SSD 1 1Tb Spinny HD, and some Grpahics card in the sub $250 range.

Also trust me its hard to get a system built without that RGB crap all over it. I finally managed to figure out how to turn all that shit off. Amazing how much people are into that.

[beanflying]

I have just setup a Synology 4TB raid NAS so at this stage the plan is to go with just an SSD in the box.

Just did an evilbay and Amazon check on my basic spec in the first post. I haven't looked at shaving the prices at all and evilbay has some local reputable suppliers that are cheaper than Amazon on some of the bits without going direct to their sites to check as well.

The pic below is in AUpesos (including our local 10% GST) so x0.7 for USD and it is at circa $1000 USD + tax so there is still some room to move around and see how the upcoming releases play with the pricing.

[mnementh]

I'd still wait and get a 570 board. Everything in your list will PROBABLY work with; plus full support for another generation of chips AND pcie4.0. I paid $US130 for my XFX xXx Edition RX580 8GB; caught it when the bottom fell out from under GPU mining a few months ago. That accidental score was actually what kicked off my own upgrade frenzy...

mnem
*toddling off to ded*

[TERRA Operative]

Has anyone mentioned looking into Quadro cards for the GPU?
Full OpenGL support, great for video editing and specific drivers are available for certain 3D packages.

[CatalinaWOW]

I am like OP in not having upgraded for quite a while, so can't offer much advice.  My only comment is that amazingly, 500 Gbytes seems cramped now days.  CAD files are often huge, video and images grow all the time, and various software packages suck up major space.  Throw in a dual or more operating system and it really is cramped. 

[wraper]

I'd still wait and get a 570 board. Everything in your list will PROBABLY work with; plus full support for another generation of chips AND pcie4.0. I paid $US130 for my XFX xXx Edition RX580 8GB; caught it when the bottom fell out from under GPU mining a few months ago. That accidental score was actually what kicked off my own upgrade frenzy...

mnem
*toddling off to ded*

Apparently they will be $200+

[tszaboo]

I would go for a Z620 at least. With 2x4 cores. Or a Z420 with 6 cores. Clocks go higher, which matters, and the Z600 is getting old, reliability is questionable. The Z620 is about 5 years old, so leasing companies are duping it on ebay.

IMHO,
It will over budget or close to max, 2x E5-26n0 (where n>4) min 3GHz and at least 64GB RAM can last 3-5 years more.
HDD/SSD and video card come with Z620 go straight to the bin, so new M.2 SSD(+adapter?)/video card for OP's tasks anyway.
Well, assuming old-new stuff do not cause any problems.

In our days, native M.2 must by default for any workstation-type workloads

There are sellers on ebay, where you can configure your workstation to your liking. Then you can ask for no HDD+SSD+Video, and use your won. BTW, most likely the video card could stay, since there werent any breakthrough in graphics cards for CAD anyway.
Here is a listing with a freaking 10 core liquid cooled Z420, for half the budget:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Z420-3-00GHz-10-Core-E5-2690-v2-32GB-RAM-500GB-HDD-FX3800-No-OS-Liquid-Cooled/183199535303?hash=item2aa78b10c7:g:08wAAOSwsqdcLLm3
People dont realize that DDR3 ECC memory is stupidly cheap now.

[nctnico]

I second the suggestion to get a used professional workstation from Dell or HP. These have far better thermal management design compared to a generic computer casing. As a result the computer will be more silent and more reliable.

[wraper]

As a result the computer will be more silent and more reliable.

What's for sure, it will be louder compared to custom build with properly selected components.

[sokoloff]

I ran a Z420 at work for years. I have Dell 9020s at home. Both are/were, for all practical purposes, silent in any typical room.

[beanflying]

For what it is worth I will say it again I am in this case reluctant to go down the path of second hand maxxed out and used. And it may still be right for others but I choose NO.

Given my Video processing requirement something around 6-8Gb of GPU is going to be required based on my research regardless of the base unit. Looking at recycled servers in Oz and adding video and an SSD would see the $ upward of 60% of a new build with very limited to nil prospects of further or future upgrades, not something I see as a good option going forward.

[mnementh]

I'd still wait and get a 570 board. Everything in your list will PROBABLY work with; plus full support for another generation of chips AND pcie4.0. I paid $US130 for my XFX xXx Edition RX580 8GB; caught it when the bottom fell out from under GPU mining a few months ago. That accidental score was actually what kicked off my own upgrade frenzy...

mnem
*toddling off to ded*

Apparently they will be $200+

From what's been listed so far, $40-60 more than equivalent 470 chipset boards, as I stated in my original "dissertation". I think that's definitely where you want to not cheap out.

For what it is worth I will say it again I am in this case reluctant to go down the path of second hand maxxed out and used. And it may still be right for others but I choose NO.

Given my Video processing requirement something around 6-8Gb of GPU is going to be required based on my research regardless of the base unit. Looking at recycled servers in Oz and adding video and an SSD would see the $ upward of 60% of a new build with very limited to nil prospects of further or future upgrades, not something I see as a good option going forward.

In general, I agree. But I would NOT overlook the opportunity to save some bucks towards other components by carefully shopping used video cards. There are still deals like mine above to be had; I got it like new in box with everything for half the price of new. I'm certain it was used for several months in a GPU mining rig, as it's a dual-firmware model with factory OC; but it was obviously well-cared-for and all the Abuse-mark testing I could dish out to it just laughed at me.   

mnem
*back into my hole*

[wraper]

In general, I agree. But I would NOT overlook the opportunity to save some bucks towards other components by carefully shopping used video cards. There are still deals like mine above to be had; I got it like new in box with everything for half the price of new. I'm certain it was used for several months in a GPU mining rig, as it's a dual-firmware model with factory OC; but it was obviously well-cared-for and all the Abuse-mark testing I could dish out to it just laughed at me.   

Those bucks which you "will save" will bite you in the ass as electricity cost unless you live in Russia with their tiny electricity price. People underappreciate how much electricity is actually consumed by computer which runs for significant time. In it's lifetime money paid for electricity likely to exceed cost of computer itself, often multiple times. If you run something like $400 9y old dual xeon for and use somewhere like in Australia, you very likely will pay it's cost as electricity in less than a year.

[mnementh]

Bean has already stated that an 8GB RX580 is part of the design spec. And that still doesn't make carefully shopped used video cards any less of a good idea.

mnem
 

[nctnico]

As a result the computer will be more silent and more reliable.

What's for sure, it will be louder compared to custom build with properly selected components.

You really have no idea what you are talking about. A standard casing is no match for a casing which is designed from A to Z (which includes placement of the CPU and memory on the motherboard) to have optimum cooling. Sure you can mount low noise fans in a standard casing but you'll be burning up the components in the process and/or run your GPU and processor at snail speed because they go into thermal protection.

[wraper]

As a result the computer will be more silent and more reliable.

What's for sure, it will be louder compared to custom build with properly selected components.

You really have no idea what you are talking about. A standard casing is no match for a casing which is designed from A to Z (which includes placement of the CPU and memory on the motherboard) to have optimum cooling.

I'm sitting near to PC I assembled myself and the only thing which is barely audible in a completely silent room is PSU. I got rid of all HDD and replaced with SSD because even quietest of them were the loudest thing in the system.
 

Sure you can mount low noise fans in a standard casing but you'll be burning up the components in the process and/or run your GPU and processor at snail speed because they go into thermal protection.

Barely any workstation runs as cool as my PC. And when it comes to GPU, most of workstations won't provide good cooling unless you use GPU with noisy blower fan which blows the air outside of computer. And frankly you need to do something very wrong when building PC to make it possible for CPU to throttle. Like using inadequate CPU cooler in a cheap case which has poor ventilation and zero fans.

[olkipukki]

There are sellers on ebay, where you can configure your workstation to your liking. Then you can ask for no HDD+SSD+Video, and use your won. BTW, most likely the video card could stay, since there werent any breakthrough in graphics cards for CAD anyway.

I'm afraid, this is not a case.

Here is a listing with a freaking 10 core liquid cooled Z420, for half the budget:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Z420-3-00GHz-10-Core-E5-2690-v2-32GB-RAM-500GB-HDD-FX3800-No-OS-Liquid-Cooled/183199535303?hash=item2aa78b10c7:g:08wAAOSwsqdcLLm3

Add OP's SSD and video card, and you up to max budget. Also, very likely OP's PC would faster than above. 

People dont realize that DDR3 ECC memory is stupidly cheap now.

Not really  , if you compare new DDR3 vs DDR4  , except stuff from Ebay with million hours usage time...

[sokoloff]

People dont realize that DDR3 ECC memory is stupidly cheap now.

Not really  , if you compare new DDR3 vs DDR4  , except stuff from Ebay with million hours usage time...

Why wouldn't you compare whatever was most reasonable to buy, realizing that ECC memory with 45K hours (5 years) of run time is perfectly fine to run another 45K hours?

[olkipukki]

I second the suggestion to get a used professional workstation from Dell or HP. These have far better thermal management design compared to a generic computer casing. As a result the computer will be more silent and more reliable.

In general, yes, but questionable.

The last pre-build workstation that I used to be Z820, very solid and well designed, with one exception - loud, very load under "a load".
That's not surprise consider a case/fan sizes and inside stuff that need to be cool down.

As wrapper mentioned, you can select right components to a narrow down the issue.

[nctnico]

The amount of noise depends on the type of workstation. The higher end ones stay quiet under load. I have a Dell 5810 which stays whisper quiet even when loaded 100%. The external hard drive makes more noise.

[olkipukki]

People dont realize that DDR3 ECC memory is stupidly cheap now.

Not really  , if you compare new DDR3 vs DDR4  , except stuff from Ebay with million hours usage time...

Why wouldn't you compare whatever was most reasonable to buy, realizing that ECC memory with 45K hours (5 years) of run time is perfectly fine to run another 45K hours?

What we are comparing here? 

For me, reasonable to buy new DDR4 only right now for a new PC.

A few months ago I bought used 64GB DDR3 ECC UDIMMs that 2x times more expensive than RDIMMs I can find.
Yes, these were cheaper than similar DDR4, but not "stupidly cheap" (at least for me)

[olkipukki]

The amount of noise depends on the type of workstation. The higher end ones stay quiet under load. I have a Dell 5810 which stays whisper quiet even when loaded 100%. The external hard drive makes more noise.

Z820 was a high-end in HP range.

[sokoloff]

People dont realize that DDR3 ECC memory is stupidly cheap now.

Not really  , if you compare new DDR3 vs DDR4  , except stuff from Ebay with million hours usage time...

Why wouldn't you compare whatever was most reasonable to buy, realizing that ECC memory with 45K hours (5 years) of run time is perfectly fine to run another 45K hours?

What we are comparing here? 

For me, reasonable to buy new DDR4 only right now for a new PC.

A few months ago I bought used 64GB DDR3 ECC UDIMMs that 2x times more expensive than RDIMMs I can find.
Yes, these were cheaper than similar DDR4, but not "stupidly cheap" (at least for me)

I've recently bought (used) DDR3 ECC UDIMMs for about $1.90/GB.
DDR4 ECC seems to be more like $4.00-$5.00/GB in the used market and on the high end of that range in the new market. (Given that it's about the same price and new is easier to buy in many ways, sure, why not buy new?)

[mnementh]

mnem
 

[olkipukki]

I've recently bought (used) DDR3 ECC UDIMMs for about $1.90/GB.

It cost me ~$3.50/GB (~$28 for 8GB module)

[beanflying]

Bean has already stated that an 8GB RX580 is part of the design spec. And that still doesn't make carefully shopped used video cards any less of a good idea.

mnem
 

As per the opening post the GPU is the part of the spec that is rubbery between new or used. Tracking some local evilbay auctions for used sees them well over 50% and toward 70% new price. A 20% bargain would be a miracle and I have used up my Jammy Git points on TEA items

Some completed Auctions here

Leaning toward paying the $ for new to avoid a potentially heat treated and  one.

[mnementh]

Oh, that's right bean... I forgot the comparatively limited selection available on fleaBay Down Under. Over here I'm seeing XFX 8GB non-OC Edition RX580s as low as $US90 shipped as "Used, good working". I doubt you'll likely find what I did as readily. 

In my defense, I DID say "Carefully shopped used", which you clearly have been doing.

mnem
 

[mnementh]

Found this in my feed this morning. Linus does a budget gaming build project that was seeded by a strange "China-direct tertiary market-marketed" MB find during his CompuTex coverage. 

mnem
"Damned clever..."

[beanflying]

Think I will pass on recycled chip Motherboards 

Ran across this today https://pcpartpicker.com/list/ If it is correct I should have brought a few weeks ago 

[mnementh]

Or a few weeks from now... 

I was just sharing something tangentially related. That video reminded me that all the things we've been discussing are definitely first world problems. 

mnem
All things are relative. All relatives are things. My relatives take all my things... 

[mnementh]

BLEEP!ing MicroCenter... just when I thought my resolve to wait was locked in...

   https://www.microcenter.com/site/products/amd_bundles.aspx#2600

mnem
*wibble*

[beanflying]

We are starting to get a few reductions this end too. 2700X's are available about 8-10% down. Samsung to help out has a cashback on SSD's until the end of the month. Also Amazon Prime days in a bit over a week and evilbayplus will get me 5% off most bits until the end of the month.

Going to wait and see where the 3700X sits but the other reductions might see me grab one over the 2700X.

Time to splurge is soon 

[mnementh]

Yeah, the bastards have the 2600X for $140. Hard not to jump on it at that price, as it is 99% likely compatible with the new 570 boards.
mnem
 

[beanflying]

Given the likely cost of the 570 boards spending more $ on the processor and a lower but acceptably optioned board seems to make sense? The board I linked in post one will run most on the 7nm releases it seems.

[beanflying]

2am and binge watching youtube talking heads instead of 

Seems the 570 boards are not needed to get the punch out of the 3700X for most jobs B450's will do. Power consumption is a great improvement over the 2700X too. 95% a done deal for me at this stage.

[mnementh]

It's a pcie4.0 world, my friend. Or it will be in less than a year. 

Given what I've seen from leaked pricing, the 570 boards will be $40-60 more than equivalent 470 boards. There is where I'd spend til it hurts for best lifetime from that expenditure. Today's polymer-electrolyte capacitors and the name-brand manufacturers' current tendency to over-build the VRM rather than under-build make this a MUCH safer investment than back in the SOYO Dragon days.

I'd buy the best 570 board (minimum: 4 RAM Slots, 2 nvme-capable M.2 slots) and 2 modules/at least 16GB of the fastest known-compatible DDR4 RAM (DDR4-3200 minimum, I'd guess) I can afford first, and then the highest-on-the-foodchain 2xx0X Zen2 processor I can scrape the money together for after that. I'd even hold off on a nvme boot drive if I had any decent SSD to use; spend that money on better RAM/CPU. I'm expecting a new crop of larger MLC as opposed to TLC drives soon. The demand for faster MLC SSDs as boot drives (with a larger, slower TLC as data storage in a 2nd M.2 slot) is fast becoming the standard arrangement for performance builds.

Next on the agenda would be... as best price/capacity deals vs money come available... buy matching part # DIMMs to double up my existing RAM, and biggest MLC nvme SSD I can afford for a boot drive. Relegate existing SSD to data storage, then finally clone over & replace with a TLC nvme drive in the 2nd slot. EVEN the slowest TLC nvme drives now available are 5x-10x as fast as you can get from SATA; this gap will only embiggen as pcie4.x becomes the standard.

Anyways... this is generally the battle plan I've used for every major upgrade I've done in the last 3 decades: Buy the most advanced MB I can afford in the brand I prefer (usually ASUS/AMD), then most quantity/fastest RAM (Spend til it hurts on these two), then best bang/buck CPU available at the time that will run on that MB. Don't give a damn if you aren't running the RAM to its maximum speed; as CPU deals come along and upgrade money comes available, then buy the next up on the food chain CPU until I maxx out the board. Use it until it no longer serves as a gaming/workstation, then replace the daily-driver web-surfing machine with it & start the next build.

It's true that getting 10 years out of my old PhenomII 1055T is a little long to stretch such an investment even for me; but the fact I could do that shows how well this strategy can keep you in a usable machine and truly get you both best performance you can afford AND best bang for the buck over time.   

mnem
*Veteran of a Thousand Psychic Wars PC Builds*

[Mr. Scram]

PCIe 4.0 is unlikely to yield meaningful gains anytime soon. It's likely the impact is going to be even smaller than the upgrade from PCIe 2.0 to 3.0 was and that hasn't been noticeable outside of benchmarks for years and arguably still isn't. If you don't need to money for other parts then sure. Unless you're doing very specific things spending money on vast amounts of RAM isn't going to increase performance. It's not uncommon for it even to slightly hurt performance, as the controller has to work harder but programs aren't benefiting from the available RAM. Running out of RAM hurts, but even in a world where OS's try to utilize idle RAM having an excess is a bit of a waste.

One problem we see is that a couple of hard and fast rules sometimes go overboard and the market landscape isn't what you could reasonably predict. We've seen RAM, HDDs and GPUs all become stupidly expensive for their individual couple of years. Then there's the handicap of a head start, where investing heavily in top tier components means they're often too expensive to ditch but are already lagging in performance just a short while later. It seems you just have to roll the dice and hope for some luck.

[mnementh]

That depends on your definition of soon. Within 3 months, no. 6 months, probably. A year, ABSOLUTELY.

I don't see spending $40-60 more (or even $80, if you're dead-set on an apples-to-oranges comparison against B-Family boards) as a LARGE investment against future-proofing. Ignoring pcie4.0 RIGHT NOW is foolhardy in the extreme.

16/32GB of RAM is not "VAST".  16GB has been my bare minimum build for literally a decade. 32GB is now my minimum; I only suggested 16GB TO START. I work in this business. 32GB workstations have been commonplace in the wild for years; I'm seeing 64GB builds now for content-creation.

bean HAS STATED he is doing VERY SPECIFIC THINGS. Things that are by definition bandwidth-hungry. THAT is why I stand behind my recommendation of pcie4.0 as a minimum requirement. To get full speed out of BOTH nvme m.2 slots it is the only way; and unless you want to shell out for a ~1TB MLC nvme SSD, you'll be living with a single slow TLC SSD as both boot/data. Even a 0.5-1.0TB MLC as both will still run considerably slower than MLC nvme-boot+nvme-data drive in bandwidth-hungry applications like content-creation.

mnem
 

[Mr. Scram]

That depends on your definition of soon. Within 3 months, no. 6 months, probably. A year, ABSOLUTELY.

I don't see spending $40-60 more (or even $80, if you're dead-set on an apples-to-oranges comparison against B-Family boards) as a LARGE investment against future-proofing. Ignoring pcie4.0 RIGHT NOW is foolhardy in the extreme.

16/32GB of RAM is not "VAST".  16GB has been my bare minimum build for literally a decade. 32GB is now my minimum; I only suggested 16GB TO START. I work in this business. 32GB workstations have been commonplace in the wild for years; I'm seeing 64GB builds now for content-creation.

bean HAS STATED he is doing VERY SPECIFIC THINGS. Things that are by definition bandwidth-hungry. THAT is why I stand behind my recommendation of pcie4.0 as a minimum requirement. To get full speed out of BOTH nvme m.2 slots it is the only way; and unless you want to shell out for a ~1TB MLC nvme SSD, you'll be living with a single slow TLC SSD as both boot/data. Even a 0.5-1.0TB MLC as both will still run considerably slower than MLC nvme-boot+nvme-data drive in bandwidth-hungry applications like content-creation.

mnem
 

No way that a year is going to make any difference. The difference between PCIe 2.0 and 3.0 was more pronounced relatively speaking and that didn't make a discernable difference when anyone was running PCIe 2.0 in anger. It tooks years for any relevant difference to develop and that's debatable too. The moment that the first person is going to use his computer and actually notice a difference because he doesn't have PCIe 4.0 is many years in the future. If you don't have anything else to spend your money on PCIe 4.0 is a consideration, but spending the money on something like a faster graphics card is much more likely to yield noticable results. 32 GB of RAM at this point is money wasted, unless the specific use cases I've mentioned iin my previous comment apply to you. The benchmarking review below shows the difference between 8 GB and 16 GB being negligible. "8GB should be the minimum standard, while 16GB is desirable but not needed." If we look at beanflying's case, he should take a long hard look at what he's expecting to do and how this stresses the system exactly. Most of the major applications have been benchmarked in detail. Some programs can't get enough RAM while others don't benefit at all or even top out at a specific amount. The trick is not to throw money at the wall to see what sticks, but to tailor your system to your needs. Workstation builders like Puget do extensive benchmarks and build systems that play into the requirements of the applications they're expected to run.

https://www.techspot.com/article/1043-8gb-vs-16gb-ram/page4.html

[mnementh]

We aren't talking about grandfather's eMail machine here. Well, you are. I'm not. 

If you're going to stand there and try to say that a $40 premium... or even $80... for the latest family of MBs is "throwing money at the wall", I'm going to laugh in your face. That is the foundation of your build, and I'd certainly much more trust the money spent there and going with a known-reliable CPU like the 2700X rather than the cheapest possible old MB that we know only partially supports a brand-new untested generation of CPUs.

I've argued for years that MS memory management is crap, and that it doesn't know what to do with more than ~8GB. Fortunately, other software creators DO know how to use it, and know how to use it from within MS' effed up HAL. That is exactly the kind of software bean has stated he wants to be able to use with this build. 16GB, which is what I recommended, is a good start for that; with expansion to 32GB at a LATER date.

What you say was true... years ago. Not now. You clearly have no idea what's on the horizon... I do; it's all I've been researching for several months now. If 32GB was such a waste of money, I know for a fact I wouldn't be seeing it in the corporate fleet machines I service for a living; and I've been seeing it for almost 2 years. Clearly not ALL of them, or even most... but in certain offices, I've seen 6 of them in a row with twin & triple 32" monitors. And corporate bean-counters, the kind who bitch about a $600 Lenovo laptop,  paid for all that without batting an eye. 

Cheers,

mnem
"Good luck, and may your god go with you." Dave Allen

[wraper]

We aren't talking about grandfather's eMail machine here. Well, you are. I'm not. 

I've argued for years that MS memory management is crap, and that it doesn't know what to do with more than ~8GB. Fortunately, other software creators DO know how to use it, and know how to use it from within MS' effed up HAL. That is exactly the kind of software bean has stated he wants to be able to use with this build.

What you say was true... years ago. Not now. You clearly have no idea what's on the horizon... I do; it's all I've been researching for several months now. If 32GB was such a waste of money, I know for a fact I wouldn't be seeing it in the corporate fleet machines I service for a living; and I've been seeing it for almost 2 years. Clearly not ALL of them, or even most... but in certain offices, I've seen 6 of them in a row with twin & triple 32" monitors. And corporate bean-counters, the kind who bitch about a $600 Lenovo laptop,  paid for all that without batting an eye. 

Cheers,

mnem
"Good luck, and may your god go with you." Dave Allen

99% of people don't need 32GB, neither they will need it when throwing out their currently brand new computer. Unless you do very specific tasks which require a lot of RAM, it's a waste of money. For video rendering 32GB is desirable, although you probably will get more performance from better CPU bought for that extra money. Depends on applications that you use and video resolution.
The same goes for PCI-E 4.0, which is only good for ultra fast SSD or ridiculously high speed network cards. Unless you do specific tasks, you won't even notice difference between NVMe and SATA SSD, not to say fastest PCI-E 3.0 NVMe and something that is even faster than that.

[beanflying]

PCIe 4 as the reason to 'downgrade' the processor to the 2700x and overbuy the board to keep somewhere near a budget doesn't make sense to me.

If there becomes an all consuming need to go PCIe 4 on my main box at some stage the B450 board could have a Ryzen G CPU added to it and dropped into a second cheap box leaving the better processor/GPU to go into a 550 or 570 board.

Repeating this same upgrade exercise in a year might see a different conclusion as prices/tech moves around but currently it doesn't.

[Mr. Scram]

We aren't talking about grandfather's eMail machine here. Well, you are. I'm not. 

I've argued for years that MS memory management is crap, and that it doesn't know what to do with more than ~8GB. Fortunately, other software creators DO know how to use it, and know how to use it from within MS' effed up HAL. That is exactly the kind of software bean has stated he wants to be able to use with this build.

What you say was true... years ago. Not now. You clearly have no idea what's on the horizon... I do; it's all I've been researching for several months now. If 32GB was such a waste of money, I know for a fact I wouldn't be seeing it in the corporate fleet machines I service for a living; and I've been seeing it for almost 2 years. Clearly not ALL of them, or even most... but in certain offices, I've seen 6 of them in a row with twin & triple 32" monitors. And corporate bean-counters, the kind who bitch about a $600 Lenovo laptop,  paid for all that without batting an eye. 

Cheers,

mnem
"Good luck, and may your god go with you." Dave Allen

This argument from authority isn't going to fly. Facts matter, not "having done the research", "working in the business" or anything else. Experience is only worth something if it produces something of value. What others have in their systems isn't entirely relevant either, as there's lots of poop flying in the industry with plenty of obtuse monkeys at the wheel. What matters are benchmarks, and a bit of historical sense probably helps too. Other people also know the market landscape, the history and what's on the horizon.

I've shown hard numbers on how 8 GB is enough for general computing and 16 GB plenty. I've also addressed workstation use cases which can warrant more, but those need to be carefully examined to blindly avoid throwing cash at it. That's how the industry does it. We know beanflying is intending to use Fusion 360, but it's not entirely clear what kind of rendering he's intending to do with what software. Maybe he can elaborate? Different applications have very different needs and limitations.

Apparently Fusion 360 doesn't require remarkable amounts of RAM. Apparently it also uses up to 8 cores but not always. Some computations are offloaded to "the cloud". A higher clock speed is apparently preferred over more than 8 cores which are slower, so the new Ryzen 7 chips sound perfect for this application at least.

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/fusion-360-design-validate/shall-i-buy-a-lot-more-ram/td-p/7828824
https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/fusion-360-support/fusion-360-system-requirements/td-p/7377880

[nctnico]

For engineering tasks 8GB isn't going to cut it. Modern software is so bloated that it needs oodles of memory. When planning on using a few virtual machines then 16GB is cutting it awfully close and 32GB is a better choice. Either way, memory is so cheap nowadays that it isn't worth bothering to choose 8GB versus 16GB. Just get 16GB and make sure to leave room for expansion. For my own PC I couldn't even buy a 16GB memory upgrade because it was no longer available; I had to buy 32GB.

[Mr. Scram]

For engineering tasks 8GB isn't going to cut it. Modern software is so bloated that it needs oodles of memory. When planning on using a few virtual machines then 16GB is cutting it awfully close and 32GB is a better choice. Either way, memory is so cheap nowadays that it isn't worth bothering to choose 8GB versus 16GB. Just get 16GB and make sure to leave room for expansion. For my own PC I couldn't even buy a 16GB memory upgrade because it was no longer available; I had to buy 32GB.

