Hacking the Rigol MSO5000 series oscilloscopes

[el314]

Hello BTO!
Thank you for your care and attention.
I'm trying to go through everything you explained and I have a problem just right away.

In the PDF it's said:
USE THE VERSION THAT CORRESPONDS TO YOUR SCOPES CURRENT FIRMWARE VERSION
But this method doesn't have my version, 00.01.03.00.03
And it doesn't explain how one should act if he has a version different from the ones in the archive. Only two options are available:
1.3.2.2
and
1.3.3.0

[exider]

Hello BTO!
Thank you for your care and attention.
I'm trying to go through everything you explained and I have a problem just right away.

In the PDF it's said:
USE THE VERSION THAT CORRESPONDS TO YOUR SCOPES CURRENT FIRMWARE VERSION
But this method doesn't have my version, 00.01.03.00.03
And it doesn't explain how one should act if he has a version different from the ones in the archive. Only two options are available:
1.3.2.2
and
1.3.3.0

Just upgrate to 1.3.3.0 before running the script. The firmware is in the link BTO posted ... https://mega.nz/folder/A8cEgQRI#5FSoMrCurJi71T7VkRPgYQ

Edited: There is a video there that explains the process.

[exider]

I was wondering today if, after upgrading to 500 MHz, I need faster probes as well? 500Mhz Ones? 

[BTO]

Hello BTO!
Thank you for your care and attention.
I'm trying to go through everything you explained and I have a problem just right away.

In the PDF it's said:
USE THE VERSION THAT CORRESPONDS TO YOUR SCOPES CURRENT FIRMWARE VERSION
But this method doesn't have my version, 00.01.03.00.03
And it doesn't explain how one should act if he has a version different from the ones in the archive. Only two options are available:
1.3.2.2
and
1.3.3.0

No problem, well, i do actually have 1.3.0.3 , However that's a very old version. i have firmware versions much lower than that as well.
What i suggest you do first is this...

DOWNLOAD 1.3.3.0
UPGRADE TO 1.3.3.0

Then follow the PDF instructions anyway.

What version you started on was relevant when we were patching the scope.  it's no longer relevant.
it's only relevant when you're doing backups.

so just upgrade and then try again and let me know how you go.

[BTO]

Hello BTO!
Thank you for your care and attention.
I'm trying to go through everything you explained and I have a problem just right away.

In the PDF it's said:
USE THE VERSION THAT CORRESPONDS TO YOUR SCOPES CURRENT FIRMWARE VERSION
But this method doesn't have my version, 00.01.03.00.03
And it doesn't explain how one should act if he has a version different from the ones in the archive. Only two options are available:
1.3.2.2
and
1.3.3.0

Just upgrate to 1.3.3.0 before running the script. The firmware is in the link BTO posted ... https://mega.nz/folder/A8cEgQRI#5FSoMrCurJi71T7VkRPgYQ

Edited: There is a video there that explains the process.

EXACTLY

[BTO]

I was wondering today if, after upgrading to 500 MHz, I need faster probes as well? 500Mhz Ones? 

Yes you do... They need to be.........
SYSTEMATIC
HYDROMATIC
ULTRAMATIC
WHY.. THEY NEED TO BE GREASED LIGHTNING

 

No. You don't need new probes,   at least, i don't think so

[6SN7WGTB]

OK, I now have a much bigger problem.

The 'scope is now back to a random BW (it was a 5104). -3dB is around 230MHz. When I first applied the changes it indeed was >500MHz.

The ABOUT still reports BW 350MHz, and labels on channels still say same. OPTION LIST shows BW1T3 still as 'forever'.

What might have happened?

EDIT: done YET another SelfCal and now -3dB back to 620MHz. Go figure...

The Official Industry term is
SCOPE HAD A BRAINFART

OK, I now have a much bigger problem.

Everything is a Much Bigger Problem until we get to ....
"Ohh it's ok don't worry it's all good now"   

When these things happen you can do a few things, in this order

- Restart your scope at least 2 times.

- Self Cal
- Self Test (it may or may not reveal issues)

- Enter start up menu and select FACTORY DEFAULT

- Firmware Downgrade to 1.3.2.2  then upgrade to 1.3.3.0 again

Between all that i'm pretty sure you should fix it
if all else fails, Run the Python script again

If not... Yell Bloody Murder and come back here and we'll all pitch in for a new scope   

Splendid, knew I could rely on you guys...!

