Don't rule out Lecroy yet but they are different compared to other scopes. I have a Lecroy Wavepro 7k series -which is a much older model- myself and it does have some caveats:
- no peak detect (I knew that before buying)
- the post trigger delay is really short. On other oscilloscopes you can get to over 1 second but the Wavepro 7k is limited to the screen width. If you want to do some form of jitter analysis on a 1PPS signal then you are out of luck
- record length is automatically shortened just enough to fill the screen
- getting more advanced analysis functions going can be a bit finicky
All in all: check the datasheet very carefully if you want to buy a Lecroy scope. These scopes are great for signal analysis using math operations but for a daily driver I'd look somewhere else.
Personally I'm very wary of Rigol. They release way ahead of schedule and then fix problems based on how many units they sell. So if you happen to stumble upon a bug that is in the way of what you want to accomplish you'll likely find yourself buying a different oscilloscope. Nowadays Rigol is a very small player in the test equipment market. Siglent is much bigger if you compare them revenue wise.
I also don't quite understand why used is out of the question. Great deals can be found including units which still have a couple of years of manufacturer warranty left. The last 2 years I bought two pieces of Tektronix gear with nice discounts from reputable companies. One basically new in the box (screen protector still on) and the other in mint condition.
MSOX6000 series is least capable of all the scopes in that class. Lecroy runs circles around it dollar for dollar.
It has big screen, basic jitter package, color grading and faster A/D converters, but it is basically exactly the same scope like 3000T/4000 series.
That doesn't mean it is bad, just that there are better choices for the money.
As for Rigol, read posts of user Sighound36. He actually owns one (unlike many who still have opinion despite never tried it).
BTW, with such a budget, why not the new R&S RTO6?
The main need for this oscilloscope is for high speed signal analysis. I have been working on high speed designs already but this is becoming increasingly common and demanding so I am looking to upgrade my equipment.
I'll probably not be buying this until next year but I'm starting to evaluate the options.
Another that can be thrown in the mix is SDS6000 that should not be too far from release.
BTW, with such a budget, why not the new R&S RTO6?Thanks for the tip, definitely interesting!
Another that can be thrown in the mix is SDS6000 that should not be too far from release.
Definitely worth checking, thanks. The issue with this is my same concern about the Rigol, in that I'm not sure I should rely on a Rigol or a Siglent for professional use. If it were for hobby or occasional use it would be a no-brainer and I would probably prefer a Siglent over a Rigol for that. It would probably be also a no-brainer as a second/spare scope for professional use. There are two things at play here, first I absolutely need a scope that is reliable all the time and gives accurate and dependable readings all the time. If I even have a doubt on a measurement it's essentially unusable, and I cannot afford to waste hours here and there troubleshooting or working around scope bugs. I don't mind if the UI is weird or if I have to press 10 buttons instead of one, as long as it is functional. The second thing is that although my business is on the smaller end, I often compete or collaborate with much bigger companies so having quality 'brand name' tools can be an advantage in such cases. Still the prospective of saving some $10-20k and still having a tool that gets the job done for a business of my size is very inviting.BTW, with such a budget, why not the new R&S RTO6?Thanks for the tip, definitely interesting!The only disappointment about the RTO6 is it seems to only have an 8-bit hardware ADC, otherwise it seems a really good fit.
Another that can be thrown in the mix is SDS6000 that should not be too far from release.
Definitely worth checking, thanks. The issue with this is my same concern about the Rigol, in that I'm not sure I should rely on a Rigol or a Siglent for professional use. If it were for hobby or occasional use it would be a no-brainer and I would probably prefer a Siglent over a Rigol for that. It would probably be also a no-brainer as a second/spare scope for professional use. There are two things at play here, first I absolutely need a scope that is reliable all the time and gives accurate and dependable readings all the time. If I even have a doubt on a measurement it's essentially unusable, and I cannot afford to waste hours here and there troubleshooting or working around scope bugs. I don't mind if the UI is weird or if I have to press 10 buttons instead of one, as long as it is functional. The second thing is that although my business is on the smaller end, I often compete or collaborate with much bigger companies so having quality 'brand name' tools can be an advantage in such cases. Still the prospective of saving some $10-20k and still having a tool that gets the job done for a business of my size is very inviting.BTW, with such a budget, why not the new R&S RTO6?Thanks for the tip, definitely interesting!The only disappointment about the RTO6 is it seems to only have an 8-bit hardware ADC, otherwise it seems a really good fit.
As for "fit for professional use" we passed that point half a decade ago..
This is likely due to being relatively new to making test equipment compared to the more established brands which have decades of experience and pedigree that goes into their designs.
This is likely due to being relatively new to making test equipment compared to the more established brands which have decades of experience and pedigree that goes into their designs.
Nico, you know perfectly well that companies are made of people. And people tend to have a finite number of years. The fact that a brand has decades of experience doesn't mean it can't do new errors bigger than a recent starter.