The links I posted before show that Fusion 360 doesn't really require more than 8 GB RAM. I won't comment on "engineering tasks" as those can be almost anything and everything. Mind you that I'm not necessarily pleading for 8 GB of RAM. I'm just arguing against throwing RAM at something blindly. VMs are one of those things you nearly can't have enough RAM for, although you can get by with smaller amounts. I don't think I've heard beanflying mention VMs at all, so that eventuality is left out of the equation.

At this point I'd probably suggest going for 16 GB of RAM, based on general computing and Fusion 360 and to have some future headroom. Depending on other requirements and what this not very well defined rendering actually entails it may pay to upgrade to more.

[wraper]

For my own PC I couldn't even buy a 16GB memory upgrade because it was no longer available; I had to buy 32GB.

Why would you buy so called memory upgrade, not just any off the shelf memory sticks?

[nctnico]

For my own PC I couldn't even buy a 16GB memory upgrade because it was no longer available; I had to buy 32GB.

Why would you buy so called memory upgrade, not just any off the shelf memory sticks?

memory upgrade=off the shelf memory sticks

[Mr. Scram]

memory upgrade=off the shelf memory sticks

What kind of exotic memory does your setup require? It seems DDR3 and DDR4 are available in regular, registered and unregistered ECC variants down to 4 GB if you want to make use of quad channel setups.  I don't even think DDR2 should be a problem.

[wraper]

BTW in regards to SSD, it's way more cost effective to buy SM2262EN controller based SSD like ADATA SX8200 Pro or HP EX950. They are just as fast as top of the line Samsung but way cheaper. Also energy efficient, thus don't run too hot as many others.
EDIT: Locally I can buy 1TB version For $25 more than 500GB 970 EVO plus. On newegg about the same situation.
https://www.newegg.com/samsung-970-evo-plus-500gb/p/N82E16820147742?Description=SAMSUNG%20970%20EVO%20plus&cm_re=SAMSUNG_970_EVO_plus-_-20-147-742-_-Product
https://www.newegg.com/xpg-sx8200-pro-1tb/p/0D9-0017-000W4?Description=xpg%208200%20pro%201tb&cm_re=xpg_8200_pro_1tb-_-0D9-0017-000W4-_-Product
500GB upgrade with minimal cost

[wraper]

For my own PC I couldn't even buy a 16GB memory upgrade because it was no longer available; I had to buy 32GB.

Why would you buy so called memory upgrade, not just any off the shelf memory sticks?

memory upgrade=off the shelf memory sticks

...Sold as memory upgrade for particular model. Otherwise I don't get how 16 GB was not available  .

[mnementh]

PCIe 4 as the reason to 'downgrade' the processor to the 2700x and overbuy the board to keep somewhere near a budget doesn't make sense to me.

If there becomes an all consuming need to go PCIe 4 on my main box at some stage the B450 board could have a Ryzen G CPU added to it and dropped into a second cheap box leaving the better processor/GPU to go into a 550 or 570 board.

Repeating this same upgrade exercise in a year might see a different conclusion as prices/tech moves around but currently it doesn't.

Sorry... I was looking at your stated budget. If you CAN pay the premium price for a 3900 Ryzen, GO FOR IT! 

I wasn't suggesting to downgrade your CPU; I was suggesting the 2700X as I guessed it was the highest you could go and still have 16GB of reasonably fast DDR4 and a name-brand 570X MB.

CPUs ALWAYS come down in price; and sooner rather than later. They are by far a simpler and less painful upgrade than a MB swap for the features you WISH you'd sucked it up and paid for at the outset. But the price of a decent name-brand MB with a full current-model feature-set has been $125-175 for decades now. Trying to come in under that is always a trade-off. I've learned the hard way that buying the cheapest MB that will support a CPU is penny-wise & pound foolish. You are ALWAYS giving up some current-model features, or a getting a board that simply is CHEAP or has effed-up BIOS that never gets fixed. (ASROCK, I'm LOOKING AT YOU  )

Look at the MBs you're thinking of... and compare them to the feature-set of the 570. And remember that AMD is concurrently releasing a whole new family of GPUs that most likely will leverage pcie4.0 for multi-GPU processing. I just don't see the benefit of choosing a lesser MB that's going to be strangling your hot new CPU in some critical way; especially not to save $40-60.

But hey, it's your build.

Cheers,

mnem
*toddles off to fix another air compressor*

[nctnico]

memory upgrade=off the shelf memory sticks

What kind of exotic memory does your setup require? It seems DDR3 and DDR4 are available in regular, registered and unregistered ECC variants down to 4 GB if you want to make use of quad channel setups.  I don't even think DDR2 should be a problem.

Not very exotic just memory from Kingston for a specific Dell model which goes in bundles of 4 DIMMs. Kingston memory has served me well for over 25 years (and many hundreds of memory devices) so let's not start a debate on that.

[wraper]

CPUs ALWAYS come down in price; and sooner rather than later. They are by far a simpler and less painful upgrade than a MB swap for the features you WISH you'd sucked it up and paid for at the outset. But the price of a decent name-brand MB with a full current-model feature-set has been $125-175 for decades now. Trying to come in under that is always a trade-off. I've learned the hard way that buying the cheapest MB that will support a CPU is penny-wise & pound foolish. You are ALWAYS giving up some current-model features, or a getting a board that simply is CHEAP or has effed-up BIOS that never gets fixed. (ASROCK, I'm LOOKING AT YOU  )

Paying a lot more for MOBO to just have a little better possible upgradability path makes little sense. Just as little sense as selecting CPU with sure intention to replace it later. If later there happens cost effective way for doing that, good. However in the end the most cost effective way likely will be to not replace anything and just go with better CPU from the beginning unless it has ridiculous cost. Because if there will be a lot better replacement available, old CPU will have little resale value. And by that time you could just buy new cheap MOBO supporting PCI-E 4.0 anyway.

[mnementh]

Would you please stop repeating this noise about "paying a lot more"?!? It's utter BS. $40-80 is NOT a lot more. PERIOD.

mnem
*mild expletive deleted*

[wraper]

Would you SHUT UP about "paying a lot more"?!? It's BULLSHIT!!! $40-80 is NOT a lot more. PERIOD.

Over 50% more for the part is a lot. And it's not $40 compared with B450 chipset.

Post edited by Halcyon. Quotes removed text which goes against the forum rules. The on-topic content was retained.

[sokoloff]

"The arguments are so fierce, because the stakes are so low..."

[mnementh]

Here's my quick thumbnail cost analysis; exclusive of the usual "sundries" which I'm pretty sure bean has plenty:

$150 - +/- Decent Case
$180 - 570X MB
$140 - DDR4 (Corsair Vegeance 32GB DDR4-3200; now sold out) Still average price for decent
$120 - Decent PSU
$125 - nvme SSD ~0.5GB

That leaves ~$285 for video and CPU, + approx 30-50$ if you go with 16GB of name-brand DDR4. The 3600X is available right now for $US249.00 shipped from Amazon. The 3700 is listed right now at $329 pre-order from B&H Photo and the 3900 at $499, just as suggested in the press release.

mnem
 

[Mr. Scram]

Not very exotic just memory from Kingston for a specific Dell model which goes in bundles of 4 DIMMs. Kingston memory has served me well for over 25 years (and many hundreds of memory devices) so let's not start a debate on that.

I thought it was unlikely RAM wasn't available in 4 GB sticks, but you had some additional personal wishes. Now I understand.

[Mr. Scram]

Would you SHUT UP about "paying a lot more"?!? It's BULLSHIT!!! $40-80 is NOT a lot more. PERIOD.

mnem
Infant.

It can mean moving the GPU up one or two notches, upgrading the from 512 GB to 1 TB or even from 1 TB to 2 TB or adding 16 GB of RAM perhaps.  Depending on your needs and wants those could yield more noticeable gains than adding bandwidth.

[nctnico]

CPUs ALWAYS come down in price; and sooner rather than later. They are by far a simpler and less painful upgrade than a MB swap for the features you WISH you'd sucked it up and paid for at the outset. But the price of a decent name-brand MB with a full current-model feature-set has been $125-175 for decades now. Trying to come in under that is always a trade-off. I've learned the hard way that buying the cheapest MB that will support a CPU is penny-wise & pound foolish. You are ALWAYS giving up some current-model features, or a getting a board that simply is CHEAP or has effed-up BIOS that never gets fixed. (ASROCK, I'm LOOKING AT YOU  )

Paying a lot more for MOBO to just have a little better possible upgradability path makes little sense. Just as little sense as selecting CPU with sure intention to replace it later. If later there happens cost effective way for doing that, good. However in the end the most cost effective way likely will be to not replace anything and just go with better CPU from the beginning unless it has ridiculous cost. Because if there will be a lot better replacement available, old CPU will have little resale value. And by that time you could just buy new cheap MOBO supporting PCI-E 4.0 anyway.

I agree. Back in the old days (20 years ago or so) it made sense to buy a motherboard which allowed a CPU upgrade. I think I have upgraded the CPU 3 times in some of my PCs back then. But the last 10 years it is hard to buy a CPU for the same motherboard and get a really significant performance update unless you started with a real clunker to start with. I'd rather spend the money on getting a good quality motherboard though.

Nowadays it makes much more sense to look at other bottlenecks like disk I/O which slow a system down. Going for an NVME SSD (which connects directly to the PCIexpress bus) is a good start to get a performance boost.

[wraper]

$150 - +/- Decent Case
$180 - 570X MB
$140 - DDR4 (Corsair Vegeance 32GB DDR4-3200; now sold out) Still average price for decent
$120 - Decent PSU
$125 - nvme SSD ~0.5GB

$60-70 for a very good case without RGB fart and other stupid whistles.
$100 MOBO
$70-80 good efficient PSU with Japanese caps and more than adequate power rating of 550-650W.
$140 1TB NVMe SSD just as fast as 970 EVO plus.
And 180+ bucks left for other more important things such as CPU.

[mnementh]

There we go... I was wondering how long before you to resort to personal attack (in now deleted post), because your arguments are childish and your math utterly irrational, just like your fawning diatribe all over the "Elon Musk sucks" thread. 

mnem
*edited to reduce aggro tone*

[wraper]

There we go... finally. Resorted to personal attack, because your arguments are infantile and your math is equivalent to 2+2=3, just like your fawning diatribe all over the "Elon Musk sucks" thread. 

LOL, does not notice huge log in own eye. 

[mnementh]

CPUs ALWAYS come down in price; and sooner rather than later. They are by far a simpler and less painful upgrade than a MB swap for the features you WISH you'd sucked it up and paid for at the outset. But the price of a decent name-brand MB with a full current-model feature-set has been $125-175 for decades now. Trying to come in under that is always a trade-off. I've learned the hard way that buying the cheapest MB that will support a CPU is penny-wise & pound foolish. You are ALWAYS giving up some current-model features, or a getting a board that simply is CHEAP or has effed-up BIOS that never gets fixed. (ASROCK, I'm LOOKING AT YOU  )

Paying a lot more for MOBO to just have a little better possible upgradability path makes little sense. Just as little sense as selecting CPU with sure intention to replace it later. If later there happens cost effective way for doing that, good. However in the end the most cost effective way likely will be to not replace anything and just go with better CPU from the beginning unless it has ridiculous cost. Because if there will be a lot better replacement available, old CPU will have little resale value. And by that time you could just buy new cheap MOBO supporting PCI-E 4.0 anyway.

I agree. Back in the old days (20 years ago or so) it made sense to buy a motherboard which allowed a CPU upgrade. I think I have upgraded the CPU 3 times in some of my PCs back then. But the last 10 years it is hard to buy a CPU for the same motherboard and get a really significant performance update unless you started with a real clunker to start with. I'd rather spend the money on getting a good quality motherboard though.

Nowadays it makes much more sense to look at other bottlenecks like disk I/O which slow a system down. Going for an NVME SSD (which connects directly to the PCIexpress bus) is a good start to get a performance boost.

Oh FFS... $40-80 is nothing. I've spent more than that just for quieter fans. 

The pcie bus is PRECISELY why I recommended the 570X series boards; even on the 470X boards it is already a bottleneck in the disk I/O dept, even with nvme.  There won't BE any economical 550 series boards to offer the pcie4.0 bus for a while yet. This is literally a generational update from AMD, not an incremental one. 

With pcie4.0, there is a real possibility of doing nvme in RAID0, possibly even more than 2 drives for other RAID configs given how many more channels pcie4.0 offers. For that possibility alone it is worth waiting to see what they offer.  And as I've already pointed out, even OS on NVME + Data on 2nd nvme is STILL appreciably faster on modern content creation workloads.

mnem
 

[wraper]

^Do you use computers in real life? Or only look for numbers that look good on paper?

[wraper]

I've just jumped back into it after almost a decade away, so lots and lots of new tech and terminology swirling around the old grey matter.

BTW you said this just recently but already act as an expert in current technology and tell me to shut up.

[Mr. Scram]

Oh FFS... $40-80 is nothing. I've spent more than that just for quieter fans. 

The pcie bus is PRECISELY why I recommended the 570X series boards; even on the 470X boards it is already a bottleneck in the disk I/O dept, even with nvme.  There won't BE any economical 550 series boards to offer the pcie4.0 bus for a while yet. This is literally a generational update from AMD, not an incremental one. 

With pcie4.0, there is a real possibility of doing nvme in RAID0, possibly even more than 2 drives fpr other RAID configs given how many more channels pcie4.0 offers. For that possibility alone it is worth waiting to see what they offer.  And as I've already pointed out, even OS on NVME + Data on 2nd nvme is STILL appreciably faster on modern content creation workloads.

mnem
 

Rather than endlessly arguing the same points and pointing out the alternatives for those $80, can you perhaps point us to benchmarks that show tangible benefits to upgrading to PCIe 4.0? Tangible in this case meaning benefits a user in the real world experiences, in contrast to higher numbers in benchmarks that a user will never experience that way. Even the difference between a SATA drive and a top end NVMe drive is hard to notice in almost all use cases. Looking at the reviews it's often hard or impossible to actually measure a difference and the difference being large enough for the end user actually perceive a difference is increasingly unlikely.

[mnementh]

I've been advocating all along that he WAIT for the 570X boards... we KNOW about pcie4.0, which in itself is enough reason for me, for the reasons stated. We still don't know what all OTHER features (Aside from latest-gen USB Support and faster built-in multi-channel WiFi which are pretty much a given with every new chipset in these lines) they will offer, especially when combined with Zen3 family processors.

Still an easy choice for me, and I'm a well-known cheap-a**.

mnem
*off to do parental-unit stuffs*

[beanflying]

For engineering tasks 8GB isn't going to cut it. Modern software is so bloated that it needs oodles of memory. When planning on using a few virtual machines then 16GB is cutting it awfully close and 32GB is a better choice. Either way, memory is so cheap nowadays that it isn't worth bothering to choose 8GB versus 16GB. Just get 16GB and make sure to leave room for expansion. For my own PC I couldn't even buy a 16GB memory upgrade because it was no longer available; I had to buy 32GB.

The links I posted before show that Fusion 360 doesn't really require more than 8 GB RAM. I won't comment on "engineering tasks" as those can be almost anything and everything. Mind you that I'm not necessarily pleading for 8 GB of RAM. I'm just arguing against throwing RAM at something blindly. VMs are one of those things you nearly can't have enough RAM for, although you can get by with smaller amounts. I don't think I've heard beanflying mention VMs at all, so that eventuality is left out of the equation.

At this point I'd probably suggest going for 16 GB of RAM, based on general computing and Fusion 360 and to have some future headroom. Depending on other requirements and what this not very well defined rendering actually entails it may pay to upgrade to more.

My current I3 8GB shack box now fitted with it's less than awesome 1GB GPU sucks balls on Fusion 360 with anything complicated and does crash. The CPU certainly won't help but 8GB would seems to be on the slim side NOW and will certainly get worse as the software gets more bloaty and powerful.

You asked too about rendering. Earlier in the thread 30-60FPS 4k video on DaVinci Resolve is what I would like to suit my Mavic ProP.

16GB NOW would be adequate but I can see that running out of legs fairly quickly 32 up front makes sense.

[Mr. Scram]

I've been advocating all along that he WAIT for the 570X boards... we KNOW about pcie4.0, which in itself is enough reason for me, for the reasons stated. We still don't know what all OTHER features (Aside from latest-gen USB Support and faster built-in multi-channel WiFi which are pretty much a given with every new chipset in these lines) they will offer, especially when combined with Zen3 family processors.

Still an easy choice for me, and I'm a well-known cheap-a**.

mnem
*off to do parental-unit stuffs*

Can you share whatever benchmarks convinced you PCIe 4.0 represents a meaningful upgrade? You seem convinced and we're obviously interested in any information you've managed to dig up. I can't find much tangible and looking at historical data discussed am not expected anything special, as much larger steps haven't provided noticeable results in the past.

[beanflying]

$150 - +/- Decent Case
$180 - 570X MB
$140 - DDR4 (Corsair Vegeance 32GB DDR4-3200; now sold out) Still average price for decent
$120 - Decent PSU
$125 - nvme SSD ~0.5GB

$60-70 for a very good case without RGB fart and other stupid whistles.
$100 MOBO
$70-80 good efficient PSU with Japanese caps and more than adequate power rating of 550-650W.
$140 1TB NVMe SSD just as fast as 970 EVO plus.
And 180+ bucks left for other more important things such as CPU.

Some of those figures are pure BS

Please show me a case for $60-70 that won't cook a Ryzen 2700x/3700X and 8GB GPU? Or more likely deafen me with screaming fans? Or one I will throw through a wall trying to install the bits in it?
There are NO ATX Motherboards with WIFI for $100 let alone one that will cope well with modern bits. The only way this is possible is mini ATX so NFW!
Currently 500GB 970 EVO Plus to my door is $96 USD with the rebate 1Tb is about $180 without looking to close.

[wraper]

Please show me a case for $60-70 that won't cook a Ryzen 2700x/3700X and 8GB GPU? Or more likely deafen me with screaming fans? Or one I will throw through a wall trying to install the bits in it?

They won't cook even in half decent $40 or even cheaper case with 1 silent fan. And above $70 cooling does not improve, only eye candy. Just in case, those are US prices. BTW GPU heat dissipation has nothing to do with amount of RAM in it.

[beanflying]

Please show me a case for $60-70 that won't cook a Ryzen 2700x/3700X and 8GB GPU? Or more likely deafen me with screaming fans? Or one I will throw through a wall trying to install the bits in it?

They won't cook even in half decent $40 or even cheaper case with 1 silent fan. And above $70 cooling does not improve, only eye candy. Just in case, those are US prices. BTW GPU heat dissipation has nothing to do with amount of RAM in it.

Show me the CASES because I still call BS on your $60-70 'claim'. And the graph you show IGNORES power supply and GPU minimum let alone the board.

[Mr. Scram]

My current I3 8GB shack box now fitted with it's less than awesome 1GB GPU sucks balls on Fusion 360 with anything complicated and does crash. The CPU certainly won't help but 8GB would seems to be on the slim side NOW and will certainly get worse as the software gets more bloaty and powerful.

You asked too about rendering. Earlier in the thread 30-60FPS 4k video on DaVinci Resolve is what I would like to suit my Mavic ProP.

16GB NOW would be adequate but I can see that running out of legs fairly quickly 32 up front makes sense.

It seems DaVinci Resolve likes RAM a lot. The recommended specifications see to say 16 GB and 32 GB for 4K, although it won't say no to more. It's up to you how important this part of your use case is and whether how it's balanced with the rest of the system. I don't think you'll get a lot of use out of it outside of DaVinci for a while to come. Upgrading later is obviously always an option if you take it into account now.

Puget systems has a nice analysis on what hardware is required. It seems IO isn't usually the bottleneck and SATA SSDs tend to suffice, so any NVMe drive should be plenty. For the purposes of the programs you outlined you won't need PCIe 4.0. Apparently the amount of VRAM and RAM are important and a video card with 8 GB of VRAM is recommended for 4K. DaVinci can use more cores than Fusion 360, but the biggest gains are definitely to be had in the <10 core count area.

https://www.pugetsystems.com/recommended/Recommended-Systems-for-DaVinci-Resolve-187/Hardware-Recommendations

[beanflying]

Current budget with a 3700X in the build $1067 USD and I can buy most of these bits for a few less $ in Oz.

[wraper]

Just a week ago I assembled computer (not for myself) in Fractal design focus G case ($50) which came with two 120mm fans included. Ryzen 1700X + GTX1070(8GB). Under stress tests it runs silent and cool enough without any additional case fans (there is place for additional 3).

[wraper]

And the graph you show IGNORES power supply and GPU minimum let alone the board.

Full system consumption with Intel Core i7-7820X @ 4.3GHz (consumes way more) and loss in PSU included.

[beanflying]

Really SIMPLE for you as you want to avoid it 'SHOW ME THE CASE' or a link to it ! You are making ambit claims of 'silent' and 'cool enough' with zero caveats or partial facts. Dumping a few hundred watts during a 30-60 minute video rendering job is not trivial or a few minutes of stress test.

I live in a climate where 40+C is common on 10-15 days a year and I have no A/C in my shack.

[Mr. Scram]

Really SIMPLE for you as you want to avoid it 'SHOW ME THE CASE' or a link to it ! You are making ambit claims of 'silent' and 'cool enough' with zero caveats or partial facts. Dumping a few hundred watts during a 30-60 minute video rendering job is not trivial or a few minutes of stress test.

I live in a climate where 40+C is common on 10-15 days a year and I have no A/C in my shack.

To be fair, these Ryzens don't seem to be very hot headed. You obviously still need to get rid of the heat.

[wraper]

Really SIMPLE for you as you want to avoid it 'SHOW ME THE CASE' or a link to it ! You are making ambit claims of 'silent' and 'cool enough' with zero caveats or partial facts. Dumping a few hundred watts during a 30-60 minute video rendering job is not trivial or a few minutes of stress test.

I live in a climate where 40+C is common on 10-15 days a year and I have no A/C in my shack.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Fractal-Design-Focus-G-ATX-Mid-Tower-Computer-Case-Gunmetal-Gray/707768560

For myself I would buy something larger and bit more expensive.
That H500 cooler master is actually barely better. It costs so much because farts RGB from every hole. As of PSU you selected, it uses cheap capacitors.

[beanflying]

Really SIMPLE for you as you want to avoid it 'SHOW ME THE CASE' or a link to it ! You are making ambit claims of 'silent' and 'cool enough' with zero caveats or partial facts. Dumping a few hundred watts during a 30-60 minute video rendering job is not trivial or a few minutes of stress test.

I live in a climate where 40+C is common on 10-15 days a year and I have no A/C in my shack.

To be fair, these Ryzens don't seem to be very hot headed. You obviously still need to get rid of the heat.

That is part of the appeal of jumping from the 2700X to the 3700X is the drop in power.

Just did a quick trawl of evilbay for full sized Towers and 'junk' no name ones start at about $100 USD delivered so I will stick with my Cooler Master H500 at $106 USD delivered including our GST or about $96 ex tax  for an apples to apple comparison to other 'claims'.

[beanflying]

Really SIMPLE for you as you want to avoid it 'SHOW ME THE CASE' or a link to it ! You are making ambit claims of 'silent' and 'cool enough' with zero caveats or partial facts. Dumping a few hundred watts during a 30-60 minute video rendering job is not trivial or a few minutes of stress test.

I live in a climate where 40+C is common on 10-15 days a year and I have no A/C in my shack.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Fractal-Design-Focus-G-ATX-Mid-Tower-Computer-Case-Gunmetal-Gray/707768560

For myself I would buy something larger and bit more expensive.
That H500 cooler master is actually barely better. It costs so much because farts RGB from every hole. As of PSU you selected, it uses cheap capacitors.

So you want to compare a MID sized tower to a full sized one as your comparison. Seriously what a load of BS also Walmart in case you are seemingly unaware doesn't ship to Oz. And AGAIN you make an AMBIT claim of the H500 being barely better with ZERO evidence to back it up.

You then choose to add a strawman argument of 'cheap capacitors' to your line in BS  Get your buddy Elon to bore you a deeper hole to get into.

[wraper]

So you want to compare a MID sized tower to a full sized one as your comparison. Seriously what a load of BS also Walmart in case you are seemingly unaware doesn't ship to Oz. And AGAIN you make an AMBIT claim of the H500 being barely better with ZERO evidence to back it up.

I didn't say you should buy it, neither I did recommend it. Both are mid tower, H500 is larger. All I said that even such case is enough. And the reason case you selected costs so much.

You then choose to add a strawman argument of 'cheap capacitors' to your line in BS  Get your buddy Elon to bore you a deeper hole to get into.

Cooler master likes to cheap out on their PSUs. For the same money you can buy PSU with Japanese caps inside. Thanks for being ungrateful for advise how to save on unnecessary things. I won't recommend you anything anymore.
Most reasonable workstation case ever (H500) 

[Mr. Scram]

What is it with this thread? 

[beanflying]

You offered a figure and a case of $60-70 which I called BS on being up to the job. You then tried with using more bs and crap to defend that flawed position. 'YOU OFFERED ADVICE' is the bottom line which was WRONG! Deal with it or provide evidence to backup your claim.

The full sized case now photographed I think is the H500P cooler master I did look at and there seemed little to zero physical benefits over the H500 for the extra $ so I picked the lower cost full sized case with the same fans.

When you include a strawman in part of your reply trying to defend BS why should it be taken seriously or taken for more that what it appears to be masking the facts. Top that off with your history of doing the same non argument points in other threads and yep I call BS.

[beanflying]

What is it with this thread? 

It has to do with offering unsubstantiated claims and demanding they be accepted as fact - 'because reasons'

Part of the problem with getting good advice or information is most of the youtube heads are more concerned about gaining 2FPS on the latest game by over clocking or playing with CPU voltages which is of about zero interest to me. I won't go into the mega bs of liquid nitrogen cooling to get that either

[mnementh]

Oh sweet cheese and crackers...

It's like I'm the ONLY ONE in here who bothered to read the BOM and actually has a clue what is really needed to fulfill it, for Ifni's sake. 

You all are building a Dell corporate fleet machine in your head. bean needs a freaking content creation powerhouse CAPABLE of rendering 8K video, because he wants to be able to do 4K video in a reasonable amount of time under warehouse-workshop hostile environment conditions. VERY similar needs to a top-tier 144FPS+ gaming rig, only ALSO needing massive multi-thread processing and oodles of RAM, and the bandwidth to keep it all from gagging on that load.

smeesh. 

Though I WOULD recommend one thing for sure, my friend. Budget another $100-150 for a name-brand 120mm by 240mm AIO sealed liquid cooler. Even with the reduced 95W/105W TDP of the 3900X, the Wraith that comes in the box is gonna be howling like a freight train trying to keep your Zen3 cool at 40° ambient; no matter how big the box. 

mnem
 

[beanflying]

I was and am trying to avoid going down the water cooled path. With high ambient temperatures sealed ones in particular will lose some of the benefits I would think making high flow air closer to it? Normally I try and avoid working over 40C but we get maybe another 30 days over 30C to consider and sometimes you just need to get it done.

