Author Topic: Tesla & other EV's and hybrids are dangerous!  (Read 11565 times)

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Offline thm_w

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Re: Tesla & other EV's and hybrids are dangerous!
« Reply #125 on: April 08, 2026, 11:22:43 pm »
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Self-drive cars will reduce the number of accidents

Going by the complaints of modern cars swerving into oncoming traffic (auto lane follower or something), remove the human who is quickly righting things and there would be more accidents. And not just minor scratches.

"Auto lane follower" is not a self driving car, its a basic cruise control functionality.
Waymo has already been proven to be far safer than a human driver. Thinking that a human can "quickly right things" faster than a fully 360 degree aware autonomous driving system is absurd.

https://waymo.com/safety/impact/
https://storage.googleapis.com/waymo-uploads/files/documents/safety/Comparison%20of%20Waymo%20and%20Human-Driven%20Vehicles%20at%2025M%20miles.pdf
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Offline Halcyon

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Re: Tesla & other EV's and hybrids are dangerous!
« Reply #126 on: April 09, 2026, 12:26:56 am »
Quote
Self-drive cars will reduce the number of accidents

Going by the complaints of modern cars swerving into oncoming traffic (auto lane follower or something), remove the human who is quickly righting things and there would be more accidents. And not just minor scratches.

"Auto lane follower" is not a self driving car, its a basic cruise control functionality.
Waymo has already been proven to be far safer than a human driver. Thinking that a human can "quickly right things" faster than a fully 360 degree aware autonomous driving system is absurd.

https://waymo.com/safety/impact/
https://storage.googleapis.com/waymo-uploads/files/documents/safety/Comparison%20of%20Waymo%20and%20Human-Driven%20Vehicles%20at%2025M%20miles.pdf

I think you're right, this kind of technology will go towards supplementing the skills/attention gap for poor to average drivers, if implemented correctly. It shouldn't be a distraction.

However I have had cases in my own vehicle where I have intervened before the system did. Two systems (a human and a computer) are always better than just relying on one or the other.
 

Offline Psi

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Re: Tesla & other EV's and hybrids are dangerous!
« Reply #127 on: April 09, 2026, 12:33:40 am »
Quote
Self-drive cars will reduce the number of accidents

Going by the complaints of modern cars swerving into oncoming traffic (auto lane follower or something), remove the human who is quickly righting things and there would be more accidents. And not just minor scratches.

Auto lane following isn't AI self-drive.  There's really only Tesla and Waymo and doing it atm and it's early days.

The current Tesla self drive is pretty damn good. I'm pretty sure in a hypothetical experiment where you replaced all cars in an entire city with Tesla's on the latest self-drive version then the accidents would be either less or around the same.
Which, if I'm right, it's really encouraging considering AI self drive is only going to keep getting better.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2026, 12:42:07 am by Psi »
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Offline default0.0player

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Re: Tesla & other EV's and hybrids are dangerous!
« Reply #128 on: April 09, 2026, 03:45:01 am »
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Self-drive cars will reduce the number of accidents

Going by the complaints of modern cars swerving into oncoming traffic (auto lane follower or something), remove the human who is quickly righting things and there would be more accidents. And not just minor scratches.

Lane assist should only active when adaptive cruise control is on. Some crappy manufacturers make it on at all times. To make matters worse, they programmed it like auto-start-stop so the driver has to turn it off every time after starting the engine. Otherwise the car can steer into a bicycle or a semi truck and the driver must fight the steering wheel to keep the driving straight
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Tesla & other EV's and hybrids are dangerous!
« Reply #129 on: April 09, 2026, 06:30:54 am »
LKAS reduces accident rates, it doesn't increase them. 
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27624313/
https://aaafoundation.org/research/potential-reduction-in-crashes-injuries-and-deaths-from-large-scale-deployment-of-advanced-driver-assistance-systems/

Nonetheless, drivers don't like it. Depends how it's implemented. I've driven cars with good LKAS (like my ID.3) and poor LKAS (early VWs).
 
