Today I asked my mentor who purchased 100k worth of Tek gears a couple years ago. He got over 60% off!!!
He got a 10Gsps/2GHz DPO w/most options enabled, two 200MHz DPO, a bunch of probes including HV and current clamps, a bunch of signal generators, a couple of 5.5 and 6.5 digit multimeters and 6 programmable PSUs, all for only 40K.
some low end monochrome crappy 1Gsps DPOs for almost free (the list proce is 2.8K each, which I believe no one will buy it nowadays
Today I asked my mentor who purchased 100k worth of Tek gears a couple years ago. He got over 60% off!!!
He got a 10Gsps/2GHz DPO w/most options enabled, two 200MHz DPO, a bunch of probes including HV and current clamps, a bunch of signal generators, a couple of 5.5 and 6.5 digit multimeters and 6 programmable PSUs, all for only 40K.
"Mentor" sounds like education, and in education the rules re. pricing are completely different from the outside world.
Yes. AFAIK almost all major brands offer educational prices to universities, faculties and students.
Just amazed by how they can sell an unit for 40% its price and keeping a healthy profit margin.
Seems like they want to stimulate students to use their products. Just like component manufacturers. We have virtually unlimited (fair use) free supply of TI, Infineon, CoilCraft and Cree parts.
some low end monochrome crappy 1Gsps DPOs for almost free (the list proce is 2.8K each, which I believe no one will buy it nowadays
You'd be surprised
But the sad reality is that you can't do a lot with it as there are no search or analysis tools to find stuff like runts or glitches in memory.
QuoteBut the sad reality is that you can't do a lot with it as there are no search or analysis tools to find stuff like runts or glitches in memory.That may be the case if you do a single acquisition and fill the 140Mpts of memory. However, if you use the segmented memory feature and fill that 140Mpts of memory with, for example, ~32000 frames each 14kpts long then you can use analyze mode (yes the scope has one) to compare each frame to either a reference waveform (and you can set a threshold for how much it's allowed to deviate) or a pass/fail mask. The scope will then do the analysis and flag all frames considered to be in error and you can jump back and forth between them as you wish.
some low end monochrome crappy 1Gsps DPOs for almost free (the list proce is 2.8K each, which I believe no one will buy it nowadays
You'd be surprised
Two examples cases I can immediately think of:
o on an existing active production line, the cost of re-developing test processes to use a new scope would easily outstrip the 2.8k price;
o in education, an entire course may well have been engineered a few years ago around a particular scope, the cost and time to produce a new course and re-equip a lab will be far more than picking up a replacement or odd additional scope.
Technology and bang for buck has improved no end in that time, I'd be nuts to want to replace it with the same again in my one-man-band lab for the same cost. While it is a bit of a dinosaur these days, one thing that can be said for it though is that it doesn't have any bugs!
Plus this only works on repetitive signals, and for those on other scopes I'd just setup mask test and histogram in real-time.
It's funny because when a "A-brand" scope is "criticised" for not having long memory the "A-brand people" says it doesn't need it because one can just set up a trigger to capture that runt pulse (or glitch or whatever) anyway. Now when a B-brand scope does have long memory IT can't be used to capture that runt pulse (or glitch or whatever) because there is no (not enough or the correct) search/analysis/navigation tools....
QuotePlus this only works on repetitive signals, and for those on other scopes I'd just setup mask test and histogram in real-time.I don't understand, if the signal isn't repetitive how well does the mask testing work on those other scopes?
Second, you're right, a proper set of triggers and analysis tools helps a lot of capturing a problem, and it does so in real-time. But the DS6000 has nothing of that sort, all it has is a very large sample memory.
Could you clarify what these proper triggers are that all the "A-brand" scopes have but that are missing from the DS6000? Some specifics should help understanding this better.
Well, examples for basic triggers would be Runt Trigger (captures meta-stable pulses, i.e. pulses with reduced amplitude, most scopes can also combine it with a time condition), Timeout trigger (absent pulses), Sequence Trigger (A/B Trigger, armes after one condition and triggers at another, different condition). Especially the first two are pretty useful.
Not sure what makes you think a repair agreement for a $3600 device is $1.1k (which would be ludicrous)
3yr repair agreement for roughly 1/3rd of the price of a new one in basic config
Because, as an engineer, I am well aware that any piece of complex electronics can fail,
I deal with a lot of test equipment as part of my job(...)
Not sure what makes you think a repair agreement for a $3600 device is $1.1k (which would be ludicrous)Well, it was from your own post:3yr repair agreement for roughly 1/3rd of the price of a new one in basic configI got the price of a new one and divided by three...