I am waiting on an active cooling setup to arrive to play with for my Laser cooling loop over Summer as the tubes lifespan goes up a lot if you can keep them cool. eBay auction: #223244931758 Not a 'real solution' for a PC IMO due to running costs but I did see some of the big guys are playing with peltier cooling.

As the bits come stock with Air I will go with it and if needed it can be revisited down the track.

[David Hess]

Wait long enough and Zen 2 will be out with apparently competitive single thread performance.  Even Linus, the other one, ate his words.

[mnementh]

No, no, no... modern cases put the radiator at the TOP of the box, pulling from the case and exiting upward so the CPU doesn't heat anything up. The MB & GPU actually run cooler, and the difference in the efficiency of the cooling of the CPU... it's really a no-brainer dude. I've been seeing AIO solutions in servers for years now, they're that reliable. I mean, yeah... if you started talking liquid-cooling on your MB and GPU, I'd say you were going the wrong direction for sure. But a good sealed AIO is reliable, it has PWM feedback just like a fan, and in most cases you're looking at a solid copper plate for thermal transfer.

This, BTW, is a Thermaltake V200 Mid-Tower case. It comes with 4 120mm fans and supports 120x240mm radiator in front or top (or BOTH, if you want to do a second AIO for your GPU  ); the other two came with this generic $60 AIO cooler I decided to take a chance on. I got my V200 because it was on sale for $60; if I had it to do again I'd probably go for a more expensive box with hinged front & sides so hot-swap HDD bays wouldn't have been such a pain in the tuchus to realize.

But as a functional case, thanks to the small amount of space taken up by the AIO pump there's just oodles of room and I have NO worries about it keeping cool, even with my house hitting 25° in the afternoon now. Idles at 35°, hits 40-45° according to my front-mounted thermometer. Internal monitoring indicates individual core temps sometimes as much as 7° warmer than it shows; it takes a minute or two for that thermo to catch up as it senses from direct contact with the side of the CPU lid. Very old-school; but I like having at least one hardware thermometer that MS Update or a hung CPU can't fuck up.

And before you say it... yes, I realize that means the radiator for the CPU sucks all the GPU & MB heat through it. Liquid-cooling is simply that much more effective that it doesn't matter; just like your car that cools the engine, transmission and even oil (and, in the case of a hybrid, also an electric motor & motor controller and battery) all the while sucking all the heat generated by your AC condenser through its radiator first.

mnem
 

[David Hess]

No, no, no... modern cases put the radiator at the TOP of the box, pulling from the case and exiting upward so the CPU doesn't heat anything up.

But how do I stack things on top of my computer case?

[mnementh]

Wait long enough and Zen 2 will be out with apparently competitive single thread performance.  Even Linus, the other one, ate his words.

Naaahhh... that's all made-up drama just for this video. Linus has literally been VIBRATING about AMD ever since he saw "all the new schizz" at CompuTex. It's been pretty much all he could do for weeks now to NOT shoot his wad all over his 8K Red cameras about what this new family of processors & motherboards is capable of. Over and over again. He's always been a closet AMD gaming fanboy.

But NOW you can see some real figures on JUST WHAT pcie4.0 means as far as SSD throughput. EXACTLY as I said... seriously fast. And you'll no longer have to put up with your 2nd M.2 slot running at half the bandwidth; BOTH can run that fast at the same time with pcie4.0. And SO CAN the ones you plug into a riser card, until you run out of channels that aren't being used by your GPU. 

THAT SAID... I can see the X570 board's active cooling being a bit of a headache for bean in a 40° workshop... fortunately it DOES have its own PWM speed control AND PWM tach signal for warning klaxons, just like modern AIO liquid coolers. 

mnem
 

[mnementh]

*waves at eevBlog perusing the thread*

Hi Dave!

mnem
 

[mnementh]

No, no, no... modern cases put the radiator at the TOP of the box, pulling from the case and exiting upward so the CPU doesn't heat anything up.

But how do I stack things on top of my computer case?

My solution was to put my pictures of my kids on top of the CPU case (thin & vertical) and use the space vacated by them on my desktop for THINGS. 

mnem
Of course... YMMV, DQMOT, IIRC, OMFGBBQ, DILLIGAF?

[Mr. Scram]

Oh sweet cheese and crackers...

It's like I'm the ONLY ONE in here who bothered to read the BOM and actually has a clue what is really needed to fulfill it, for Ifni's sake. 

You all are building a Dell corporate fleet machine in your head. bean needs a freaking content creation powerhouse CAPABLE of rendering 8K video, because he wants to be able to do 4K video in a reasonable amount of time under warehouse-workshop hostile environment conditions. VERY similar needs to a top-tier 144FPS+ gaming rig, only ALSO needing massive multi-thread processing and oodles of RAM, and the bandwidth to keep it all from gagging on that load.

smeesh. 

Though I WOULD recommend one thing for sure, my friend. Budget another $100-150 for a name-brand 120mm by 240mm AIO sealed liquid cooler. Even with the reduced 95W/105W TDP of the 3900X, the Wraith that comes in the box is gonna be howling like a freight train trying to keep your Zen3 cool at 40° ambient; no matter how big the box. 

mnem
 

It appears you have missed the various posts which bothered to look up the actual requirements of the programs beanflying mentioned. Not the minimum or the recommended specifications and definitely not endless baseless speculations, but actual real world and tested configurations. I'm not sure what any of that has to do with Dell machines, but that's how workstations are configured when people aren't dicking around and things need to work out first time.

If heat is a great concern an AIO definitely is an option, but they unfortunately take another significant chunk out of the budget. It should be noted that the better air coolers are also very capable and as reliable as it gets. That may be a way of saving a few dollars.

https://www.anandtech.com/bench/CPUCooling/774

[mnementh]

Nope. didn't miss 'em. I'm just not kidding myself about what bean needs for what he wants to do. I've been doing nothing for months but looking at builds and framerates and render times on just the sort of work he wants to do, and even 2900Xs have a hard time doing some of it in reasonable amounts of time. The bandwidth bottlenecks are part of it, as are all but the most expensive processors.

A good air cooler is also additional money. You CAN buy an all-in-one like mine for as little as $60. I was recommending something like Corsair's Non-RGB 120x240mm cooler, which is more like $90 now $75. I think for bean's situation, there simply is no contest for that kind of money.

Cheers,
mnem
 

[beanflying]

There is of course the mission critical use case of the Roasting of the Bean. Today is sample roasting day, then the next few spent slurping and tasting. Requires the use of maybe an Itel Atom on W7 (overkill) but the Ryzen might nearly be up to the task 

[mnementh]

I'll send you my old 1055T to use as a hotplate AND do the spreadsheet. I'm sure you could while away hours figuring out just the right workload to produce a perfect roast while at the same time not shutting down or failing to update results.

mnem
 

[Mr. Scram]

Nope. didn't miss 'em. I'm just not kidding myself about what bean needs for what he wants to do. I've been doing nothing for months but looking at builds and framerates and render times on just the sort of work he wants to do, and even 2900Xs have a hard time doing some of it in reasonable amounts of time. The bandwidth bottlenecks are part of it, as are all but the most expensive processors.

A good air cooler is also additional money. You CAN buy an all-in-one like mine for as little as $60. I was recommending something like Corsair's Non-RGB 120x240mm cooler, which is more like $90 now $75. I think for bean's situation, there simply is no contest for that kind of money.

Cheers,
mnem
 

Unfortunately, we haven't seen any of the information you say you've dug up in those months. Meanwhile, actual benchmarks and requirements for the programs the computer is intended for were posted in the posts discussing them. We can be very sure Puget systems isn't kidding anyone about the tailor made workstations they build every day and the research they put into that. They provide a good example of how you substantiate claims with evidence on top of "having done the research" and "working in the business".

[mnementh]

You offered someone else's research based on a web search instead of your own advice. I offered my own advice based on months of my own research trying to grok exactly the kind of knowledge bean asked for. Let's see who comes out closer to right in the end.

Cheers,

mnem
*toddles off to ded*

[beanflying]

Backwards Compatibility of Ryzen 3  I won't be going there but you can run a 3900X on a B350 with some pain. Unlike Intel changing sockets every time the wind changes.

[mnementh]

Yeah, we've known that since like January; one of the first leaked tidbits. Also note the RAM speeds Linus was talking about above; you're going to be wanting DDR4-3800 min, DDR4-4000 preferably. NOW you see why I was suggesting to START with 16GB, expand to 32GB later. Even 16GB of DDR4-4000 is gonna hurt. And your cheap MBs are NOT gonna play well with that RAM; AMD redesigned the memory controllers, chipset and the board layout to actually be able to go there reliably.

Cheers,

mnem
 

[wraper]

I intended to stay silent, but cannot stop from face palming from what's happening here. ^FYI Ryzen 3000 series drop infinity fabric frequency by half if you go over 3733 MHz RAM. All your super fast RAM will do is reducing performance for a lot of money. Also all those ultra high clocked RAM are not JEDEC compliant and are just non IC mfg binned and overclocked 2133 MHz chips. As for performance, going above 3200MHz barely gives any performance increase on 3000 series. Not that it even mattered that much with previous models in anything other than games. As of suggested AIO coolers, not only they are not better in cooling or more silent than high end air coolers, they also sometimes leak and if that happens destroy your MOBO, GPU and possibly set PSU on fire.

[Black Phoenix]

I intended to stay silent, but cannot stop from face palming from what's happening here. ^FYI Ryzen 3000 series drop infinity fabric frequency by half if you go over 3733 MHz RAM. All your super fast RAM will do is reducing performance for a lot of money. Also all those ultra high clocked RAM are not JEDEC compliant and are just non IC mfg binned and overclocked 2133 MHz chips. As for performance, going above 3200MHz barely gives any performance increase on 3000 series. Not that it even mattered that much with previous models in anything other than games. As of suggested AIO coolers, not only they are not better in cooling or more silent than high end air coolers, they also sometimes leak and if that happens destroy your MOBO, GPU and possibly set PSU on fire.

Totally right. I find the sweet spot about Ryzen in the 3000MHz, 3200MHz. Corsair LPX or Crucial Ballistix. No need to Spend more.


Regarding the PC Config, I recomment something like this: (A 1200$ without Monitors and Keyboards/Mouse):

PCPartPicker Part List: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/JPWMRJ

CPU: AMD - Ryzen 7 2700X 3.7 GHz 8-Core Processor  ($254.99 @ Newegg)
CPU Cooler: be quiet! - Shadow Rock Slim 67.8 CFM Rifle Bearing CPU Cooler  ($49.80 @ OutletPC)
Motherboard: Gigabyte - X570 AORUS ELITE ATX AM4 Motherboard  ($199.99 @ Amazon)
Memory: Corsair - Vengeance LPX 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3200 Memory  ($69.99 @ Newegg)
Memory: Corsair - Vengeance LPX 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3200 Memory  ($69.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Corsair - MP510 480 GB M.2-2280 Solid State Drive  ($64.99 @ Newegg Business)
Storage: Seagate - BarraCuda 4 TB 3.5" 5400RPM Internal Hard Drive  ($79.99 @ Newegg)
Video Card: Asus - Radeon RX 580 4 GB Dual Video Card  ($159.99 @ Newegg)
Case: Fractal Design - Define R5 (Black) ATX Mid Tower Case  ($129.99 @ Newegg Business)
Power Supply: Corsair - RMx (2018) 850 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply  ($129.99 @ Newegg Business)
Total: $1209.71

I added a GPU because in the main configuration the OP posted, the CPU in question doesn't have IGU, so a GPU is needed. I put a normal gaming GPU as reference, it should work with CAD if it have OpenGL available. But if the OP can, search for good deals in FirePro/Quadro Used Models.

Plus this config is Linux Compatible, so if the OP instead of Windows want to use Linux it will work without any problems.

[mnementh]

"Should work".  Somebody else who didn't read the original BOM, has no idea what is really needed. Here we go again.    Both of you are building yesterday's budget gaming rig, NOT a next-gen content creation rendering machine.

wraper, even with you on ignore I can't get away from your inane drivel. If you'd actually BOTHERED to listen to the video you snapshotted, you'd realize he was saying the EXACT OPPOSITE. He is saying that up til NOW, this has been the case... but with the new 3xxx processors and X570 MBs, 3800MHz will be not only possible, it will be the baseline of performance. That DDR4 3600 (not 3200) will be the VALUE config, with high-end power users able to go DDR4-4200 and even OC to 5GHz plus.

THAT, BTW,  is the neighborhood of what bean is building.

And again... the video supported my argument that pcie4.0 is a big deal, and in EXACTLY the way I described it. Shocking. 

Your arguments against liquid cooling... partcularly AOIs, are utter infantile feces-flinging. Seriously. No nicer way to put it. You just propagate ignorance when you post crap like that. * But hey, keep dragging your friends in here to post irrelevant stuff like the above.

Cheers,

mnem
*edited to reduce aggro tone*

[Black Phoenix]

Sir,

Can you use Xeons, yes you can, can you use ECC memory, yes you can. Can you buy old workstations that were decommissioned from a company? Yes you can but if they were decommissioned it's because they are using new stuff that its better. It's the value/perfomance better? Probably depends, of how much you paid.

I deployed exactly the same configuration at my last work but with an Ryzen 1700X back when I was in Portugal with an equivalent Motherboard with proper VRMs with a AMD FirePro V7100 for CAD Working.

The advantages in extra speed in memory are negligible after certain threshold. Plus Memory speed without proper timings its worse that lower speed but tighter timings.

PCIE Gen4 yes is a great deal, no denial, and PCIE Gen5 going to be released next year even more. Although the only hardware released that pings the advantage of PCIE4 currently are some NVME SSDs released this year in Computex.

Current Graphic Cards don't tap the full advantage of PCIE Gen3 16x speed.

For a production environment the use of Water Cooling is basically a risk to be taken. Did you see any company using PCs water cooled, Custom loop builds or AIO even? If it fails is basically production time lost and lost of hardware, specially if the AIO have defects (Enermax AIOs with corrosion, Corsair Pumps failing, etc... If you want I can link recall docs for what I'm saying). A Custom loop should be drained and clean each year, an AIO are good for around 4 years, they are made to be throw away when the pump fails. Never had a Fan in a AirCooler fail in the last 10 years, saw some AIOs fail because of evaporation of the liquid through the rubber tubes:

Finally, tubes are generally made of either FEP or EPDM rubber. The more rigid tubes tend to be FEP, which has excellent reduction of permeation, but less flexibility during installs. Kinking an FEP tube will result in cracking the inner PTFE coating, which results in permeation and poor cooling ability. EPDM tubes have the opposite set of pros and cons: They won’t really get damaged if bent and are more flexible, but it requires an expensive R&D process to get the compound to a point of resisting permeation. Ultimately, all tubes will exhibit the effects of age and will slowly lose fluid to natural processes. It’s just a matter of how long they last. Most CLCs are rated for use in the 4-6 year range, though it’s around years 4-5 that noise begins to get more noticeable. This is because enough of the fluid has permeated the tubes to allow for more air in the line, which gets sucked through the pump and causes gurgling. Users can mitigate this by mounting the tubes down in a vertical CLC install.

https://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/2926-how-liquid-coolers-work-deep-dive

An air cooler with good fans just need a blow with compressed air, and it's good as new. If you want to use water in your own computer for your own production, yes go ahead. But in a deployment of 40 machines no thank you I will not do it.

[beanflying]

I did put in the original post both a CPU and GPU with the GPU (likely an RX 580 at the time) in particular being up for discussion so it was in a separate paragraph from memory. Given the release prices of the new 5700's I would expect maybe a small bump in quantity and reduction in second hand pricing locally so I will be sitting on my hands for a bit for a GPU purchase.

For a processor the 3700X is where I am going and it is still with the budget. To me it is well worth the $80USD  premium over the 2700X for punch and the drop in power.

Re memory. Bad idea to go 4 slots of 8Gb so I am going 2 slots of 16Gb and given the law of diminishing returns on $ for speeds over 3200 it is about where I want to go. 3-6 months or a year down the track most likely a different answer but to balance the budget this makes sense to me at this time.

[Black Phoenix]

I did put in the original post both a CPU and GPU with the GPU (likely an RX 580 at the time) in particular being up for discussion so it was in a separate paragraph from memory. Given the release prices of the new 5700's I would expect maybe a small bump in quantity and reduction in second hand pricing locally so I will be sitting on my hands for a bit for a GPU purchase.

For a processor the 3700X is where I am going and it is still with the budget. To me it is well worth the $80USD  premium over the 2700X for punch and the drop in power.

Re memory. Bad idea to go 4 slots of 8Gb so I am going 2 slots of 16Gb and given the law of diminishing returns on $ for speeds over 3200 it is about where I want to go. 3-6 months or a year down the track most likely a different answer but to balance the budget this makes sense to me at this time.

Sorry didn't saw the GPU on the bottom, just read in the diagonal.

Sensible choices and reasoning.

I gone with the 2700X and a X570 to give upgrade in the future, with a proven CPU currently plus an motherboard with good VRM to support the 3000 series including the 16c/32t 3950x  to be release in the future this year.

The reason for the 4x8GB  was also for the price in question of the kit, compared with the equivalent in 2x16GB 3200MHz ( $139.98 vs $154.99), giving more financial headroom for the graphic cards and also taking use of the dual memory channel capabilities of the CPU, specially the last one since the 20 dollar difference is easily achievable.

[wraper]

wraper, even with you on ignore I can't get away from your inane drivel. If you'd actually BOTHERED to listen to the video you snapshotted, you'd realize he was saying the EXACT OPPOSITE. He is saying that up til NOW, this has been the case... but with the new 3xxx processors and X570 MBs, 3800MHz will be not only possible, it will be the baseline of performance. That DDR4 3600 (not 3200) will be the VALUE config, with high-end power users able to go DDR4-4200 and even OC to 5GHz plus.

You can use such frequencies but it does not add performance. Did you even try looking on performance graph?  . Not to say using highly overclocked RAM in anything real work related is plain stupid. Such modules run overvolted and it's simply not reliable enough. Rather than spending on such stupid RAM and other stuff which does not add performance, you can just buy 12 core CPU.
EDIT: and BTW nothing from that was from any video. If video used slide provided by AMD, it does not make it origin.

[beanflying]

Moving right along and back somewhere closer to the Topic I opened. Wendell is an acquired taste but worth a look or listen instead of the overclock or die squad.

Interesting thoughts and performance tests on the 3700 and 3900X on Resolve and Premier vs Intel.

[Black Phoenix]

Wendell is one of the best in the Business for information, he had lots and lots of AMD and Linux combined.

Him and Gamers Nexus, the two youtube channels that I recommend if you want unbiased and thoroughly researched topics with data to backup, compared with money spenders / attention seekers like Linus Tech Tips: His videos are fun to watch but most of the times the technical aspect of the newer videos left a lot to desire.

I hope that now that Antony is there doing the most technical videos now that the information of his channel will improve to the old times of the Linus Tech Tips Group.

[Mr. Scram]

"Should work".  Somebody else who didn't read the original BOM, has no idea what is really needed. Here we go again.    Both of you are building yesterday's budget gaming rig, NOT a next-gen content creation rendering machine.

wraper, even with you on ignore I can't get away from your inane drivel. If you'd actually BOTHERED to listen to the video you snapshotted, you'd realize he was saying the EXACT OPPOSITE. He is saying that up til NOW, this has been the case... but with the new 3xxx processors and X570 MBs, 3800MHz will be not only possible, it will be the baseline of performance. That DDR4 3600 (not 3200) will be the VALUE config, with high-end power users able to go DDR4-4200 and even OC to 5GHz plus.

THAT, BTW,  is the neighborhood of what bean is building.

And again... the video supported my argument that pcie4.0 is a big deal, and in EXACTLY the way I described it. Shocking. 

Your arguments against liquid cooling... partcularly AOIs, are utter infantile feces-flinging. Seriously. No nicer way to put it. you just show your ignorance when you post crap like that. But hey, keep dragging your friends in here to post irrelevant stuff like the above. It helps to spread the ignorance around. 

Cheers,

mnem

The only reason there's a video card with 8 GB added is currently DaVinci, of which it's specifically stated that it really appreciates a video card with 8 GB of VRAM if you want to do 4K color grading. Puget benchmarks also indicate that the very best card for DaVinci is NVIDIA RTX 2080 Ti, better than any Quadro card. I doubt that's within beanflying's budget though and it should be noted that this doesn't appear to take the recent releases into account. The video posted seems to indicate that the new AMD cards could mean a significant improvement. Apparently Fusion 360 doesn't really care about whether it's running on a consumer or professional card. From a technical point of views it's vastly different from the classic CAD applications like AutoCAD and even those are being modernized. beanflying has also indicated that he'd like to be able to play a game every now and then. It does show that building what you call a "gaming rig" is appropriate for the situation. Which card exactly depends on the budget and how important DaVinci is compared to other tasks.

There's zero evidence for PCIe 4.0 being an upgrade with real world benefits. Without any evidence presented that topic is dismissed. It'd be appreciated if you could dial back the attitude towards other people in this thread. People are spending time and effort helping beanflying making a solid choice and they may actually know what they talking about. Let's have some fun rather than endlessly bickering.

[beanflying]

As I am fairly badly colourblind and lack a $1k+ monitor there is little to be gained with looking to hard on grading but a better monitor is planned after the box. The more I look at it the RX580 is the low point and new fits in well for the budget. A lot of what I have been looking at is filtering out 100-200+FPS BS on cards with game X down to some real numbers and productivity.

Much as I have set a budget I only have to justify changing it to myself and my Cal gear is testament to not being bound by $ for a result. Does Beanflying need a 2060super or an RX 5700 

[Mr. Scram]

As I am fairly badly colourblind and lack a $1k+ monitor there is little to be gained with looking to hard on grading but a better monitor is planned after the box. The more I look at it the RX580 is the low point and new fits in well for the budget. A lot of what I have been looking at is filtering out 100-200+FPS BS on cards with game X down to some real numbers and productivity.

Much as I have set a budget I only have to justify changing it to myself and my Cal gear is testament to not being bound by $ for a result. Does Beanflying need a 2060super or an RX 5700 

Judging by the video posted a few posts back you need an RX5700 XT and a 3900X.  That combination somewhat surprisingly absolutely smokes anything and everything when it comes to DaVinci Resolve.

[Black Phoenix]

Judging by the video posted a few posts back you need an RX5700 XT and a 3900X.  That combination somewhat surprisingly absolutely smokes anything and everything when it comes to DaVinci Resolve.

Times two...

As I am fairly badly colourblind and lack a $1k+ monitor there is little to be gained with looking to hard on grading but a better monitor is planned after the box. The more I look at it the RX580 is the low point and new fits in well for the budget. A lot of what I have been looking at is filtering out 100-200+FPS BS on cards with game X down to some real numbers and productivity.

In terms of monitors, one that I used also a lot, price performance for a cheap 24'' IPS Panel is the BenQ BL2423PT. I'm the kind of person of multi displays instead of a Big Curved One. Other than that the typical Dell Ultrasharp with their excellent colour reproduction is also a great monitor to use. All of these ones are 60Hz refresh rate.

[olkipukki]

That DDR4 3600 (not 3200) will be the VALUE config, with high-end power users able to go DDR4-4200 and even OC to 5GHz plus.

Who are these guys? Gamers?

[olkipukki]

I reckon OP's bottleneck will be on GPU side, DaVinci Resolve in 4K mode is really demanding and worth to consider how to expand system with 2nd or 3rd card in a future.

On the other side, Fusion 360 is a generic package and not so pedantic to hardware regardless modelling or CAM workflows.

[mnementh]

The only reason there's a video card with 8 GB added is currently DaVinci, of which it's specifically stated that it really appreciates a video card with 8 GB of VRAM if you want to do 4K color grading. Puget benchmarks also indicate that the very best card for DaVinci is NVIDIA RTX 2080 Ti, better than any Quadro card. I doubt that's within beanflying's budget though and it should be noted that this doesn't appear to take the recent releases into account. The video posted seems to indicate that the new AMD cards could mean a significant improvement. Apparently Fusion 360 doesn't really care about whether it's running on a consumer or professional card. From a technical point of views it's vastly different from the classic CAD applications like AutoCAD and even those are being modernized. beanflying has also indicated that he'd like to be able to play a game every now and then. It does show that building what you call a "gaming rig" is appropriate for the situation. Which card exactly depends on the budget and how important DaVinci is compared to other tasks.

There's zero evidence for PCIe 4.0 being an upgrade with real world benefits. Without any evidence presented that topic is dismissed. It'd be appreciated if you could dial back the attitude towards other people in this thread. People are spending time and effort helping beanflying making a solid choice and they may actually know what they talking about. Let's have some fun rather than endlessly bickering.
It'd be appreciated if you could dial back the attitude towards other people in this thread. People are spending time and effort helping beanflying making a solid choice and they may actually know what they talking about. Let's have some fun rather than endlessly bickering.

I've ALREADY stated this; again and again. What bean has asked for is the equivalent of a top-tier gaming rig, WITH massive bandwidth and multi-thread processing ON TOP of that. There's a HUGE difference between THAT and building last year's "Budget gaming rig", which is obviously what you're ALL doing. You can see it in where you cut corners; pretty much EVERYTHING that boosts bandwidth and multi-thread is what YOU seem to think is unimportant. B-series MBs? DDR3200? SERIOUSLY?

No evidence? There's evidence right in the video y'all linked that pcie4.0 is a big thing. The difference between supporting it and not supporting it is effing $40-80. Even SINGLE nvme SSD performance is markedly improved, and it brings the capability to run MULTIPLE nvme SSDs at full bandwidth AT ONCE.

Now you attempt to be "the reasonable one"? You were, and still are, being deliberately obtuse. I called you on it. Not sorry if that hurt your feelings. Also not sorry for telling inane feces-flingers like wraper to stop.

Cheers,

mnem
 

[mnementh]

As I am fairly badly colourblind and lack a $1k+ monitor there is little to be gained with looking to hard on grading but a better monitor is planned after the box. The more I look at it the RX580 is the low point and new fits in well for the budget. A lot of what I have been looking at is filtering out 100-200+FPS BS on cards with game X down to some real numbers and productivity.

Much as I have set a budget I only have to justify changing it to myself and my Cal gear is testament to not being bound by $ for a result. Does Beanflying need a 2060super or an RX 5700 

You want to look into the newest crop of VA panel displays. While the pixels themselves aren't as fast as the top-tier IPS (2-3ms vs 1-2ms) costing 5x more, and nowhere near a really fast TFT display, the display architecture permits some REALLY fast signal processing; as in 1-3ms vs 20s & teens signal processing latency for previous generations top gaming screens. The great part is decent color gamut as well.