Yep, agree must have been some sort of glitch. Anyway, First World problem in all regards. Thanks for your continued support.

[BTO]

OK, I now have a much bigger problem.

The 'scope is now back to a random BW (it was a 5104). -3dB is around 230MHz. When I first applied the changes it indeed was >500MHz.

The ABOUT still reports BW 350MHz, and labels on channels still say same. OPTION LIST shows BW1T3 still as 'forever'.

What might have happened?

EDIT: done YET another SelfCal and now -3dB back to 620MHz. Go figure...

Splendid, knew I could rely on you guys...!

Yep, agree must have been some sort of glitch. Anyway, First World problem in all regards. Thanks for your continued support.

Yes you can, no problem. You're Welcome. That's what the community is here for.

[Odd-Job]

Looks to me from your 'Pictures' that you BW issue might be from your probe being on 1X , would explain weird roll off notch filtering.
Try it again with probes 10X  and maybe do a 100kHZ to 25MHZ Sweep and post images back.
If nothing else,it will show where your sig gen is playing silly fuggers.

[Odd-Job]

I was wondering today if, after upgrading to 500 MHz, I need faster probes as well? 500Mhz Ones? 

Yes you do... They need to be.........
SYSTEMATIC
HYDROMATIC
ULTRAMATIC
WHY.. THEY NEED TO BE GREASED LIGHTNING

 

No. You don't need new probes,   at least, i don't think so

Well yes, you will need new probes if you wish to use the instrument to it current or new capacity. Check the stock probe specs; https://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-0750/1/-/-/-/-/PVP2350.pdf  as you can see they are not very good (approx 100V RMS) even @ 1 Mhz let alone 350 and you wanna push them to > 350 Megs and get accurate reliable data?  Get ready to spend $$$ on some even mid range aftermarket probes. You would be better using coax with  clips or a purpose built probe + chassis connector, and setting input to 50 Ω. Bandwidth comes at a cost, voltage de-rating, RF effects etc.
Here is a Oscilloscope Probe, Passive, 500 MHz, 300 V, 10:1 A$1428.00   https://au.element14.com/tektronix/p6139b/probe-passive-500mhz/dp/1863351

Or , my choice 'cause I'm a poor  tech and they do what I need .

Tools, equipment are priced according to use's . Are you ever gonna need 500 Meg, or even know how, when, where to use it?
Edited, thanks for pointing out the Element 14 pricing mistakes.

Over.

[Kean]

Well yes, you will need new probes if you wish to use the instrument to it current or new capacity. Check the stock probe specs; https://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-0750/1/-/-/-/-/PVP2350.pdf  as you can see they are not very good (approx 100V RMS) even @ 1 Mhz let alone 350 and you wanna push them to > 350 Megs and get accurate reliable data?  Get ready to spend $$$ on some even mid range aftermarket probes. You would be better using coax with  clips or a purpose built probe + chassis connector, and setting input to 50 Ω. Bandwidth comes at a cost, voltage derating RF effects etc.
Here is a Oscilloscope Probe, Passive, 500 MHz, 300 V, 10:1,  over A$13,000.00 https://au.element14.com/tektronix/p6139b-pk10-au/osc-probe-passive-500mhz-300v/dp/4408844 . Or a A$1400.00 one (my choice 'cause I'm a poor  tech) https://au.element14.com/tektronix/p6139b-pk10-au/osc-probe-passive-500mhz-300v/dp/4408844.

Tools, equipment are priced according to use's . Are you ever gonna need 500 Meg, or even know how, when, where to use it?

Over.

I feel that is a bit misleading.

First, no passive probe will be able to handle the full specified voltage at the rated bandwidth.  They will all have a voltage derating curve - you may have to dig a little to find it in the docs.

Second, those E14 links (same link pasted twice) are for a pack of 10 probes (the second link was maybe meant to be single pack?).  The price on Element 14 is inflated from typical list price, and you can find them significantly cheaper elsewhere (but still not cheap as they are Tek branded).

Third, you generally want a probe and scope with a much higher bandwidth than the highest frequency you are measuring (unless you are only looking at sine waves).