That said, the amounts you mentioned are much more reasonable, but contingent to a reasonably priced and well maintained used equipment from eBay
I still think the price/performance ratio of the clearance center is very compelling for hobbyists/enthusiasts, also due to the number of bugs already fixed in the latest firmware releases (for example, one of the bug lists for DS4000 in this forum is mostly outdated). If anything, it shows they are listening and improving step by step - obviously I am a newcomer as my DS4014 is two months old, but others such as Dr. Diesel suffered longer with the existing bugs and are clearly more frustrated with it.
Rigol is a relative newcomer to the market and it is fighting on price, even in mid range models - otherwise, I suspect the A-brands wouldn't be so generous with their free upgrades and discounted bundles. In my opinion, Rigol (and other B-brands) are putting a lot of pressure to materialize all this generosity, only lacking time and resources to reach the level of expertise of the A-brands (which will still take some time if they are running a low profit operation).
Plus it seems that the higher bandwidth models of the DS4000 suffer from some stability issues for which Rigol so far has been unable to find the root cause (apparently it's some hardware problem, not a firmware issue).
Plus it seems that the higher bandwidth models of the DS4000 suffer from some stability issues for which Rigol so far has been unable to find the root cause (apparently it's some hardware problem, not a firmware issue).
Could you elaborate on the stability issues on the high bandwidth models, I hadn't heard that before.
QuotePlus it seems that the higher bandwidth models of the DS4000 suffer from some stability issues for which Rigol so far has been unable to find the root cause (apparently it's some hardware problem, not a firmware issue).
Could you elaborate on the stability issues on the high bandwidth models, I hadn't heard that before.
Wuerstchenhund, what is your source for this information?
Actually what I said was (..)
As to price, unless you want something really special/rare then there are often deals to be had. Keysight's ebay store is always a good start.
It's great that Rigol has fixed many of the bugs in the DS4000, but frankly the scope should have never been brought to market with that number of bugs in the first place.
I'm sorry but even when leaving brand reputation, support, firmware bugs etc aside, there isn't much which would sway me to buy a Rigol instead of an A-brand, neither in features nor in (retail) price.
I would agree with you 100% if we were talking about low-end/entry-level scopes, but I honestly can't see how Rigol would be putting pressure on the mid-range class with scopes that are inferior in terms of performance and features while costing almost the same as their a-brand competitors. Even less so when also considering that, while a lot of entry level scopes are bought by hobbyists, mid-range scopes are generally bought by businesses where vendor support and reputation play a much bigger role (and any price advantage that Rigol may have in the retail market is essentially void).
But at the end of the day I guess it comes down price and expectations, and I guess if the price is sufficiently low (and I mean really low!) and you're fine with a basic scope (and can live with the bugs and the basic support) then a DS6000 might be worth considering.
Hahaha! Funny how two people can read the same sentence and have completely different understandings...
Apart from one offer I saw a while ago, I am still to find another really competitive offer from Keysight's eBay store for hobbyist/enthusiast level oscilloscopes. But that may be just me...
No contest there. Despite I still think Rigol's struggle with firmware is understandable from a newcomer perspective, I don't think it should have been released with so many issues from the get go.
It is hard to dissociate brand from overall quality perception, but I would not probably be swayed either by price alone if I had my rear end on the line (nobody is fired for buying IBM). However, one point that A-brands should be concerned is that, as people use Rigol's gear as hobbyists, they start to get comfortable with its quirks and interface. If Rigol survives long enough in this marketplace, there is a strong chance they will eat the market from the ground up.
In hindsight, I think my comments were swayed by the price I got for my DS4104 (US$1.6k with new 500MHz passive probes), which was pretty difficult to match with eBay's offers of newer generation oscilloscopes from the A-brands (yes, I did a large search as I mentioned here). Closer to US$3k the search can be widely expanded.
We too have bought a DS6104. The price/performance ratio of it hasn't been beaten.
Overall, I like it. With two adc's we can run two channels on 5GSa/s or 4 channels on 2.5GSa/s.
Firmware is always a weak spot with Rigol. With the default fw version 00.01.04 it's impossible to use it via LAN.
The scope freezes completely. Via USB it works apart from that it's not possible to download the deep memory waveform data.
I reported the bugs three months ago and a couple of days ago we received a newer firmware (00.02.00.SP5) that solved the issue with the memory downloading
and the freezing of the scope when using LAN but as always it introduced a new bug.
When using LAN to poll for parameters and values, the scope sometimes responds with "command error" instead of the requested value.
Still, USB connection works fine.
Well, DS6102 has only one ADC, so it must operate at 2.5Gsps at 2 channels. Anyway it doesn't matter to me because I will be using ETS.
The firmware was upgraded to the latest before shipping, according to their sales team.
I will see if I can discover more bugs, and include them in the review as well.
Whatever you do, don't hold onto it thinking they'll fix it someday because you never know if that will happen. Good luck.