I picked one of these up because it was on sale for $299 and I had it. LG is now offering the same panel under their own name; MicroCenter here has it for the same price. I think it's an amazing balance between the two types. Still not decided whether I like it for gaming; it has a bit of the haloing effect of IPS.

Cheers,

mnem
 

[Black Phoenix]

Ok Sir:

Let's analyse some things since you clearly say one thing and then change to another as you see fit:

Picking up an old reply from you:

Here's my quick thumbnail cost analysis; exclusive of the usual "sundries" which I'm pretty sure bean has plenty:

$150 - +/- Decent Case
$180 - 570X MB
$140 - DDR4 (Corsair Vegeance 32GB DDR4-3200; now sold out) Still average price for decent
$120 - Decent PSU
$125 - nvme SSD ~0.5GB

That leaves ~$285 for video and CPU, + approx 30-50$ if you go with 16GB of name-brand DDR4. The 3600X is available right now for $US249.00 shipped from Amazon. The 3700 is listed right now at $329 pre-order from B&H Photo and the 3900 at $499, just as suggested in the press release.

mnem
 

My configuration:

Regarding the PC Config, I recommend something like this: (A 1200$ without Monitors and Keyboards/Mouse):

PCPartPicker Part List: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/JPWMRJ

CPU: AMD - Ryzen 7 2700X 3.7 GHz 8-Core Processor  ($254.99 @ Newegg)
CPU Cooler: be quiet! - Shadow Rock Slim 67.8 CFM Rifle Bearing CPU Cooler  ($49.80 @ OutletPC)
Motherboard: Gigabyte - X570 AORUS ELITE ATX AM4 Motherboard  ($199.99 @ Amazon)
Memory: Corsair - Vengeance LPX 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3200 Memory  ($69.99 @ Newegg)
Memory: Corsair - Vengeance LPX 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3200 Memory  ($69.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Corsair - MP510 480 GB M.2-2280 Solid State Drive  ($64.99 @ Newegg Business)
Storage: Seagate - BarraCuda 4 TB 3.5" 5400RPM Internal Hard Drive  ($79.99 @ Newegg)
Video Card: Asus - Radeon RX 580 4 GB Dual Video Card  ($159.99 @ Newegg)
Case: Fractal Design - Define R5 (Black) ATX Mid Tower Case  ($129.99 @ Newegg Business)
Power Supply: Corsair - RMx (2018) 850 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply  ($129.99 @ Newegg Business)
Total: $1209.71

I added a GPU because in the main configuration the OP posted, the CPU in question doesn't have IGU, so a GPU is needed. I put a normal gaming GPU as reference, it should work with CAD if it have OpenGL available. But if the OP can, search for good deals in FirePro/Quadro Used Models.

Plus this config is Linux Compatible, so if the OP instead of Windows want to use Linux it will work without any problems.

See something equal to what you added. I can make my config fit your price and have allowance for the last gen CPU plus badass graphic card by taking the 4TB hard drive for storage and updating to a 3700X. The 2700x was for price and having headroom for other things.

Now another thing:

There's a HUGE difference between THAT and building last year's "Budget gaming rig", which is obviously what you're ALL doing. You can see it in where you cut corners; pretty much EVERYTHING that boosts bandwidth and multi-thread is what YOU seem to think is unimportant. B-series MBs? DDR3200? SERIOUSLY?

I don't see a B series Motherboard in my config. DDR4 3200 is more that able for what hes going to use, as stated again the performance plus cost curve is basically negligible because of the way the Infinite Fabric scales.

Even SINGLE nvme SSD performance is markedly improved, and it brings the capability to run MULTIPLE nvme SSDs at full bandwidth AT ONCE.

Full bandwidth at once you say? The 3000 series have only 24 PCIE lanes, 16 are wired directly to the first PCIE Slot and the rest are for the other peripherals. Block Diagram for your reference:



Plus the supposed full PCIE4 bandwidth SSDs are not true by limitations of the chipset, at max 1 Full speed, add more and it reduces because of the lack of available lanes, see Block diagram.

Per Diagram the CPU have x16 or 2x8 to the dedicated GPU or dGPU, 2x for NVMe and 2x for SATA or 4X NVME if SATA is not used.

x16 plus x4 is x20. After that the remaining x4 is for the PCH and there its a lot of stuff that uses that x4 so from there you don't take any full speed.

If the OP uses a SATA for any reason (lets be realistic, an NVME of 1TB is 150 last Gen, 280 the Gen 4, prices from Gigabyte. An 4TB HDD is 4 times less the price of the new shiny SSD packing 4x more Info) bye bye full x4 PCIE Gen4.

Lastly, I may be new here but as said there are other ways of proving your idea instead of resorting to violence or bad wording.

[wraper]

No evidence? There's evidence right in the video y'all linked that pcie4.0 is a big thing. The difference between supporting it and not supporting it is effing $40-80. Even SINGLE nvme SSD performance is markedly improved, and it brings the capability to run MULTIPLE nvme SSDs at full bandwidth AT ONCE.

Now you attempt to be "the reasonable one"? You were, and still are, being deliberately obtuse. Clearly, you DON'T know as much as you think you do. I called you on it. Not sorry if that hurt your feelings. Also not sorry for telling inane feces-flingers like wraper to stop.

Yep no evidence. Some "expert" in 10yo Phenom who've have seen some marketing wank now boasts that PCI-E 4.0 is a big thing. It might be in some cases but not in 8 core PC doing tasks stated. Please elaborate how it will improve doing actual workload in any way? Especially compared with same money spent on better CPU (3800x instead of 3700X) or GPU.

capability to run MULTIPLE nvme SSDs at full bandwidth AT ONCE.

Which you can do with PCI-E 3.0 too. Say put one into m2 slot on MOBO, second into PCI-E>m2 adapter.

[mnementh]

Sir,

Can you use Xeons, yes you can, can you use ECC memory, yes you can. Can you buy old workstations that were decommissioned from a company? Yes you can but if they were decommissioned it's because they are using new stuff that its better. It's the value/perfomance better? Probably depends, of how much you paid.

I deployed exactly the same configuration at my last work but with an Ryzen 1700X back when I was in Portugal with an equivalent Motherboard with proper VRMs with a AMD FirePro V7100 for CAD Working.

The advantages in extra speed in memory are negligible after certain threshold. Plus Memory speed without proper timings its worse that lower speed but tighter timings.

PCIE Gen4 yes is a great deal, no denial, and PCIE Gen5 going to be released next year even more. Although the only hardware released that pings the advantage of PCIE4 currently are some NVME SSDs released this year in Computex.

Current Graphic Cards don't tap the full advantage of PCIE Gen3 16x speed.

For a production environment the use of Water Cooling is basically a risk to be taken. Did you see any company using PCs water cooled, Custom loop builds or AIO even? If it fails is basically production time lost and lost of hardware, specially if the AIO have defects (Enermax AIOs with corrosion, Corsair Pumps failing, etc... If you want I can link recall docs for what I'm saying). A Custom loop should be drained and clean each year, an AIO are good for around 4 years, they are made to be throw away when the pump fails. Never had a Fan in a AirCooler fail in the last 10 years, saw some AIOs fail because of evaporation of the liquid through the rubber tubes:

Finally, tubes are generally made of either FEP or EPDM rubber. The more rigid tubes tend to be FEP, which has excellent reduction of permeation, but less flexibility during installs. Kinking an FEP tube will result in cracking the inner PTFE coating, which results in permeation and poor cooling ability. EPDM tubes have the opposite set of pros and cons: They won’t really get damaged if bent and are more flexible, but it requires an expensive R&D process to get the compound to a point of resisting permeation. Ultimately, all tubes will exhibit the effects of age and will slowly lose fluid to natural processes. It’s just a matter of how long they last. Most CLCs are rated for use in the 4-6 year range, though it’s around years 4-5 that noise begins to get more noticeable. This is because enough of the fluid has permeated the tubes to allow for more air in the line, which gets sucked through the pump and causes gurgling. Users can mitigate this by mounting the tubes down in a vertical CLC install.

https://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/2926-how-liquid-coolers-work-deep-dive

An air cooler with good fans just need a blow with compressed air, and it's good as new. If you want to use water in your own computer for your own production, yes go ahead. But in a deployment of 40 machines no thank you I will not do it.

Yes. All over the place. The advent of AIOs has transformed the marketplace. I'm seeing them in high-end workstations, ready-made gaming rigs and even training simulators. Anywhere you have high-demand workload and want to keep it cool quietly.

I'm the guy they call to air-drop in and clean up the mess when nobody else is willing to. My days are spent going from one business or datacenter to another, replacing network gear, CPUs, RAM, VRMs and PSUs in places locked down so tightly you need an escort and you put your phone in a locker before you enter.

Even in THOSE places I've been seeing liquid-cooled servers for years now. They use AIOs specifically configured for those servers; but the general config is the same: pump is still on the CPU, the chassis is designed so you can lift the entire cooler out as an assembly without disturbing the rest of the MB and the cooler is treated as a consumable supply. You are literally thinking 10 years ago technology, not today's. 

Cheers,

mnem
 

[gnif]

I have not read this thread in it's entirety, but figured i'd add my personal experience with the PCIe 3.0x bus in some extreme use circumstances.

I am the author of Looking Glass, a program that allows use of a Windows VM with a passthrough GPU inside of Linux by transferring the captured frame between GPUs via system RAM. We are talking about transferring 4K 100+FPS video across the PCIe bus while competing for GPU and CPU time and resources running pro CAD applications and AAA game titles.

3840 x 2160 x 4 = 33,177,600 bytes per frame x 100 = 3,317,760,000 bytes per second = 3GB/s

We can do this on a PCIe 3.0 bus, while PCIe 4.0 will help in some extremely rare corner cases, it's simply not that huge a deal at this point in time with the current workloads. Getting a CPU with more lanes IMO is far more useful then a PCIe 4.0 system. If you want to ensure you have enough lanes, go for a CPU with a ton of them like a Threadripper (note I am aware that this alone is too expensive for the OP's budget).

[wraper]

mnementh, as you like watching Linus, here you go. Nothing more than eye candy.

[Simon]

mnementh would you please colm down. Everyone is entitiled to an opinion.

[Black Phoenix]

Yes I really wanted to see a Server in a 48U rack, one of the very top start leaking water to the others down him... Yes, a full rack burned...

So I will break my answer in serveral parts:

    Physical properties of water versus air and mineral oil
    Risks of water use and historical bad experiences
    Total cost of cooling a datacenter
    Weakenesses of classic liquid cooling systems

Physical properties of water compared to others

First a few simple rules:

    Liquid can transport more heat than gases
    Evaporating a liquid extract more heat (used in refrigerator)
    Water has the best cooling properties of all liquids.
    A moving fluid extract heat way better than a non moving fluid
    Turbulent flow requires more energy to be moved but extract heat way better than laminar flow.

If you compare water and mineral oil versus air (for the same volume)

    mineral oil is around 1500 times better than air

    water is around 3500 times better than air

    oil is a bad electricity conductor in all conditions and is used to cool high power transformers.
    oil depending on its exact type is a solvant and is able to dissolve plastic
    water is a good conductor of electricity if it is not pure (contains minerals...) otherwise not
    water is a good electrolyt. So metals put in contact with water can be dissolved under certain conditions.

Now some comments about what I said above: Comparisons are made at atmospheric pressure. In this condition water boils at 100°C which is above the maximum temperature for processors. So when cooling with water, water stays liquid. Cooling with organic compounds like mineral oil or freon(what is used in refrigerator) is a classical method of cooling for some application (power plants, military vehicules...) but long term use of oil in direct contact with plastic has never been done in the IT sector. So its influence on the reliability of server parts is unknown (Green Evolution doesn't say a word about is). Making you liquid move is important. Relying on natural movement inside a non moving liquid to remove heat is inefficient and directing correctly a liquid without pipe is difficult. For these reasons, immersion cooling is far from being the perfect solution to cooling issues.
Technical issues

Making air move is easy and leaks are not a threat to safety (to efficiency well). It requires a lot of space and consume energy (15% of your desktop cinsumption goes to your fans)

Making a liquid move is troublesome. You need pipes, cooling blocks (cold plates) attached to every component you want to cool, a tank, a pump and maybe a filter. Moreover, servicing such a system is difficult since you need to remove the liquid. But it requires less space and requires less energy.

Another important point is that a lot of reasearch and standardization has been down on how to design motherboards,desktop and servers based on a air based system with cooling fans. And the resulting designs are not adequate for liquid based systems. More info at formfactors.org
Risks

    Water cooling systems can leak if your design is poorly done. Heat pipes are a good example of a liquid based system that has no leak (look on here for more info)
    Common water cooling systems cool only hot component and thus still require an air flow for other component. So you have 2 cooling systems instead of one and you degrade the performances of your air cooling system.
    With standard designs, a water leak has an huge risk of causing a lot of damage if it enters in contact with metal parts.

Remarks

    Pure water is a bad conductor of electricity
    Nearly every part of electronic components are coated with a non conductive coating. Only solder pads are not. So a few drops of water can be harmless
    Water risks can be mitigated by existing technical solutions

Cooling air reduces its capacity to contain water (humidity) and so there is a risk of condensation (bad for electronics). So when you cool air, you need to remove water. This requires energy. Normal humidity level for a human is around 70% of humidity.So it is possible that you need after cooling to put back water in your air for the people.
Total cost of a datacenter

When you consider cooling in a datacenter you have to take into account every part of it:

    Conditioning the air (filtering, removing excess humidity, moving it around...)
    Cool and hot air should never mix otherwise you lower your efficiency and there is a risk of hot spot (points that are not cooled enough)
    You need a system to extract the heat in excess or you have to limit the heat production density (less servers per rack)
    You may already have pipes to remove the heat from the room (to transport it up to the roof)

The cost of a datacenter is driven by its density (amount of servers per square meter) and its power consumption. (some other factors enters also into account but not for this discussion) Total datacenter surface is divided into the surface used by the server themselves, by the cooling system, by the utilities (electricity...) and by servicing rooms. If you have more server per rack, you need more cooling and so more space for cooling. This limits the actual density of your datacenter.
Habits

A datacenter is something highly complex that requires a lot of reliability. Statistics of downtime causes in a datacenter say that 80% of downtime are caused by human errors.

To achieve the best level of reliability, you need a lot of procedures and safety measures. So historically in datacenters, all of the procedures are made for air cooling systems and water is restricted to its safest use if not banned from datacenters. Basically, it is impossible for water to ever come into contact with servers.

Yes there are companies like HP who have water cooling solutions, and I saw them too, but very rare and in specific cases.

    Technically water is better
    Server design and datacenter designs are not adapted to water cooling
    Current maintenance and safety procedures forbid the use of water cooling inside servers
    No commercial product is good enough to be used in datacenters

Commercial product, not proprietary product made by a manufacture that only fits the same manufacture in specific cases.

Yes. All over the place. The advent of AIOs has transformed the marketplace. I'm seeing them in high-end workstations, ready-made gaming rigs and even training simulators. Anywhere you have high-demand workload and want to keep it cool quietly.

I'm the guy they call to air-drop in and clean up the mess when nobody else is willing to. My days are spent going from one business or datacenter to another, replacing network gear, CPUs, RAM, VRMs and PSUs in places locked down so tightly you need an escort and you put your phone in a locker before you enter.

Even in THOSE places I've been seeing liquid-cooled servers for years now. They use AIOs specifically configured for those servers; but the general config is the same: pump is still on the CPU, the chassis is designed so you can lift the entire cooler out as an assembly without disturbing the rest of the MB and the cooler is treated as a consumable supply. You are literally thinking 10 years ago technology, not today's. 

Cheers,

mnem
 

You don't know what I do, you don't know where I worked to assume that you are the only one with access to places so secure you need an escort... But well... I really will stop, nothing can really go through thick heads.

I hope the OP get the best config he can with the help of the ones who really know what they are saying... Or say in the correct way without conflict.

[mnementh]

GNIF, most of this argument is over whether or not it's WORTH the $40-80 difference of the X570 boards that will support pcie4.0, which we HAVE SEEN can support markedly faster throughput on even a single SSD with CURRENT hardware.

I think that's idiotic.

mnem
 

[Mr. Scram]

I have not read this thread in it's entirety, but figured i'd add my personal experience with the PCIe 3.0x bus in some extreme use circumstances.

I am the author of Looking Glass, a program that allows use of a Windows VM with a passthrough GPU inside of Linux by transferring the captured frame between GPUs via system RAM. We are talking about transferring 4K 100+FPS video across the PCIe bus while competing for GPU and CPU time and resources running pro CAD applications and AAA game titles.

3840 x 2160 x 4 = 33,177,600 bytes per frame x 100 = 3,317,760,000 bytes per second = 3GB/s

We can do this on a PCIe 3.0 bus, while PCIe 4.0 will help in some extremely rare corner cases, it's simply not that huge a deal at this point in time with the current workloads. Getting a CPU with more lanes IMO is far more useful then a PCIe 4.0 system. If you want to ensure you have enough lanes, go for a CPU with a ton of them like a Threadripper (note I am aware that this alone is too expensive for the OP's budget).

It's obvious that the benchmarks will show a notable difference, but the end user sitting in front of his computer and actually noticing a difference was already unlikely with the move from PCIe 2.0 to PCIe 3.0. Even your example would already be rather extreme and far from something any normal or power user encounters.

[gnif]

@mnementh, I think that you need to take a step back and cool down, I didn't argue for either side but simply stated my personal experiences.

Just for completeness, fluid (not water) cooling is getting more and more popular in data centres with the advent of fluids like 3M's immersion cooling products.

https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/novec-us/applications/immersion-cooling/

It's obvious that the benchmarks will show a notable difference, but the end user sitting in front of his computer and actually noticing a difference was already unlikely with the move from PCIe 2.0 to PCIe 3.0. Even your example would already be rather extreme and far from something any normal or power user encounters.

This is not a benchmark, Looking Glass is being used by hundreds of people over on the L1Tech forums and has been featured both in the L1Tech videos as well as on Linus Tech Tips. It is niche, but sees a ton of good real world usage across many different hardware platforms, from pcie x4 1.0 through to pcie x16 4.0. While I appreciate that you are pointing out that it is niche and not as common, it is a good example of how well the older busses hold up to modern workload with this additional overhead thrown on top.

[Black Phoenix]

Just for completeness, fluid (not water) cooling is getting more and more popular in data centres with the advent of fluids like 3M's immersion cooling products.

https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/novec-us/applications/immersion-cooling/

I was doing another big post about that... Saved a full wall of text.

[wraper]

which we HAVE SEEN can support markedly faster throughput on even a single SSD with CURRENT hardware.

And it will make zero difference in anything other than one trick pony benchmarks. Once it comes to combined load, zero difference as it won't be the limiting factor.

[Black Phoenix]

mnementh, as you like watching Linus, here you go. Nothing more than eye candy.

That review is flawed because the AIOs cold plate don't cover the totally of the Threadripper die:



Again Linus not being totally accurate with all the things.

[mnementh]

Yes I really wanted to see a Server in a 48U rack, one of the very top start leaking water to the others down him... Yes, a full rack burned...

So I will break my answer in serveral parts:

(SNIP WOT)

You don't know what I do, you don't know where I worked to assume that you are the only one with access to places so secure you need an escort... But well... I really will stop, nothing can really go through thick heads.

I hope the OP get the best config he can with the help of the ones who really know what they are saying... Or say in the correct way without conflict.

One of my regular clients is CIARA. That is what they make. Liquid-cooled high-speed servers. They have several clients with datacenters here in Houston FULL OF THEM. CIARA is NOT The only one; Lenovo is also making them, and I've even seen Dell servers with liquid-cooling on some of these locations.

Just because YOU don't believe in it doesn't make it not so. The arrogance of such a statement is simply staggering.

I have not read this thread in it's entirety, but figured i'd add my personal experience with the PCIe 3.0x bus in some extreme use circumstances.

I am the author of Looking Glass, a program that allows use of a Windows VM with a passthrough GPU inside of Linux by transferring the captured frame between GPUs via system RAM. We are talking about transferring 4K 100+FPS video across the PCIe bus while competing for GPU and CPU time and resources running pro CAD applications and AAA game titles.

3840 x 2160 x 4 = 33,177,600 bytes per frame x 100 = 3,317,760,000 bytes per second = 3GB/s

We can do this on a PCIe 3.0 bus, while PCIe 4.0 will help in some extremely rare corner cases, it's simply not that huge a deal at this point in time with the current workloads. Getting a CPU with more lanes IMO is far more useful then a PCIe 4.0 system. If you want to ensure you have enough lanes, go for a CPU with a ton of them like a Threadripper (note I am aware that this alone is too expensive for the OP's budget).

It's obvious that the benchmarks will show a notable difference, but the end user sitting in front of his computer and actually noticing a difference was already unlikely with the move from PCIe 2.0 to PCIe 3.0. Even your example would already be rather extreme and far from something any normal or power user encounters.

So you're saying it's not worth the $40-80 difference to lay the foundation with next-gen architecture THAT WE CAN ALREADY SEE IS MARKEDLY FASTER rather than continually looking backwards? REALLY?

Cheers,

mnem
I forgot to put something pithy down here.

[Mr. Scram]

@mnementh, I think that you need to take a step back and cool down, I didn't argue for either side but simply stated my personal experiences.

Just for completeness, fluid (not water) cooling is getting more and more popular in data centres with the advent of fluids like 3M's immersion cooling products.

https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/novec-us/applications/immersion-cooling/

This is not a benchmark, Looking Glass is being used by hundreds of people over on the L1Tech forums and has been featured both in the L1Tech videos as well as on Linus Tech Tips. It is niche, but sees a ton of good real world usage across many different hardware platforms, from pcie x4 1.0 through to pcie x16 4.0. While I appreciate that you are pointing out that it is niche and not as common, it is a good example of how well the older busses hold up to modern workload with this additional overhead thrown on top.

I fully agree, it's a rather convincing and telling example. I just meant to indicate that numbers in benchmarks don't always translate to performance in the real world. In the case of PCIe bandwidth, they regularly don't translate at all. Even when you compare SATA 3 and NVMe on PCIe 3.0, the difference is in many cases literally nil. No measurable difference in actual tasks performed, including a couple of decimal places. Obviously the difference between PCIe 3.0 and 4.0 is going to be even smaller in the real world, even if throughput is another story on paper and in benchmarks. There don't seem to be many real world examples of a workload where it would make a noticeable difference to the actual user, if any at all. Years in the future, perhaps.

[mnementh]

Again... all this argument over a $40-80 investment in a next-gen MB.

Idiotic.

mnem
 

[Black Phoenix]

One of my regular clients is CIARA. That is what they make. Liquid-cooled high-speed servers. They have several clients with datacenters here in Houston FULL OF THEM. CIARA is NOT The only one; Lenovo is also making them, and I've even seen Dell servers with liquid-cooling on some of these locations.
Just because YOU don't believe in it doesn't make it not so. The arrogance of such a statement is simply staggering.

Yes CiaraTech makes watercooling servers. The AIO is based in Asetek Design.

A 2U system with a closed loop water cooling set up made by asetek (called the ORION HF). We have fans that cool the RAD and the PCI cards. So far, our system with the 6950x runs at 4.3GHZ/4.4Ghz (we have 2 profiles loaded on the system, you choose which is more stable for your application). It uses the ASUS X99WS IPMI motherboard, with a special BIOS build made for CIARA by ASUS. Its built more for High Frequency Trading, but you add in a graphics card or GPU and you're set.

from LTT forums.

So do HP does. So do Lenovo, and Supermicro and Dell too.

I didn't said that it doesn't exist watercooling in servers, I stated the reasons why water is not the best in terms of watercooling for servers. And was starting to write something about the 3M liquid but someone already posted that, that was the conclusion of the big wall of text.

[gnif]

So you're saying it's not worth the $40-80 difference to lay the foundation with next-gen architecture THAT WE CAN ALREADY SEE IS MARKEDLY FASTER rather than continually looking backwards? REALLY?

Not at all, but since the OP is clearly on what I would consider a tight budget, for his limited amount of money that extra $40-80 could mean getting something else that is far more useful to them.

Also, just because it's the latest and greatest doesn't mean you should adopt it the first chance you get.

A-Bit brought out the first ATA 66 motherboards, which had a fatal flaw that randomly corrupted your HDDs making the bus unusable.
Fijitsu brought out the first budget home 6-10GB HDDs, that every single one failed due to the new method of encapsulating the controller IC.
Intel mass produced and sold the Intel Atom CPUs to the enterprise sector for mission critical infrastructure where flip-chip BGA construction was used, which are now all failing due to unforeseen issues with the at the time new technology.
Samsung brought out the first 1TB home SATA SSDs that suffered a fatal performance flaw due to issues with the wear levelling implemented in silicon that was rectified in later models.
AMD brought out the Ryzen 7 series of CPUs that have a critical bug that exhibits under Linux when doing multi threaded workloads causing a full system halt that was fixed in later revisions.

These are just a few examples of new tech having critical bugs/flaws in new unproven technology that has bitten the early adopters.

[Mr. Scram]

One of my regular clients is CIARA. That is what they make. Liquid-cooled high-speed servers. They have several clients with datacenters here in Houston FULL OF THEM. CIARA is NOT The only one; Lenovo is also making them, and I've even seen Dell servers with liquid-cooling on some of these locations.

Just because YOU don't believe in it doesn't make it not so. The arrogance of such a statement is simply staggering.


So you're saying it's not worth the $40-80 difference to lay the foundation with next-gen architecture rather than continually looking backwards? REALLY?

Cheers,

mnem
I forgot to put something pithy down here.

Taking my comments in my previous post into account, I don't see it making a real difference anytime soon and definitely not a significant difference. In benchmarks it's faster, in the real world it doesn't appear to be. If I had any reason to think beanflying would actually benefit from the upgrade in the next 5 years I'd probably recommend going with the upgrade. Instead, it's money which can make an actual quantifiable impact elsewhere. Don't get me wrong, I understand the urge to buy that thing with the highest number and more being better regardless. But that's a game of pride and not one which takes the actual demands and limitations into account. I fully understand people going "sod it" and just flat out buying the latest and greatest for the sake of it, but that has little to do with use cases. I also don't think that was the intention of this thread, or the budget.

[olkipukki]

I don't know how many actually tried a water-cooling and what have changed for last 5-6 years with tech,
but I were trying to "eliminate" a noise for non-overlocking X-series and Xeon class CPUs that sat in boxes near to me.

This is my one of worst purchase in decade, obsolete sh$t with very creepy noise!

Eventually, money very well spend on a bigger case and traditional "beefy" coolers.

[Mr. Scram]

Not at all, but since the OP is clearly on what I would consider a tight budget, for his limited amount of money that extra $40-80 could mean getting something else that is far more useful to them.

Also, just because it's the latest and greatest doesn't mean you should adopt it the first chance you get.