Sorry but that is wrong. If your statement where true then we'd get cars which look like and drive like a model-T Ford every 30 years. It doesn't work that way. Rest assured that new people who get to work on the core functions get thouroughly trained by the seasoned engineers and have access to a vast library of documentation (just look at the dozens of appnotes Tektronix and Keysight have published over the past decades).
Also, "brand name tools" as advantage to customer is a moot point. If customers trust you, they will not go into that. If they don't, fancy tools are waste of money. You won't get the job. Also, if I was your customer, I would rather you have Siglent or Rigol under maintenance interval and freshly calibrated, than 15 years old Big Brand that was never calibrated.
I see more and more research papers that use Siglent and Rigol in it with no shame. Whatever prejudice is there will dissipate in next few years.
Also, "brand name tools" as advantage to customer is a moot point. If customers trust you, they will not go into that. If they don't, fancy tools are waste of money. You won't get the job. Also, if I was your customer, I would rather you have Siglent or Rigol under maintenance interval and freshly calibrated, than 15 years old Big Brand that was never calibrated.
I wouldn't presume to speak for all customers, but some of them still care--perhaps because they don't know any better, but they still have opinions. And as far as whether or not they trust you, what is that based on? If they have no other information, perhaps they are looking at your equipment. Now as far as under maintenance and freshly calibrated, we had that discussion....
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sdm3065x-issues/
QuoteI see more and more research papers that use Siglent and Rigol in it with no shame. Whatever prejudice is there will dissipate in next few years.
I'm not sure I see the connection. My take is that these brands offer great value with the occasional, often unexpected, shortcoming. I ran into this with my SDS1104X-E when I found that it had an extraordinarily long overload recovery time that prevented me using an uncommon but not unheard of measuring technique. All of my decades-old A-brand scopes were able to perform this as expected. Now I still think the Siglent is a great value, it does many things very well and I use it all the time. However, this raises two issues.
The first is what do you do when you only have one instrument capable of doing a difficult measurement and you have no way of cross-checking--so you need to have great confidence in that measurement? This isn't an 8 bit vs 10 bit or 4k vs 14M of memory question, it is a question of whether the manufacturer has carefully engineered out all of the various arcane issues that can lead to errors or unanticipated results in corner cases. On paper a Tek TPS2000 series would seem like a bad joke compared to the Siglent SDS1000X-E series, and at 10X the cost to boot. In real life doing actual work, one is better at some things and the other is better at others.
The second is how these issues are perceived by buyers when you start to move up the ladder. As I said, at $500 Siglent provides a lot of value despite the shortcomings. I could even accept some of those issues in a $1300 hackable SDS2104X+. But when you start looking at $5000-10000+ scopes, one has to start to wonder if those aren't going to have some shortcomings of their own and what those might be. If you are doing some research and none of those issues apply to you, then there indeed is no shame in using whatever works--if you can verify that it actually does work. However, if you are doing something cutting edge, or at least well beyond the basics, and you only have one instrument fresh out of the box and you absolutely have to rely on it, what would you like it to be?
It's going to be a lot more than a few years. Siglent and Rigol have made progress in the hobbyist and educational levels and are just starting to knock on the doors of the mid-level users. That and OEMing the lower end of A-brand offerings....
People are extrapolating that manufacturer of simple inexpensive cars that are good value in its class is incapable of starting making upper class models.
Because that is how they see the brand. Nobody seems to remember anymore where Japanese manufacturers were once...
Product that are MADE for hoby and entry level market, where cheap but still as good as possible is priority, are made certain way. With all the engineering compromises that stem from that.
It wasn't top of their abilities, but a deliberate choice to serve that market.
Product that are made for other markets are designed differently, made differently, tested differently.. Made by different teams, with larger budgets for BOM and R&D.
And are different products, despite carrying same logo.
That is same in R&S, in Keysight , Tektronix, Rigol or Siglent.
Except A brands think entry level money is 2000-3000 USD.
And now people think that is all they are. Take Siglent for instance. How many completely new products they developed in last few years?
You guys think that can be accomplished by being a joke? If anything, it scary how fast they learn and improve..
When R&S took almost 2 years to fix basic stuff on their new scope platform that was OK..
Why don't you doubt R&S ability to make basic measurements? In beginning they had huge problems with skipping triggers, losing parts of capture, wrong plotting etc.
How do you know THEY fixed it all? Did they put enough money into testing process? Be warned, EU or USA companies will be MORE prone to save money to control profits. Are you sure? On what basis?
With B tier companies it also about improving reputation and opportunity to prove themselves. They have to work harder. To prove the point. They are willing to give up part of profit to build quality recognition. And they do.
And then there are people that buy 15 years old LeCroy for 2000 USD, hack the licenses and then say how Siglent (or Rigol) scope for same amount of money is a toy.
They don't say that scope was 150000 USD when new, and that new one with same features is still North of 60000 USD..
There are many apples and oranges being mixed here...
So my stance on this is like always: we dabble in electronics here. And are supposed to respect measuring, not guessing stuff and real data, not speculations.
When new product is released, then we can all see what it is. Until then, it's just like bad reality TV. All smack talk, no naked people...