Fourth, as you mentioned, at these higher frequencies you would use coax or a Z0 probe with 50 ohm input.  This is something the MSO5000 lacks, and using a cheap 50 ohm pass-through terminator at these frequencies will probably spoil your day.

[Odd-Job]

Well, a probe rated at 350 Mhz is -3dB. Most (all) BW rating/ specifications are at or implied @ the -3dB point.
The stock PVP2350 probes that come with the rigol MSO5XXX are already down to approx 10 Vrms @ 10Mhz and Impedance at its -3db is about 300 Ohms.
So I agree Kean that if you want to go above 500 Megthen buy a 1 Gig probe, Si price about 2K Au .

[BTO]

Looks to me from your 'Pictures' that you BW issue might be from your probe being on 1X , would explain weird roll off notch filtering.
Try it again with probes 10X  and maybe do a 100kHZ to 25MHZ Sweep and post images back.
If nothing else,it will show where your sig gen is playing silly fuggers.

My probes are not  ON  1x
The channel Attenuation is set to 1x as i'm using an RG-6 Coaxial Cable from the SigGen to the Scope Channel.  Hence this is the correct setting to use.
I'm not using probes, I'm using a properly terminated cable

[Kean]

I'm not using probes, I'm using a properly terminated cable

Out of interest, what 50 ohm feed trough terminator are you using?
I have some of the cheap P57 ones off ebay.  If I recall correctly, when I tested them some were better than others.  I wouldn't dream of trying to use them beyond about 200MHz.
I rarely measure anything that high on my RTB2004 (300MHz) or MSO5074 (350MHz), but I am planning to order a Radiall R405005000 which is specified to 1GHz.

I have some 2.5GHz Agilent active probes I have used with my spectrum analyser, which I've been meaning to try on the scope to compare readings (requires a N to BNC adapter plus probe power).

[6SN7WGTB]

I'm not using probes, I'm using a properly terminated cable

Out of interest, what 50 ohm feed trough terminator are you using?
I have some of the cheap P57 ones off ebay.  If I recall correctly, when I tested them some were better than others.  I wouldn't dream of trying to use them beyond about 200MHz.

FWIW, when I tested my -3dB BW (which went to 600MHz), I used an RS Pro 50Ω pass-through, which they say is 'only' good to 0.5GHz, and a cable rated to 1.5GHz. The 'scope appeared 1.4dB down at 500MHz, but I clearly cannot apportion the loss to which bit.

[Kean]

FWIW, when I tested my -3dB BW (which went to 600MHz), I used an RS Pro 50Ω pass-through, which they say is 'only' good to 0.5GHz, and a cable rated to 1.5GHz. The 'scope appeared 1.4dB down at 500MHz, but I clearly cannot apportion the loss to which bit.

Thanks.  I'm guessing RS P/N 546-4695.  That is half the price of the Radiall one.  Although it is a lower spec, it suits my needs and should perform a lot better than the P57's.   I have some things to order from RS and it is in stock in the local RS warehouse, so I might get that one for now.  From the datasheet photos, neither RS or Radiall parts are labelled.

[6SN7WGTB]

Thanks.  I'm guessing RS P/N 546-4695.  That is half the price of the Radiall one.  Although it is a lower spec, it suits my needs and should perform a lot better than the P57's.   I have some things to order from RS and it is in stock in the local RS warehouse, so I might get that one for now.  From the datasheet photos, neither RS or Radiall parts are labelled.

Correct re P/N. The BNC ring is stamped "2W 50Ω" and it's "Made in Taiwan" if that's any use in establishing who makes it.

[BTO]

I'm not using probes, I'm using a properly terminated cable

Out of interest, what 50 ohm feed trough terminator are you using?
I have some of the cheap P57 ones off ebay.  If I recall correctly, when I tested them some were better than others.  I wouldn't dream of trying to use them beyond about 200MHz.
I rarely measure anything that high on my RTB2004 (300MHz) or MSO5074 (350MHz), but I am planning to order a Radiall R405005000 which is specified to 1GHz.

I have some 2.5GHz Agilent active probes I have used with my spectrum analyser, which I've been meaning to try on the scope to compare readings (requires a N to BNC adapter plus probe power).

Out of interest, what 50 ohm feed trough terminator are you using?