A-Bit brought out the first ATA 66 motherboards, which had a fatal flaw that randomly corrupted your HDDs making the bus unusable.
Fijitsu brought out the first budget home 6-10GB HDDs, that every single one failed due to the new method of encapsulating the controller IC.
Intel mass produced and sold the Intel Atom CPUs to the enterprise sector for mission critical infrastructure where flip-chip BGA construction was used, which are now all failing due to unforeseen issues with the at the time new technology.
Samsung brought out the first 1TB home SATA SSDs that suffered a fatal performance flaw due to issues with the wear levelling implemented in silicon that was rectified in later models.
AMD brought out the Ryzen 7 series of CPUs that have a critical bug that exhibits under Linux when doing multi threaded workloads causing a full system halt that was fixed in later revisions.

These are just a few examples of new tech having critical bugs/flaws in new unproven technology that has bitten the early adopters.

Remember those first motherboards with USB 3.0, which used a separate controller chip which was often actually slower and less reliable than the native USB 2.X connections on the same boards? Or the same story when SATA3 was introduced? Lots of fun, lots of confused people. I'm not saying that'll be the case here, but they're definitely examples of early adopter woes.

[Mr. Scram]

I don't know how many actually tried AIO water and what have changed for last 5-6 years with tech,
but I were trying to "eliminate" a noise for non-overlocking X-series and Xeon class CPUs that sat in boxes near to me.

This is my one of worst purchase in decade, obsolete sh$t with very creepy noise!

Eventually, money very well spend on a bigger case and traditional "beefy" coolers.

It seems to be accepted that air is quieter. I would personally go with air, but can see a special use case in sustained rendering a hot shack. AIOs do seem to cool a bit more effectively, although the extra headroom is generally intended for overclocking. beanflying, are you intending to overclock?

[mnementh]

Not at all, but since the OP is clearly on what I would consider a tight budget, for his limited amount of money that extra $40-80 could mean getting something else that is far more useful to them.

Also, just because it's the latest and greatest doesn't mean you should adopt it the first chance you get.

A-Bit brought out the first ATA 66 motherboards, which had a fatal flaw that randomly corrupted your HDDs making the bus unusable.
Fijitsu brought out the first budget home 6-10GB HDDs, that every single one failed due to the new method of encapsulating the controller IC.
Intel mass produced and sold the Intel Atom CPUs to the enterprise sector for mission critical infrastructure where flip-chip BGA construction was used, which are now all failing due to unforeseen issues with the at the time new technology.
Samsung brought out the first 1TB home SATA SSDs that suffered a fatal performance flaw due to issues with the wear levelling implemented in silicon that was rectified in later models.
AMD brought out the Ryzen 7 series of CPUs that have a critical bug that exhibits under Linux when doing multi threaded workloads causing a full system halt that was fixed in later revisions.

These are just a few examples of new tech having critical bugs/flaws in new unproven technology that has bitten the early adopters.

Remember those first motherboards with USB 3.0, which used a separate controller chip which was often actually slower and less reliable than the native USB 2.X connections on the same boards? Or the same story when SATA3 was introduced? Lots of fun, lots of confused people. I'm not saying that'll be the case here, but they're definitely examples of early adopter woes.

Now there's something we can agree upon. I've been bitten by the early-adopter snake; it lies in wait for all of us tech-heads.  But truly; rarely has the cost of that mistake been so small as seen here. 

I know bean he can handle that little bit of extra dosh; and IF he gets a raging nerd-boner for something he WILL spend the money. I also know a little more about his projected workload. He really does want an 8K video rendering beast. We've already been over all that in thread.

And since we're getting all historical here... Historically speaking and technologically as well, we are literally on the verge right now of a generational leap in hardware, not an incremental one. A shifting point where what used to be top-of-the-line quickly becomes entry-level, if relevant at all. The timing is right, all the indicators point to it... it appears the problem for a lot of people is that THIS TIME, it's AMD pushing the envelope. 

I think for that price it's a small enough gamble, and the rewards already visible enough that it's better to not wait for Intel to get around to it.

mnem
boo!

[gnif]

Air is quieter then AIO, but custom loop is even quieter and more flexible IMO Here is my current radiator.



However it's now under a shroud and the pump is outside too. I love having my TR 1950X clocked at 4GHz, c-states disabled, and zero room noise, and with the current outside temperature of 1.2C

[Mr. Scram]

Air is quieter then AIO, but custom loop is even quieter and more flexible IMO Here is my current radiator.

(Attachment Link)

However it's now under a shroud and the pump it outside too. I love having my TR 1950X clocked at 4GHz, c-states disabled, and zero room noise, and with the current outside temperature of 1.2C

(Attachment Link)

That's awesome! Is that a full copper setup? I've always toyed with the idea of doing something similar, but I'm absolutely positively too lazy to maintain a custom loop consistently over the lifetime of a machine. Forgetting to dust your air cooler won't get you into trouble as quickly and is more easily fixed. Dead reliability combined with low maintenance is generally what I'm aiming for.

[mnementh]

I don't know how many actually tried a water-cooling and what have changed for last 5-6 years with tech,
but I were trying to "eliminate" a noise for non-overlocking X-series and Xeon class CPUs that sat in boxes near to me.

This is my one of worst purchase in decade, obsolete sh$t with very creepy noise!

Eventually, money very well spend on a bigger case and traditional "beefy" coolers.

I am. I'm using the cheapest 120x240 AIO I could buy, BOUGHT ON PURPOSE to see how horrible it could be. Turns out, not at all. Fair moldings, glas-reinforced plastic, solid copper plate with proper milling and micro-grooving on the wet side. I can see it turning in my AMD dashboard, and pump noise is nonexistent. The VRM switching noise from my MB is louder. Six 120mm speed-controlled fans also make a whisper of noise that covers all other noise; but seriously... with the fans turned off, all I can hear is the whistle from my VRM.

The REASON I went liquid is BECAUSE I saw it deployed in commercial settings in my work environment. I figured if they're using it on servers, we must have most of the bugs worked out by now. My machine runs pretty much non-stop if I'm home; I stream Amazon music whether or not I'm not rotting my brain in threads like this one. 30-45° idle to full workload at 22-25° ambient, baby. And easy as pie to mount.

And I expect current offings from Corsair, etc to be markedly better quality yet; so yes... I believe liquid-cooling is finally a mature enough technology to be considered "mainstream".

mnem
*tzzzzt*

[gnif]

I agree entirely that AMD are the ones pushing the envelope however I am also well aware (because I am working with AMD on them) that the new AMD generations have major bugs that AMD had fixed that keep coming back in each generation.

AMD Threadripper:
  * Issue that prevents PCI devices from being reset making them inaccessible until a hard reboot is performed.
  * CPU scheduler on the last core was not exposed to the OS preventing it from being set to a performance profile.
  * CPU core numbering didn't follow the already set Intel standard preventing the OS from knowing which threads were paired for each HT pair per core.
  * CPU core numbering was changed to fix the above, but then reverted in the next update, and then fixed again in the update after that
  * Missing CPU scheduler bug returned and then was fixed again
  * NUMA issues... oh so many NUMA issues
  * IOMMU groupings keep getting changed around every few updates (if you use SR-IOV or VFIO, you care about this)

These are all mostly fixed now except for the reset issue, it still plagues some as it's partly CPU related and chip-set related.
Then AMD released the Zen+ CPUs a year later and PCI reset issues that were fixed for TR are back, and the cause is the same issue...

AMD Vega (All variants):
  * Random hard crashes under Linux with the official AMDGPU drivers
  * Broken support to reset the SOC and return it to an operational state
  * Missing support to program the SOC for PCIe 3.0 bus speeds under Linux (maybe windows too)

If you ever wanted to use NPT (nested page tables) for virtualization with sr-iov devices (ie, network/gpu device pass-through) your performance would have been sub-par because of a bug that AMD failed to identify and fix in the Linux kernel for 10+ years which I ended up fixing.

This makes me doubt the new PCIe 4.0 technology and chipsets, I personally will be holding off until the tech has seen more widespread usage.

[mnementh]

Air is quieter then AIO, but custom loop is even quieter and more flexible IMO Here is my current radiator:

   However it's now under a shroud and the pump is outside too. I love having my TR 1950X clocked at 4GHz, c-states disabled, and zero room noise, and with the current outside temperature of 1.2C

Now THAT is an unfair advantage, and hardly representative!!!

But seriously... AIOs are now being designed and targeted to the "quiet performance" market. See where the $75 Corsair H100b I suggested comes up both on cooling and noise compared to most other coolers... and you KNOW it will maintain that cooling more consistently and with a flatter response slope (until it dies, of course): https://www.anandtech.com/bench/CPUCooling/774

I think the big argument here is not over the tech itself... it's over an unreasonable expectation of lifetime. Yes, it is unreasonable to expect an AIO to last more than 3-5 years. That's fine, as long as you treat it as a consumable supply like a fan. Yes, SOME fans last 10 years or more... I have a Silent Copper cooler that is 15 years old and was still working, still quiet on my old build just before I went with the AIO.

But EXPECTING that lifespan out of a cooler is unreasonable. And poo-pooing liquid-cooling by comparison to that as others in here have done is unreasonable.

mnem
 

[gnif]

That's awesome! Is that a full copper setup? I've always toyed with the idea of doing something similar, but I'm absolutely positively too lazy to maintain a custom loop consistently over the lifetime of a machine. Forgetting to dust your air cooler won't get you into trouble as quickly and is more easily fixed. Dead reliability combined with low maintenance is generally what I'm aiming for.

Thanks, yes it's full copper if you count the brass radiator as copper . If you're aware of galvanic corrosion it's easily preventable allowing you to mix metals in your loop, just make sure there is no electrical path between the components of differing metals outside of the coolant itself. I have run copper blocks with aluminium radiators for years without issue simply by mounting the radiator using nylon screws.

Having the radiator outside makes maintenance so much easier, I soldered on a tap to cut the supply so I can simply go outside and turn the tap off, then disconnect the loop letting the just the pipes drain out so I can work on the PC. That said though I am yet to have to actually service this setup, the thermal mass is just insane and with the surface area I don't even need to run fans, so dust buildup is not an issue.

[Mr. Scram]

Now THAT is an unfair advantage, and hardly representative!!!

But seriously... AIOs are now being designed and targeted to the "quiet performance" market. See where the $75 Corsair H100b I suggested comes up both on cooling and noise compared to most other coolers... and you KNOW it will maintain that cooling more consistently and with a flatter response slope (until it dies, of course): https://www.anandtech.com/bench/CPUCooling/774

I think the big argument here is not over the tech itself... it's over an unreasonable expectation of lifetime. Yes, it is unreasonable to expect an AIO to last more than 3-5 years. That's fine, as long as you treat it as a consumable supply like a fan. Yes, SOME fans last 10 years or more... I have a Silent Copper cooler that is 15 years old and was still working, still quiet on my old build just before I went with the AIO.

But EXPECTING that lifespan out of a cooler is unreasonable. And poo-pooing liquid-cooling by comparison to that as others in here have done is unreasonable.

mnem
 

If I've learnt anything it's that the silent computing crowd is anything but uniform. One guy calls his system dead silent, the other can't stand to bear it. There's a huge product and end consumer gradient.

[Simon]

Having the radiator outside makes maintenance so much easier, I soldered on a tap to cut the supply so I can simply go outside and turn the tap off, then disconnect the loop letting the just the pipes drain out so I can work on the PC. That said though I am yet to have to actually service this setup, the thermal mass is just insane and with the surface area I don't even need to run fans, so dust buildup is not an issue.

If I ever did water cooling I would do that. I work for a radiator company and it was instantly obvious to me that these vehicle radiators that dissipate KW's of heat will take the sub 0.1KW output of a CPU in their stride, yes masses of surface area and masses of inertia.

I once poured a kettle of boiling water into a radiator about 200x100x30mm, it didn't even warm up (I was hoping to clean it out)

[Simon]

If I've learnt anything it's that the silent computing crowd is anything but uniform. One guy calls his system dead silent, the other can't stand to bear it. There's a huge product and end consumer gradient.

People have different tolerances to noise and noise pitch. I find fans highly annoying and am the one at work that cleans the air con filters out in the hope of cutting the noise levels. I am air cooled on my PC but an idling Ryzen 7 2700 uses next to nothing and I have lots of fans but set to very slow. I don't think fan noise in proportional to speed, it is exponential so a fan at 20% is virtually silent.

[gnif]

If I've learnt anything it's that the silent computing crowd is anything but uniform. One guy calls his system dead silent, the other can't stand to bear it. There's a huge product and end consumer gradient.

Yes, I couldn't agree more, I thought my older R7 system was quiet on it's custom water loop until I started to want to perform voice recordings in my "quiet" office. I quickly found out how "not quiet" my office was. Each source of noise I eliminated just exposed another source of noise. In the end I put the radiator and pump outside, put waterblocks on my GPUs, modified my 2RU UPS (24V fan on 12V) and then found it was still too loud so moved it out of the room, configured my SAS array to power down while not in use (only used during a daily backup for 30 minutes).

Each stage of making things more quiet, I became more attune to noises in the room that used to be drowned out by the last thing that was noisy. I finally got to a point where the only noise I can hear is the very slight hiss from my power amp when I leave it turned on.

Now when you enter my office it sounds like there is nothing running at all, and it's actually a bit eerie.

[mnementh]

I agree entirely that AMD are the ones pushing the envelope however I am also well aware (because I am working with AMD on them) that the new AMD generations have major bugs that AMD had fixed that keep coming back in each generation.

AMD Threadripper:
  * Issue that prevents PCI devices from being reset making them inaccessible until a hard reboot is performed.
  * CPU scheduler on the last core was not exposed to the OS preventing it from being set to a performance profile.
  * CPU core numbering didn't follow the already set Intel standard preventing the OS from knowing which threads were paired for each HT pair per core.
  * CPU core numbering was changed to fix the above, but then reverted in the next update, and then fixed again in the update after that
  * Missing CPU scheduler bug returned and then was fixed again
  * NUMA issues... oh so many NUMA issues
  * IOMMU groupings keep getting changed around every few updates (if you use SR-IOV or VFIO, you care about this)

These are all mostly fixed now except for the reset issue, it still plagues some as it's partly CPU related and chip-set related.
Then AMD released the Zen+ CPUs a year later and PCI reset issues that were fixed for TR are back, and the cause is the same issue...

AMD Vega (All variants):
  * Random hard crashes under Linux with the official AMDGPU drivers
  * Broken support to reset the SOC and return it to an operational state
  * Missing support to program the SOC for PCIe 3.0 bus speeds under Linux (maybe windows too)

If you ever wanted to use NPT (nested page tables) for virtualization with sr-iov devices (ie, network/gpu device pass-through) your performance would have been sub-par because of a bug that AMD failed to identify and fix in the Linux kernel for 10+ years which I ended up fixing.

This makes me doubt the new PCIe 4.0 technology and chipsets, I personally will be holding off until the tech has seen more widespread usage.

Yes, but THOSE KINDS of problems ARE NOT AMD-exclusive.  Intel and their chipsets have been fraught with boneheaded mistakes all along as well; and lets not forget we have two whole generations of computers out there... nearly every personal-use machine in the wild... that is just a massive security risk (and producing flawed results) due to speculative execution as it is implemented today. This is all a direct result of the dangerously close relationship between Intel and Microsoft. Even the related problems that AMD has with speculative processing, while generally not as severe, are STILL a result of having to work with the product of that unholy cabal. 

And in AMD's defense... a lot of your miseries with AMD and *NIX are by definition self-inflicted. It's not like there isn't a whole raft of similar types of problems... a flotilla of them, even... with Intel and *NIX. 

Be glad for AMD and them being willing to make mistakes to push the envelope. If not for them and Intel had their way, all "personal computers" would still be 32-bit, and everybody waiting, waiting, waiting with baited breath every quarter as they dole out a few hundred more MHz on the umpteenth revision of the original PENTIUM platform.

mnem
 

[gnif]

  You entirely missed the point, pushing the envelope doesn't mean they are bad or should be avoided, it does however means that they are prone to making mistakes just like intel and every other company on the face of the planet which is why I don't advocate being an early adopter of this technology, not because of hearsay but personal experience with this new frontier which I avidly support.

I have issues with *NIX and AMD are because I am a software engineer and I am helping to fix them to make AMD a better platform which is why I have a direct line to engineers at AMD and even had the fortune to communicate directly with Lisa Su on Vega reset issues. These issues also DO affect Windows, but because of the closed source nature of Windows and how the task scheduler works we just get a random "windows update" that makes AMD perform better with no real details. I can say for a fact that it's the same issues we are seeing in Linux

The difference is, we have an update that fixes these issues a full year before Windows.

If not for them and Intel had their way, all "personal computers" would still be 32-bit, and everybody waiting, waiting, waiting with baited breath every quarter as they dole out a few hundred more MHz on the umpteenth revision of the original PENTIUM platform.

Please fact check before you make such assertions, 64-bit was available to the home computing group well before the Athlon 64 was released. While in the end it was a commercial flop, the Itanium (2001) was available well before the x86_64 (2003) architecture to the home market (remember XP 64-bit), and even earlier was the IBM PowerPC POWER3 (1998), or even the Sun UltraSPARC from 1995. While you may not consider these home PCs, the equivalent PC enthusiasts of that era either had, or had access to these machines. In fact I have an UltraSPARC in my garage. You can even go as far back as 1991 with the MIPS R4000 which was used in the 1996 Nintendo 64

64-bit was the natural progression, not because Intel or AMD had to say so, but because we had hit the 3.2GB RAM limit (pre-PAE) and in order to make use of more ram a solution was required, the most obvious being to move to a 64-bit architecture while retaining backwards comparability with x86 (which is why the Itanium was a flop in the home market)

[mnementh]

Yeah, but somebody's gotta be the first. I like shiny-new bleeding edge EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE. I didn't miss the point; I was coming to the same conclusion from a different route. 

And YES, Itanium was available...  for an ungodly amount, if you wanted to run NT or some other server/workstation OS. I wonder why it was a commercial flop. It was still not even close to being properly supported by Microsoft/Windows who deliberately castrated XP 64-bit so it WOULDN'T run worth a shit until Intel got their asses in gear. It's not hearsay to me; I lived through it. And I still have the XP/64 licenses to prove it.

And yes, you'd think THAT experience would have taught me not to be an early adopter... 

Having the radiator outside makes maintenance so much easier, I soldered on a tap to cut the supply so I can simply go outside and turn the tap off, then disconnect the loop letting the just the pipes drain out so I can work on the PC. That said though I am yet to have to actually service this setup, the thermal mass is just insane and with the surface area I don't even need to run fans, so dust buildup is not an issue.

If I ever did water cooling I would do that. I work for a radiator company and it was instantly obvious to me that these vehicle radiators that dissipate KW's of heat will take the sub 0.1KW output of a CPU in their stride, yes masses of surface area and masses of inertia.

I once poured a kettle of boiling water into a radiator about 200x100x30mm, it didn't even warm up (I was hoping to clean it out)

My first foray into liquid-cooling decades ago on an AthlonIIx64 was with a leftover NOS heater core for a Ford Pickup truck. It was ~ 200mm x 200mm x 50mm, and it was easy to solder 3/8" hose barbs on the tubes. I attached it and a 120VAC water-fountain pump to a small 120 VAC tabletop box fan for a quick & dirty setup that actually worked remarkably well, but you needed to turn fan/rad and all sideways to get it to burp whenever you moved the thing. Compared to the screaming 60mm CPU fans of the day, that thing was effing silent.

mnem
Don't read this.

[gnif]

And YES, Itanium was available...  for an ungodly amount, if you wanted to run NT or some other server/workstation OS. I wonder why it was a commercial flop. It was still not even close to being properly supported by Microsoft/Windows who deliberately castrated XP 64-bit so it WOULDN'T run worth a shit until Intel got their asses in gear. It's not hearsay to me; I lived through it.

Microsoft had nothing to do with the flop of the Itanium, the lack of backwards compatibility was the issue and even Intel directly acknowledged it.

The Itanium was a bad move both from a software and hardware point of view, every vendor had to redevelop their software and/or drivers to make it operate on this new architecture practically overnight. It took Microsoft several years to update windows for x86_64 and the result was Vista, was this also Microsoft trying to "deliberately castrate" their own software?

For years many people had 64-bit capable CPUs (AMD and Intel) but were not running them in 64-bit mode simply because OS support wasn't great yet and vendors knew it, so they didn't provide it, CPU vendors even went as far as to add PAE to allow addressing more then 3.2GB of RAM because of how slow 64-bit software adoption was. I don't think you understand how complex the paradigm shift to a 64-bit architecture truly was and why early attempts such as XP 64bit didn't meet expectations.

In short, to say that we only have 64-bit due to AMD is simply not true, if it wasn't for the entire industry pushing for it, and the lessons learned by Motorola, IBM, Intel and AMD we would likely still be using 32-bit.

[mnementh]

Well, sure, before it was JUST AMD pushing them we had Motorola, CYRIX & TI too.  The point is that Intel showed the world exactly how they expected the CPU lifecycle to play out with the Pentium platform. A few hundred MHz on the same design for quarter after quarter... play out the design for every cent they can get, rather than the constant drive we have now towards better and faster based on what technology can actually do, NOT what they can market. All they want is for the world to go back to those halcyon days of yore... 

While saying "If AMD hadn't released a 64-bit processor aimed at the Windows-user market with a competitive pricing scheme, consumers would STILL TODAY be relegated to 32-bit with 64-bit reserved only for servers and high-end workstations." is a bit of an exaggeration, it is not MUCH of one. At the very least it would have been years or even a decade later; when Intel decided they'd milked 32-bit for all it was worth.

And none of this changes the fact that Intel has a dangerously close relationship with Microsoft, just as Microsoft also has a dangerously close relationship with Dell, both of which gain market share simply because of those preferential relationships.

Perhaps my view of this history we've both lived through is cynical; but I feel it is more a matter of not allowing the power players any more slack than absolutely necessary. I know they're in it to stack things in their favor; that is the nature of things. I don't confuse "choosing the least evil of the available evils" with "endorsing or actually liking" them.

But I still like everything I've seen about the X570 product line, and I'm still gonna buy it and build around it. 

mnem

[beanflying]

To early for popcorn so I opted for a two coffee read 

Seems the firmware on the 570 boards is still about 'beta' based on some follow up talking head youtube videos not that I am going there. My $ are going elsewhere where they will do some good with the system NOW not what might be later. All the planned bits will work on the 550/570 platform should I think it needed or a benefit later. Going AIR cooling for much the same reasons.

More importantly the Guatemalan HueHueTenango is a bit fresh yet but shows promise.

[beanflying]

Apart from the CPU and GPU the $ have been dropped. $528 USD ($830 AUpesos including GST)

Corsair Vengeance LPX 32GB C16
Gigabyte B450 WiFi MB (ATX not mITX)
Samsung 970 Plus 500GB
H500 Cooler Master Case
650 Bronze semi modular PS Cooler Master

All items were purchased from Bricks and Mortar Australian businesses with Ebay stores. Interesting I went to the trouble of looking at Amazon, New Egg and evilbay along with the sellers www websites - Evilbay with discounts won by a chunk.

Another coffee then time to find a 3700X 

[Simon]

I still don't get anyones need for 32GB of RAM unless they have an actual use for it. I do everything on 16GB and no pagefile.

[Black Phoenix]

 

[beanflying]

I still don't get anyones need for 32GB of RAM unless they have an actual use for it. I do everything on 16GB and no pagefile.

Not sure if you have had a complete read of the thread but DaVinci Resolve and 4K video is the culprit in my case. 16GB would work absolutely but 32GB will do it better and faster.

[Black Phoenix]

Davinci is way well optimised and supported compared with Premiere. More and more people are changing to Davinci instead of Premiere.

[Simon]

Well if you have an actual use for it fair enough. Last time I was asking for advice for my new machine built 7 months ago I had people claiming to be experts and claiming that 64GB on any machine was a must. I am still iusing 16GB like the old machine and can run 3D CAD with lots of browser tabs and circuit studio running as well.

[beanflying]

Did the deal on a 3700X for $312 USD ($491 AUpesos with GST) so just under the MSRP delivered.

After some more looking at GPU's I reached what I think is the correct thoughts is sit on my hands for 2-3 months until Navi and the Super Nvidea triplets sort themselves out on price and stability. To that end I brought a lightly gamed Gigabyte RX580 to tide me over for $167 USD ($239 pesos). Most likely I will look at Card and Monitor upgrades together and resell the RX 580.

So I have failed to meet my $1k budget coming in at $1007

Now all I have to do is stalk the delivery drivers over the next week. Meanwhile cheers All for the input so far, manly Pink Gins all round

[beanflying]

As to be expected a bit of poo flinging at the 3700X against over clocked Intels given the gaming focus of the channel but as a workbeast watch from 14 minutes onward for non game benchmarking of it and some of the other options. 3600, 3900X and some of the I9-xxx's

Not the Odd man Out if you want affordable Workbeast with a bit of gaming on the side and forget about over clocking it is close to max as stock.

[Mr. Scram]

Well if you have an actual use for it fair enough. Last time I was asking for advice for my new machine built 7 months ago I had people claiming to be experts and claiming that 64GB on any machine was a must. I am still iusing 16GB like the old machine and can run 3D CAD with lots of browser tabs and circuit studio running as well.

Even 8 GB is very workable. It's better to have more, but you can definitely get some real work done with it. Running a proper CAD package and Photoshop next to each other isn't a big ask.

[beanflying]

Sitting at just on 6GB memory use with Fusion open on a fairly simple model and 4 open Firefox tabs. Windoze combined tasks would be maybe a third of that 

I thinks that while 8GB 'works' due to lazy and more powerful code its days are numbered if you want to do more than browse the web or single tasks.

[Mr. Scram]

Sitting at just on 6GB memory use with Fusion open on a fairly simple model and 4 open Firefox tabs. Windoze combined tasks would be maybe a third of that 

I thinks that while 8GB 'works' due to lazy and more powerful code its days are numbered if you want to do more than browse the web or single tasks.

The new Firefox architecture seems to eat more RAM than it used to. I've done rather complicated things within 8 GB, but as I said it's better to have more.

[Simon]

Well if you have an actual use for it fair enough. Last time I was asking for advice for my new machine built 7 months ago I had people claiming to be experts and claiming that 64GB on any machine was a must. I am still iusing 16GB like the old machine and can run 3D CAD with lots of browser tabs and circuit studio running as well.

Even 8 GB is very workable. It's better to have more, but you can definitely get some real work done with it. Running a proper CAD package and Photoshop next to each other isn't a big ask.

Indeed, I have a small touchscreen laptop with 8GB that also runs with no virtual memory. Granted I con't use it as a workhorse but it's not meant to be my engineering workstation just a portable machine for use on the go. I'd not go less than 8GB though.

[Mr. Scram]

Indeed, I have a small touchscreen laptop with 8GB that also runs with no virtual memory. Granted I con't use it as a workhorse but it's not meant to be my engineering workstation just a portable machine for use on the go. I'd not go less than 8GB though.

