Ever wondered just safe electric cars are, like Tesla for instance.

[Siwastaja]

Anddd, you can drop a lit match on a buck of gas-oil and it won't burst into flames.

You can also drop a lit match on a battery pack and it won't burst into flames.

See how helpful this is?

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

But you can't extinguish a li-ion fire with some foam+CO2.

[bd139]

Have you seen a car burn before? Once the plastics and tyres have gone up its game over whatever the fuel tech.

Electric cars give you exit time.

Let’s not forget the transport hazards of the fuel in the first place:

https://youtu.be/EeZNh7VWdAo

[2N3055]

Have you seen a car burn before? Once the plastics and tyres have gone up its game over whatever the fuel tech.

Electric cars give you exit time.

Let’s not forget the transport hazards of the fuel in the first place:

https://youtu.be/EeZNh7VWdAo

Trust me, that wasn't only gasoline explosion.. The hole in the bridge and type of explosion point to something else in there...

[SeanB]

I have seen a car go from running to burning pool of fire in the time it took me to get the fire brigade to answer the call. He also did not have a full tank of fuel, as the puddle of burning fuel was only around 1m at most from the vehicle.

Here you should get a free pack of marshmallows and some skewers with a Ford Kuga or Escape, as there have been that many that caught fire. Joke is Fire On Road Daily as the meaning of the name. Batteries catching fire and fuel burning, not much difference in the energy output, as the rest of the vehicle is plastic that very readily burns.

[Specmaster]

Have you seen a car burn before? Once the plastics and tyres have gone up its game over whatever the fuel tech.

Electric cars give you exit time.

Let’s not forget the transport hazards of the fuel in the first place:

https://youtu.be/EeZNh7VWdAo

Except when the car has a fibre glass body, then its game over when only the chassis or running gear is left.

The safest form of fuel in use is of course diesel but it has other side effects such as particulates which are harmful, having said that I did my apprenticeship working in a bus garage of over 100 buses and a cold morning all of those buses allocated to be the first ones out on their routes would have to be started and left idling in the garage to warm up the interiors before being driven round to the external stands for fare paying passengers to board. On those days you could not see across the garage , it is chock a block full of smoke and made your eyes sting and stream and breathing difficult. I had 8 years of that when I worked there, and on top of that every Thursday, the entire garage floor had to be washed down with caustic soda crystals and a hosepipe and electric powered floor sweeper / scrubber and that meant that every bus had to be started and moved around in order to wash the floor. The only ones exempt from being moved were those over the pits for servicing which meant a maximum of just 6 buses didn't get moved. So I worked in that heavily polluted atmosphere for 8 years and I'm still here OK (I think the dangers of diesel are grossly over exaggerated for some reason or other, might even be political).

Truth is that all forms of energy carry elements of risk and that risk is proportional to the amount of energy being stored in a confined space, and that in essence is the point of a bomb, lots of energy trying to break free of its confines at the same time.

[wraper]

Except when the car has a fibre glass body, then its game over when only the chassis or running gear is left.

As if you would care how much is left if it's irreparably damaged. BTW Teslas are made from metal. X ans S use aluminium with steel reinforcement, Model 3 mostly steel.

So I worked in that heavily polluted atmosphere for 8 years and I'm still here OK

Anecdotal evidence. If 10% of workers will get cancer in next 40 years because of this and you are not among them, does not mean it was safe or there was no damage to your health. BTW it could be that parents don't have any apparent illnesses but their children might be born with deficiencies, especially brain damage.
BTW you might be not so smart as you could be https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/2018/09/news-air-quality-brain-cognitive-function/

[Specmaster]

Except when the car has a fibre glass body, then its game over when only the chassis or running gear is left.

As if you would care how much is left if it's irreparably damaged. BTW Teslas are made from metal. X ans S use aluminium with steel reinforcement, Model 3 mostly steel.

I was not referring to Tesla cars, but vehicles in general, many are made with not only fibreglass but also carbon fibre bodies and what is left behind when of those catches fire?

