$1000 USD CAD and Rendering Workhorse. Getting the Balance right?

[wraper]

Here it is on 5 year old Z97 mobo with DDR3. One of my Ryzen mobos has exactly the same chip.

[mnementh]

It perfectly negates what you said that RAM voltage is chipset dependent because of "special kind" of VRM controllers  . Here is an example when it's just a dumb VRM. If motherboard has ability to change voltage, it just tinkers with feedback divider.

You said "special". I was talking about BETTER. But hey, feel free to counter with obtuseness and attacking made up arguments.

Cheers,

mnem
This is where I sometimes put some pithy remark.

[wraper]

It perfectly negates what you said that RAM voltage is chipset dependent because of "special kind" of VRM controllers  . Here is an example when it's just a dumb VRM. If motherboard has ability to change voltage, it just tinkers with feedback divider.

You said "special". I was talking about BETTER. But hey, feel free to counter with obtuseness and attacking made up arguments.

WHERE you said anything about BETTER? You simply said that VRM cannot do voltage for another type of RAM because VRM is chipset specific. FYI there were examples in the past how same chipset was used on motherboards with different RAM types. Say AMD 790X based motherboards came with DDR2 memory (1.8V) and later appeared motherboards based on it but with DDR3 RAM (1.5V) once AM3 CPUs hit the market.
EDIT:
You later also said:

currently popular IC families just can't provide with any stability.

Which is baseless claim. And I repeat again, RAM VRM controller has nothing to do with chipset. So this point is moot.

[nctnico]

But DDR4 and DDR5 aren't DDR3. These memories run at several GHz and very low voltages. The voltage ripple requirements are much more tight compared to the older type of memories. It is definitely not just a matter of changing a voltage divider!

* I'm currently working on a SoC design which uses DDR4 memory. These things aren't funny but hard core RF design.

[wraper]

But DDR4 and DDR5 aren't DDR3. These memories run at several GHz and very low voltages. The voltage ripple requirements are much more tight than for the older type of memories. It is definitely not just a matter of changing a voltage divider!

There is 0.1V difference with DDR4. I did not say that particular controller should be used with DDR5. What I said that RAM VRM usually is dumb and has nothing to do with chipset.

[mnementh]

It perfectly negates what you said that RAM voltage is chipset dependent because of "special kind" of VRM controllers  . Here is an example when it's just a dumb VRM. If motherboard has ability to change voltage, it just tinkers with feedback divider.

You said "special". I was talking about BETTER. But hey, feel free to counter with obtuseness and attacking made up arguments.

WHERE you said anything about BETTER? You simply said that VRM cannot do voltage for another type of RAM because VRM is chipset specific. FYI there were examples in the past how same chipset was used on motherboards with different RAM types. Say AMD 790X based motherboards came with DDR2 memory (1.8V) and later appeared motherboards based on it but with DDR3 RAM (1.5V) once AM3 CPUs hit the market.
EDIT:
You later also said:

currently popular IC families just can't provide with any stability.

Which is baseless claim. And I repeat again, RAM VRM controller has nothing to do with chipset. So this point is moot.

I said no such thing...

What I've read indicates that DDR5 support will require lower voltages and even tighter ripple tolerances that the currently popular IC families just can't provide with any stability. There WILL have to be different hardware on the MB to even consider DDR5.

We DO know that AMD has been deeply involved with several major RAM manufacturers in developing this new release. That does lend some grain of credibility to the suggestion that DDR5 support is just around the corner as well.

mnem
 

BETTER. Jeezus.

Furthermore, this was JUST CONJECTURAL DISCUSSION. One of THOUSANDS of conversations I read in the last several months while looking into my next step. However, the folks talking were pretty convincing in their conjecture, and I was passing it on as JUST THAT: Discussion I'd read. And yes, I'd love to give you the link to that discussion so you can go there and troll them instead of me, but I've spent more than an hour in the last two days looking, and now I've gotten to the point where I'm all out of GAF.

FFS, this is NOT an engineering thread... it is casual conversation about where to go with bean's next build. Get some effing perspective man. If I AM WRONG, it's not even ME... it's other people. And you are NOT this guy:



You don't need to protect this little corner of the internet from me; please, just get over yourself. Please go stalk someone else.

mnem
Why does every effing random conversation in here have to turn into legal discourse... 

[olkipukki]

Interesting figures on Solidworks.

SolidEdge 

I did some research on the Fusion forum and all the staff seem to say it helps. Still going to be a major step up from what I currently have to play with.

Yes, indeed, but I would prefer, for example, 6 core 4GHz each than 12 - 2.4Ghz

[olkipukki]

I would go for a Z620 at least. With 2x4 cores. Or a Z420 with 6 cores. Clocks go higher, which matters, and the Z600 is getting old, reliability is questionable. The Z620 is about 5 years old, so leasing companies are duping it on ebay.