The Surface Pro line up had a 4 GB model up to the current generation. This model was and still is fairly popular in the enterprise world and there are a a lot of people working with them without issues. Microsoft is obviously thinking about longevity and possibly future features in Windows 10 and has now finally upgraded all models to at least 8 GB. Systems can be fairly frugal if they have to although you obviously start depending on virtual memory more and more.

[Simon]

Yea, virtual memory, the old fashioned waf of saying that "this system is now useless and needs to be tossed out". Virtual memory was fine in the old days when we had no option and the proccessors were slower and single core. These days relying on virtual memory is stupid and if you are going to use virtual memory you may as well toss the CPU out and get a cheaper one and use the difference for the RAM because that will actually be faster with a mechanical drive. Mechanical drives have not gone up in speed much and if you want to use your nice expensive SSD as RAM and ruin it's life span you may as well spend the money on more RAM.

[wraper]

Yea, virtual memory, the old fashioned waf of saying that "this system is now useless and needs to be tossed out". Virtual memory was fine in the old days when we had no option and the proccessors were slower and single core. These days relying on virtual memory is stupid and if you are going to use virtual memory you may as well toss the CPU out and get a cheaper one and use the difference for the RAM because that will actually be faster with a mechanical drive. Mechanical drives have not gone up in speed much and if you want to use your nice expensive SSD as RAM and ruin it's life span you may as well spend the money on more RAM.

If you have SSD (which you certainly should), virtual memory is not that bad at all.

[Simon]

If you have SSD (which you certainly should), virtual memory is not that bad at all.

Performance will be "ggod" but SSD's are not designed to be used as RAM, I value my data. Right tool for the job and all that.

[wraper]

If you have SSD (which you certainly should), virtual memory is not that bad at all.

Performance will be "ggod" but SSD's are not designed to be used as RAM, I value my data. Right tool for the job and all that.

IMO it's less evil than windows 8/10 by default not shutting down completely and sort of hibernating instead. The most stupid part is that it makes shutdown way slower but boot is not noticeably faster if at all when you use SSD, not HDD. FWIW you need to do something quite extreme to wear out flash memory in SSD. Almost all SSD failures are not related to exceeding write limit of NAND FLASH.

[Mr. Scram]

Yea, virtual memory, the old fashioned waf of saying that "this system is now useless and needs to be tossed out". Virtual memory was fine in the old days when we had no option and the proccessors were slower and single core. These days relying on virtual memory is stupid and if you are going to use virtual memory you may as well toss the CPU out and get a cheaper one and use the difference for the RAM because that will actually be faster with a mechanical drive. Mechanical drives have not gone up in speed much and if you want to use your nice expensive SSD as RAM and ruin it's life span you may as well spend the money on more RAM.

Wearing out your SSD has never been an issue in the real world with anything remotely resembling a sane workload. People were very worried about this when SSDs were new and were frantically turning off page files and whatnot, but it turns out it doesn't make a difference. The big vendors don't seem to configure the systems they sell with SSDs any differently either. Virtual RAM works fine, especially if it's an occasional workload. NVMe obviously does the job even better.

[beanflying]

Interesting read seems 'some' B450 and 470 MB's could be made to run PCIe4 with a Bios update. Way to 'speed up' your virtual memory 

Speaking of B450 boards mine arrived late yesterday. Ordered from a medium sized Perth Company and Shipped direct to me from a Melbourne warehouse 3,500 road km's away. Home many European countries apart would that be ?

https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/ryzen-3000-asus-opens-up-pcie-4-support-for-selected-x470-and-b450-boards.html

[Simon]

Interesting read seems 'some' B450 and 470 MB's could be made to run PCIe4 with a Bios update. Way to 'speed up' your virtual memory 

Are you serious? the interface is always faster than the actual storage.

[Simon]

Wearing out your SSD has never been an issue in the real world with anything remotely resembling a sane workload. People were very worried about this when SSDs were new and were frantically turning off page files and whatnot, but it turns out it doesn't make a difference. The big vendors don't seem to configure the systems they sell with SSDs any differently either. Virtual RAM works fine, especially if it's an occasional workload. NVMe obviously does the job even better.

Why would a PC retailer make deliberate change to default windows settings that make the machine last longer? By default windows also defragments the drive in the background.

[wraper]

Interesting read seems 'some' B450 and 470 MB's could be made to run PCIe4 with a Bios update. Way to 'speed up' your virtual memory 

Are you serious? the interface is always faster than the actual storage.

PCI-E 3.0 x4 is already a limiting factor for fastest drives from a few years ago. Read speed is as high as interface speed. Upcoming PCI-E 4.0 drives are way faster than 3.0 interface, though their controllers run very hot.

[wraper]

Why would a PC retailer make deliberate change to default windows settings that make the machine last longer? By default windows also defragments the drive in the background.

It doesn't run defragmentation on SSD. And on HDD it actually prolongs it's life.

[Mr. Scram]

Why would a PC retailer make deliberate change to default windows settings that make the machine last longer? By default windows also defragments the drive in the background.

Warranty and support contracts. Reduced longevity will inevitably land in their lap before the hardware is replaced naturally. Windows detects SSDs and turns defragmentation off, unless you're a fossil running Vista. I don't know why people here seem to insist on stories how the man is out to get them. He might be but not in the manner portrayed. 

https://www.howtogeek.com/256859/dont-waste-time-optimizing-your-ssd-windows-knows-what-its-doing/

[nctnico]

Yea, virtual memory, the old fashioned waf of saying that "this system is now useless and needs to be tossed out". Virtual memory was fine in the old days when we had no option and the proccessors were slower and single core. These days relying on virtual memory is stupid and if you are going to use virtual memory you may as well toss the CPU out and get a cheaper one and use the difference for the RAM because that will actually be faster with a mechanical drive. Mechanical drives have not gone up in speed much and if you want to use your nice expensive SSD as RAM and ruin it's life span you may as well spend the money on more RAM.

Wearing out your SSD has never been an issue in the real world with anything remotely resembling a sane workload. People were very worried about this when SSDs were new and were frantically turning off page files and whatnot, but it turns out it doesn't make a difference. The big vendors don't seem to configure the systems they sell with SSDs any differently either. Virtual RAM works fine, especially if it's an occasional workload. NVMe obviously does the job even better.

This is a meaningless claim without specifying the lifetime expectance the vendors aim for (probably 3 or 4 years of office use). The fact is that an SSD has a limited number of write operations and the data needs to be refreshed too. And thus enabling virtual memory will decrease the life on an SSD (especially on Windows which seems to put stuff into virtual memory even when it isn't necessary at all). Another consideration is whether it is useful to have several GB as virtual memory on an SSD. It will be 100 times slower than the system memory (even with a very fast SSD) so the computer will slow down to a crawl anyway. I'm baffled that Windows still enables virtual memory on a machine with several GB of memory. There is no upside to using virtual memory due to the speed impact. Needless to say I always disable virtual memory to get the best performance from a computer.

[Mr. Scram]

This is a meaningless claim without specifying the lifetime expectance the vendors aim for (probably 3 or 4 years of office use). The fact is that an SSD has a limited number of write operations and the data needs to be refreshed too. And thus enabling virtual memory will decrease the life on an SSD (especially on Windows which seems to put stuff into virtual memory even when it isn't necessary at all). Another consideration is whether it is useful to have several GB as virtual memory on an SSD. It will be 100 times slower than the system memory (even with a very fast SSD) so the computer will slow down to a crawl anyway. I'm baffled that Windows still enables virtual memory on a machine with several GB of memory. There is no upside to using virtual memory due to the speed impact. Needless to say I always disable virtual memory to get the best performance from a computer.

Various independent parties have done their own testing and the results have consistently been that it's pretty much impossible to wear an SSD out. They'll wear out eventually but people needn't worry about it any more than any of their other components wearing out. More importantly, bigger SSDs can handle more writes before running into trouble and the sizes are still increasing quickly. Wearing out an SSD eventually before the computer has become obsolete is unlikely even with silly workloads.

It should be noted NVMe drives are not as quick as RAM but are still pretty good. It cannot be compared to the good old days when virtual RAM would end up on spinning drives which indeed meant that everything crawled to a near halt. Modern NVMe drives actually have throughput similar to DDR2, so it's going to be far from outright terrible. Regardless, disabling the virtual memory is going to be worse than using a NVMe drive for it.  If a computer runs into a situation where it needs virtual memory things aren't going to be better when it's not available. Slower memory is better than denying it the memory it needs outright. Errors instead instead of somewhat reduced performance are the likely scenario. Added to that is that Windows and various applications depend on virtual memory and disabling it throws these applications for a loop. The ideal situation would be a system which has enough memory to deal with regular situations and has the option of virtual memory on those more rare occasions more is needed. This prevents you from needing to load up your system with memory for those 5 times you may need it.

TLDR Windows knows what it's doing and people have been panicking because they weren't familiar with a new technology. Your SSD will be fine.

[SiliconWizard]

I would also never put virtual memory on SSDs, especially if I know it's going to be used frequently! And if it's not, there is no point in enabling virtual memory IMO. Kinda case closed. On a typical desktop computer with 32GB+ RAM, you're likely never going to need it at this point unless one of your apps is leaking memory badly... Of course there is no definite answer for all. Your specific use case may require enabling virtual memory so you're certain you never lose any work, if you're using extremely heavy apps such as very high-res photo processing and such, or very heavy simulations.

As to wearing out, even though flash memory tech has improved significantly and write algorithms too, it still has a relatively low number of write cycles before wearing out, so reliability depends a lot on the write algorithms and how they can spread out data and move it around (wear levelling). A "normal workload" doesn't mean much. There is a gigantic difference between a basic user browsing the internet and writing some Word documents, and another heavier user (but still not exceptional) that will record and edit a lot of videos for instance. A difference that can be 10x or 100x more. So whatever normal means... Write algorithms that spread data out have improved drastically, but they are no miracle either. I don't know whether SSD failures these days are mostly due to flash wearing out or other causes. I'd be interested in seeing real and dependable statistics, because what we read most here (and elsewhere) is that it just doesn't happen, but not based on real figures. Another frequent cause as I know is data corruption not due to wear-out but due to a controller's bug rendering data impossible to access. Controllers have become so sophisticated that this kind of bugs are bound to happen occasionally, and it's a significant cause of failure as I've seen.

The point that "Windows knows what it's doing" - I'm not sure how to take this. I can't help finding it funny. What I have observed though is that even when you have ample RAM and are nowhere near actually needing virtual memory, if it's enabled, the swap file will be written to on a regular basis (and leading to huge fragmentation on HDDs, even again when the OS would never actually need it). That was up to Windows 7 and back when I had not disabled it yet and was still using HDDs. Maybe this has changed in more recent versions.

Of course on servers, that can be another story. Disabling virtual memory may not be an option at all. But many or most servers these days still run on HDDs and not SSDs as I reckon.

[Mr. Scram]

We've all heard all the reasons why SSDs may be written to bits and these all have been discussed to death in the years since they first emerged, but reality isn't showing them to have much merit. Even with stupidly excessive workloads a 100 times more intensive than regular ones. That really is case closed. We all panicked over nothing and it's time to face reality and move on.

Real life testing has shown that all SSDs so far can write vastly more than their specification sheets promise. Small drives have shown to be able to endure hundreds of TB and even petabytes of writes. Unless you're trying to intentionally write that much it's simply not going to happen. Virtual RAM isn't going to make a dent. As has been discussed larger drives are inherently more durable. Everything we've seen in the real world seems to indicate SSDs aren't more fragile than their spinning counterparts, which have different failure modes but fail as well.

Modern day Windows does know what it's doing with drives. It uses a page files when available an appropriate. Don't expect to understand all the optimisations made. Defragmentation on spinning drives isn't very relevant any more as Windows defragments them automatically and in the background and it has been doing that for a while. Running servers from SSDs is commonplace nowadays, although it's mostly done in places where it really helps performance. Some services advertise with running their servers from SSDs.

https://techreport.com/review/24841/introducing-the-ssd-endurance-experiment/

[mnementh]

The AORUS X570 gaming boards are currently advertising capacity to actually run dual nvme SSDs in RAID0. Obviously this is aimed at non-mission-critical gaming builds where reliability comes second to performance; however I rarely run the same boot drive(s) for more than a year or two anyways, so I'm not afraid of RAID0 on my daily driver either. Have done it oodles of times.




"Dual PCIe 4.0 SSD in RAID 0: Extreme Performance with PCIe 4.0 x4 NVMe PCIe SSDs

X570 AORUS motherboards offer the industry's best compatibility in terms of NVMe storage for users who demand high capacity and seek the best performance. AORUS' unique design can be configured in RAID for record speeds of up to 9534 MB/s (Sequential Read), making AORUS the obvious choice for the ultimate PC."

NewEgg Aorus Elite X570 MB Advert: https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813145160

Just imagining what these will run like with drives designed from the ground up for pcie4.0 makes me smile. 

mnem
*back into my cave*

[Mr. Scram]

I can't wait for the real world benchmarks showing little to no practical benefit. But sure, you get to flaunt big numbers and us engineering folks know big numbers are better even when they show no tangible benefits other than inflating your e-go.

[Simon]

Why would a PC retailer make deliberate change to default windows settings that make the machine last longer? By default windows also defragments the drive in the background.

Warranty and support contracts. Reduced longevity will inevitably land in their lap before the hardware is replaced naturally. Windows detects SSDs and turns defragmentation off, unless you're a fossil running Vista. I don't know why people here seem to insist on stories how the man is out to get them. He might be but not in the manner portrayed. 

https://www.howtogeek.com/256859/dont-waste-time-optimizing-your-ssd-windows-knows-what-its-doing/

The last installs I did of 10 I had to turn it off. It's not that anyone is out to get anyone. Microsoft never lift a finger to change anything unless they have to. Windows is full of "legacy" stuff. I am sure that the SSD will last the warranty period (1-2 years) I aim to run a machine for 5-7 years.

[David Hess]

I have not reached the write limit of any SSDs yet but have had new ones return corrupted unwritten data because of poor retention time.

[mnementh]

I can't wait for the real world benchmarks showing little to no practical benefit. But sure, you get to flaunt big numbers and us engineering folks know big numbers are better even when they show no tangible benefits other than inflating your e-go.

Yeah,no benefit except booting in 0.7^* seconds. Now multiply that by the number of times you HAVE TO reboot for one reason or another... suddenly very real. And remember, for the purpose these machines are built, you are talking some pretty big executables. _{*random utter BS figure pulled out of my arse for comedic value}
 

Why would a PC retailer make deliberate change to default windows settings that make the machine last longer? By default windows also defragments the drive in the background.

Warranty and support contracts. Reduced longevity will inevitably land in their lap before the hardware is replaced naturally. Windows detects SSDs and turns defragmentation off, unless you're a fossil running Vista. I don't know why people here seem to insist on stories how the man is out to get them. He might be but not in the manner portrayed. 

https://www.howtogeek.com/256859/dont-waste-time-optimizing-your-ssd-windows-knows-what-its-doing/

The last installs I did of 10 I had to turn it off. It's not that anyone is out to get anyone. Microsoft never lift a finger to change anything unless they have to. Windows is full of "legacy" stuff. I am sure that the SSD will last the warranty period (1-2 years) I aim to run a machine for 5-7 years.

It does it automatically if you enable AHCI for the SSD before you install, which DUH.  Also enables and optimizes trim and turns off/hides hibernate. My last 3 builds have been on SSD, did the same every time. 

Nobody runs a machine longer than me. I rarely use the same boot drive longer than 18 months, though my current daily driver build of Windows literally has been upgraded repeatedly wince Win7SP1. IFL FTW, baybee. 

mnem
meh.

[Simon]

The AORUS X570 gaming boards are currently advertising capacity to actually run dual nvme SSDs in RAID0. Obviously this is aimed at non-mission-critical gaming builds where reliability comes second to performance; however I rarely run the same boot drive(s) for more than a year or two anyways, so I'm not afraid of RAID0 on my daily driver either. Have done it oodles of times.




"Dual PCIe 4.0 SSD in RAID 0: Extreme Performance with PCIe 4.0 x4 NVMe PCIe SSDs

X570 AORUS motherboards offer the industry's best compatibility in terms of NVMe storage for users who demand high capacity and seek the best performance. AORUS' unique design can be configured in RAID for record speeds of up to 9534 MB/s (Sequential Read), making AORUS the obvious choice for the ultimate PC."

NewEgg Aorus Elite X570 MB Advert: https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813145160

Just imagining what these will run like with drives designed from the ground up for pcie4.0 makes me smile. 

mnem
*back into my cave*

I bought a wonderous intel M.2 SSD, the transfere from it to it is 400MB/s, I suppose that is a RAW 800MB/s, that in on PCIe 3.0 that is supposed to do 4GB/s for M.2......

[Mr. Scram]

Yeah,no benefit except booting in 0.7^* seconds. Now multiply that by the number of times you HAVE TO reboot for one reason or another... suddenly very real. And remember, for the purpose these machines are built, you are talking some pretty big executables. _{*random utter BS figure pulled out of my arse for comedic value}
 
It does it automatically if you enable AHCI for the SSD before you install, which DUH.  Also enables and optimizes trim and turns off/hides hibernate. My last 3 builds have been on SSD, did the same every time. 

Nobody runs a machine longer than me. I rarely use the same boot drive longer than 18 months, though my current daily driver build of Windows literally has been upgraded repeatedly wince Win7SP1. IFL FTW, baybee. 

mnem
meh.

It's indeed a complete bullshit number, which is what people have been telling you from the start. It turns out that the benefit of booting from NVMe compared to a SATA SSD is little to none. Real world benchmarks show that boot times on NVMe and SATA tend to be the same. What this means is that we have plenty of bandwidth and are encountering other bottlenecks. Add in RAID and the boot times actually go up as RAID increases system complexity and therefore POST times. The difference between PCIe 3.0 and 4.0 are obviously going to be even smaller than the difference between SATA and NVMe. Benchmarks and the real world are not the same thing. PCIe 4.0 isn't going to be some kind of watershed technology, but an incremental step up instead. It's time to let this one go.

[Mr. Scram]

The last installs I did of 10 I had to turn it off. It's not that anyone is out to get anyone. Microsoft never lift a finger to change anything unless they have to. Windows is full of "legacy" stuff. I am sure that the SSD will last the warranty period (1-2 years) I aim to run a machine for 5-7 years.

Tests show even modestly sized SSDs aren't going to be worn out in 5 or even 10 years. They wear in theory, but in practice they'll wear slower than the rest of your system.

[wraper]

I bought a wonderous intel M.2 SSD, the transfere from it to it is 400MB/s, I suppose that is a RAW 800MB/s, that in on PCIe 3.0 that is supposed to do 4GB/s for M.2......

Is it even NVMe? Sounds like you bought m.2 SATA SSD. One of NVMe SSDs I have does 3500MB/s sequential read, other which is older 2500MB/s. Your result is even worse than 99% of modern SATA SSD do. Or transfer to what?

[wraper]

Yeah,no benefit except booting in 0.7^* seconds.

Except it won't make any significant difference to Windows boot time  . Even fastest NVMe vs SATA makes very little improvement to boot time.

[beanflying]

Interesting read seems 'some' B450 and 470 MB's could be made to run PCIe4 with a Bios update. Way to 'speed up' your virtual memory 

Are you serious? the interface is always faster than the actual storage.

Sorry Sarcasm doesn't always translate well when typed 

On a modern or even relatively modern PC (not laptop) relying on virtual memory is just plain wrong. We are not living in a W95 universe and Memory is 'cheap' in relative terms. That said using M2 NVMe @3-5GB if you have to is so much better than a spinny SATA 

[Mr. Scram]

Sorry Sarcasm doesn't always translate well when typed 

On a modern or even relatively modern PC (not laptop) relying on virtual memory is just plain wrong. We are not living in a W95 universe and Memory is 'cheap' in relative terms. That said using M2 NVMe @3-5GB if you have to is so much better than a spinny SATA 

Relying on it is something you'd like to avoid, but having it as a backup is a good thing.

[beanflying]

Sorry Sarcasm doesn't always translate well when typed 

On a modern or even relatively modern PC (not laptop) relying on virtual memory is just plain wrong. We are not living in a W95 universe and Memory is 'cheap' in relative terms. That said using M2 NVMe @3-5GB if you have to is so much better than a spinny SATA 

Relying on it is something you'd like to avoid, but having it as a backup is a good thing.

For good reason I didn't add turn it off. Using it to avoid raising your memory for your daily workload remains DUMB!

[Mr. Scram]

For good reason I didn't add turn it off. Using it to avoid raising your memory for your daily workload remains DUMB!

Indeed. I was concurring, but I'm not sure how well that translated. 

[Simon]

I bought a wonderous intel M.2 SSD, the transfere from it to it is 400MB/s, I suppose that is a RAW 800MB/s, that in on PCIe 3.0 that is supposed to do 4GB/s for M.2......

Is it even NVMe? Sounds like you bought m.2 SATA SSD. One of NVMe SSDs I have does 3500MB/s sequential read, other which is older 2500MB/s. Your result is even worse than 99% of modern SATA SSD do. Or transfer to what?

I'm not at home to check but it is not SATA if I recall correctly. The socket is not very wide and it sits in between the PCIe slots using some of the lanes, I have 2 slots in fact but these days I am using external storage so just bought a 512GB just in case I used multiple operating systems but am still wating for linux to wake up and smell the 4K coffee.

[Simon]

These days when you turn virtual memoery off it will be turned back on if required or you get warnings in good time. I remember in the dark days of windows millenium, I had a seperate partition for swap at the start of my hard drive because it was faster there and very noticeably. I removed the drive and windows just would not work anymore. They had not even bothered to add the few lines of code required to create and reasign a new default swapfile on the same partition as windows........

[wraper]

I'm not at home to check but it is not SATA if I recall correctly. The socket is not very wide and it sits in between the PCIe slots using some of the lanes, I have 2 slots in fact but these days I am using external storage so just bought a 512GB just in case I used multiple operating systems but am still wating for linux to wake up and smell the 4K coffee.

m.2 slot can accept SATA or NVMe, or both. Generally m.2 slot which accepts NVMe will work with SATA as well.

[nctnico]

The last installs I did of 10 I had to turn it off. It's not that anyone is out to get anyone. Microsoft never lift a finger to change anything unless they have to. Windows is full of "legacy" stuff. I am sure that the SSD will last the warranty period (1-2 years) I aim to run a machine for 5-7 years.

Tests show even modestly sized SSDs aren't going to be worn out in 5 or even 10 years. They wear in theory, but in practice they'll wear slower than the rest of your system.

And how where those tests performed exactly? If you are doing these kind of tests in one go it is very likely you'll get way more write cycles out of an SSD than specified. HOWEVER store that SSD for a couple of months after the test and then try to read the data. Chances are the data cannot be read. Part of the number of write cycles specification is having a meaningfull data retention time.

[nctnico]

I'm not at home to check but it is not SATA if I recall correctly. The socket is not very wide and it sits in between the PCIe slots using some of the lanes, I have 2 slots in fact but these days I am using external storage so just bought a 512GB just in case I used multiple operating systems but am still wating for linux to wake up and smell the 4K coffee.

m.2 slot can accept SATA or NVMe, or both. Generally m.2 slot which accepts NVMe will work with SATA as well.

I wouldn't be so sure about that because the M.2 slot shares lines between the SATA and PCI express lanes. Be sure to check the specifications carefully because you can't determine this just by looking at the connector keying. I have two M.2 modules here which have the same keying but one is SATA only and the other is PCIe only. The same goes for a USB to M.2 converter; I had to buy two different ones  because the ones I have found so far don't seem to support both. I'm working on a design which includes an M.2 PCIe slot; the whole M.2 module slots and interoperability is a mess.

[wraper]

I wouldn't be so sure about that because the M.2 slot shares lines between the SATA and PCI express lanes.

Usually motherboards either have switch to switch between PCI-E/SATA, or CPU/chipset has lanes that can operate both as PCI-E and SATA to begin with.

I have two M.2 modules here which have the same keying but one is SATA only and the other is PCIe only.

Makes no sense. NVMe has PCI-E lane where B key is located. So it cannot have 2 keys unless it's some crippled freak. But SATA with M key only would not be compatible with SATA only m.2 slots. IMHO you confuse something.

[nctnico]

An NVME modules doesn't need to use all the PCIe lanes so an NVME M.2 module can have both B and M keys. NVME doesn't mean a module is limited to M keyed slots.
More information: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M.2

[beanflying]

Seriously Samsung Packaging and manual overload for a tiny board needing about zero skills to install It is however 'cute' 

[Mr. Scram]

Seriously Samsung Packaging and manual overload for a tiny board needing about zero skills to install It is however 'cute' 

I beg to differ in regards to the zero skill. You'd be surprised how people manage to mess that up. Of course people want to feel as if they actually bought something worthwhile and a nice box makes it more of an occasion.

[mnementh]

Yeah; I have to admit I'm getting tired of the iPackaging phenomenon. If they spent that money on the bang/buck ratio I'd much prefer it to having 16 kinds of landfill-unfriendly waste to sort & dispose of in each item. 

Welp... Prime day is winding down here... I just screwed Amazon out of 2 kids' Freetime subscriptions and got newer, faster, 4x bigger capacity kids' tablets for them to use in the bargain. I'll use the old ones for a music streamer and my wife's eBook addiction.    Okay, not "Screwing them out of" as I'm paying for them up front, but still I'm saving about $20 and getting a hardware refresh out of the deal.

Found some Ballistix DDR4-3600 CAS16 RAM at a price I can justify, and bought my wife the same Waterpik I got her 2 weeks ago, for $40 less.  I love their liberal return policy. Aside from a ASUS AC1700 router for $59.99, nothing else juicing my 'nads on Prime Day or Anti-Prime Day sales.

LOTS of combos for 450 Chipset boards with 1st/2nd Gen Ryzen; everybody's using "Prime Day" as an excuse to dump their last-gen crap and trying to get as much out of 2xxx processors as the similarly benchmarked 3xx processors, almost to the dollar. 

In the end I bought the MB I wanted at full price; I'll put the Ryzen 3xxx processors I want up on my birthday wish lists and notify those who give a damn about me surviving to see another year. If no "happy surprises", I'll buy whatever Ryzen 3xxx I can afford later. 

Now just casually noodling around for random goodies while my body catches up from staying up til 6am then up again at 11.

Cheers,

mnem
See y'all on the other side...

[beanflying]

Did the rounds of Amazon Primedays BS. Evilbay Bricks and Mortar sellers still come out in front in Oz on this build. - Not so much Prime as a steaming pile of .....

Seems I am building a wee bedroom beast as part of my 'research' but I will save that for another thread 

[tautech]

Bean sales must be good ! 

[olkipukki]

After some more looking at GPU's I reached what I think is the correct thoughts is sit on my hands for 2-3 months until Navi and the Super Nvidea triplets sort themselves out on price and stability. To that end I brought a lightly gamed Gigabyte RX580 to tide me over for $167 USD ($239 pesos). Most likely I will look at Card and Monitor upgrades together and resell the RX 580.

