Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B

[protoneer]

I sent the code to protoneer. He will set it up on Github or wherever, as he suggested

Thanks ar__systems !!!!

I have created a Github repository for it this project ---> https://github.com/TVM802/TMV802-Protocol

[ar__systems]

Anyone tested it yet? It should compile right away with Visual Studio Express.

[protoneer]

Yes.. it runs. Also started looking at the code and from what I have seen its going to be very helpful. Thanks again for the contribution.

[thommo]

Hey guys,

Just wondering if anyone out there is aware of any purchases of the TVM920 machine and, if so, have there been any reviews or feedback on it?

[uncle_bob]

Hey guys,

Just wondering if anyone out there is aware of any purchases of the TVM920 machine and, if so, have there been any reviews or feedback on it?

Hi

Looking only at the price, it appears to be closer to a Neoden 4.

Bob

[thommo]

Hi Uncle Bob,

Yes, similar to Neoden4, but with additional, and somewhat more reliable Yamaha, feeders. I intend buying one shortly and just wanted to know if anyone else out there in EEVblog land has also.

Hey guys,

Just wondering if anyone out there is aware of any purchases of the TVM920 machine and, if so, have there been any reviews or feedback on it?

Hi

Looking only at the price, it appears to be closer to a Neoden 4.

Bob

[harry4516]

the TVM920 is (incl. feeders) about double the price of a TVM802.
Regarding the technical data the placement precision is the same.

If it makes sense to go for the TVM920 depends how well the 920 is adjusted by the factory.
The TVM802 comes with a "basic" adjustment which does not work at all and a manual which covers only a few simple functions in "chinese-english".
After receiving the 802 a lot of work has to be done to understand the machine, to enter all the stack coordinates and
to make all adjustments which usually takes a few days of work. Also every few weeks some adjustments have to be corrected for best placement precision.

This is fine, I don't complain, it is a very good balance between price and quality and I love my 802.

But if I go for a machine which costs >$10k then I would expect a much easier and faster setup. But I don't believe that the TVM920 is much different. Regarding the mechanics
its almost the same as the TVM802.

[protoneer]

I created a JS script to convert Kicad Pos Files into TVM802 CSV files...

Code is available from  : https://github.com/TVM802/KICAD-POS-TO-CSV

Makes it a little easier to work with. Still need to manually set the reels to be used and so on.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

Ok, it's down to decision time:

TVM802A

--or--

TVM802B

--or--

save the money and buy nothing

I've hopped back and forth between several use scenarios for this machine. I still may hop again. Right now I have it narrowed down to the "lab machine" and not the "short run production machine".

I've ruled out the "no vision" machines. They simply will not handle the 0.5 mm stuff I need to place. I've ruled out the > $7K machines. I simply do not have the need / budget / cash flow to justify one. The application is short run prototypes in the lab. No production volumes. No 10 panels of 64 boards in one run. If the machine runs 4 hours twice a week .... that's about it. I'd rather spend the time on setup and get it right than spend two days placing parts by hand and get it wrong. (Yes, I've priced out contract assembly ... $250 (setup + shipping parts out + shipping stuff back)  x 20 jobs = $5,000 ... you just paid for the machine).

Is the A big enough for what I do? If I split jobs and swap reels, sure it is. If I cobble up a tray system and do this or that, I can handle the big IC's. Can I screw in nozzles every 30 minutes? Sure. It does begin to be a bit of a pain when you do all of that though. There also is some cost involved. I'd love to say that cost is not an issue, but it always is. It's also a lot more expensive to buy an A and then go back and get a B six months later.

What do I mean by 0.5 mm pitch parts? I include 0402 passives in that category, but not 0201's. Fine pitch flat pack packages in the 100 to 200 pin range are certainly in that category. 1 mm pitch BGA's are in. I'd love to think that 0.5 mm BGA's are in as well. Yes indeed, placement speed is not an issue. Doing this at "dead slow" with vision on -- not a problem at all.  My time (for this exercise) costs nothing if it's used getting the machine set up. Tuning / tweaking / calibrating is an expected part of this. No, I won't come set up your machine for free

Enough background. Here's the questions:

If you have an A, would you get one again or would you go for a B?

If you have a B, would you get an A if you had it to do over again?

If you have either an A or a B, would you *not* get one if you had it to do again?

Do you have a non-vision machine that reliably places 0.5 mm pitch parts?

Then the same set of questions, with the qualifiers of my very low volume and possibly insane fine pitch needs ...

What's the consensus?

Bob

[rx8pilot]

Do you have a non-vision machine that reliably places 0.5 mm pitch parts?