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Offline Psi

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Re: Tesla & other EV's and hybrids are dangerous!
« Reply #130 on: April 09, 2026, 07:14:53 am »
All new safety tech causes accidents/deaths, it's just that it saves more than it takes. Or it should do otherwise there's no point in it.

Airbags have killed many people, cough Takata cough. But damn will they have saved so many that would have died without it.
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Offline Psi

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Re: Tesla & other EV's and hybrids are dangerous!
« Reply #131 on: April 09, 2026, 07:17:07 am »
Nonetheless, drivers don't like it. Depends how it's implemented. I've driven cars with good LKAS (like my ID.3) and poor LKAS (early VWs).

How do you like your ID3. Would you recommend it?  I currently have a VW Golf MK6 Highline.
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Online Siwastaja

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Re: Tesla & other EV's and hybrids are dangerous!
« Reply #132 on: April 09, 2026, 07:28:54 am »
Nissan leaf regen and braking at low speeds is rough, I don't know what they are talking about. Maybe its superior in concept but in execution it just feels bad. https://www.speakev.com/threads/brake-pedal-goes-to-the-floor.14149/

That's just a broken car, e.g. air in the system, brake cylinder failure etc. Nothing to do with "rough regen".

The mechanical brake system has changed very little during last 50 years, and differences between cars are small. This is also why EV manufacturers don't want to put too much regen functionality into the brake pedal - it's hard to fine-tune exactly to interact in optimum way.
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: Tesla & other EV's and hybrids are dangerous!
« Reply #133 on: April 09, 2026, 07:32:26 am »
Nissan leaf regen and braking at low speeds is rough, I don't know what they are talking about. Maybe its superior in concept but in execution it just feels bad. https://www.speakev.com/threads/brake-pedal-goes-to-the-floor.14149/

That's just a broken car, e.g. air in the system, brake cylinder failure etc. Nothing to do with "rough regen".

The mechanical brake system has changed very little during last 50 years, and differences between cars are small. This is also why EV manufacturers don't want to put too much regen functionality into the brake pedal - it's hard to fine-tune exactly to interact in optimum way.

Same vehicle with premature battery failure due to ineffective cooling and expensive replacement costs. It's just a car you want to avoid.

https://autoexpert.com.au/posts/the-terrible-unexpected-cost-of-nissan-leaf-ownership
 
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Online Siwastaja

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Re: Tesla & other EV's and hybrids are dangerous!
« Reply #134 on: April 09, 2026, 07:43:06 am »
Nissan leaf regen and braking at low speeds is rough, I don't know what they are talking about. Maybe its superior in concept but in execution it just feels bad. https://www.speakev.com/threads/brake-pedal-goes-to-the-floor.14149/

That's just a broken car, e.g. air in the system, brake cylinder failure etc. Nothing to do with "rough regen".

The mechanical brake system has changed very little during last 50 years, and differences between cars are small. This is also why EV manufacturers don't want to put too much regen functionality into the brake pedal - it's hard to fine-tune exactly to interact in optimum way.

Same vehicle with premature battery failure due to ineffective cooling and expensive replacement costs. It's just a car you want to avoid.

https://autoexpert.com.au/posts/the-terrible-unexpected-cost-of-nissan-leaf-ownership

And yet, it's the car that kept winning every other car, all ICEs included, in German inspection statistics in least numbers of failures, over many years. Just keeps running, does not drain the battery by itself, boots in 1 second, does not need fixes during the warranty or after it (except the battery failure risk, which indeed is huge elephant in the room). It's possibly the only no-bullshit EV available.

... so that leaves the fact the battery thermal management is total crap, or as I think tom66 put it, made out of chocolate. And it fast charges slow. Even slower when cold or hot. And range diminishes in cold more than on other EVs. So, you have a risk of battery damage especially in warm climates. And Nissan trying to change their warranty policies avoiding the cost of battery replacements in borderline cases.

So yeah, it's crap. But they got one fundamentally important part right: otherwise it's a normal, reliable, well-designed car. Not EV, but car. I have had zero worries. It just keeps working reliably. Even the battery is fine, but that's thanks to colder climate.