So I worked in that heavily polluted atmosphere for 8 years and I'm still here OK

Anecdotal evidence. If 10% of workers will get cancer in next 40 years because of this and you are not among them, does not mean it was safe or there was no damage to your health. BTW it could be that parents don't have any apparent illnesses but their children might be born with deficiencies, especially brain damage.
BTW you might be not so smart as you could be https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/2018/09/news-air-quality-brain-cognitive-function/

Is it any the less true for gasoline cars?

[NiHaoMike]

But you can't extinguish a li-ion fire with some foam+CO2.

Last I checked, water is what Tesla recommends for extinguishing a battery fire but doesn't work on oil fires. You might have a good argument for ethanol which can be extinguished with water, but current ethanol production leaves much to be desired...

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Gasoline is much much worse/dangerous than gas-oil.

[Specmaster]

Gasoline is much much worse/dangerous than gas-oil.

Thanks GeorgeOfTheJungle, that was what I thought, and my original statement is true, that all fuels carry risks and it's a matter of managing those risks.

Nothing comes close to the sheer convenience of gasoline and gas-oil in terms of ease of replenishing the fuel on a journey, pull into a fuel station, stick a nozzle into the tank, squeeze the trigger, fill up the tank again, pay and be on your way again in a very short period of time, often less than 5 minutes, try that with electric vehicles.

The nearest to that is where you use a fossil fueled engine to run a generator which drives the electric motors.

[NiHaoMike]

Nothing comes close to the sheer convenience of gasoline and gas-oil in terms of ease of replenishing the fuel on a journey, pull into a fuel station, stick a nozzle into the tank, squeeze the trigger, fill up the tank again, pay and be on your way again in a very short period of time, often less than 5 minutes, try that with electric vehicles.

The nearest to that is where you use a fossil fueled engine to run a generator which drives the electric motors.

You forgot about biofuels which are an already practical approach for renewable energy in transportation. And hydrogen although fuel cells aren't quite that affordable yet.

[Specmaster]

Nothing comes close to the sheer convenience of gasoline and gas-oil in terms of ease of replenishing the fuel on a journey, pull into a fuel station, stick a nozzle into the tank, squeeze the trigger, fill up the tank again, pay and be on your way again in a very short period of time, often less than 5 minutes, try that with electric vehicles.

The nearest to that is where you use a fossil fueled engine to run a generator which drives the electric motors.

You forgot about biofuels which are an already practical approach for renewable energy in transportation. And hydrogen although fuel cells aren't quite that affordable yet.

Biofuels still are not freely available in enough volume to make the switch over a viable proposition, much the same with hydrogen. If biofuels become more accessible, where do we grow food, it is reported that the world is getting to the point that it is becoming difficult to grow enough food to feed everyone.

[bd139]

We can feed everyone fine. Just the food is in the wrong places. This has its own problems.

[NiHaoMike]

If biofuels become more accessible, where do we grow food, it is reported that the world is getting to the point that it is becoming difficult to grow enough food to feed everyone.

Make biofuels from weeds that grow everywhere and there will be no competition with growing food. And the biggest problem with current food production is "factory farming" that's very inefficient if all the land required is accounted for, but that's another discussion...

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Well, yes and no, there's not many fish left in, say, the Bay of Biscay... google for example "sardine population decline". An ever bigger % of the fish we consume comes from fish farms, IIANM. That says something.

[fsr]

Oh, i see. Water to put out electric fires. That's unexpected, but it's what's been recommended:

Firefighting

USE WATER TO FIGHT A HIGH VOLTAGE BATTERY FIRE. If the battery catches fire, is exposed to high heat, or is generating heat or gases, use large amounts of water to cool the battery. It can take approximately 3,000 gallons of water (applied directly to the battery); establish sufficient water supply.
Extinguish small fires not involving the battery using typical vehicle firefighting procedures.
Always use insulated tools for overhaul.
Heat and flames can compromise some components, resulting in an unexpected explosion. Perform an adequate knock down before entering a hot zone.
There must not be fire, smoke, or heating present in the battery for at least one hour (consider using a thermal imaging camera to measure the temperature) and the battery must be completely cooled before the vehicle can be released to second responders. Always advise second responders that there is a risk of battery re-ignition.

https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/2016_Model_X_Emergency_Response_Sheet_en.pdf

I suppose there's no way around it, as the shorted battery pack will continue to conduct and heat until it's fully discharged, so it's preferable to use water. If completely flooded, it would be like throwing every individual cell in water, right?