 
My guess is that .5mm without vision would struggle in the 'reliability category. Can't wait to hear from actual user experience.

[protoneer]

I have an A and will buy a second one anytime. For a B's price I would rather look at a bigger machine with removable feeders.

The TVM9XX sounds nice but I will only buy one if it still uses TCP. OpenPnp is just a matter of time.

If you have lots of diff parts per board the A looses to th B. My stuff uses lots of the same parts so I am happy with the number of reels.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Do you have a non-vision machine that reliably places 0.5 mm pitch parts?

 
My guess is that .5mm without vision would struggle in the 'reliability category. Can't wait to hear from actual user experience.

Might be just about doable with mechanical centering, but buying a P&P machine without vision is just stupid.

[dermeister]

I decided on the B because I felt like even if only 20% of the boards that I make would require me to change reels to fully populate them, that would be enough hassle to justify spending the additional money for the larger machine. Given how some people in this thread have reported that the feeders can be finicky to adjust/calibrate properly, I want to keep reel changes to a minimum and also keep some feeders dedicated to components that are very common (like 100nF, 1µF and 10µF caps).

I bought the PnP along with a stencil printer from a seller on Aliexpress and was able to negotiate the price down to a level similar to what it would have cost to buy them off of TaoBao. The next highest tier of machines like the NeoDen4 and the TVM920 cost around $10-11k including shipping with a similar amount of feeders, so that is more than 2x the price of the TVM802B. I could not justify spending that much more for the limited number of boards I see myself assembling in small production runs.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

The TaoBao comment brings up another point:

Where to buy it / who to buy it from?

I don't speak / read / understand Chinese so TaoBao is out. Pretty much anything that I can navigate in English is fine.

Bob

[dermeister]

I bought it from Aliexpress http://bit.ly/1Up1Nri. You can send the seller a message and ask for a better price. He was incredibly pushy about making a sale, but did ship it the next day after the payment went through.

[uncle_bob]

I bought it from Aliexpress http://bit.ly/1Up1Nri. You can send the seller a message and ask for a better price. He was incredibly pushy about making a sale, but did ship it the next day after the payment went through.

Hi

I've been down the Aliexpress route on a few other similarly priced gizmos. Based on that experience, I'm waiting for the money to hit my bank before I dive in there.

Thanks!

Bob

[48X24X48X]

I don't speak / read / understand Chinese so TaoBao is out. Pretty much anything that I can navigate in English is fine.

You don't have to speak/read Chinese to use Taobao. In this case, you are not even using Taobao to purchase, just to compare the prices.
Aliexpress is where the prices are inflated to cater international customer. The TVM802B is RMB22800 on Taobao from the best seller (usually the manufacturer themselves) without shipping fees which translate to around USD3,474.73. Add few hundreds USD for shipping fee into it, you shall get your best price. Obviously, they will argue they have different quality material, etc, for domestic and international market but I don't buy into that personally. Save few hundred USD, you probably can buy a low-cost stencil printer!

By the way, I don't read Chinese too.

[coppice]

I don't speak / read / understand Chinese so TaoBao is out. Pretty much anything that I can navigate in English is fine.

You don't have to speak/read Chinese to use Taobao. In this case, you are not even using Taobao to purchase, just to compare the prices.
Aliexpress is where the prices are inflated to cater international customer. The TVM802B is RMB22800 on Taobao from the best seller (usually the manufacturer themselves) without shipping fees which translate to around USD3,474.73. Add few hundreds USD for shipping fee into it, you shall get your best price. Obviously, they will argue they have different quality material, etc, for domestic and international market but I don't buy into that personally. Save few hundred USD, you probably can buy a low-cost stencil printer!

By the way, I don't read Chinese too.

If you can't read Chinese, how to do you search on TaoBao? If you try entering English in the search box you seldom get many appropriate responses. If you translate with Google translate, and paste in the Chinese, things are slightly better, but not much.

[48X24X48X]

If you translate with Google translate, and paste in the Chinese, things are slightly better, but not much.

I would use Google translate in the  1st round. Yes, it will not be optimize BUT you do get some item that is exactly what you want.
From there, you got 2 choice:

• Use the "find similar" option on the correct item (mouse over the item, it will show that "find similar" button). You get a tonnes search result of the same item by clicking the "find similar" option.
• Copy the chinese words of the correct item. Paste it back into google translate and remove any word that too specific. Copy the simplified Chinese word and put it back into Taobao serach.