What we needed was a normal, well-designed, affordable, reliable car, with decent EV technology. When comparing Tesla and Leaf in 2013 or so, I expected that would be available in 3-4 years. Still not available in 2026. You get silicon valley gimmicks, or you get established ICE manufacturers trying to act like silicon valley startups and doing silicon valley gimmicks. Large masses of people want neither. They want normal cars. They also don't want the old Leafs because they suck in a different way - they are bad EVs.

This is a huge market for the manufacturer who gets this right first, but it's also not an instant gratification, it's a long term game. Just like Toyota has a great reputation of doing reliable, normal cars people trust generation after generation. We need similar EV. Toyota would have been in a great position to do it, but they failed. Nissan got closest, but failed on the EV side. Tesla did great EV tech work but failed to do the "normal reliable car" part. That's to be expected, they are purposely disruptive. The real problem began when all the giants tried to mimic Tesla in everything.

No matter how much car journalists and car enthusiasts have to hate LEAF, it was the #1 best-selling EV surpassing Tesla for many years, and for very good reasons. As long as car manufacturers cannot take a good look into the mirror, and understand why many people, like myself, prefer to have Nissan LEAF, they will be also unable to do the EV transition. People will keep driving Toyota Corollas and Nissan Micras because that's what people want - not because of ICEs, but because of what kind of cars they are.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2026, 07:57:38 am by Siwastaja »
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: Tesla & other EV's and hybrids are dangerous!
« Reply #135 on: April 09, 2026, 08:17:48 am »
No matter how much car journalists and car enthusiasts have to hate LEAF, it was the #1 best-selling EV surpassing Tesla for many years, and for very good reasons.

Best selling doesn't mean good. Look at Microsoft Windows as a prime example.

I really have no other comments to make about the EV component of the vehicle, as I don't drive or own an EV. I have no intention in the foreseeable future to replace my petrol-driven vehicle with an EV. The economics (for me) just don't add up, even with today's fuel prices. The cost of insuring an EV compared to my current vehicle alone would blow any savings out of the water.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2026, 08:21:13 am by Halcyon »
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Tesla & other EV's and hybrids are dangerous!
« Reply #136 on: April 09, 2026, 06:32:28 pm »
Nonetheless, drivers don't like it. Depends how it's implemented. I've driven cars with good LKAS (like my ID.3) and poor LKAS (early VWs).

How do you like your ID3. Would you recommend it?  I currently have a VW Golf MK6 Highline.

Hmm... Probably wouldn't buy one again, but not because it is bad as such, just that there are better cars out there now for the money. 

Mechanically it's a solid car; 50,000 miles on it since I bought it (now at 83,000 miles) and no major issues. Charge port door did fail but this happens on the fuel-powered Golf too, and it can be DIYed for about £40, I paid a mechanic £180 to do it for me. Car still charges fine with this fault but you end up having to pop the door open with a trim tool as it doesn't pop open automatically anymore. 

Driving wise it is typically excellent as expected from VW; it's a fairly heavy car at 1800kg but you don't really feel that too much.  It takes corners nicely, suspension is comfortable, and with the 204 hp motor, it's decently fast for a family hatchback (0-60 in 7.5 seconds).  I wouldn't call it a hot hatch car, like a Golf GTI, but it keeps up with most things on the road. 

Software wise the car is not great, but newer software updates have improved a lot. The UI is laggy, probably explained in part by running lots of virtualisation layers (the base OS is some automotive RTOS, which then runs -three- Linux kernels inside individual VMs, each VM running some Java application, one of which uses a hypervisor to access the Snapdragon GPU... it's a bit insane and very typically German over-design).   I mostly use it with CarPlay; for which it works fine but takes about 10-15 seconds to connect when compared to my Polestar which literally connects as soon as you plug in the USB cable.   My car gets free data connectivity until 2033, which means preheating and charging control remotely shouldn't need a subscription.