...or waiting until X-mas and post NewYear end-of-madness purchases and you might get something very sweet 

[beanflying]

After some more looking at GPU's I reached what I think is the correct thoughts is sit on my hands for 2-3 months until Navi and the Super Nvidea triplets sort themselves out on price and stability. To that end I brought a lightly gamed Gigabyte RX580 to tide me over for $167 USD ($239 pesos). Most likely I will look at Card and Monitor upgrades together and resell the RX 580.

...or waiting until X-mas and post NewYear end-of-madness purchases and you might get something very sweet 

Seems the AMD Partner cards will be another couple of months then give them another couple to sort out the bugs so October to Christmas might be close. Also going to be interesting to see how the other side responds for $ too The RX 580 should be here tomorrow so I can get on with the rest of the setup time permitting.

[Mr. Scram]

...or waiting until X-mas and post NewYear end-of-madness purchases and you might get something very sweet 

Just make sure you're actually getting a discount. Most of the end of year discounts aren't actually that great or were first inflated to be discounted after.

[mnementh]

https://smile.amazon.com/Ryzen-Gaming-Motherboard-Prime-B450-Plus/dp/B07FKT5CTH


$76 for the next 11 hours... or til sold out. 95% of stock remaining. Seems a good deal since Honey sez it's regularly $138 board, based on prices from Amazon. OTOH, Amazon sez regular price is $89. 

Also ASUS TUF X470-Plus $99 next 6.5 hours: https://smile.amazon.com/TUF-X470-Plus-Gaming-Ryzen-Motherboard/dp/B07C5YR3KS/

mnem
 

[beanflying]

It's alive even if not on  the final processor due to a delayed GPU  I got a cracker deal on a 2400G (currently installed) which is heading for a second system for the bedroom instead of the current puny Intel Atom box.

Bios upgrade in progress then trying to sort out Windoze 1903 era Media Creation Tool sorted out  Error 0x80042405 – 0xA001B error is seriously uncool and turn number three in progress after a complete reformat of the thumbdrive 

[mnementh]

I blame the dee-dee-dee-Dell keyboard. 

mnem
*toddling off to ded*

[beanflying]

Speaking of FAT Code seems that maybe now 16Gb isn't enough space for an install post 1903 

On download number five on a 32Gb drive with a clean reformat we have a winner on a drive Microsnot 

[SiliconWizard]

 

[mnementh]

I'll admit one thing about the Prime Day/ANTI-PRIME DAY phenomenon... if you're looking to "refresh" a budget last-gen gaming rig, you can get pretty good on the cheap. Name-brand B450 gaming motherboards, $60-70. 16GB DDR4-2400/3000 $45-70. "Slower" (note quotes, please ) 512GB nvme drives $60-80, and they're giving away the 1TB Intel 660 drives. Right now several Crucial combos; 500GB P1 nvme SSD and DDR4-3000/DDR4-3200 ram for $92.

Ryzen 2400G for $99, 2600 for $119. Even saw a Ryzen 3 for $47.  Think I'd still rather have a Ryzen 3600 at $199 than the 2700 at $149, though.   

I'm half tempted to build a second rig out of just the sloppy seconds on NewEgg... 

mnem
*tzzzt*

[mnementh]

Speaking of FAT Code seems that maybe now 16Gb isn't enough space for an install post 1903 

On download number five on a 32Gb drive with a clean reformat we have a winner on a drive Microsnot 

It's because you're in OZ. All your infrastructure is upside-down, so when the data gets to your end of the submarine fiber, your routers have to flip all the bits with respect to the rest of the world. And everybody knows zeros are fatter than ones. 

mnem
*agitating-ily*

[beanflying]

I'll admit one thing about the Prime Day/ANTI-PRIME DAY phenomenon... if you're looking to "refresh" a budget last-gen gaming rig, you can get pretty good on the cheap. Name-brand B450 gaming motherboards, $60-70. 16GB DDR4-2400/3000 $45-70. "Slower" (note quotes, please ) 512GB nvme drives $60-80, and they're giving away the 1TB Intel 660 drives. Right now several Crucial combos; 500GB P1 nvme SSD and DDR4-3000/DDR4-3200 ram for $92.

Ryzen 2400G for $99, 2600 for $119. Even saw a Ryzen 3 for $47.  Think I'd still rather have a Ryzen 3600 at $199 than the 2700 at $149, though.   

I'm half tempted to build a second rig out of just the sloppy seconds on NewEgg... 

mnem
*tzzzt*

Sloppy seconds thread is here  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/general-computing/$3-500-usd-bang-for-your-buck-systems-new-vs-old-for-the-workbench-or-home/msg2554083/#msg2554083

Won the battle with BIOS and Windoze fitting the M/Board in the Case over a coffee 

[beanflying]

Not the intended Processor but 'tomorrow' allegedly I will be getting the delivery of the RX580 so I can finish off the build. Meanwhile giving the 2400G a run and it is far from shabby as an all rounder Edit Blows my old I3 out of the water on Fusion 360 just so much faster.

The cable management on the H500 was a doddle to get looking decent. Tie points, space to hold a party in and covers to hide a few ugly bits.

Subtle RGB could grow on me yet 

[mnementh]

THE SLEEVENING has begun!!!  

mnem
welcome to the dork side. 

[mnementh]

Subtle RGB could grow on me yet

Agreed. I set mine up similarly; all solid medium blue, no blinking or unicorn blarff. Hardly even notice the thing; blue has gone so far beyond passe' it's come around again to understated.

mnem
*tzzzzt*

[beanflying]

WooHoo Graphics Card arrived finally from the far North of the country and 3000+km of Snail Mail.

Before swapping out the Processor and adding in the Card I ran a quick benchmark test for what they are worth. SiSoft Sandra Light V4 (current)

Old I3 8300 HP banger 0.39kPT - yes it is that bad.
New Box Ryzen 5 2400G (no GPU) 2.31kPt
New Box Ryzen 5 2400G with RX580 3.04kPt
New Box Ryzen 7 3700X with RX580 4.87kPt

All tested with stock bios and no overclocking apart from what Ryzen does itself.

More RGB Reduction coming up the CPU outer ring colour changing has to go as does some of the intensity.

[Black Phoenix]

Beautiful cable management.

[Halcyon]

It's because you're in OZ. All your infrastructure is upside-down, so when the data gets to your end of the submarine fiber, your routers have to flip all the bits with respect to the rest of the world. And everybody knows zeros are fatter than ones. 

Nothing wrong with big-endian. We also have big-endian flushing toilets. ;-)

[mnementh]

↑

   

mnem
*back out into the Tejas suck*

[Black Phoenix]

WooHoo Graphics Card arrived finally from the far North of the country and 3000+km of Snail Mail.

Before swapping out the Processor and adding in the Card I ran a quick benchmark test for what they are worth. SiSoft Sandra Light V4 (current)

Old I3 8300 HP banger 0.39kPT - yes it is that bad.
New Box Ryzen 5 2400G (no GPU) 2.31kPt
New Box Ryzen 5 2400G with RX580 3.04kPt
New Box Ryzen 7 3700X with RX580 4.87kPt

All tested with stock bios and no overclocking apart from what Ryzen does itself.

More RGB Reduction coming up the CPU outer ring colour changing has to go as does some of the intensity.

By the way mate, as a information in case you wanna check if the CPU is properly boosting.

[beanflying]

Thanks but I am running with a B450 on the latest release BIOS. Seems there was some issues with only some of the 570 boards which seems more like typical first adopter issues and I think there has now been BIOS upgrades for most of them already. I haven't tried anything with over clocking or boosting anything so far on mine and seriously don't see the need to it.

Biggest face palm so far is 120Mb of software Gigabyte takes to run it's RGB software  Seriously lazy coding to the max and auto loaded on startup.

Why I am not bothering with over clocking and why not to buy the 3800X

[mnementh]

I have no problem with OCing... Especially in the "unofficially-endorsed endorsed" manner AMD does; it's just free horsepower. A mild OC on my CPU and GPU brought me up 20 percentile points on a $47 PileDriver bought 6 months ago.    https://www.userbenchmark.com/UserRun/18354061

And Now For Something Completely... ON-TOPIC!!!

Still pooling my components; piece-by-piece as I have funds and deals are found.

Shopping list so far:

$199.99 - MFR LIST PRICE - GIGABYTE X570 AORUS ELITE MB https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813145160
$104.48 - Amazon Prime Day Deal - Crucial Ballistix Elite 3600 MHz DDR4 DRAM Desktop Gaming Memory Kit 16GB (8GBx2) CL16 https://www.crucial.com/usa/en/ble2k8g4d36beeak
$140.00 * ebay USED/LNIB/COMPLETE - XFX Radeon RX 580 GTS XXX Edition 8GB GDDR5 Graphics Card http://www.xfxforce.com/en-us/products/amd-radeon-rx-500-series/rx-580-gts-8gb-dd-rx-580p8dfd6
$  60.00 * Amazon - upHere Technology AIO Liquid CPU Cooler240mm /Dual Adjustable PWM Fan & Blue LED https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07DJ63S3Y?th=1
$  37.00 - NewEgg "Anti-Prime Day" Deal - DEEPCOOL MATREXX 55 ADD-RGB ATX Mid-Tower Case https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16811853065
$  33.00 - Random Amazon Closeout - Excelvan 1KW Cryptomining PSU (NLA) See my teardown here.

$574.47 - Total so far. * Items to be recycled from current build per my "build it in stages to minimize the wallet pain and still get what you want" process. 

Waiting til after upcoming birthday for the next two big expenditures; CPU & SSD.

Cheers,

mnem
 

[beanflying]

Found a possible use case for the 3.5" Drive mounting  One of my W10 2/32Gb Intel Atoms heading for the insides of my Laser cutter with a new Smoothieware Controller card instead of an old Windoze 7 Tablet.

Most likely this will now get removed and should help the airflow a little more over the GPU and board from the lower fan. I was going to install what would become a spare 500Gb drive in it but due to rebates and a very good deal I am adding a 1TB NVMe to the 500GB already on board (<$170 USD landed for a Samsung EVO Plus) coupled with my 4TB NAS covered for the next 5+ years of storage.

[mnementh]

I'm still in the fondling stage.  

mnem
Don't judge me!!!

[mnementh]

IT'S IN THERE!!!

Unicorn Blarff Mode enabled JUST for bean.

mnem

[beanflying]

I should have switched mine from calming blue last night to bright red while forum posting 

RTX 2080 Super was released today -    yawn was the response on Youtube.

The more I see of the 5700 and 5700XT the more likely my Box value will continue to rise a little  Take out the RX580 add one of these and the extra 1TB Samsung and $1.3-1.4k still won't be adding the card until later this year to iron out some of the first adopters bugs. That said touch wood the B450 and 3700X are running great given the Bios upgrades needed.

[mnementh]

Found a possible use case for the 3.5" Drive mounting  (Attachment Link)

Mine HAD TO GO.

mnem
But hey, now I DO have enough room to change my mind...

[mnementh]

I should have switched mine from calming blue last night to bright red while forum posting 

RTX 2080 Super was released today -    yawn was the response on Youtube.

The more I see of the 5700 and 5700XT the more likely my Box value will continue to rise a little  Take out the RX580 add one of these and the extra 1TB Samsung and $1.3-1.4k still won't be adding the card until later this year to iron out some of the first adopters bugs. That said touch wood the B450 and 3700X are running great given the Bios upgrades needed.

https://www.pcgamesn.com/amd/baited-nvidia-faking-rx-5700-xt-pricing-e3

Yeah, I think AMD caught NVIDIA with their pants down too. The "Super" is more about repositioning their own old hardware tiers than it is about actually introducing anything new.

I'm still really happy with my RX580 purchase FOR NOW; I know that once I actually start playing in 2K I'll need more, but my sims are all native 1080P still so...  Of course, when I get back into VR that'll all be blown out of the water, so... 

Too bad you're halfway round the world. Would be nice to get together and try a RX580 CF setup without having to spend the money. 

mnem
*currently having an unnatural relationship with this cup of coffee*

[mnementh]

This came up in my feed after I listened to that podcast... 70 inch 8K gaming at 20-ish FPS. 

Linus proves two things: SLI/CF is STILL a PITA thanks to arbitrary driver & config limitations, and that HD ADAPTERS SUCK. You're still better off with the CORRECT DP-HDMI CABLES from a reputable supplier, not even EXPENSIVE boutique cables and schizz, than a fistful of expensive active adapters. 

mnem
"You have GOT to be fucking kidding me..."

[mnementh]

Please forgive the cross-post; I felt it was very appropriate here as well.

Effing Amazon, man...



So I stayed up late tinkering on my new  PC case; getting some of the foundation demolition work done and sizing it up for the next stage of assembly after installing the 1KW PSU. At 2AM, I order a 5-pack of award-winning name-brand Arctic 120mm PWM fans, since I decided I'm at most going to have some old-school RGB "under-lighting" but otherwise totally "Dark Star" the whole build. And my own personal requirement for the last couple decades, a software-independent discrete thermometer to attach directly to the CPU's lid.

They delivered them at 7PM. Total cost? $36; less than the fans alone at NewEgg, plus $4.99 3-6 day shipping like they're doing me some damned favor. 

Effing Amazon, man.

mnem
*couch-tuber time widda kidzz*

[sokoloff]

My own personal requirement for the last couple decades, a software-independent discrete thermometer to attach directly to the CPU's lid
.

This seems like an interesting idea. How do you install this without messing up the interface between the CPU and the CPU heatsink?

[mnementh]

      

No extraordinary measures. Just the thermistor laid against the metal edge of the lid like so with a blob of thermal grease. The ones like this: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00E3A2SS0/ with the small epoxy-blob sensor fit without modification; the faint tension of the wire combined with gravity keep it in place.

Functionally, the thermo can read as much as 5-8° cooler than core temps; this is due to thermal saturation response time and the fact of measuring from the edge. Still, generally an accurate "Average temp" if you add 5° in your head.

I use it as an independent "reality check" against software monitors that are sometimes completely out to lunch and to ensure I don't ever have a "locked-up processor meltdown" scenario again. Oh, and because of AMD's moronic "Temp Offset vs Threshold" reporting methods. 

Yeah, yeah... I know these worries are all supposed to be long-dead relics of the past. I figure $7-ish is cheap peace of mind; plus I like the look.

mnem
"I love the smell of angry pixies in the morning... Smells like VICTORY!!!"

[mnementh]

My wife just informed me that I have a shiny new Ryzen 3700X inbound to go with my  new MB. She also informed me that I should not expect anything else for my birthday. 

mnem
*totes down widdat*

[beanflying]

You are lucky she didn't include Christmas too  Several new BIOS updates for most of the 570 boards too if you were not following.

The remaining question is what special favours you have to do to get an SSD to complete the build

[mnementh]

We'll see what shakes out after I pay the *gulp* July in Hottern'ell, TX electric bill. I may be motivated to sell my old hoopty motorcycle sooner rather than later. 

I figure by the time I'm ready to actually fire it up (the 3700X, not the motorbike), they'll have MOST of the buggitys fixed. I'll need to run it a few times on the old 860 SSD just to get the build logged with MS authentication servers before I do a fresh install on a 970Plus... or two.  World will not come to an end if the nvmes don't happen til after the move. Maybe by then proper ground-up design PCIE 4.0 SSDs will be affordable; from what I've read, everything being sold as PCIE4.0 SSDs right now are really modded PCIE3.0/nvme designs. 

This is definitely 100% a back-burner project right now; I just laid the board in there tonight for the first time to start planning my cable layout. I'm getting the cars to pass inspection, then as soon as I'm done with that I need to pull my taxes together and whip them out this coming week.

mnem
moo.

[mnementh]

   

The Sleevening has begun!!! 

mnem
You probably shouldn't look.

[mnementh]

That sleevening looks like ass. And it gets in the way of power cables that have to go over it... time to redo it all. 

mnem
Stay tuned for the next installment of misery...

[beanflying]

Did I mention how nice the cable management options in the Coolermaster Case was 

Time to sniff some fumes......

[mnementh]

The cable management options in both my cases are perfectly fine; it's not like either of them or your Coolermaster have a hide-em shield like the high-er end NZXT & Thermaltake offerings.

The problem is that I'm one of those psycho arseholes who cares what the back side and the basement look like too...     ...aaaand I fuckin' deserve what I get. 

In other News...

I'm back up on my old hardware now... I've stripped out my RX580, 240mm AIO, PWM cooling fans & Samsung 860 SSD for the new build & have reverted to all my old build hardware from before I did the case migration.

I'm STILL vacillating back & forth between the two cases... I like different aspects of both. 

mnem
I have this terrible feeling that once we move into the new place I'm going to wind up with this PC in my bedroom and the new build in my "dwagon cave" for game-time widda kiddz, wherever that winds up. 

[mnementh]

Progress. 

mnem
*Putter... putter... tinker-putter...*

[wraper]

Is this thread an echo chamber? Just asking.

[beanflying]

And the award for the weakest 'attempted' Trolling Post for the day goes too ..... 

[olkipukki]

Meanwhile, I pulled a trigger to get a try new Ryzen while patiently  waiting new AMD stuff in Fall and before to make a final step to AMD world. 

Let's call this thread inspired me. 

3600X should arrive soon.
In worst case, I can sell it in a minimum cost or keep as is to play a Windows minesweeper.   

If eveything goes according to a plan, upgrade to 3950X is really good backup and 2nd side machine.

Wish me luck.

[mnementh]

Luck!

In Other News...

...my shiny new 3700X is right now in my hot little hands. SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!

mnem

[beanflying]

Meanwhile, I pulled a trigger to get a try new Ryzen while patiently  waiting new AMD stuff in Fall and before to make a final step to AMD world. 

Let's call this thread inspired me. 

3600X should arrive soon.
In worst case, I can sell it in a minimum cost or keep as is to play a Windows minesweeper.   

If eveything goes according to a plan, upgrade to 3950X is really good backup and 2nd side machine.

Wish me luck.

Luck  Just watch out for the BIOS upgrade path depending on your board. My B450 Gigabyte now done is stable and was coping well with the stock Ryzen Overclocking (PBO) and hitting 4.37GHz but it wasn't the easiest to get the BIOS sorted.

[mnementh]

(Attachment Link)    THE BITCH LIVES.
    While researching possible compatibility issues with my particular combination of CPU/RAM/MB (Even though my exact RAM is listed on the MB's QVL), I was led back to the MB support page where I discovered a new BIOS released JUST YESTERDAY. In desperation, I Q-FLASHED it again... and it booted to BIOS. The aggravating part is it still refuses to boot with XMP enabled; so RAM just operates at slowest JEDEC speed of 2667.  I suspect the main difference is just that prior BIOS versions defaulted to XMP ENABLED, while this version doesn't. 

I think I'm going to accept this small victory and go to bed.

mnem
Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

So... after researching the issue, it appears the main problem is that those XMP profiles are based on a Intel thing, and they haven't got the equivalent XMP profiling for the Zen2 CPUs done yet in the BIOS so the memory timing will sync like it does out of the box with Intel builds.  So, in short... my RAM is new enough and high-performance enough that the 3700X can't keep up stock out of the box; I have to manually OC it to match the RAM. Which is really hard to do when the effing thing won't even POST because they left XMP on as a default.

Moving forward...

After having a chance to sleep on it... and knowing how I tend to obsess (*looks at self indignantly* "MOI?!?") over things... I've realized that even though I have the problem licked (I KNEW it was something STUPID) with this MB, after doing the "deep dive" into the differences between the Aorus Elite and the Aorus Pro I still feel like I'm "settling" with the Aorus Elite MB.   

I'm going to go get the Pro now just so it will stop niggling at me.   

mnem

"Get in the car son; Time for a ROAD TRIP!!!"

[olkipukki]

Thank you Guys

Just watch out for the BIOS upgrade path depending on your board. My B450 Gigabyte now done is stable and was coping well with the stock Ryzen Overclocking (PBO) and hitting 4.37GHz but it wasn't the easiest to get the BIOS sorted.

I am trying to eliminate this from day 1.

Hope that a premium paid for MB is not just for 'labour' to get rid of LEDs and other fancy stuff  , for effort to make this board to be solid and reliable.

[Black Phoenix]

Thank you Guys

Just watch out for the BIOS upgrade path depending on your board. My B450 Gigabyte now done is stable and was coping well with the stock Ryzen Overclocking (PBO) and hitting 4.37GHz but it wasn't the easiest to get the BIOS sorted.

I am trying to eliminate this from day 1.

Hope that a premium paid for MB is not just for 'labour' to get rid of LEDs and other fancy stuff  , for effort to make this board to be solid and reliable.

I've been eyeballing that motherboard over and over again, since it was announced. What it's the verdict of it?

[olkipukki]

I've been eyeballing that motherboard over and over again, since it was announced. What it's the verdict of it?

Not yet received all components to complete the build.

The first impression is very solid and well done.
Personally, I do not like a fan to be the board, guess there is no escape for X570 chip

[beanflying]

Apart from the lack of PCIe4 if you can get a B450 or 470 there is no real difference in speed and even some have made the 300 series work but I wouldn't be going back that old. There is a downside with the older boards currently being sold they don't support the new generation until you get the BIOS upgraded but it seems based on mnementh's experience the 500 series still has some quirks too.

Happy with the performance of my 450 with the 3700X now I have the Bios upgraded.

[Black Phoenix]

I've been eyeballing that motherboard over and over again, since it was announced. What it's the verdict of it?

Not yet received all components to complete the build.

The first impression is very solid and well done.
Personally, I do not like a fan to be the board, guess there is no escape for X570 chip

Well with that big heatsink they could have gone the route of the Gigabyte X570 Aorus Extreme:



Look that heatpipe close to the memory slots.

[olkipukki]

Well with that big heatsink they could have gone the route of the Gigabyte X570 Aorus Extreme:

In this case, the form factory is E-ATX. Usually, ASUS using CEB/EATX format for workstation grade boards.

They deliberately made it (as well as a new Z390) in ATX.

[Black Phoenix]

It's still not impossible to put a totally passive cooler anyway.

[mnementh]

Aorus X570 Build: A Timeline

3 Days Ago: Sunday

The new MB is in the box and cables made up; it POSTs and boots to BIOS. BUT... The damn USB ports are now all flaky as hell; mouse freezes up and keyboard acting like there’s a key pressed and held most of he time.    This after it performed flawlessly on the bench for more than an hour while I puttered around setting up the fans and CPU pump and stuff.    It took half an hour of unplugging/replugging mouse/KB to complete a BIOS update... I can’t even get into the “Tweak” submenu to tune the OC.    Done all the usual troubleshooting; new mouse/KB, different PSU...

I’m on the road doing family stuff; when we get home I’ll  strip it down to RAM & CPU... again.

mnem
   Okay... I think I’ve bled enough for this bleeding edge.

3 Days Ago: Later Sunday



"Aorus X570 Pro WiFi MB latest BIOS; problems due to poor documentation. Posting this to save anybody else experiencing this behavior the grief of figuring it out by themselves the hard way. Manual does not clearly state this, but ALL management of the nvme drives on the Aorus X570 MBs like this one is done through the nvme RAID Management Console. This means that even if you have only one nvme drive, you will STILL need to "Enable nvme RAID Mode" (something that is pretty explicitly counter-intuitive) in the  SATA Config submenu to enable nvme drive management AT ALL.

TL/DR version: Before you install your nvme drive(s), turn ON "nvme RAID  MODE" in SATA Configuration submenu, EVEN IF INSTALLING ONLY A SINGLE DRIVE. BIOS will act flaky like this until it scans the nvne drives and knows what to do with them; getting to that point with the BIOS behaving like this is an exercise in frustration."

It was the effing nvme/M.2 drives. Either slot occupied makes it do this.  Oklay... must be some conflict on the PCIE bus.     I wonder what stupid setting they left on by default that I missed the first time I read TFM.

mnem
Nice pants.

3 Days Ago: Later LATER Sunday

It appears the BIOS on these boards places ALL nvme management under the NVME RAID Management console. You can manage SATA drives from the regular settings menu; but to manage even a SINGLE nvme drive you have to ENABLE the nvme RAID Controller and force it to rescan the physical drives. Until you do, it continues to be this kind of totally flaky whenever there's a nvme drive attached (even though it auto-detects the damned things and shows them right on the dashboard), and of COURSE the nvme RAID Controller is turned OFF by default. 

I only found this out by accident while noodling around in the BIOS; NONE of this "nvme RAID Controller" config is outlined in TFM; it's not even MENTIONED.  I think this manual is primarily drafted from the X470 manual with very little modification. The documentation posted online at the product page outlines configuring nvme drives in RAID; however, nowhere do they explain that before you install your nvme drive(s), you need to turn ON "nvme RAID  MODE" in SATA Configuration submenu, EVEN IF INSTALLING ONLY A SINGLE DRIVE.

BIOS will act flaky as seen above until it scans the nvne drives and knows what to do with them; getting to that point with the BIOS behaving like this is an exercise in frustration.

mnem
*trailblazing* 

Yesterday: (4AM Monday Morning)



Bitch Lives.

mnem
I'm goin' to bed.

 New Aorus Pro WiFi MB installed and custom-cabled. Got my (3 weeks) "old" build of Win10 on my Samsung 860 SATA SSD to boot relatively painlessly. Using it for basic diag while I get things tweaked and for single-nvme-drive baseline benchmarking before I do a fresh RAID 0 install of Windoze for comparison.

Yesterday Afternoon:

Had to tear my 1KW+ ( Yes REALLY!!!) PSU down to the PCB because the fan in it sounds like a effing jet engine (unlike the one in my first unit) all the effing time.   

Turns out they bypassed the thermal-control loop and were running the fan WOT/100% Duty Cycle. Spent the afternoon tearing both of them apart to compare and retrofit missing parts so the 140mm fan has nice, ear-friendly thermal control like my first one.    And finishing up custom cabling.

Today:

Just finished posting video in hopes of saving some other poor sod the same misery I just beat my head against for two days. I sold myself on upgrading to the next level up, a $270 board, AFTER figuring out how to get it to boot... because of course I did.    But I had a good road trip with my son, and I am now able to "stop wishing I hadn't cheaped out."

While on my road trip widda boy, I also sold myself on a pair of the cheapest PHISON E12 based 3.0x4 NVMe 512GB nvme drives I could find, just to see if Giga's nvme RAID claims held any water on drives ordinary mortals might buy. Also because I was able to buy steal them for $49.99 ea. 

 Settling in for an afternoon reading up on SSD benchmarking and AMD Infinity Fabric vs CPU OC-ing.

mnem
*currently having a sordid and unnatural relationship with this cup of coffee*

[mnementh]

I've completed my Tune & benchmarks; the full article is up here.   I ramble a bit & lots of pics, so I'm just gonna post the chart & synopsis here.