IMHO,
It will over budget or close to max, 2x E5-26n0 (where n>4) min 3GHz and at least 64GB RAM can last 3-5 years more.
HDD/SSD and video card come with Z620 go straight to the bin, so new M.2 SSD(+adapter?)/video card for OP's tasks anyway.
Well, assuming old-new stuff do not cause any problems.

In our days, native M.2 must by default for any workstation-type workloads

[beanflying]

Interesting figures on Solidworks.

SolidEdge 

I did some research on the Fusion forum and all the staff seem to say it helps. Still going to be a major step up from what I currently have to play with.

Yes, indeed, but I would prefer, for example, 6 core 4GHz each than 12 - 2.4Ghz

Oopsy I had my Autodesk fanboy hat on  Most definitely not that either they still have a way to go to make up for past sins across their software.

Brought a one month bandaid for the Cancer that is upgraditus for my shack HP 8300 work station. Sub $20 USD delivered from locally Quadro 600. No powerhouse but about all it is worth spending on it.

[KC0PPH]

Looks like the thread got derailed.

My workstation is:

AMD Threadripper 1950X
Asus ROG Motherboard
64 Gb RAM
512 M.2 SSD
1TB Spinny HD
EVGA RTX 2070 Graphics Card

The TR is a bit overkill however 1950X is a good option as they have come down in price. It is amazing the power it has doing tasks that are optimized for multi core
The Motherboards are expensive and if you wanted similar performance that will last a decade I would go with a top of the line Ryzen CPU.

As for RAM 16 GB is enough if your not using a lot of VM's. Buy a single 16Gb stick and put it in if you are using Ryzen or 2 8Gb if you are using TR as you can always double your RAM to 32Gb. You get max performance with 2 sticks in Ryzen and 4 sticks in TR, however you can leave room to upgrade later. Looking back 64Gb was stupid to get, although its nice to run 3 VM's with 16gb dedicated to each.


The graphics card is overkill for most applications. You could easily spend half of what I did and still not suffer any in what you want to do. Eventually I want to get an actual workstation graphics card as NVidia limits performance inside VM's (AMD Does not FYI). This point is what I have heard. I run a lot of applications in VM's and do not seem to run into any issues.

Point to story

If the $1200 is a hard limit then get a Ryzen processor, dont skimp on the Motherboard, get 16 gig of ram, 1 500gb M.2 SSD 1 1Tb Spinny HD, and some Grpahics card in the sub $250 range.

Also trust me its hard to get a system built without that RGB crap all over it. I finally managed to figure out how to turn all that shit off. Amazing how much people are into that.

[beanflying]

I have just setup a Synology 4TB raid NAS so at this stage the plan is to go with just an SSD in the box.

Just did an evilbay and Amazon check on my basic spec in the first post. I haven't looked at shaving the prices at all and evilbay has some local reputable suppliers that are cheaper than Amazon on some of the bits without going direct to their sites to check as well.

The pic below is in AUpesos (including our local 10% GST) so x0.7 for USD and it is at circa $1000 USD + tax so there is still some room to move around and see how the upcoming releases play with the pricing.

[mnementh]

I'd still wait and get a 570 board. Everything in your list will PROBABLY work with; plus full support for another generation of chips AND pcie4.0. I paid $US130 for my XFX xXx Edition RX580 8GB; caught it when the bottom fell out from under GPU mining a few months ago. That accidental score was actually what kicked off my own upgrade frenzy...

mnem
*toddling off to ded*

[TERRA Operative]

Has anyone mentioned looking into Quadro cards for the GPU?
Full OpenGL support, great for video editing and specific drivers are available for certain 3D packages.

[CatalinaWOW]

I am like OP in not having upgraded for quite a while, so can't offer much advice.  My only comment is that amazingly, 500 Gbytes seems cramped now days.  CAD files are often huge, video and images grow all the time, and various software packages suck up major space.  Throw in a dual or more operating system and it really is cramped. 

[wraper]

I'd still wait and get a 570 board. Everything in your list will PROBABLY work with; plus full support for another generation of chips AND pcie4.0. I paid $US130 for my XFX xXx Edition RX580 8GB; caught it when the bottom fell out from under GPU mining a few months ago. That accidental score was actually what kicked off my own upgrade frenzy...

mnem
*toddling off to ded*

Apparently they will be $200+

[tszaboo]

I would go for a Z620 at least. With 2x4 cores. Or a Z420 with 6 cores. Clocks go higher, which matters, and the Z600 is getting old, reliability is questionable. The Z620 is about 5 years old, so leasing companies are duping it on ebay.

IMHO,
It will over budget or close to max, 2x E5-26n0 (where n>4) min 3GHz and at least 64GB RAM can last 3-5 years more.
HDD/SSD and video card come with Z620 go straight to the bin, so new M.2 SSD(+adapter?)/video card for OP's tasks anyway.
Well, assuming old-new stuff do not cause any problems.