The climate controls are awful on the first gen car.  They aren't lit up at night, and they're based on a touch sensor with no haptic feedback.  This makes it almost impossible to adjust the climate controls at night without looking.  This is improved in gen 2 (2023 onwards) as they light up, but the same slider design is used, which is still a bit crap.  It took me a year before I found out that two fingers on the climate setting turns on the heated seat; this is not marked on the controls anywhere.  The laggy UI means entering menus to change the climate setting is not a great experience.

The steering wheel controls are haptic too, but they work well because of the feedback mechanism (you feel a 'click' from an internal actuator, which is quite convincing); I think on balance probably better than physical buttons because they're easier to clean, but I don't mind too much either way.

There are also some annoying things missing that would have been good to include.  The car has a battery heater, which is used during charging and in very cold conditions, but pre-2023 models have no automatic battery preheating for rapid charging.  This means if you're driving in the winter you can get to a rapid charger and only get 40-50kW because the battery is cold.  Hot battery can do 130kW, this is the difference between a 45 minute stop and a 20 minute stop, and when other manufacturers have been doing this, it's pretty inexcusable IMO.  There is a workaround for this, where you can add a CAN bus injector to the drivetrain bus to send the preheating command.  But it should be a software option. 

There's no capability to tow or fit a roof rack, which was one of the things I gained with my Polestar 2.  You can fit a bike carrier on a towbar, but the car itself has zero tow rating.

Design wise it's a fairly polarising car; the outside looks are a bit ugly if I'm being honest. The rear looks better than the front, with the rear lights being fully LED and set against a black body panel. The packaging however is, again typically VW, excellent.  This is one of the things the mainstream automakers sometimes get really right. The ID.3 is barely bigger than my previous Golf Mk7, yet has about a foot more legroom in the rear and a larger cargo compartment. The turning circle is tighter than expected (10.2m,  the comparable Mk8 Golf is 11m), which makes for easier parallel parking and manuevering. The car's wheels are further forward than an ICE equivalent, due to the rear-wheel drive and tight packaging. The front seats put the legs of driver and passenger up almost to the wheel arches, because there is no engine and transmission to accommodate.  The car doesn't have a frunk like some EVs, but the large boot makes up for this.

Range is as expected and the car is quite efficient.  Can get 3.5 miles per kWh even driving fast, 4 miles per kWh is obtainable if you're careful.  In practical terms, this means a real world range from the 58kWh model of 180 miles in summer, 150 miles in winter.  My car is equipped with a heatpump which really helps in winter, adding around 10-15 miles of range.  However be aware the heatpump on ID.3 is based on CO2 refrigerant, and effectively very few garages are set up to accommodate this.  CO2 refrigerant is very high pressure - 60 bars typical.  However, no need to regas so far, and there is the argument that such a high pressure system could be more reliable because the components will need to have thicker internal walls, etc.  One fun side effect is the car has a CO2 cabin sensor in case of a leak, to warn the occupants to ventilate.

So er... in summary? Not a bad attempt, but 6/10 probably would not buy again.  The software alone put me off another VW group vehicle.  But I'm going to keep the ID.3 for many years, and I expect it will do well past the battery warranty. My car is 15,000 miles from the end of the battery warranty, and already out of general warranty, so we will see how reliable it ends up being. But so far reports online suggest they are very reliable cars with only odd "niggles" as faults go.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2026, 06:34:10 pm by tom66 »
 
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Online Siwastaja

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Re: Tesla & other EV's and hybrids are dangerous!
« Reply #137 on: April 09, 2026, 06:32:46 pm »
The cost of insuring an EV compared to my current vehicle alone would blow any savings out of the water.

And they cost a fortune to insure, because manufacturers purposely made them finicky and expensive to repair, so that farting near the car totals it.

As far as I know, over there you have huge amount of surplus PV production, to the point of it being a "problem", with zero value.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Tesla & other EV's and hybrids are dangerous!
« Reply #138 on: April 09, 2026, 06:35:13 pm »
The cost of insuring an EV compared to my current vehicle alone would blow any savings out of the water.