And in the case you want to something very specific like the TVM802B, just key in that. Your result will be correct and accurate.
After a while, I started to remember more and more Chinese character on the Taobao website menu.
Nothing is perfect but both works wonder for me.

[uncle_bob]

If you translate with Google translate, and paste in the Chinese, things are slightly better, but not much.

I would use Google translate in the  1st round. Yes, it will not be optimize BUT you do get some item that is exactly what you want.
From there, you got 2 choice:

• Use the "find similar" option on the correct item (mouse over the item, it will show that "find similar" button). You get a tonnes search result of the same item by clicking the "find similar" option.
• Copy the chinese words of the correct item. Paste it back into google translate and remove any word that too specific. Copy the simplified Chinese word and put it back into Taobao serach.

And in the case you want to something very specific like the TVM802B, just key in that. Your result will be correct and accurate.
After a while, I started to remember more and more Chinese character on the Taobao website menu.
Nothing is perfect but both works wonder for me.

Hi

Chrome and Google Translate let me move around TaoBao pretty well. I can search and sort of figure out what's what. For small stuff, I'll do the "give it a try" stuff to order something. Maybe the translator makes a mistake and I'm out $35 due to a shipping glitch. Doing that with a "many thousands of dollars" item ... not so much.

I do agree that TaoBao gives you a better view of the internal market prices. Since it often decouples shipping from sale, the delivered price may be a bit "exciting".  On something small, there is really no paperwork and things just come in. On something big, there will be some paperwork and a nice little bill after the fact collecting the government's share of the transaction. That's true if the paperwork is entered correctly on the other end. If not ... its a 4 hour drive to straighten it out.

Lots of fun

Bob

[harry4516]

Bob, my decision was for the B and I would do it again.

I have put all the "standard" parts on the back stack, i.e. 1k 10k 100k 1n 100n 1u 10u Si-Diodes and N and P channel Mosfets.
The left stack is used for all special parts I need for a specific board.
This saves me a lot of time since changing reels in the TVM802 is not an easy job.

The precision of the 802 is very good, if carefully adjusted.
The long term precision is not good, so it needs readjustments from time to time.
This makes it an ideal machine for low quantities.
If I need boards in quantities >100 then I go to a professional manufacturer.

[uncle_bob]

Bob, my decision was for the B and I would do it again.

I have put all the "standard" parts on the back stack, i.e. 1k 10k 100k 1n 100n 1u 10u Si-Diodes and N and P channel Mosfets.
The left stack is used for all special parts I need for a specific board.
This saves me a lot of time since changing reels in the TVM802 is not an easy job.

The precision of the 802 is very good, if carefully adjusted.
The long term precision is not good, so it needs readjustments from time to time.
This makes it an ideal machine for low quantities.
If I need boards in quantities >100 then I go to a professional manufacturer.

Hi

For the large volume stuff, I have other routes I can take. There is a full blown line upstairs at work. I'll admit that the quick change fancy feeders have me a bit spoiled. It's been a long time (early 1990's) since I had to "fiddle" with parts feeding. The calibration / adjustment stuff is something I'm familiar with from 3D printers. In a lot of ways the TVM802 is closer to my 3D printers than it is to the pick and place gear I've normally used. I'm more than willing to do a bit of fiddling in this case. Since everything that goes on the machine will be designed to work with the machine, I plan to keep the level of "challenge" as low as possible.

Bob

[uncle_bob]

Hi

Here's a *very* basic question that I seem to have found multiple answers to ....

As best I understand it, all the 802's share a similar base structure. Reels hang off to various sides of the A or the B. The dimension *including* the reels appears to be 900 to 980 mm. That may or may not include this or that size reel. Hopefully that's correct so far.

How big is the footprint of the machine it's self? My guess is 600 x 600 but that's only a guess.

Does anything outside that footprint need to be supported? Again only a guess, the reel holders simply hang off the base.

If the 980 is correct, does that include any room for a component reel? If so how big a reel?

I'm looking at bench space and the whole "where do I put this beast" part of the process.

Thanks!

Bob

[ar__systems]

I'll measure when I'm in the office.

For now, if you have flaky performance of the visual system, I recommend checking if cameras are in focus. You can't really see that from the tiny pictures of the original s/w. Instead, open the camera in "Camera" application. There you can see full frame and easily see if cameras are focused or not. Both cameras are glued with some red stuff, you need to peel it off before you can turn the focusing rings.

[harry4516]

for some reason I had to stop a pick&place job, and
want to continue it later at the same position.

How can I run the job from a specific line, not just from beginning ?
Is this possible with the TVM802 ?