Actually now that you mention it, i'm not using any sort of Balun, I suppose in light of what you said, i could use an RG-59 Cable terminated, instead of the
RG-6 Quad Shield that i've been used, pretty much because it's readily available to me.

I suppose over all these years we really haven't gone into the >400MHz territory and as such these things haven't been a consideration.
I suppose now they are . Good Point

[Kean]

Actually now that you mention it, i'm not using any sort of Balun, I suppose in light of what you said, i could use an RG-59 Cable terminated, instead of the
RG-6 Quad Shield that i've been used, pretty much because it's readily available to me.

You said you had a properly terminated cable.   
That would be terminating the 50 ohm output impedance of the signal generator with a 50 ohm feed through terminator at the scope input (as the MSO5000 only have 1M ohm inputs).

RG59 and RG6 are 75 ohm coax typically used for cable TV, not 50 ohm.   

No idea why you are mentioning a balun.  Where is the balanced to unbalanced conversion needed?

[6SN7WGTB]

No idea why you are mentioning a balun.  Where is the balanced to unbalanced conversion needed?

An unterminated coax is technically unbalanced is it not?

[Kean]

An unterminated coax is technically unbalanced is it not?

Sure.  But where does using a balun come into connecting sig gen to scope via coax.  Am I missing something?

[6SN7WGTB]

An unterminated coax is technically unbalanced is it not?

Sure.  But where does using a balun come into connecting sig gen to scope via coax.  Am I missing something?

Maybe it's just BTO's way of referring to the 50Ω through termination as a balun...  Given the 'scope doesn't have internal 50Ω option.

[BTO]

Actually now that you mention it, i'm not using any sort of Balun, I suppose in light of what you said, i could use an RG-59 Cable terminated, instead of the
RG-6 Quad Shield that i've been used, pretty much because it's readily available to me.

You said you had a properly terminated cable.   
That would be terminating the 50 ohm output impedance of the signal generator with a 50 ohm feed through terminator at the scope input (as the MSO5000 only have 1M ohm inputs).

RG59 and RG6 are 75 ohm coax typically used for cable TV, not 50 ohm.   

No idea why you are mentioning a balun.  Where is the balanced to unbalanced conversion needed?

Seriously ?
Do you really want me to address this ?   (think before you answer)

I work in Telecommunications , Been doing it for decades.
I have had no problem with you thus far
And all of a sudden you want to do this .

I'M GOING TO GIVE YOU AN OPPORTUNITY TO RECTIFY YOUR COMMENT AND ATTITUDE
As i see it as being the fairest option and the one that the moderators would most agree with .

Comments like yours are not productive

and food for thought
"A Properly Terminated Cable"  MEANS  "A Properly Terminated Cable"
it does not mean whatever meaning you decide to assign to it in the next line just because it suits your purpose

Now... Do you want this comments section to go downhill and in turn mods get involved and in turn they start handing our suspensions

or.. Would you like to approach this in a more civil way ?
Make a choice mate

At the end of the day, if we take a step back,  You asked a question,  I answered that question.
I could have lied to you and pretended ,  I CHOSE NOT TO

Now, you will notice that i haven't responded quickly.  that's because i've been taking your advice and doing things in the background.
I would imagine a degree of appreciation is in order for my effort

BUT BEFORE ANYTHING COMES COURTESY, MANNERS AND RESPECT.
This isn't you tube, we are no uneducated idiots and so simple minded that we throw meaningless insults at each other

THIS IS WHY I AM AFFORDING YOU THE OPPORTUNITY TO CHANGE HOW YOU'RE APPROACHING THIS SUBJECT

I await your response

PS : some advice... you do not want me to address those points,   Take a step back, Apologize and re ask and we'll move forward with no bad blood.
but this comment is unacceptable

[BTO]

No idea why you are mentioning a balun.  Where is the balanced to unbalanced conversion needed?

An unterminated coax is technically unbalanced is it not?

No No.. Just let him respond.   
Let me try and get this back on track... Give me a moment if you could

[BTO]

An unterminated coax is technically unbalanced is it not?

Sure.  But where does using a balun come into connecting sig gen to scope via coax.  Am I missing something?

Am I missing something?

YES... MANNERS AND RESPECT

Now, i await your response to that first post i made