The TL/DR: Some small file read performance and med-small file write performance and longer RAID Boot times compared to single-channel connected. Otherwise, these $59 SSDs produced very comparable numbers to premium PCIe3.0 drives costing 2x as much, and in RAID, comparable to (In some cases, far exceeding) PCIe4.0 drives costing 5x as much. Definitely a worthwhile experiment.

mnem
The Three Laws of Thermodynamics:
1. You can't win.
2. You can't break even.
3. You can't even get out of the game.

[ChunkyPastaSauce]

I picked up two of those inland NVME drives 1TB, on sight, for $94 each about a month ago due to price. They are fast, way faster than stated on the package. The 1TB version has endurance rating of 1.6 petabytes...

There are a bunch of these under other brands (e12 based), identical pcb under sticker/heatsink based on same phison ref design and possibly just rebrands.... identical to the point that the firmware is compatible across vendors, which makes it so you can update the inland drives (or any other). The inland versions are not over-provisioned so you have full storage (some of the others using ref design are over provisioned, which currently cant be changed. Benchmarks don't show performance difference). Inland has 3 year warranty vs 5 year from others, but wear rating same and same parts. Inland is the lowest cost one I know of.

To get best performance / life out of them, you have to low level format the NVME namespace to change the sector size from 512b to 4kb, these support 4k but shipped with 512 for compatibility. It is a NVME specific command, currently no way I know of to pass it using windows drivers (I used linux live CD). See https://filers.blogspot.com/2018/12/how-to-format-nvme-drive.html

Also, I modded intel nvme enterprise drivers meant for intel nvme drives to load with the inland nvme..just to see what would happen... actually boots. I don't know of anyone else doing this (first?) so I don't know if it's really data-safe yet, but I have been using for few weeks now with these drives and 100% functions without issue as far as I can tell. In Anvil benchmark, it scores 20% higher overall and half the latency for some reads vs the microsoft nvme driver.

[Black Phoenix]

For anyone interested:

[beanflying]

For anyone interested:

SNAP https://www.eevblog.com/forum/general-computing/ryzen-memory-overclocking-step-by-step/msg2608254/#msg2608254

I thought it was worth a separate thread 

[Black Phoenix]

Yep... It deserves, my bad!

[beanflying]

Not Bad Rather than lose it in this ramble it is fairly specific post build I guess.

For others following later this one popped up today $1040 USD Ryzen 3600 16Gb build with an RX5700  build. Fairly much a Gamer spec with that card in it but add a bit of extra cheap storage and it would do the workhorse thing well too.

[Black Phoenix]

Unfortunately US prices never get the same application in the other side of the pond...

Specially in Australia were things are outrageous stealing the money out of the wallet.

In Europe, same parts will add around 150 to 200 euros more to the final price, and if you find compatibles you still can't get lower that 100 euros more.

[beanflying]

Yep Oz generally sux. It was still surprising when buying for my build it was still cheapest to buy from Bricks and Mortar stores using evilbay plus discounts compared to Online with the same stores and Amazon  is a stinker locally.

If I wanted to walk up to a counter and buy a CPU for example it would be a 4 hour drive in my case. Prebuilt and over priced or under performing is 20 minutes away but that just wasn't an option I would consider. The last good guy doing builds locally has moved onto making $ elsewhere with Computers.

USD no tax is just a sensible way to compare pricing around the world.

3700 and 3700XT cards sound like they are due in the next month so more drooling and weaiting for another few months until the bugs are worked out.

[beanflying]

Before I have a play with getting a little more out of the beasty with tinkering I downloaded a few other benchmarks for a pre and post number to see if the work is worth the bother.

Sisoft numbers back in the thread. Seems to be more or less not used by reviewers but I have used it on and off since XP days.

Cinebench 20 ran at 4841 all core and 509 single core.

Heaven was over 100FPS @ 1080P, High got 2837 and ultra was 2529.

Timespy as a Gamer style Benchmark showed up the lack of high end GPU but  care factor isn't high CPU 9476, GPU 4298 ans overall 4671. The first of the 5700 and 5700xt partner cards hit the market yesterday 

PC and 3D mark are below and if the numbers are right it kicks the butt of a bunch of other tested boxes for a workhorse.

[beanflying]

With the Memory thing on this box happy and resulting in a stable gain I started looking what was possible on the CPU front. The answer seems inconclusive over the Ryzen Master boosting.  During the bench marking runs I have been doing my 3700X has been topping 4.3GHz on most cores and the following video is worth a watch and makes me tend to just want to leave it alone and in the hands of AMD's software.



Gigabytes 5700XT OC version looks great too, still waiting on real world testing. $420USD is the rumored pricing.



And if your German is any good ASUS's 3 fan offering over 2GHz on boost 

https://www.computerbase.de/2019-08/asus-radeon-rx-5700-xt-strix-test/

[mnementh]

Yeah, that's been my experience as well. I COULD theoretically squeeze a tiny bit more out of it manually tuning the RAM timing... but in practice the best I've pulled out of mine has been letting AMD OC both CPU & RAM.

Speaking of which... guess it's going to be a while before I can buy my 2nd 16GB kit of RAM at a reasonable price... https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/ballistix-dram-crushes-world-ddr4-overclocking-record-at-5726mt-s.255597/

If I'd known about that that when I bought mine, I'd have gotten 2 kits while it was $104.  I just bought it because A) Price:Spec (DDR4-3600/CAS16) was excellent and 2) Ballistix, same brand I ran on my last build for almost 10 years.

mnem
"Hindsight is always 20/20." ~grand-dad

[beanflying]

You may not get much of a benefit with your 3600 (think that's what you got?) but on the CL16 3200 it was worth the effort when teamed with the 3700X. The stock tweaks Ryzen Master allows or does automatically for memory isn't much.

Plenty of stock Factory AMD 5700XT's going out cheap locally from about $365 USD plus tax with the releasing of the partner cards. Still waiting impatiently for the partner ones to sort out any bugs on them for something I really really don't 'need' but will likely buy regardless

[Black Phoenix]

You may not get much of a benefit with your 3600 (think that's what you got?) but on the CL16 3200 it was worth the effort when teamed with the 3700X. The stock tweaks Ryzen Master allows or does automatically for memory isn't much.

Plenty of stock Factory AMD 5700XT's going out cheap locally from about $365 USD plus tax with the releasing of the partner cards. Still waiting impatiently for the partner ones to sort out any bugs on them for something I really really don't 'need' but will likely buy regardless

Yes they are cheaper but remember that the stock cooler will be always more toasty and loud that the non reference cards. That's mainly the reason why there are a lot of Factory ones being sold in the second hand market now that the aftermarket, well engineered coolers are available.

Even by AMD saying that the temperatures are OK, sorry but no,  even the normal usage temperatures are too high for my own taste.

[Rant ON]

For me anything that touches the 70sC are too hot for my taste. I know bla bla bla, it's a lot lower that the max temperature that is 115C with auto shutdown but STILL ITS TOO DAMN HIGH!

I even hate the temperatures of my own laptop under full tilt and can't do anything against it, and they aren't that high, in the 80s. Clean the intake and exhaust holes, disassembly of the cooler with change in thermal interface plus new thermal pads, clean of the fan blades and this shit even after that doesn't got that lower, just 5C that it's still too damn high for me.

The market tendency of slim and quiet really is a FUD. Yes is nice to have a slim, beautiful and quiet PC/Laptop, but I prefer something functional, big, well engineered, with no compromises. And when I say no compromises is good cooling system. If it makes the laptop thicker like 1CM or 2CM, so be it, do it. If it makes it larger and heavier, so be it, do it. Instead of using small, high RPM centrifugal fans, use bigger slower ones, and with optimise hot and cold air paths. Spend money on the engineering, instead of a one solution fits all!

Well but I will stop...
[Rant OFF]

[mnementh]

Yeah, keeping the GPU cool is yet ANOTHER reason to go liquid-cooled with a decent 240mm AIO/radiator in the roof. Internal case temp dropped by about 20°C compared to my FX-8350 air-cooled, plus turns the entire box into a positive-pressure straight-thru wind tunnel. That makes high-wattage, air-cooled GPUs like my factory OC'd RX-580 MUCH happier. I expect it will be an absolute necessity with the new crop of GPUs just coming out.

You may not get much of a benefit with your 3600 (think that's what you got?) but on the CL16 3200 it was worth the effort when teamed with the 3700X. The stock tweaks Ryzen Master allows or does automatically for memory isn't much.

Plenty of stock Factory AMD 5700XT's going out cheap locally from about $365 USD plus tax with the releasing of the partner cards. Still waiting impatiently for the partner ones to sort out any bugs on them for something I really really don't 'need' but will likely buy regardless

The benefit for me is right there in the chart.    3800MHz 16-18-18 with everything Auto-OC. fCLK right at the magical 1800MHz-ish figure and 67.4ns latency.  For $104/16GB definitely a good deal; for current $150-ish/16GB, different story altogether.   

mnem
*back out into the suck*

[Black Phoenix]

Yeah, keeping the GPU cool is yet ANOTHER reason to go liquid-cooled with a decent 240mm AIO/radiator in the roof. Internal case temp dropped by about 20°C compared to my FX-8350 air-cooled, plus turns the entire box into a positive-pressure straight-thru wind tunnel. That makes high-wattage, air-cooled GPUs like my factory OC'd RX-580 MUCH happier. I expect it will be an absolute necessity with the new crop of GPUs just coming out.

mnementh don't get me wrong, as things looked like some weeks ago. I'm not against watercooling, mind it. I perfectly agree that water as a heat transfer medium is better than air and it is the future.

What I'm against is low quality bad made AIO that have a time to live before they get empty or damaged by low quality materials or pump failures and that don't allow you to change the liquid or change the part with the problem. And in that I include most of the AIO being sold in the market. What I'm against is the use of bad quality watercooling in expensive equipment that are mission critical. Things that can't stop and are expensive to replace in case of failure.

Even Custom watercooling, were you bought your brand of radiators, pumps, fittings, blocks, and tube not all brands are equal (Thermaltake is normally regarded as one of the lowest, with EKWB one of the best ones).

That's why I say that I still prefer air cooling for mission critical machines. That until we have AIOs with the reliability of an Air Cooler, where you change a fan, dust if off and change the thermal interface and forget.

[mnementh]

Yeah, I used to say the same about motorcycles... until I tried to do fuel-injection on an air-cooled Yamaha. The short version is it's nearly impossible to program a fuel-air table that can mix properly for the entire temp range of an air-cooled engine and still provide  "accelerator pump" instant-enrichment AND proper timing advance/retard as needed. You'll either be always running rich, or too advanced for the temp, or you'll dump so much fuel it pops back through the carbs and starts fires.     Go liquid-cooled with proper thermal regulation, and bam... perfect metering 98% of the time, plus burns clean AND about 30% more power per CC. AND supercharging ceases to be a pipe-dream and becomes street-driveable.

The point being... things evolve. Lets face it; the last 30 years have been this stage:      Right now we're at about this stage:      

You're looking at AIOs the wrong way.... you're looking at them the same way we USED TO look at the radiator in that T-bucket: a hand-crafted piece of equipment meant to last decades. Nowadays, radiators are a commodity product with a 5-12 year design life. But get this; all BS and "lost art" arguments set aside, today's automotive radiators, plastic tanks, limited lifespan and all... are cm³ for cm³ twice as effective at carrying away heat almost across the board.

AND they manage something those old brass & copper monsters never did: to not become an environmental disaster. No lead solder, and because of the way aluminum doesn't interact with common coolants used in ICEs, they almost never gel up and clog full of ethylene sludge that pollutes everything with a dozen carcinogens when they get melted down. AND because of this, flushing them before melting down the cores is now part of the recycling process; as is reclaimed coolant.

AIOs have become just that: a commodity product with a fixed lifespan and when they fuck up you replace the entire assembly. Even the cheap ones have a decent micro-channel copper cooling block, glas-filled polymer plastic parts and one moving part with a ceramic bearing on the impeller (Okay; two moving parts on units with a mechanical flow sensor). By dint of their design they greatly reduce or eliminate three major issues:

1) Leaks. Sealed system, filled at factory with proper amount of expansion overhead. Unlike "custom system" coolers, all connections are permanently crimped, and decades of engineering history has already proven in automotive use that such hose connections are easily good for a decade under the most adverse conditions. Argue all you like about leaks in principle; but the fact is that leaks in this type of assembly are so rare as to be statistically insignificant.

2) Noise. Liquid-cooling operates at much lower velocity than air-cooled solutions. Much less noise.

3) Dust contamination. Because they operate at much lower velocity, they carry much less particulate matter through the chassis. Dust accumulation in the case is greatly reduced.

Now environmentally... obviously not as friendly as big chunks of aluminum extrusion that melt down with near-zero waste. But that is getting better; automotive recycling processes directly apply, and as we learn to make electrolysis-fighting radiator/cooling-block assemblies, and the standard of the industry moves towards better, ion-inert coolants, that lifespan will only increase.

But first, the manufacturers have to realize that there is demand for this. And that comes from one thing: feedback from the people doing deployment. And that WILL come; as processors become more powerful and the need for higher processor density continues to increase, the reality that air-cooling just doesn't cut it anymore will sink in for even the most reluctant datacenter management teams. It really is only a matter of time; I fully expect to see processors factory-equipped with integrated liquid cooling become commonplace in my lifetime; same with GPUs.

We REALLY ARE at that point already; "The Future" is NOW. 

Cheers,

mnem
*AIO-Dwagon*

[Black Phoenix]

Just leaving this here...

I would love to be able to say as he says, " (...) And yes, yes, I am absolutely it is not necessary, I am a crazy person but... I wanted it (...)

Last times I've been building beastly systems was always for others, my last beastly system was in the old times of the AMD Phenom II X4 965 Black:

Asus M4A89GTD-PRO-USB3.0 with Corsair Dominator 16 GB (4 x 4 GB) DDR3-1866 and 2x XFX AMD Radeon HD 7870 Core Edition

After that it has been Laptop trip for me

Reason for edit - correction of specs

[beanflying]

Watched it this morning  Also an interesting look at PCIe4 drives against the EVO970's here.

[mnementh]

Yeah, we already know that the Flash is limiting the BW. PCIe 4.0 isn't about what you can get out of today's flash with the current crop of "interim storage devices"; it's about the next gen that's built from the ground up for those speeds. Which my experiments with nvmes in RAID show the interface can support crazy high speeds as promised; and more importantly, even on the channel served by the chipset.

I knew I was paying a premium price for bleeding edge on my MB. I'm not willing to pay it for the "half-step" SSDs being offered right now.

mnem
*Roadkill on the Information Superhighway*

[mnementh]

I would love to be able to say as he says, " (...) And yes, yes, I am absolutely it is not necessary, I am a crazy person but... I wanted it (...)

Yup... no matter how much you spend on the "bleeding edge"; there's always some wing-ding ready to out-spend you. 

This build is for ME, not for what other people think. Just like my 1055T w/16GB DDR3/1333 was 10 years ago...  Since I figured out what was killing my Sleep Mode, I'm loving the thing. Already at the desktop by the time the monitor finishes waking up. 

mnem
*Toddles off to ded*

[Black Phoenix]

Another one:

[beanflying]

Seems the first of the Gigabyte 5700 XT's is on sale locally. It would sort of complete my then $2k system 

[Black Phoenix]

Go for it... Your system will thank you, your wallet will not!

[mnementh]

I'm moving right now, which means I'm pretty much just hemorrhaging money. Not for a while, I think. 

mnem
 

[mnementh]

Interesting... I stopped back at my MB's support page to see if there's any new FW updates...



mnem
Andale!!!

[ChunkyPastaSauce]

Interesting... I stopped back at my MB's support page to see if there's any new FW updates...



mnem
Andale!!!

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-gigabyte-pulls-pcie-4.0-support,40085.html   might impact you depending on what you have

[Black Phoenix]

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-gigabyte-pulls-pcie-4.0-support,40085.html   might impact you depending on what you have

He have an Aorus X570, that question doesn't apply to him, only on X470 that weren't designed originally to support PCI-E Gen4.

[beanflying]

Interesting... I stopped back at my MB's support page to see if there's any new FW updates...



mnem
Andale!!!

Not sure when my Gigabyte board allowed 3200 native but it has been fine from day one for me. https://www.gigabyte.com/au/Motherboard/B450-AORUS-PRO-WIFI-rev-10/support#support-dl-bios

Last upgrade did away with any PCIe4 support but not a big deal as nothing I have can or makes use of it. Even SSD's at PCIe4 seem to be of limited speed increases over the Samsung 970's on PCIe3.

Current GPU upgrade options 

Stock 5700XT and mod the fan system with 3DP and bigger quieter fans $380 USD+Tax fun project but still a no.
Gigabyte 5700 XT $450 USD + Tax
PowerColor 5700XT $475 + Tax
Gigabyte 2070 Super $470 + Tax

Much as the rest of my build is AMD based the current discounts on the 2070 Super is looking like the better option.

[mnementh]

That's JEDEC speed, NOT XMP speed. There are only a few such RAM out there right now; most with pretty high latencies. But like the current crop of NAND Flash, this X570 chipset is designed with the next generation of memory that's just around the corner in mind, not what's currently out there.

As you can see; by shifting the money around to different columns, I was still able to afford my next-gen goodness while still coming in at approximately the same amount over-budget you did.

As for the choice of AGP... I've never liked NVidia with AMD; they too often break core chipset stuff without compunction. Like  a couple years ago when for 8 months every damn thing they had that wasn't absolute latest model you could either lose DirectX11 or lose SLEEP mode... and for 6 months of that they refused to even acknowledge that it was their fucking new global driver set causing the fault. 

Fuck NVidia. With a shovel. Sideways.

mnem
NO regrets.

[beanflying]

When it comes to GPU's in looking at both camps neither are complete Angels. For those who bit on a Radeon VII only released early this year wouldn't be that happy. As the 2070 Super is a refresh not a new one from the ground up the improvements in FPS @ 1440P and small bump in rendering over the 5700XT for $20 makes it in the mix.

If it was $50+ USD I would go buy a really nice bottle of Scotch with the change to console myself over the Gamer Life threatening FPS counts

[beanflying]

And the answer today was I got a Gigabyte 5700XT for $420 USD +tax shipped by twisting an arm slightly

Not sure if it will be Scotch or a box of Good Beer with the $50 'saved' 

In about a week for any Aussies out there I will have the lightly used and very tidy Gigabyte 580 up for grabs $230 AUD shipped in Oz.

[mnementh]

I thought you were gonna save that 580 for the Woody...?

I've been a bit busy; by the time I have any breathing room, I expect the ROG STRIX 5700XT will be available (Did it come and go and I missed it...?). Really disappointed in the performance from the XFX offering; also not best pleased with Giga's choice to stick with the reference cooler design.

mnem
 

[beanflying]

Nope Tri Fan Gigabyte. They may still be flogging off the leftover reference ones in the USA  eBay auction: #174015379363



Version one of the woody case is just going APU but there is a distinct possibility the 560 I am sitting on may go in V II 

[mnementh]

Oooooh.... that's just... nipply. 

   I've looked at a few of the comparison charts saying the ASUS and the Giga are about neck & neck, but not looked too closely. Didn't know they had their TriGun TriFan version out. Now that I think of it, pretty obvious that must be the model they're comparing against.

Again... sortof glad I don't have time to even think about it right now. I'm hoping that by the time I can "think GPU", the pricing wars will have settled out in my favor. 

mnem
WhuWeTalkinAbout...?

[beanflying]

Comparison here against some of the other suspects in 1080 and 1440 gaming fresh as of a few hours ago. These only seemed to hit a few retailers over last weekend with some still offloading the reference cards at a small discount.

[beanflying]

Gigity 3, 2 and their slightly weird small cousin MSI the PCI.

Used the clean install driver option and opened up fine but then starting giving me grief on what seems to have been the memory overclock I did a while ago that has been stable and never glitched.  Back to stock XMP and been solid since with stress testing and ran some benchmarks to see how it stacked up.

Cinebench and PC Mark were the same more or less with the 580 or the 5700XT losing the few % of memory speed is a PITA so I will take another look now it is stable again.

As expected Heaven and 3DMark the 5700XT smoked the 580 by 2:1. Heaven 2821, 112FPS vs 1378, 55FPS. 3DMark 8901 vs 4618. Both of these were run @ 1440P Ultra settings on Heaven.

So little productivity gain if any to be had for the $ but anything needing frame rate then worth the $.

[beanflying]

Added some low cost B to my RGB today. Beats having to keep it dusted on the shelf. 5V @ < 5mA. Not as bright IRL the phone camera was over showing it.

[Mechatrommer]

Cheapest option is buying  HP Z600 workstation for 150 Euro and fitting two Xeon X5670. Make sure you get the later motherboard supporting these and buy one taht already comes with two CPUs.
Then fit a SSD and a Geforce GTX860. Buy memory.
Total cost is around 400 Euro for 24 virtual cores,  24GB RAM, GTX and SSD.
Can't beat this price/performance ratio.
Regards,
Vitor

this have had me poisoned ever since... in fear of being left out of stock, i grab one Z800 from US seller raw cost $255 (excl shipping, vary with countries) inside are 2pcs Xeon X5675 3.07GHz on HP (custom?) MoBo, 24GB DDR3 ECC RAM, NVidia Quadro 4000 Graphics, 1TB HDD, DVD RW, 850-1000W? PSU, and a thick boat anchor grade unpenetrable casing with nice HP emblem on the side and some wind deflectors / RAM fans / HDD & DVD bays inside. you can get cheaper $200 from the seller if you pick the lowest spec Xeon X5570 2.93GHz 12GB RAM. you can find him in ebay US easy, 2 unit left from him...

unfortunately on mine, the Quadro 4000 is not working properly (broken), so i have to find another card as replacement, a $70 Radeon RX470 is choosen due to its performance/price report in the net. its new unit, but not a new model (2016?) (corrected: ex-mining unit). comparing the spec,i believe this buy is still worth it even if the old sluggish Quadro is still working. another $25 cheap-arse 120GB SSD upgrade, the bundled 1TB HDD becomes 2ndary. so total $350. info in the net indicating people OC this Xeon up to 4.5GHz stable (with water cooled), but the stock HP MOBO is dumb ass wont let any clock tuning. the OC capable dual Xeon socket Mobo is still out of reach, price wise (or not really worth it for this cheap-arse alternative) so i have to live by the Non OC stock speed but with Turbo Boost enabled.

i'm surprised 14 pages and at least 2 tweakers here, not much report on performance. only the nvme report afaics. for free graphics (game oriented person) benchmark can be downloaded at https://benchmark.unigine.com/heaven?lang=en so let me show my benchmark first , i dont expect this one thirdth of a thousand used PC will be any wonder in performance, maybe latest HW can easily achieve 3X of this? but i'll be happy if anything can render at more than 30fps the oldie standard, i wont push myself to be dependent on faster screen refresh rate spec otoh disk write report is abysimal at 10-100MB/s rate, not sure what they are and not really care. well i mean what can i expect from a $25 SSD connected to old SATA on a 10 yrs old MOBO? i wont go into hassle of nvme/pcie hack, this old system may not support it in anyway, and GBytes of data transfer daily is not what this machine is intended for, so that is not really critical imho.

i dont really have an urgent need for this, i just dont want to miss the 12 core xeon party before its gone. even with shipping cost that i paid, i think i cant get the price, not even close if i try to gather parts from current technology (intel only mind you) that can match the core and ram spec. the purpose will be mainly for its core number to run some homebrew simulation if i need to, and to run investor/fusion those heavy stuffs etc. not to mention that i hate any windows other than XP, esp 64bits, some of my app cant be installed in it. but it seems inevitable on this 24GB RAM machine. and what is sucks more is the AMD only produce 64bits Radeon now i dont know what they are thinking, i should be aware of this before buying the card. anyway i believe it will be mostly under the shelf unless the kids want to play games with it. fwiw...

a bit related: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/home-made-dvi-i-to-vga-converter-possible/msg2696928/#msg2696928

[Mechatrommer]

this guy is nuts... he put a $300+ top referenced benchmark GTX1080Ti card, $100+ 500GB NVME etc on the $200+ Z800 mainframe, so this imho pretty much close to the $1000 PC (12 corer) for CAD (and GAME) ballpark. in his website Green PC Gamers, he listed compatible peripherals to Z800, all of them i believe other than RAM and CPU are current tech HW, backward compatible to PCIe Gen2 and SATA II max supported by the Z800 MoBo...



me... currently waiting for the 6x8GB (48GB) ECC RAM ($80) from China to add to existing 24GB but half populated RAM slots HP Z800 Memory Configuration and Optimization and... another $100+ Nitro+ RX 580 8GB because i regret for being too cheap on the $70 RX 470 card, with only $30 addition on used RX580, i'll get extra 4GB GDDR5 RAM, nice backplate, and extra 10% performance boost. RX470 will be reselled or reallocated to another PC. in the mean time currently trying to setup some CAD SW and Games to try how this Z800 perform in real life. so far, trying to load few sample models in Inventors simultaneously and playing Assasin's Creed Origin is a breeze experience. still struggling to make Titan Fall to work in this mainframe. really, i believe RX 470 is more than adequate for regular gamers imho, 60fps++ on 720p is easily achievable, 40fps+ on 1080p is more than what people use to be happy with at much lower res... for more tighter budget, a used 2GB RAM card should also do the job as minimum requirement (Titan Fall)...

this really bring up the memory of once upon in time except this time is much much more details and complexity compared to games decades ago. my Radeon HD4650 1GB is feeling old now.

[Mechatrommer]

Assassin's Creed Origin on HP Z800 + Radeon RX470 4GB OC (720P) Quick Test


Autodesk Inventor Pro 2019 on HP Z800 + Radeon RX470 4GB OC (720P) Quick Test


edit: at last... the game that is...
Noobs Playing Titan Fall 2 on HP Z800 + Radeon RX470 4GB OC (720P)


https://www.ea.com/games/titanfall/titanfall-2/buy
https://www.origin.com/sgp/en-us/store/assassins-creed/assassins-creed-origins

[beanflying]

Random Warm Shack air cooled testing 35C ambient on the bench.

Ryzen 3700X, Gigabyte B450 WiFi, Gigabyte 5700XT Gaming OC, couple of Samsung NVME and 32GB of memory stuffed in a Cooler Master H500 (non P).

Not very thorough but just a sanity check for me on the setup for the upcoming Summer when the Shack can hit well into the 40's at times.

Max CPU Temps on any of the test got to 78C and generally sat at low to mid 60's, Drives mid 50C peak of 58C. No figures on the GPU but it was far from loud even running Heaven which is 100%GPU usage.

Ran Heaven for 20 minutes and tested running 100+FPS @ 1440 and backed it up with a run through PC Mark 10.

No I won't be running out and dropping in a watercooler 'yet' and with a high ambient environment I would suggest any gains in clock speed or performance would be minimal as the cooler will get to equilibrium with the ambient fairly quickly in these conditions.

Flameporoof suit and bucket of water available