And they cost a fortune to insure, because manufacturers purposely made them finicky and expensive to repair, so that farting near the car totals it.

As far as I know, over there you have huge amount of surplus PV production, to the point of it being a "problem", with zero value.

Er, not in my experience.

Polestar 2 insurance was £450 for the year.
ID.3 was £550.
Comparable Golf was £520.

They aren't more expensive unless you buy a Tesla.
I don't have a clean record either (though all non-fault incidents; two rear-end collisions in three years.)
 

Online Siwastaja

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Re: Tesla & other EV's and hybrids are dangerous!
« Reply #139 on: April 09, 2026, 06:39:16 pm »
Er, not in my experience.

Polestar 2 insurance was £450 for the year.
ID.3 was £550.
Comparable Golf was £520.

They aren't more expensive unless you buy a Tesla.
I don't have a clean record either (though all non-fault incidents; two rear-end collisions in three years.)

Insurance politics vary greatly between countries. Over here "EV premium" is significant. We also have pigouvian "EV tax". But at least electricity vs. fuel cost difference is huge in favor of electricity.
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: Tesla & other EV's and hybrids are dangerous!
« Reply #140 on: April 09, 2026, 10:55:44 pm »
Nissan leaf regen and braking at low speeds is rough, I don't know what they are talking about. Maybe its superior in concept but in execution it just feels bad. https://www.speakev.com/threads/brake-pedal-goes-to-the-floor.14149/

That's just a broken car, e.g. air in the system, brake cylinder failure etc. Nothing to do with "rough regen".

The mechanical brake system has changed very little during last 50 years, and differences between cars are small. This is also why EV manufacturers don't want to put too much regen functionality into the brake pedal - it's hard to fine-tune exactly to interact in optimum way.

Its a very common issue. First gen Leaf attempts to blend regen and regular braking via software which is tough (even tesla was tweaking similar things recently).
But apparently there is a cal routine that I didn't try, I will give it a shot, hopefully will fix it: https://www.reddit.com/r/leaf/comments/o569ar/some_nissan_leaf_owners_say_their_leaf_brakes/
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Offline paulca

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Re: Tesla & other EV's and hybrids are dangerous!
« Reply #141 on: April 11, 2026, 08:40:06 am »
I drove a few Toyota hybrids (service centre loan cars).  The regen braking was probably the first, other than it being an automatic, thing I needed to get used to. 

This was 2018 maybe?  Yaris and Auris.  In traffic, when you put your foot on the brake instinctively, for a fraction of a second everything was normal, then regen load kicked in and suddenly you were slowing too quickly and had to modulate the brake pressure off.  If you had to stop braking and start again, this cycle would repeat.  When you got down to about 3mph, usually approaching a car length of two from the car in front, regen would instantly cut out, no decay, no warning, no feedback, it would just cut out it's part of the brake load, requiring you reapply move force for the mechanical brakes again.

Honestly, after a few days my feet just adapted it out and got used to it.

EDIT:  The best bit for me is when they give me my car back.  GT86.  A yaris feels like a small van to me.  The seat is low, bucketed, legs out nearly straight, the car rises around you, you sit down in it in the floor.  The steering is heavy and sensitive, controls responsive, if you ask the car to jerk violently it will do so.  No "smoothing out the driver inputs".

Part of me toys with the idea of putting a Nissian Leaf or Renault Zoe motor and battery in it.... put through the clutch and gear box!  That would be a dangerous EV for a whole different class of reason.  Instant flat torque in all 6 gears.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2026, 08:46:10 am by paulca »
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Offline tom66

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Re: Tesla & other EV's and hybrids are dangerous!
« Reply #142 on: April 11, 2026, 09:21:45 am »
Part of me toys with the idea of putting a Nissian Leaf or Renault Zoe motor and battery in it.... put through the clutch and gear box!  That would be a dangerous EV for a whole different class of reason.  Instant flat torque in all 6 gears.