On the other hand, gasoline is clearly not safer, as the vapours are what catch fire. Any ignition source will ignite the whole cloud of vapours, and create a big fireball, depending on conditions like the amount of wind.

I once used kerosene to set some branches on fire, and i just poured like 300 ml of it, at most, and after less than a minute i thown a match from a distance. Just let me say that it was a good idea to leave some distance... I searched on flammability of this thing, and it seems to be very near that of gasoil. And better not try this on gasoline, as it's a lot more flammable. The "flash point" seems to be what determines this. The lower, the more flammable:

Diesel (2-D)     52 °C
Kerosene         38 to 72 °C
Gasoline          −43 °C !!!

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

The problem with gasoline is that gasoline vapours aren't flammable but explosive!

[coppice]

The problem with gasoline is that gasoline vapours aren't flammable but explosive!

Like most vapours (or powders like flour for that matter) gasoline is flammable or explosive depending how the vapour and air are mixed.

[nctnico]

Nothing comes close to the sheer convenience of gasoline and gas-oil in terms of ease of replenishing the fuel on a journey, pull into a fuel station, stick a nozzle into the tank, squeeze the trigger, fill up the tank again, pay and be on your way again in a very short period of time, often less than 5 minutes, try that with electric vehicles.

The nearest to that is where you use a fossil fueled engine to run a generator which drives the electric motors.

You forgot about biofuels which are an already practical approach for renewable energy in transportation. And hydrogen although fuel cells aren't quite that affordable yet.

Biofuels still are not freely available in enough volume to make the switch over a viable proposition, much the same with hydrogen. If biofuels become more accessible, where do we grow food, it is reported that the world is getting to the point that it is becoming difficult to grow enough food to feed everyone.

The 3rd generation bio-fuels solve that problem nicely. Instead of making these from seeds these are made from the parts of the plant we don't eat. win-win (food gets cheaper and we have fuel). In the USA there are several factories up & running already so it is not a laboratory experiment. There is a lot agricultural and generic plant material available. According to the numbers of POET-DSM regarding yield per surface area it should be possible to replace fossil fuels altogether. And one of the nice things about bio-fuels is that these don't need an investment in infrastructure and the change can be made gradually by adding more bio-fuels to fossil fuels.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

The problem with gasoline is that gasoline vapours aren't flammable but explosive!

Like most vapours (or powders like flour for that matter) gasoline is flammable or explosive depending how the vapour and air are mixed.

Of course. But at NTP a gasoline tank when ignited is (almost 100% sure) going to explode, unlike a diesel tank which won't.

[Nauris]

I once used kerosene to set some branches on fire, and i just poured like 300 ml of it, at most, and after less than a minute i thown a match from a distance. Just let me say that it was a good idea to leave some distance...

There is that wisdom that you should only add gasoline to fire and never fire to gasoline... It is like mixing acid and water, do it the wrong way and it comes and bites you!

But anyway gasoline burns so fast, it is not good for setting pile of wet branches on fire. Used motor oil or diesel is way better in my opinion.

[coppice]

The problem with gasoline is that gasoline vapours aren't flammable but explosive!

Like most vapours (or powders like flour for that matter) gasoline is flammable or explosive depending how the vapour and air are mixed.

Of course. But at NTP a gasoline tank when ignited is (almost 100% sure) going to explode, unlike a diesel tank which won't.

I think you've watched too many action movies.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

I think you've watched too many action movies.

Or played too much with gasoline when I was a child :-) If you want to try:

1) Put an inch (*) or so of gasoline into an empty 5 litres oil can
2) Leave it alone for 5..10 minutes
3) Drop a lit match inside...
4) BOUMMMM

(don't do it)

Do the same with gas-oil and nothing, nada, niente.

(*) Maybe an inch is too much. Two or 3 mm is enough.

[bd139]

Csn confirm. Have done it. This always makes me laugh (works with petrol)

https://youtu.be/_RNUT7b60oU