In our days, native M.2 must by default for any workstation-type workloads

There are sellers on ebay, where you can configure your workstation to your liking. Then you can ask for no HDD+SSD+Video, and use your won. BTW, most likely the video card could stay, since there werent any breakthrough in graphics cards for CAD anyway.
Here is a listing with a freaking 10 core liquid cooled Z420, for half the budget:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Z420-3-00GHz-10-Core-E5-2690-v2-32GB-RAM-500GB-HDD-FX3800-No-OS-Liquid-Cooled/183199535303?hash=item2aa78b10c7:g:08wAAOSwsqdcLLm3
People dont realize that DDR3 ECC memory is stupidly cheap now.

[nctnico]

I second the suggestion to get a used professional workstation from Dell or HP. These have far better thermal management design compared to a generic computer casing. As a result the computer will be more silent and more reliable.

[wraper]

As a result the computer will be more silent and more reliable.

What's for sure, it will be louder compared to custom build with properly selected components.

[sokoloff]

I ran a Z420 at work for years. I have Dell 9020s at home. Both are/were, for all practical purposes, silent in any typical room.

[beanflying]

For what it is worth I will say it again I am in this case reluctant to go down the path of second hand maxxed out and used. And it may still be right for others but I choose NO.

Given my Video processing requirement something around 6-8Gb of GPU is going to be required based on my research regardless of the base unit. Looking at recycled servers in Oz and adding video and an SSD would see the $ upward of 60% of a new build with very limited to nil prospects of further or future upgrades, not something I see as a good option going forward.

[mnementh]

I'd still wait and get a 570 board. Everything in your list will PROBABLY work with; plus full support for another generation of chips AND pcie4.0. I paid $US130 for my XFX xXx Edition RX580 8GB; caught it when the bottom fell out from under GPU mining a few months ago. That accidental score was actually what kicked off my own upgrade frenzy...

mnem
*toddling off to ded*

Apparently they will be $200+

From what's been listed so far, $40-60 more than equivalent 470 chipset boards, as I stated in my original "dissertation". I think that's definitely where you want to not cheap out.

For what it is worth I will say it again I am in this case reluctant to go down the path of second hand maxxed out and used. And it may still be right for others but I choose NO.

Given my Video processing requirement something around 6-8Gb of GPU is going to be required based on my research regardless of the base unit. Looking at recycled servers in Oz and adding video and an SSD would see the $ upward of 60% of a new build with very limited to nil prospects of further or future upgrades, not something I see as a good option going forward.

In general, I agree. But I would NOT overlook the opportunity to save some bucks towards other components by carefully shopping used video cards. There are still deals like mine above to be had; I got it like new in box with everything for half the price of new. I'm certain it was used for several months in a GPU mining rig, as it's a dual-firmware model with factory OC; but it was obviously well-cared-for and all the Abuse-mark testing I could dish out to it just laughed at me.   

mnem
*back into my hole*

[wraper]

In general, I agree. But I would NOT overlook the opportunity to save some bucks towards other components by carefully shopping used video cards. There are still deals like mine above to be had; I got it like new in box with everything for half the price of new. I'm certain it was used for several months in a GPU mining rig, as it's a dual-firmware model with factory OC; but it was obviously well-cared-for and all the Abuse-mark testing I could dish out to it just laughed at me.   

Those bucks which you "will save" will bite you in the ass as electricity cost unless you live in Russia with their tiny electricity price. People underappreciate how much electricity is actually consumed by computer which runs for significant time. In it's lifetime money paid for electricity likely to exceed cost of computer itself, often multiple times. If you run something like $400 9y old dual xeon for and use somewhere like in Australia, you very likely will pay it's cost as electricity in less than a year.

[mnementh]

Bean has already stated that an 8GB RX580 is part of the design spec. And that still doesn't make carefully shopped used video cards any less of a good idea.

mnem
 

[nctnico]

As a result the computer will be more silent and more reliable.

What's for sure, it will be louder compared to custom build with properly selected components.

You really have no idea what you are talking about. A standard casing is no match for a casing which is designed from A to Z (which includes placement of the CPU and memory on the motherboard) to have optimum cooling. Sure you can mount low noise fans in a standard casing but you'll be burning up the components in the process and/or run your GPU and processor at snail speed because they go into thermal protection.

[wraper]

As a result the computer will be more silent and more reliable.

What's for sure, it will be louder compared to custom build with properly selected components.

You really have no idea what you are talking about. A standard casing is no match for a casing which is designed from A to Z (which includes placement of the CPU and memory on the motherboard) to have optimum cooling.

I'm sitting near to PC I assembled myself and the only thing which is barely audible in a completely silent room is PSU. I got rid of all HDD and replaced with SSD because even quietest of them were the loudest thing in the system.
 

Sure you can mount low noise fans in a standard casing but you'll be burning up the components in the process and/or run your GPU and processor at snail speed because they go into thermal protection.

Barely any workstation runs as cool as my PC. And when it comes to GPU, most of workstations won't provide good cooling unless you use GPU with noisy blower fan which blows the air outside of computer. And frankly you need to do something very wrong when building PC to make it possible for CPU to throttle. Like using inadequate CPU cooler in a cheap case which has poor ventilation and zero fans.