Tesla tried making a two-speed manual for the first gen Roadster; it shredded the gearbox.  Most people who do EV conversions but leave manual gearboxes in tend to keep the gearbox in 3rd or 4th, sometimes using a higher gear for highway efficiency.  You will probably find the equivalent of first gear will just give you constant wheel spin and shred tyres.

One interesting effect is you don't need the clutch itself, even to shift gears.  The motor can be programmed to go open circuit when you press the clutch pedal, which allows it to be spun up to whatever speed the gearbox requires.  This is a feature of many DIY/EV conversion motor drivers.
 
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Online Marco

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Re: Tesla & other EV's and hybrids are dangerous!
« Reply #143 on: April 11, 2026, 01:01:58 pm »
Do EV's generally already do active regenerative breaking? (ie. applying voltage to the motor from the battery, giving it more to push against to keep break force consistent regardless of speed, not just using it as a normal generator.)
« Last Edit: April 11, 2026, 01:04:15 pm by Marco »
 

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Re: Tesla & other EV's and hybrids are dangerous!
« Reply #144 on: April 11, 2026, 01:09:51 pm »
Do EV's generally already do active regenerative breaking? (ie. applying voltage to the motor from the battery, giving it more to push against to keep break force consistent regardless of speed, not just using it as a normal generator.)
Only the ones that use induction motors. The permanent magnet motors generate their own voltage and applying voltage from an external source will not increase the amount of power that can be regenerated.
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Online Marco

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Re: Tesla & other EV's and hybrids are dangerous!
« Reply #145 on: April 11, 2026, 01:47:13 pm »
Shouldn't any EV capable of wheel spin on acceleration be capable of breaking hard enough to lock the wheels (or spin them the other way even) on the electric motor alone?
 

Offline paulca

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Re: Tesla & other EV's and hybrids are dangerous!
« Reply #146 on: April 11, 2026, 02:01:17 pm »
Shouldn't any EV capable of wheel spin on acceleration be capable of breaking hard enough to lock the wheels (or spin them the other way even) on the electric motor alone?

Having owned some fairly fast RC cars with fully reversible motors... the absolute hilarity of hitting full reverse while travelling forwards and having differentials would be funny to see in the real world.  At a track with a safety fence. 

The cars tend to do a very harsh 180 rotation and drive backwards or flip over upside down.  Those RC cars have torque to wegiht ratios that make F1 cars look like bicycles though.
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Online Marco

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Re: Tesla & other EV's and hybrids are dangerous!
« Reply #147 on: April 11, 2026, 02:08:51 pm »
I guess lower power EV's just lack the torque to do regenerative breaking to that extent, googling suggests putting a capacitor in series with the battery so it can temporarily generate more torque. The cost of needing higher voltage switches is not a small one though.
 

Online Siwastaja

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Re: Tesla & other EV's and hybrids are dangerous!
« Reply #148 on: April 11, 2026, 02:22:43 pm »
I guess lower power EV's just lack the torque to do regenerative breaking to that extent, googling suggests putting a capacitor in series with the battery so it can temporarily generate more torque. The cost of needing higher voltage switches is not a small one though.

You can get google to confirm any word salad mumbo jumbo you want, but no, regenerative braking is not limited by torque capability of the motor but rather, traction doing that safely in the usual 2WD or even 4WD configurations through the differential(s), and no, putting capacitor in series with the battery does not help generate more torque, it completely disables the vehicle from doing anything.

You can smoothly transition from power-generating regen to power-consuming holding torque generation (in BLDC motors) if you so wish. But if you never use the mechanical brakes for anything, they rust and seize. They exist in every corner of the car for good reasons, so better utilize them to hold the car, and give occasional use to keep them operational.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2026, 02:33:15 pm by Siwastaja »
 

Online Marco

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Re: Tesla & other EV's and hybrids are dangerous!
« Reply #149 on: April 11, 2026, 03:51:31 pm »
The capacitor is to build up a higher voltage. It's not in the circuit permanently, you can discharge it mostly losslessly to keep it at a given level.

https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0825/7/4/84

I was wondering why by necessity EVs would lose regenerative breaking power at low speed, as is so often said.
 


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